Training in one form

[taichi4eva]

In an interview, Leung Shum, an Eagle Claw Master, wrote:

"In Hong Kong there is a man who worked on Tam Tui for 40 years, and nothing else. He is the Tam Tui King. Everything in his Tam Tui is perfect. He even fights (and wins) with this."

There is something inspiring about specializing in one form. Any comments? Makes me kinda wonder if whole styles could be
distilled into just single forms.

Tan Tui
Wing Chun- Siu Nim Tao
Hung Gar- Tiger Crane Form
White Crane- San Zhan Quan


P.S. I was just wondering, just how popular is Tan Tui in Hong Kong? I heard it was once part of the school curriculum, like baseball is over in the States.

[PaiLumDreamer]

Well, how I think of it is this:
If you specialize in one thing, of course you will be good: in that one thing. Why limit yourself? Working hard on multiple "forms" will only help you, not limit you.

[Judge Pen]

If you work hard then if you just focus on one form or several forms then you will be good at what you do. Just pick what you like and do it, but many people get bored and look for something new and never spend enough time on one thing to get really good at it. Form collecting is a prime example of this.

[MasterKiller]

Most fighters are known for two or three techniques that they use well on a consistent basis. You don't need 100 techniques to be a godd fighter, or even a great one. A couple of punches, a couple of kicks, a couple of throws....that's all most fighters need.

[David Jamieson]

forms in any system, if it is a true system will progressively build one to the next.

From the beginning forms to the most advanced forms in a given style, you work towards gaining knowledge of the techniques of a style and their application.

as you progress through the lower forms, your skill increases and your ability to absorb the more complex tactics grows too.

so, the "one" form you will derive from a system is your form and your expression of a complete art as opposed to a single form comprised of only some fo the techniques in a style.

Tan Tui as given in the example is one of those rare birds where the one form is the style. Some styles use thios form within the entirety of the system though.

But you'll notice that in the style wing chun for instance that each form adds to the last form you learned by given you progressive growth in the overall expression of the style.

anyway...

cheers

[Shaolinlueb]

Originally posted by taichi4eva
In an interview, Leung Shum, an Eagle Claw Master, wrote:

"In Hong Kong there is a man who worked on Tam Tui for 40 years, and nothing else. He is the Tam Tui King. Everything in his Tam Tui is perfect. He even fights (and wins) with this."

There is something inspiring about specializing in one form. Any comments? Makes me kinda wonder if whole styles could be
distilled into just single forms.

Tan Tui
Wing Chun- Siu Nim Tao
Hung Gar- Tiger Crane Form
White Crane- San Zhan Quan


P.S. I was just wondering, just how popular is Tan Tui in Hong Kong? I heard it was once part of the school curriculum, like baseball is over in the States.


now thats a little too old shcool. im sued to hearing working a year or three on a form to get it perfect. but 40? hmm well he is the king of it no doubt.

[GeneChing]

This goes back to that old, "I'm not afriad of your thousand kicks, I'm afraid of the one kick you've practiced a thousand times" principle. At one point, I had a good 50+ forms. Sum total, I've probably learned twice that, but I've never had them all ready-to-go at the same time. Realistically, now, there's less than a dozen forms that I work and only three that I really work. I don't have the time to maintain 50 forms, not like when I was younger. And even when I was younger, I only worked hard on some of the, so many were lost. Now I'm more interested in energies, loose techniques if you will. But I still love a good form to get the juices flowing.

A good form is really dense and you can extract info from it for years. That was one of the points I was trying to allude to in my last Shaolin Trips (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/ezine/article.php?article=512) installment. For example, Tantui is a great one. Or almost any of the long Tai Chi forms. I'm particularly fond of Xiaohong. I've been working that form for 8 years now, off and on, and I still bring up new treasures every once in a while.

Can you perfect a form in a year of three? Depends how you define perfection. If you set your mark low, sure, a year of three is enough. If you set it high, one lifetime isn't enough. In fact, I've pretty much given up trying to be perfect in this lifetime. I'm just trying to to the preparatory work for the next lifetime. ;)

[Royal Dragon]

I'm at a point where I'm saying, If you want to collect forms, collect them on video. Practice one to maybe three and that's it. There's too much in those to ever really get them fully perfected.

