Kung Fu and the UFC, which is more reality based?

[Sim Koning]

I was reading the official rules for the UFC the other day and I found it interesting how the rules of the UFC prohibit some of the most important and effective techniques found in the Chinese martial arts, techniques that also happen to be common in a real life and death conflict. This leaves me to wonder, which is really the more “reality based” art? In many magazines and websites, UFC related martial arts are being sold as being more realistic and effective than the traditional arts such as karate and kung fu. Many people are starting to look at traditional styles as being antiquated and as something that does not work in real life. The fact that very few if any kung fu stylists compete in the UFC does not help the situation. Before I continue, let’s look at the rules.



UFC rules, as approved by the Nevada State Athletic Commission – July 23, 2001

Weight classes:

Lightweight – over 145 lbs. to 155 lbs.
Welterweight – over 155 lbs. to 170 lbs.
Middleweight – over 170 lbs. to 185 lbs.
Light Heavyweight – over 185 lbs. to 205 lbs.
Heavyweight – over 205 lbs. to 265 lbs.
Bout duration:

All non-championship bouts shall be three rounds.
All championship bouts shall be five rounds.
Rounds will be five minutes in duration, with a one minute.
A one-minute rest period will occur between each round
Fouls:

Butting with the head.
Eye gouging of any kind. (this prohibits any kind of advanced eye gouging techniques found in most Chinese styles)
Biting.
Hair pulling. (again prohibits some of the most lethal techniques such as twisting or breaking the neck)
Fish hooking. (prohibits many effective eagle and tiger claw techniques)
Groin attacks of any kind. (prohibits many effective testicle kicks found in karate and kung fu)
Putting a finger into any orifice or into any cut or laceration on an opponent.
Small joint manipulation. (prohibits a vast array of chin na techniques)
Striking to the spine or the back of the head.
Striking downward using the point of the elbow.
Throat strikes of any kind, including, without limitation, grabbing the trachea. (again, this prohibits a large number of techniques, some of which are very important in Chinese martial arts, such as the fok sau of wing chun, or the eagle claw techniques used on the throat)
Clawing, pinching or twisting the flesh. (this would render most tiger and eagle claw styles useless)
Grabbing the clavicle. (a very effective chin na technique)
Kicking the head of a grounded opponent.
Kneeing the head of a grounded opponent.
Stomping a grounded opponent.
Kicking to the kidney with the heel.
Spiking an opponent to the canvas on his head or neck.
Throwing an opponent out of the ring or fenced area.
Holding the shorts or gloves of an opponent.
Spitting at an opponent.
Engaging in an unsportsmanlike conduct that causes an injury to an opponent.
Holding the ropes or the fence.
Using abusive language in the ring or fenced area.
Attacking an opponent on or during the break.
Attacking an opponent who is under the care of the referee.
Attacking an opponent after the bell has sounded the end of the period of unarmed combat.
Flagrantly disregarding the instructions of the referee.
Timidity, including, without limitation, avoiding contact with an opponent, intentionally or consistently dropping the mouthpiece or faking an injury.
Interference by the corner.
Throwing in the towel during competition.
Ways to win:

Submission by:
Physical tap out.
Verbal tap out.
Technical knockout by the referee stopping the contest.
Decision via the scorecards, including:
Unanimous decision.
Split decision.
Majority decision.
Draw, including:
Unanimous draw.
Majority draw.
Split draw.
Technical decision.
Technical draw.
Disqualification.
Forfeit.
No contest.

As you can see by reading this, half the techniques that are found in traditional martial arts are prohibited, not because they do not work, but because they are too effective in damaging the opponent and removing his ability to fight, often causing permanent or at least crippling injury. Despite all this, UFC related styles are sold as “real fighting” and traditional styles are mocked and viewed as systems containing mostly useless techniques. The fact that many traditional styles lost in these tournaments makes things worse, leading high school wrestlers to believe they could beat any black belt (I ran into this a few times). Yet how can you expect a fighter to win when the focus of his martial art is almost completely prohibited. So, as far as I’m concerned, the traditional arts of China remain the more reality based fighting art.

[Dark Knight]

NHBfighting has rules, but what makes them effective, and more effective than what most people in the martial arts are doing is they train as they fight.

How do you know your techniques will work? In NHB they do them all the time and see the results.

training methods is what makes the difference. People who criticize traditional Martial Arts see what the majority of schools are doing here in the US. Not training realistically.

Its very common to see a boxer or wrestler beat a traditional MA because of training. If you took a MA, and fought heavy contact a couple times a week, broke out training equipment to work on timing, speed and power and fought different styles (not point sparring) you will become an effective fighter.

If you want to see how effective you are, ask a guy who trains for NHB to fight (There are many around the country). Tell him you want to be allowed to claw, poke,... and he will prob let you. they know from experience that theories sound good, but dont often work.

[Ray Pina]

Before I start, let me say I have studied Isshin-Ryu my entire youth (4 to 12), Hung Gar, Wing Chun, S Mantis and now E-Chuan (Internal Martial arts) -- I love traditional Asian Martial Arts.

With that said, how many **** rules does a Kung Fu tournament have? It has all of the rules as UFC + You can't elbow in most of them .... you are covered from head to toe like the **** Michelin man ... you usualy can't take the guy down and if you do the action is usually stopped .... the action is stopped in the guy runs out of the ring .... the action is stopped if you clinch, ect, ect, ect.

So which is a better venue to demonstrate that you can handle yourself. I am trying to get to a level to fight in one of these events.

On the rare occassion that one of my hung gar or wing chun friends do want to spar -- and boy do we have to tone it down -- they have NEVER pulled off any crane techniques or tiger claws to my face, ect.

Why? Because those are simply strikes, they lack a delivery system. They lack the basic strong structure, the basic shielding, the basic stopping of the other guy to get in there and land a solid blow.