Right now, I only work Wu Bu Chuan, The Shaolin Tai Tzu Quan, and another I'm not supposed to have from one of the Southern Tai Tzu Branches.

[Shaolinlueb]

Originally posted by GeneChing
Can you perfect a form in a year of three? Depends how you define perfection. If you set your mark low, sure, a year of three is enough. If you set it high, one lifetime isn't enough. In fact, I've pretty much given up trying to be perfect in this lifetime. I'm just trying to to the preparatory work for the next lifetime. ;)

my whole point on the one form, I dont know many schools that teach you 1 form and no others for a year until this one is good. i learned that 5 stance form (with a couple more moves like 3 more stances.) thats all i did for 6-8 months for forms in my school, along with lots of stance work and jeibegong.
then so on and so fourth. i dont want to sound like im bragging. but my foundation is pretty **** good and i have a lot easier time picking up forms. depending on how you trian too gene, you can have a form looking real good without a low mark. Gene if you are ever in mass, look me up I would love to give you a tour of western mass and the kung fu out here.

[TenTigers]

Frankly, it's ben done:
Tai Chi Ch'uan-Yang Family, Chen Jia has Pow Chuei
Some schools of Ba Kua
Some schools of Hsing-yi
I would choose Ng Ying, or Sup Ying over Fu Hok-they are more well rounded and complete and contain everything found in Fu-Hok, but I sure would miss Gung Ji, and Tiet sien kuen
sanchin kata, or saam jien kuen all Fukien based short hand and Karate
sam bo gin Southern Mantis
gow bu toi-Bak Mei (some might say Jik bo kuen has it all, others argue that it's just an exercise)
Kushanku-all karate except for Fukien based
I would scrap the empty hand Wing Chun sets and keep the wooden man-not really, but in this scenerio, so don't all start jumpin all over me, you crazy Wing Chunners!
Bung-Bo for Preying Mantis,it being Wong Long's original set
Kushanku-
cause Korea copied Karate and called it TKD
Kanku-Dai-'cause Hwang Kee uses Shotokan Katas to form Tang Soo Do
Choy Li Fut could be summed up in Sup Ji Kau Da-from what I've been told
lmkfmdc is the one to ask, but I was also told chut yat bo contains most of Lama P'ai's fundamentals
Moor kiu-is said to be Loong Ying's opus
Hong Kuen is Ying Jow P'ai's opus, or is it Lien Kuen?
anyway, it contains all the locks.
you don't need to learn any Monkey forms, just san-da (kidding!)
Pekita Tirsia has a set containing 36 strikes
Joi Bot Sien contains locks, throws,vital points and chi-gung
Traditional Southern Lion Dancing (at least in our school) has punches, kicks, joitlocks, power generation, throws, so that counts
If you break apart your major weapon sets, such as Fu Mei Dahn-dao, or Ng Long Bot Gwa-Gwun, there are numerous empty hand applications
you take every move from football-kicks, punts, tackles, blocks, throwing,etc and you will have a pretty complete martial art as well,.
now bowling....ok, this one might take some time....first , the shoes.....

I'm sorry. I was alone in the office, had a few brews, it was late.....

[Shaolinlueb]

Gene i was talking to NP about this thread, and he cleared up to me what you meant. i get it now :D

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
Most fighters are known for two or three techniques that they use well on a consistent basis. You don't need 100 techniques to be a godd fighter, or even a great one. A couple of punches, a couple of kicks, a couple of throws....that's all most fighters need.

exactly. you may have and continue to learn others, but only rarely will you pick something up that you work into your first call ( or subconcious) repetoire...it's not until you fight someone equally or better skilled that the rest of the cache even needs to be thought about...................

Ps. as far as tam/tan tui goes.legend is that if you learn this form, you'll never need another.........................dong.......underst and the statement.........

[cerebus]

It's true that Tan Tui can be (and has been) practiced as a system in and of itself. It has strikes, kicks, blocks, evasion, footwork, joint locks, sweeps, throws & takedowns.

It's easy enough to learn. The hard part is training the applications until they're second nature and you can fight full-contact with them.

It's also one of the best forms I've encountered for physical conditioning. Practice it several times each day for the rest of your life and you'll be one healthy, strong old f a r t (barring accidents or disease).