All of this is in their respective arts, but they don't train the basics at full blast. I don't need to stick my fingers into your eyes and grab the back of your face skull and pull it down. I need to jam you up and feed you a solid strike you can do nothing about. When I can do that, than I can hit you anyway I want to.

But when you just say, this is too dangerous, let's do it in the air 1,000 times ... yes, you make the strike smooth. But you lack the tools to get it in, and more importantly, you're too busy $hitting your pants about the familiar situation of the other guy trying to beat your head.

I'm often embarrassed by my Kung Fu cousins. We need to stop making excuses and start making examples. Get out there and do it! Join the UFC and get disqualified. Make Tito grab his eyeball off the floor in front of everybody. How famous do you think you will become?

[Dark Knight]

dito

[Tak]

I always wondered why high-profile NHB events have weight classes. Well, actually I know why, but it would be very interesting (to me) to see some "open weight" competitions.

[Sim Koning]

I think some of you are making assumptions about how I and other people at schools like ours train. We train in San Shou and our school has full contact sparring and fighting, with punches, kicks, elbows, knees, throws, sweeps and joints locks. In fact this should be a major part of the training in any traditional kung fu/wu shu school. Unfortunately I think I’ve already been stereotyped as being one of those guys that does nothing but forms and point sparring and thinks my techniques will work against anybody because they attack vulnerable targets. I believe very strongly that one has to engage in full contact sparring to learn how to actually deliver a blow. You have boxing gloves on, but as was already said, it’s the delivery of the blow, not the actual formation of the hand that matters.

Now what I was trying to say is that there are *a few* kung fu schools out there that engage in this kind of training AND they train in the traditional techniques of self defense that are very useful in self defense and real life conflicts. Because the fact is, in a real fight there are unpleasant things like eye gouging, biting, pulling and tearing on the ear lobe etc... Now if a traditional martial arts school trains in full contact fighting with all aspects of combat in mind, as well as training in techniques that are strictly prohibited in any fight sport, how can one say that the traditional style is less “reality based” than many of the sport oriented NHB systems out there.

Here is a fight clip of one of our instructors fighting in san shou.
http://chanskungfu.com/videos/danda.wmv

[Ray Pina]

Couldn't load the clip, but I'll try later from home.

Didn't mean to label or judge you, just understand the question and apply the "if it looks like a duck and sounds like a duck" theory and types of posts that are on this board.

But if you guys are fighting and competing than you know the answer already. The rules aren't there to make it harder for any one style, they are their to keep us from maiming and paralyzing each other, maybe even kill someone with a bad neck crank, ect.

So there is a core set up: kick, punch, throw, grapple, lock, submit.... every style should have that.

You admitted that the skill lies in landing that clean strike, so there you have it. Everybody knows how to grab someone's balls, poke their eyes and rip at their throat .... these are no Kung Fu secrets .... girls are pulling each others hair out there.

Its just the tone of these posts always sound like, "These NHB matches are prejudice against Kung Fu because we can't use ...."

Hell, allow full kicking, punching, elbows, knees, throwing, locking, the breaking of limbs, the non stop action until someone is KOd and ONLY invite kung fu guys .... I'm guessing it would be a small card .... forget adding the "other" stuff.

[LEGEND]

"So, as far as I’m concerned, the traditional arts of China remain the more reality based fighting art."

As long as u train against a resisting opponent then u're GOOD. The joke is purely on the skools that do not train with resisting opponents and kick and punch the AIR.

[Shao Lin Long]

First of all, UFC is not REAL fighting, its more of a sport. All traditional martial arts(or almost all) were developed for maiming or killing an opponent, so wether u like it or not the mayority of their techniques ARE prohibited in this type of competition. Their sole aim is to try to disable an opponent as fast as you can because they were developed in times were war was common and were society wasn't bound by any laws so you had to practice this techniques to defend your life even if it meant taking the one of another person. An other point,in traditional martial arts(at least kung fu) they don't teach you to trade blows with ones opponents until one drops, they teach you to block and dodge until you see an opening, then hit or grab or pull one of the opponents vital points to take him down so in matches of boxing and kickboxing alike they are also limited, not only because alot of the techniques are prohinited because they may MAIM or KILL, but because they also were gloves and this limits the practitioner not only to normal punches(no other punches like phoenix eye, no other hand attack like the palm, and no grabs and hold) but it also reduces the ability to knockdown an opponent with little blows to weak parts(as trained in traditional martial arts) because the gloves reduce the impact. So traditional martial arts may not do well in those competition but in real fighting, where everything counts, Traditional martial arts are very effective. I'm not saying that MMA don't work on the street(because they also really work on the streets) but only resalting that TMA fair better on the streets than in a ring or a competition. This is were the "sport fighting" aspect of the TMA comes in, as in for example: kung fu= San shou karate=kickboxing.

We really should look back at why this types of "sport fighting" arts emerged: because in now a days confrotations on the streets are rare(well in most places), so to keep the fighting aspects of the martial arts alive they were developed(but in a sport way: with rules and restrictions). I'm also aware that a lot of
kwons or dojos(or whatever) aren't teaching these techniques well and they only teach form after form after form. This is what also causes bad reputation for TMA. But traditional martial arts taught the right way(which may be rare to find now a days), teaching not only forms but their combat aplications and practicing them with parteners endlessly to engraved them in the practitioners' muscles memory, are extremely deadly.

I don't think any of you would want to fight hand to hand a Shaolin monk or a Samurai(if they were still alive) in the street.

[Sim Koning]

But if you guys are fighting and competing than you know the answer already. The rules aren't there to make it harder for any one style, they are their to keep us from maiming and paralyzing each other, maybe even kill someone with a bad neck crank, ect.

While I agree with this for the most part, there are some techniques that are prohibited that would not cause serious injury, but would make things a little harder for a ground fighter and a little easier for a traditionalist. For example, clawing or twisting the flesh is not allowed; nor is grabbing the collar bone allowed. I’ll give an example of how this would help a kung fu stylist on the ground.

A few years back, back when I only had two years of training and a purple sash, I was often challenged by a wrestler that I worked with. Thanks to events like the UFC he got it in his head that a wrestler could beat any traditional martial artist no problem. One day he walked up to me and put me in a tie up and then a standing headlock, I hadn’t had any grappling training so I couldn’t really do anything. This embarrassed me and ****ed me off, so a few days later when he started taunting me again, I told him that he could try to put me in a headlock again, or any submission hold, and I would still beat him without punching or kicking him. He agreed and he tried to put me in headlock and throw me. I slipped out of it the first few times before he finally threw me to the ground by my neck. He was laying on top my chest while cranking my neck forward so I couldn’t breathe. He asked, “Do you give up?” remembering my tiger claw techniques, I simply reached over and grabbed his side with a clawing motion and squeezed as hard as I could while twisting violently, the poor guy literally started to scream and begged me to stop. I actually let him put me in a slightly different position afterwards, this time I couldn’t reach his side, so I reached up and grabbed him behind the neck with my left hand, again he started to scream while leaning his head back in pain, so I grabbed his trachea with my other hand and demonstrated how I could simply crush his windpipe. He never tried to wrestle with me again.

Now every thing I did in that situation would have been against the rules in the UFC, techniques that would normally compensate for a lack of ground skill are not allowed at all, thus making the ground fighter’s game a little easier.

[Shao Lin Long]

Originally posted by Evolution Fist
But if you guys are fighting and competing than you know the answer already. The rules aren't there to make it harder for any one style, they are their to keep us from maiming and paralyzing each other, maybe even kill someone with a bad neck crank, ect.

THis is the exact reason for why TMA don't fare well in this competitons. Thats their purpose(when you find yourself in a fight), killing,maiming and/or momentarily or permantely disableling ones opponents, in order to save ones life. This competitions are "safe", and are directed to see who is still standing of the two people competing after they brutalize themselves with hit and chokes. This is not the way of fighting(well at least real fighting).

I have heard that Sifu Shi Yan Ming's philosophy on fighting is very simple: who ever strikes first wins the fight. So Strike First and Strike Hard.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Shao Lin Long
First of all, UFC is not REAL fighting, its more of a sport. All traditional martial arts(or almost all) were developed for maiming or killing an opponent, so wether u like it or not the mayority of their techniques ARE prohibited in this type of competition.

If a person can't use the principles of their art without using "lethal" techniques, I question their training. A grappler can take you down, mount you and eye gouge you, or fish hook you from a rear mount, etc. but can also operate outside of that environment.

the majority of tma techniques are NOT limited, only a small handfull of them.

Their sole aim is to try to disable an opponent as fast as you can because they were developed in times were war was common and were society wasn't bound by any laws so you had to practice this techniques to defend your life even if it meant taking the one of another person.

1. any MA in a fight wants to take you out ASAP

2. most martial arts were NOT designed for use in wars and battles. they were village styles, family styles, etc. used for protection.


An other point,in traditional martial arts(at least kung fu) they don't teach you to trade blows with ones opponents until one drops, they teach you to block and dodge until you see an opening, then hit or grab or pull one of the opponents vital points to take him down so in matches of boxing and kickboxing alike they are also limited, not only because alot of the techniques are prohinited because they may MAIM or KILL, but because they also were gloves and this limits the practitioner not only to normal punches(no other punches like phoenix eye, no other hand attack like the palm, and no grabs and hold) but it also reduces the ability to knockdown an opponent with little blows to weak parts(as trained in traditional martial arts) because the gloves reduce the impact. So traditional martial arts may not do well in those competition but in real fighting, where everything counts, Traditional martial arts are very effective.

strikes like the phoenix eye are not prohibited in MMA and you can do them with mma gloves on. the gloves allow for hand dexterity, and you can grab, lock, phoenix eye, etc.


I'm not saying that MMA don't work on the street(because they also really work on the streets) but only resalting that TMA fair better on the streets than in a ring or a competition.

nonsense.

We really should look back at why this types of "sport fighting" arts emerged: because in now a days confrotations on the streets are rare(well in most places), so to keep the fighting aspects of the martial arts alive they were developed(but in a sport way: with rules and restrictions).


this is true. a great example is judo. During the meiji, after the tokugawa, there was no need for soldiers, and the use of the sword was banned.

part two to the story though - kano and his judo guys whooped up on the jujutsu guys. why? because the judo format allowed them to spar.

But traditional martial arts taught the right way(which may be rare to find now a days), teaching not only forms but their combat aplications and practicing them with parteners endlessly to engraved them in the practitioners' muscles memory, are extremely deadly.

those applications are practiced via cooperative drills though...

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Sim Koning

Now every thing I did in that situation would have been against the rules in the UFC, techniques that would normally compensate for a lack of ground skill are not allowed at all, thus making the ground fighter’s game a little easier.

how good of a wrestler was he? pain compliance is not the answer and usually only makes a person mad. I've been clawed, pinched, bitten....it's not gonna make me let go, firstly. secondly, I wouldn't be trying to just hold you down, as you say he did. If we are fighting and on the ground, I will be striking you, waiting for that opening when you give me a limb I can break in half, unless I decide not to be on the ground, in which case, I'd be looking for the most efficient way to get up.

[Sim Koning]

how good of a wrestler was he? pain compliance is not the answer and usually only makes a person mad. I've been clawed, pinched, bitten....it's not gonna make me let go, firstly. secondly, I wouldn't be trying to just hold you down, as you say he did. If we are fighting and on the ground, I will be striking you, waiting for that opening when you give me a limb I can break in half, unless I decide not to be on the ground, in which case, I'd be looking for the most efficient way to get up.