I could easily devote myself to just Tan Tui but I'd feel bad about abandoning all the awesome stuff I've learned over the past year and a half, and continue to learn (Hsing-I & Bagua).

[GeneChing]

Gene i was talking to NP about this thread, and he cleared up to me what you meant. i get it now Maybe I should talk to NP. Half the time I have no idea what I meant. ;)

Actually, I think there are a lot of strategies for form practice. To have a lot of forms gives your tremendous diversity. When I used to maintain all my Bak Sil Lum forms, it did great things for my body and mind. Now, frankly, I don't have the time to maintain them all. My practice has to be more economical, so I just focus on a few that I like, ones I find rewarding. When I used to teach BSL forms, I focused a lot on details, posture and such. Now, I'm training at a O-Mei school, and the strategy is the throw out lots of short forms rapidly. We learn a four-line form in a week. Then we move on. More time is spent on sparring drills and such, the forms are more superfluous. It works for me now, since I already have a lot of forms, more than I can practice, but it wouldn't have worked for me before. Teaching at that speed, there isn't so much focus on the details. But revealling the details can coddle the student. A few students have followed me from BSL to O-mei, and some have mentioned that they can't adjust. They never learned the 'eye'. They can't see the move, because they used to having it handed over to them. So what's better, detailed analysis or quick transmission? Lots of forms or just a few? It really depends on the situation.

Forms are just tools - you can use tools to uncap your beer or to lay the foundation of your house. In either case, they're very useful.

[norther practitioner]

I only charge $7.99/first min.
$.99/each additional min. Gene... ;)


Forms for concepts vs. a catalogue of moves.

I was explaining the difference between practicing a form for a year, and looking **** good doing it, and practicing a form for 10 years, and knowing that there is a palm here, that can be used in a lot of situations, as any number of techniques, etc.

[Shaolinlueb]

Originally posted by GeneChing
A few students have followed me from BSL to O-mei, and some have mentioned that they can't adjust. They never learned the 'eye'. They can't see the move, because they used to having it handed over to them. So what's better, detailed analysis or quick transmission? Lots of forms or just a few? It really depends on the situation.


so you got the eye too? im slowly getting it. I like the eye. some stuff though you can show me over and over and i still cant get it :o

[GeneChing]

np: So that's what I meant. I thought I was just trying to get people to buy more at MartialArtsMart (http://www.martialartsmart.com) ;)

FWIW, I think I had the strongest eye when I was maintaining a lot of forms. I could pick up things really quickly back then, learn forms after only a few showings. So that might be an argument for more forms, but also, I was writing a lot of video scripts then, so I had to hold movements in my head a lot. Mind you, I'm using the term 'eye' to mean being able to see the move, not necessarily emulate it. Often, I see classmates who can't even catch whether the move is in horse or bow stance. That's a bad eye. Recently, I noticed that my sifu did this little coil in his bow in a particular sequence, not a true text book bow, so he could add more power to the next move. That's kind of hard to explain, but that's a good eye.

[Shaolinlueb]

Originally posted by GeneChing
np: So that's what I meant. I thought I was just trying to get people to buy more at MartialArtsMart (http://www.martialartsmart.com) ;)

FWIW, I think I had the strongest eye when I was maintaining a lot of forms. I could pick up things really quickly back then, learn forms after only a few showings. So that might be an argument for more forms, but also, I was writing a lot of video scripts then, so I had to hold movements in my head a lot. Mind you, I'm using the term 'eye' to mean being able to see the move, not necessarily emulate it. Often, I see classmates who can't even catch whether the move is in horse or bow stance. That's a bad eye. Recently, I noticed that my sifu did this little coil in his bow in a particular sequence, not a true text book bow, so he could add more power to the next move. That's kind of hard to explain, but that's a good eye.

I get what you're saying with the eye. My sifu is trying to show me it. showing me things 1 or 2 times then doing it over. see what i miss for detail, see how much i pick up. But I understand where you come from. Did you stress a lot of foundation work back in the day Gene when you learned a lot of different forms?