Now don’t get me wrong, I never said ground skills were not important, I’ve dabbled a bit in judo and jiu-jitsu for that reason. If a kung fu stylist has no ground skills whatsoever, he is still going to lose very fast. All I was trying to say is that kung fu specializes in certain techniques that would help level the playing field a bit since no matter how much he cross trains in jiu jitsu, he will never be as good at it as someone who does nothing but.

I’m not talking about simply pinching and biting, anyone idiot can do that, and like you say the ground fighter could probably put himself in a position to do it better. To use the techniques I’m talking about, you do have to know what you are doing, and unless the grappler has cross trained in eagle claw, he is not going to know how to do them as well as the eagle claw guy in the same way the eagle claw guy is not going to be able to do jiu jitsu techniques as well as the grappler. A good reference to see the techniques I’m writing about would be Yang Jwing Ming’s Chin Na books.

About my confrontation with the wrestler, you have to realize it was a “friendly” contest and I was just showing him that I can do more than kick and punch; otherwise we would have been kicking and punching each other. Nor was I simply pinching him, I knew what I was doing as far as the clawing techniques, since I train in tiger claw. I wouldn’t be trying to use that to defeat him in a real fight, but I would be using it to make things much more painful for him, at least in hopes that he might try to change his position and give me an opportunity to get free or back up. But I do know the basics of ground fighting, otherwise I would lose no matter what I do.

[Sim Koning]

strikes like the phoenix eye are not prohibited in MMA and you can do them with mma gloves on. the gloves allow for hand dexterity, and you can grab, lock, phoenix eye, etc.

This is true, and if remember correctly, the instructor in that video clip I posted used it (not in that fight though) once while wearing those type of gloves and broke a guy’s cheekbone. In fact he told me when his knuckles are free that's how he likes to punch.


those applications are practiced via cooperative drills though...

Depends on the school. A good kwoon teaches you in this order: basics, forms, two man drills, light contact free sparring, full contact free sparring. In my opinion this is the best way to train.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Sim Koning

A good reference to see the techniques I’m writing about would be Yang Jwing Ming’s Chin Na books.

I've seen him in person. He's very skilled.

[Sim Koning]

I just got back from class and my back is killing me =(. Well anyway I talked to the guy in the video clip, Duncan Duffin, he is one our instructors at the school, he told me that he is flying to California to train with Cung Le as well as fight on his team. He has already trained with Shawn Liu. I guess he is going to fight one of the Fairtex guys and he wants me to spar with him to help prepare, mainly because I’m a good kicker like the Thai Boxer will be.

I guess all my point was with this thread is that there are a few Kung Fu schools out there that train for real combat as well as traditional forms and weapons. We even do kali stick and knife drills. Sometimes it can feel a little weird when you are showing a student how to kill someone with a knife, especially when you consider that his blood would probably spray in your face and you would have to watch a man die in front of you. You also learn really fast just how difficult it would be to defend yourself from a knife attack when the other guy is faking and resisting. I think way too many schools out there are risking people’s lives by teaching them knife and gun disarms that wouldn’t really work, I think the best way to learn how defend against a knife is to learn how to attack with one.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Sim Koning

Depends on the school. A good kwoon teaches you in this order: basics, forms, two man drills, light contact free sparring, full contact free sparring. In my opinion this is the best way to train.


Originally posted by Shao Lin Long

All traditional martial arts(or almost all) were developed for maiming or killing an opponent, so wether u like it or not the mayority of their techniques ARE prohibited in this type of competition. Their sole aim is to try to disable an opponent as fast as you can because they were developed in times were war was common and were society wasn't bound by any laws so you had to practice this techniques to defend your life even if it meant taking the one of another person. An other point,in traditional martial arts(at least kung fu) they don't teach you to trade blows with ones opponents until one drops, they teach you to block and dodge until you see an opening, then hit or grab or pull one of the opponents vital points to take him down so in matches of boxing and kickboxing alike they are also limited, not only because alot of the techniques are prohinited because they may MAIM or KILL, but because they also were gloves and this limits the practitioner not only to normal punches(no other punches like phoenix eye, no other hand attack like the palm, and no grabs and hold) but it also reduces the ability to knockdown an opponent with little blows to weak parts(as trained in traditional martial arts) because the gloves reduce the impact.


Out of curiosity, how do you train full contact with the techniques that shao lin long is referring to? During the tokugawa era of japan, jujutsu exponents did not spar for the very reason SLL mentioned. sparring wasn't introduced until the advent of a sport art - judo.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Sim Koning
I just got back from class and my back is killing me =(. Well anyway I talked to the guy in the video clip, Duncan Duffin, he is one our instructors at the school, he told me that he is flying to California to train with Cung Le as well as fight on his team. He has already trained with Shawn Liu. I guess he is going to fight one of the Fairtex guys and he wants me to spar with him to help prepare, mainly because I’m a good kicker like the Thai Boxer will be.

Awesome! When is the fight? I'm currently training for the thai boxing nationals.

You also learn really fast just how difficult it would be to defend yourself from a knife attack when the other guy is faking and resisting. I think way too many schools out there are risking people’s lives by teaching them knife and gun disarms that wouldn’t really work, I think the best way to learn how defend against a knife is to learn how to attack with one.

I couldn't agree more.

[Sim Koning]

Out of curiosity, how do you train full contact with the techniques that shao lin long is referring to? During the tokugawa era of japan, jujutsu exponents did not spar for the very reason SLL mentioned. sparring wasn't introduced until the advent of a sport art - judo.


You mean like tiger claws, throat strikes etc…? We don’t, we put gloves on, but if you can punch a guy in the face, it doesn’t take much to change the formation of your hand and strike him with a more sophisticated fist technique, like a single or fore knuckle strike, its not that hard to strike a guy in the neck either, I’ve done that by accident with both me legs and my hands. The point is we train the nasty stuff in the forms, and we do it until they are perfected. Full contact training teaches you how to deliver the blow, though usually with a fist, that fist can easily become something else in a real fight, since the delivery method is essentially the same. The key in kung fu is to combine the two, forms and fighting. Full contact sparring has always been a part of shao lin, though in the past it was done bare knuckle and on a 5' raised platform.