[GeneChing]

Personally, I don't think you can do much of anything with a lot of foundation work. To be honest, I didn't spend the hours and hours in horse stance all the time, watching incense sticks burn down asn such, like some people claim (and some may have done). But I certainly did spend time in horse, etc. in those days. You'd think I'd have more to show for it now :p

There's a lot to the eye. A keen eye is crucial, because if you can't see it, you can't do it (unless you're Zatoichi or something). That applies in both form and fighting. You need to be able to see it to emulate it. And you need to be able to see it coming, if you're not going to get hit by it.

[Shaolinlueb]

Originally posted by GeneChing
Personally, I don't think you can do much of anything with a lot of foundation work. To be honest, I didn't spend the hours and hours in horse stance all the time, watching incense sticks burn down asn such, like some people claim (and some may have done). But I certainly did spend time in horse, etc. in those days. You'd think I'd have more to show for it now :p

There's a lot to the eye. A keen eye is crucial, because if you can't see it, you can't do it (unless you're Zatoichi or something). That applies in both form and fighting. You need to be able to see it to emulate it. And you need to be able to see it coming, if you're not going to get hit by it.

so i take it you dont miss the days of the horse stance holding? :(

[GeneChing]

...I only miss it when I'm asked to do it again now. But it was always so :p

[Scythefall]

I've read many times about fighters that practiced one form as their discipline. I think it is misleading because I've never seen an article explain the rest of that fighter's training day. I'd like to see the breakdown of the training a monk that only practices the form Shao-Hong Chuan does. Everything from the basics and stretching to the different terrain and environment training. I don't think it is a stretch to utilize one form as your style even with an 8+ hour day of training.

Tan Tui was my bread and butter leg strengthening for a long time and just seeing it mentioned in this article, I miss the practice, so I guess I'll be working on that again really soon.

I never knew 50 forms at any one time, but I have forgotten many of the last year. I think that's where just keeping a journal and maybe a little beforehand planning for a day's training is needed. There are some forms that I just cannot forget. They've been done thousands of times and they'll be with me forever. As a matter of fact, i revisited an old Longfist form and was amazed that not only had I not forgotten it, I was better at it than the last time I had done 4 months ago.

Anyway, the "eye" is something I never thought about. I definitely had the "eye" in Northern Shaolin at my old school. I understood movements. The Shaolin I'm learning from Shi Xingwei is something else though. The footwork is so fast! I sit there with the Chris Tucker "Which one of you just kicked me?" looks when he first shows some of it. It's good though, because once the new technique sticks in your mind, your body can begin to learn it.

That's the thing with the single form masters. Who is to say what forms they actually know. It's like Gene was saying with his multitude of forms. He had a lot of them, but by now he practices the ones that he "feels" and work for him. I'm sure the single form masters went far into other branches of the martial styles before saying "This is what I will practice"

[htowndragon]

u can probably do well with one technique and know all the variations and changes of that move (sorry im a bagua-er)

these people had complete systems, but emphasized one technique.

examples-
liu feng chun, dong hai chuan's disciple, concentrated on the single palm change. everytime someone came in, he would strike or throw the person out. the person would either fly out or fall down. or both.

guo yun shen-
"ban bu beng chuan" guo yun shen. u know about him right?

one of my sifu's more current teachers xu chen lao shi, wang zhuang fei's disciple. gong bao tian bagua. (my sifu was a disciple of gong bao zhai in taiwan). he had a student who only trained two techniques, single palm change and another technique, not sure what it was. he won some high profile lei tai match in china.

one beijing san shou champion was messing with xu lao shi's girlfriend apparently. iron palm (pi zhang was the technique he used i think, splitting palm) to the side of the champions head, that guy had a concussion and blood was coming out of his ears. oops. (that san shou guy had no idea a small old chinese man had gong fu)

just a few examples.

[blooming lotus]

I've seen some really "flowery " performance jazz while in china, and 've thought what's the point???..............but recently I've realised that while performance aside you'd never really use a wholeform in the ring or on the street.......even performance gongfu forms have individual apps adaptable to any individuals aresenal and flower aside, is therefore worth learning............at the end of the day, because of combat psychology , mauritity, experience, fitness and so on, .............no -one has an identical practical style nor form...................rarely will 2 folks perform the same...............

think about that and nurture your individual player is my my advice ;)







cheres all


BL