As far as clawing and small joint manipulation, that can be done without causing serious injury, which leads me to wonder why its not allowed in the UFC, are they worried the crowd will construe it as cheating?

[Sim Koning]

Awesome! When is the fight? I'm currently training for the thai boxing nationals.

I'm not sure, I forgot to ask for some reason, I'll ask him again Monday and get back with on that.

[Shao Lin Long]

Out of curiosity, how do you train full contact with the techniques that shao lin long is referring to? During the tokugawa era of japan, jujutsu exponents did not spar for the very reason SLL mentioned. sparring wasn't introduced until the advent of a sport art - judo.

Yeah, what I meant in my post was kung fu Fighting(like the fighting applications of the forms.) A think what Sim Koning understand of kung fu fighting is ports fighting like san shou(which is called sparring not fighting). I understand this because now aday is hard to find school that this you how to fight like this,
even some traditionals, when they teach you how to FIGHT they teach you San Shou.

Seven Stars- and yeah, Sparring was around even before Shaolin kung fu started it goes back to hundresd of years B.C. simply it wasn't formalized into something called san shou, that happened in the 20th century. But still even to that day saprring was held with rules and as a sports.

[Shao Lin Long]

jujutsu exponents did not spar for the very reason SLL mentioned.
They didn't spar because sparring was a sport even if it cuold be used for real fighting. Martial arts were invented for the exponents to have some technicals advantages in a fight , after years and years of trial and error. Although one could fight as in sparring, that was not the idea of the martial arts, because if one fights as in sparring one does not have any technical advantages in a fight, it comes down to who is more condition, and if both are equally condition who is smarter.

[Sim Koning]

Yeah, what I meant in my post was kung fu Fighting(like the fighting applications of the forms.) A think what Sim Koning understand of kung fu fighting is ports fighting like san shou(which is called sparring not fighting). I understand this because now aday is hard to find school that this you how to fight like this,

San Shou is not just sport fighting, its a general term for free fighting as well as free form techniques or combinations. I know all the applications of my forms and I know how to use them. Just because I’m not poking my sparring partners eye out with a crane technique doesn’t mean I don’t know how to “kung fu fight”. The idea that sparring in something like san shou degrades the art is utter BS.

I think some kung fu stylists out there don’t like to admit that when it boils down to it kung fu doesn’t look much different than kickboxing. But the fact is, you have to keep your guard up like any boxer or kickboxer, you have to cover up and move more often than you block etc… The fact is your fist and palm is going to be your primary weapons in a fight against another fighter, its much harder than people think to poke a guy in the eyes when it’s already difficult to punch him in the face with a boxing glove on.

You CAN NOT learn how to fight without sparring, and you can not use lethal techniques when you spar, nor are you going to go at bare knuckle every other day because most of us have to get to work the next day. But, if you know the applications of the techniques in your forms, it takes little to convert a jab into a snake hand strike, or an uppercut into a palm strike.

If you spar with little or no contact, this will teach you nothing about real fighting, you are learning how to pretend to fight, not fight.

[Shao Lin Long]

Originally posted by Sim Koning


San Shou is not just sport fighting, its a general term for free fighting as well as free form techniques or combinations. I know all the applications of my forms and I know how to use them. Just because I’m not poking my sparring partners eye out with a crane technique doesn’t mean I don’t know how to “kung fu fight”. The idea that sparring in something like san shou degrades the art is utter BS.

I think some kung fu stylists out there don’t like to admit that when it boils down to it kung fu doesn’t look much different than kickboxing. But the fact is, you have to keep your guard up like any boxer or kickboxer, you have to cover up and move more often than you block etc… The fact is your fist and palm is going to be your primary weapons in a fight against another fighter, its much harder than people think to poke a guy in the eyes when it’s already difficult to punch him in the face with a boxing glove on.

You CAN NOT learn how to fight without sparring, and you can not use lethal techniques when you spar, nor are you going to go at bare knuckle every other day because most of us have to get to work the next day. But, if you know the applications of the techniques in your forms, it takes little to convert a jab into a snake hand strike, or an uppercut into a palm strike.

If you spar with little or no contact, this will teach you nothing about real fighting, you are learning how to pretend to fight, not fight.

I never , EVER said that san shou degrades the art in any way. And I know that one has to spar to know how to fight. Thats the next step in gungfu practice after learning the combat application, actually practicing it. First you must become familiar with the form and practice it fluidly, then separete de form into Attack-defense patterns, then after practicing thewm learning the combat application , and after that practicing with a parter the combat application , and then sparring.
Oh and kung Fu doesn't nessesaraly need to look like kickboxing. Only if you like to fight that way.

[Sim Koning]

I never , EVER said that san shou degrades the art in any way. And I know that one has to spar to know how to fight.

Sorry, I think I misunderstood what you were trying to say


Oh and kung Fu doesn't nessesaraly need to look like kickboxing. Only if you like to fight that way.

Depends on the style, obviously Wing Chun is nothing like kickboxing, but styles like Choy Li Fut and Jow Gar (my style) are hard to distinguish from kickboxing at times if the guy isn't wearing a Chinese outfit.

[Dark Knight]

BTW, as everyone adds San Shou as an example that it works well in MMA, I see ads for San Shou seminars on MMA sites.

The MMA people see the value.

The boneheads dont know what they are talking about and know nothing about San Shou.

[Merryprankster]

It's pretty simple here folks:

You all follow a set of rules in the training hall too.

So this rules/no rules, training for the street stuff is BS.

EVERYBODY has a set of rules, whether you choose to acknowledge it or not.

[Dark Knight]

As far as clawing and small joint manipulation, that can be done without causing serious injury, which leads me to wonder why its not allowed in the UFC, are they worried the crowd will construe it as cheating?

UFC has those rules for acouple reasons, including legal concerns, and to keep a fight entertaining. But the other organizations do not.

UFC is not the end all for NHB fighting look at the others to find more open rules.

[Meat Shake]

"sparring wasn't introduced until the advent of a sport art - judo."

Actually... from what I understand shuai chiao practitioners have been free wrestling since shuai chiao was shuai chiao.

Good luck to those of you competing in full contact fighting venues.
For those of you point sparring - go fight.
:D

[Shao Lin Long]

First of all, UFC is not REAL fighting, its more of a sport. All traditional martial arts(or almost all) were developed for maiming or killing an opponent, so wether u like it or not the mayority of their techniques ARE prohibited in this type of competition.

If a person can't use the principles of their art without using "lethal" techniques, I question their training. A grappler can take you down, mount you and eye gouge you, or fish hook you from a rear mount, etc. but can also operate outside of that environment.

the majority of tma techniques are NOT limited, only a small handfull of them.

Their sole aim is to try to disable an opponent as fast as you can because they were developed in times were war was common and were society wasn't bound by any laws so you had to practice this techniques to defend your life even if it meant taking the one of another person.

1. any MA in a fight wants to take you out ASAP

2. most martial arts were NOT designed for use in wars and battles. they were village styles, family styles, etc. used for protection.


An other point,in traditional martial arts(at least kung fu) they don't teach you to trade blows with ones opponents until one drops, they teach you to block and dodge until you see an opening, then hit or grab or pull one of the opponents vital points to take him down so in matches of boxing and kickboxing alike they are also limited, not only because alot of the techniques are prohinited because they may MAIM or KILL, but because they also were gloves and this limits the practitioner not only to normal punches(no other punches like phoenix eye, no other hand attack like the palm, and no grabs and hold) but it also reduces the ability to knockdown an opponent with little blows to weak parts(as trained in traditional martial arts) because the gloves reduce the impact. So traditional martial arts may not do well in those competition but in real fighting, where everything counts, Traditional martial arts are very effective.

strikes like the phoenix eye are not prohibited in MMA and you can do them with mma gloves on. the gloves allow for hand dexterity, and you can grab, lock, phoenix eye, etc.


I'm not saying that MMA don't work on the street(because they also really work on the streets) but only resalting that TMA fair better on the streets than in a ring or a competition.

nonsense.

Sorry to bother you about this old topic but, I strongly disagree with somethings here.

The first point: Maybe its true that alot aren't lethal techniques but alot of them that aren't lethal techniques are directed to tplaces wthat the UFC prohibits, like hits or grabs to the throat, the back of the neck. elbows to the ribs, grabs or hits or kicks to the groin,joint breaking grab and hits,etc.
Let me give you an example: in my kung fu school one of the first thing they teach you are 18 shaolin basic self defense techiniques:
1. a block followed by a punch to the chest
2.a block to a high a attck followed by a grab-and pull motion wher you are supposed to drill your elbow to the persons' ribs while at the same time pullin his arm to the opposite direction.
3.a simultaneoushigh block and counter with a punch to the nose
4. a techniqeu where you lean back to let a kick pass and the strike with a hammer fist o the opponents groin.
5.A feint punch followed by a counter to the block and the a punch to the ribs.
6. a a counter to a punch thrown from behind and the followed by a swinging punch to the back of the neck.
7. An intercepting grab to an opponents oncoming swinginpunch and simutaneously striking the opponents ribs with the elbow.
8. A simultaneous double block one from a punch coming from
the top and an other for a kick to the gorin the... the second block is also intende to breack the opponents ankle since its a knife hand strike also(not just a block).
9.A block to an incoming double grab to the neck folllowed by a hooking of his ankle with yours and then an upward "push" with your palms to his hips.
10. hook block to a straight punched followed by a sweep.
11. A swingingblock to a low kick followed by a sweep to the ankle(using the momentum of the swingingblock.
12. an instep kick to the gorin leaning back to avoid getting hit by a punch.
13. a feint kick to the groins followed by a kick to the head.
14. a eagle claw block from a straight punch simultaneously grabbing te opponent by the troat with another eagle claw.
15. a grabbing block to apunch followed by a break of the arm
16.A counter to a grab of the wrist by trapping the opponents wrist and twisting.
17. A counter to a garb of the wrist by traping the opponents wrist and breaking hi s elbow with your elbow
18. counter to a grab of the shoulder by twisting the opponents wrist breaking the elbo with your elbow the punching the opponents face.

Now if you see not many of this basic techniques are legal in the UFC.

2nd point:
Maybe some of the arts where created by Families, like the southern styles but, just take Eagle Claw for example: Yue Fei invented that style along with Hsing I to train his troops to fight aginst the invasion from the north. The same thing with okinawan karate: the fisherman developed it because the invaders took away their weapons and eachh day the need of unarmed fighting skill bacame more nesesary.

3rd point:
An other point,in traditional martial arts(at least kung fu) they don't teach you to trade blows with ones opponents until one drops, they teach you to block and dodge until you see an opening, then hit or grab or pull one of the opponents vital points to take him down so in matches of boxing and kickboxing alike they are also limited, not only because alot of the techniques are prohinited because they may MAIM or KILL, but because they also were gloves and this limits the practitioner not only to normal punches(no other punches like phoenix eye, no other hand attack like the palm, and no grabs and hold) but it also reduces the ability to knockdown an opponent with little blows to weak parts(as trained in traditional martial arts) because the gloves reduce the impact. So traditional martial arts may not do well in those competition but in real fighting, where everything counts, Traditional martial arts are very effective.

Just re read this without paying attention to what I said about the hand forms in the gloves.

4th point

You just said nonsense . Please explain your points so I can understand better what you think...

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Shao Lin Long
Sorry to bother you about this old topic but, I strongly disagree with somethings here.

no prob... I actually forgot about this thread, which is what took me so long to reply.

The first point: Maybe its true that alot aren't lethal techniques but alot of them that aren't lethal techniques are directed to tplaces wthat the UFC prohibits, like hits or grabs to the throat, the back of the neck. elbows to the ribs, grabs or hits or kicks to the groin,joint breaking grab and hits,etc.

Actually, elbows to the ribs are allowed. so are joint breaks - after all, a submission is a choke, joint lock, etc. if they don't tap before the joint is broken, that is their fault. Pride has very few restrictions. They are listed below:

# Biting
# Eye thumbing and eye gouging
# Head butting
# Attacking the groin
# Pulling Hair
# Pushing the windpipe with the thumb or finger (s) or squeezing the windpipe
Attacking the back of the head, the spine and/or the medulla (The back of the head is the centerline of the head and the area around the ears are not considered to be the back of the head.)
# Using the elbows to attack the head or the face
# Grabbing the ropes and refuse to release the ropes and/or hanging the limbs of the body (hand(s), arm(s), leg(s) or feet) over the rope intentionally. A fighter who places his upper arm over the rope shall be given a caution immediately.
# Escaping to the outside of the ring
# Throwing the opponent outside the ring
# Stalling or failure to initiate any offensive or defensive attack. Making no attempt to finish or damage the opponent.


Let me give you an example: in my kung fu school one of the first thing they teach you are 18 shaolin basic self defense techiniques:
1. a block followed by a punch to the chest
2.a block to a high a attck followed by a grab-and pull motion wher you are supposed to drill your elbow to the persons' ribs while at the same time pullin his arm to the opposite direction.
3.a simultaneoushigh block and counter with a punch to the nose
4. a techniqeu where you lean back to let a kick pass and the strike with a hammer fist o the opponents groin.
5.A feint punch followed by a counter to the block and the a punch to the ribs.
6. a a counter to a punch thrown from behind and the followed by a swinging punch to the back of the neck.
7. An intercepting grab to an opponents oncoming swinginpunch and simutaneously striking the opponents ribs with the elbow.
8. A simultaneous double block one from a punch coming from
the top and an other for a kick to the gorin the... the second block is also intende to breack the opponents ankle since its a knife hand strike also(not just a block).
9.A block to an incoming double grab to the neck folllowed by a hooking of his ankle with yours and then an upward "push" with your palms to his hips.
10. hook block to a straight punched followed by a sweep.
11. A swingingblock to a low kick followed by a sweep to the ankle(using the momentum of the swingingblock.
12. an instep kick to the gorin leaning back to avoid getting hit by a punch.
13. a feint kick to the groins followed by a kick to the head.
14. a eagle claw block from a straight punch simultaneously grabbing te opponent by the troat with another eagle claw.
15. a grabbing block to apunch followed by a break of the arm
16.A counter to a grab of the wrist by trapping the opponents wrist and twisting.
17. A counter to a garb of the wrist by traping the opponents wrist and breaking hi s elbow with your elbow
18. counter to a grab of the shoulder by twisting the opponents wrist breaking the elbo with your elbow the punching the opponents face.

Now if you see not many of this basic techniques are legal in the UFC.

out of all of the stuff you listed, ONLY TWO of them aren't allowed in pride.

2nd point:
Maybe some of the arts where created by Families, like the southern styles but, just take Eagle Claw for example: Yue Fei invented that style along with Hsing I to train his troops to fight aginst the invasion from the north. The same thing with okinawan karate: the fisherman developed it because the invaders took away their weapons and eachh day the need of unarmed fighting skill bacame more nesesary.

it's still a family style, not a battlefield oriented style, so that's irrelevant. Battlefield styles were generally weapons oriented, for obvious reasons. Okinawan karate was a "peasant style" they were mainly farmers and fisherman, and thus used farm tools as weapons. Awesome stuff, but not a battlefield art.

3rd point:
An other point,in traditional martial arts(at least kung fu) they don't teach you to trade blows with ones opponents until one drops

If you think sport fighting teaches this, you should actually go check out a school...

they teach you to block and dodge until you see an opening, then hit or grab or pull one of the opponents vital points to take him down

that's really no different than what we do.

so in matches of boxing and kickboxing alike they are also limited, not only because alot of the techniques are prohinited because they may MAIM or KILL, but because they also were gloves and this limits the practitioner not only to normal punches(no other punches like phoenix eye, no other hand attack like the palm, and no grabs and hold) but it also reduces the ability to knockdown an opponent with little blows to weak parts(as trained in traditional martial arts) because the gloves reduce the impact. So traditional martial arts may not do well in those competition but in real fighting, where everything counts, Traditional martial arts are very effective.

compete in MMA where open fingered gloves are used. you will then be able to do everything you mentioned above, as it is all legal.

4th point

You just said nonsense . Please explain your points so I can understand better what you think...

How is it better suited for the street? What special training is done that makes it more effective for the street than a ring?

[reemul]

I didn't even get through all the post before having to respond to the idiocy.

First the UFC is an event not a MA. All those who compete know there are rules (no matter what the style) and the participants train with that in mind. That fact that the UFC has rules implies that it is not in fact "real."

Style aside, if you have two fighters and one traines and conditions himself for the UFC and the other Traines for non-sport combativeness, in the ring of the UFC the one who trained for the UFC would have an advantage. On the street the non-sport combatant would have an advantage.

Comments on techniques

As far as eye gouges and tiger claws being impractical theory, you have never fought someone who has properly trained and conditioned for proper execution. If an individual is capable of poking a hole through a quarter inch piece of wood, that is more than enough to take out an eye (prividing you hit your target).

Also with regard to tiger claws this is not simply technique, it is the condition of hands to where they become thick and caloused to the point where finger tips can rip flesh. The more you bleed the quicker your energy will disipate in a lengthy engagement.
I play guitar and my calouses are nowhere near that which can be achieved through TG claw conditioning and I have cut myself before. So this is fact not theory.

Grabbing the windpipe is a fight stopper. Done it.

Summary

Most fights have more to do with ego than with self preservation. Understanding this we can establish that in most fights the participants lack the mindset to actively persue maiming or killing their opponent. It is a trait of being civilized. In the UFC it is possible for someone to be killed, It is also plausible that it may be a combatants mindset to do so (no repercussions, sh!t happens at fighting events) . That is why the rules are there.
If these techniques didn't work why would they be forbidden.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by reemul
I didn't even get through all the post before having to respond to the idiocy.

First the UFC is an event not a MA. All those who compete know there are rules (no matter what the style) and the participants train with that in mind. That fact that the UFC has rules implies that it is not in fact "real."

The fact that you felt the need to state that says that you need to reat the thread before responding.

Style aside, if you have two fighters and one traines and conditions himself for the UFC and the other Traines for non-sport combativeness, in the ring of the UFC the one who trained for the UFC would have an advantage. On the street the non-sport combatant would have an advantage.

that's incorrect. the one training harder and more efficiently will have the upper hand in either scenario, regardless of style.


As far as eye gouges and tiger claws being impractical theory, you have never fought someone who has properly trained and conditioned for proper execution. If an individual is capable of poking a hole through a quarter inch piece of wood, that is more than enough to take out an eye (prividing you hit your target).

Bingo - PROVIDING YOU HIT YOUR TARGET. Since you haven't read the thread, and since you haven't been around in a while, you probably missed it. The biggest argument most of us have against these techniques is probability of contact - when someone has their chin tucked, hands up, head movement, etc, the throat isn't an easy target. Same for the eyes.

Also with regard to tiger claws this is not simply technique, it is the condition of hands to where they become thick and caloused to the point where finger tips can rip flesh. The more you bleed the quicker your energy will disipate in a lengthy engagement.
I play guitar and my calouses are nowhere near that which can be achieved through TG claw conditioning and I have cut myself before. So this is fact not theory.

I don't disagree with that.

Grabbing the windpipe is a fight stopper. Done it.

see your above statement about hitting the target.

That is why the rules are there.
If these techniques didn't work why would they be forbidden.

Once again, the argument isn't that they don't work. sure getting hit in the throat hurts. so does getting an eye poked out. but how likely is it? since it can possibly happen, they rule against it. if I attempt 10 eye gouges and one of them is successful, you may lose an eye. they are cutting off that possibility by not letting you attempt it.

[reemul]

UFC related martial arts are being sold as being more realistic and effective than the traditional arts such as karate and kung fu. Many people are starting to look at traditional styles as being antiquated and as something that does not work in real life. The fact that very few if any kung fu stylists compete in the UFC does not help the situation. Before I continue, let’s look at the rules.


The biggest argument most of us have against these techniques is probability of contact - when someone has their chin tucked, hands up, head movement, etc, the throat isn't an easy target. Same for the eyes.

What is so improbable about these techniques? If your a good fighter, just as in boxing, you are able to develop strategies to set your opponent up. It still just comes down to who is better, not the probability of which techniques will land.


Style aside, if you have two fighters and one traines and conditions himself for the UFC and the other Traines for non-sport combativeness, in the ring of the UFC the one who trained for the UFC would have an advantage. On the street the non-sport combatant would have an advantage.



that's incorrect. the one training harder and more efficiently will have the upper hand in either scenario, regardless of style.

You missed the point, given they train equally as hard each has an advantage over the other in there own environement.

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by reemul


As far as eye gouges and tiger claws being impractical theory, you have never fought someone who has properly trained and conditioned for proper execution.

So, just how many people have you blinded or killed so far?

[reemul]

Maybe I should ask you, how many people capable and willing to blind maim or kill you have you fought.

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by reemul
Maybe I should ask you, ...

Maybe you should answer my question.

[reemul]

...but its a pointless question and either way doesn't really lend any usefulness to the debate.

Your logic is akin to the belief that a knife cant cut you although many people have been cut by knives and it is a fact that knives can cut you.

Your disbelief in the usefulness of techniques is based on your apparent limited exposure (not an insult). No one in the forums is an expert on all the styles of MA and their effectivness, we can only comment on what we know in relation to what we observe and discuss.

I know that a knife will cut you.

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by reemul
...but its a pointless question



So, the answer you are avoiding is "zero". Thank you.

[reemul]

... now what was the point to your question?

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by reemul
... now what was the point to your question?

Just so we are on the same page, you admit that the number is zero?

[Merryprankster]

HIS point is the same point I made ages ago:

We ALL follow a set of rules in our training or competitions for safety reasons.

YOU follow rules in the kwoon. THEY follow rules in the ring.

So arguing that "your techniques are not allowed" is a bull**** comment.

YOUR techniques aren't even allowed in YOUR training! It's only a simulation!

Just as the UFC is a simulation of personal combat with a different set of rules.

All of this rules crap is a red herring. If you want to fight in the ring, fight. If you don't, don't. But don't puss out with a bull**** excuse about "rules," cause everybody's got em.

[reemul]

Well, then we must be having two different conversations.

I had already stated that UFC was not real and neither are most fights on the street. They have more to do with ego rather than self preservation. The UFC has rules so people don't get killed. Many of your Traditional styles do practice alot if not all the techniques that are banned. But thats not to say a traditional stylist could not do well in the event as long as they trained according to the rules. I don't recommend Traditional training if you plan to go into the UFC because rules basically define how you play the "game". But none of this speaks to whether the banned techniques are effective.

My argument was aimed at the NHB inspired comment that techniques of traditional styles are improbable or simply do not work. I also pointed out that rare is the chance that someone with that level of training and skill will be involved in a street fight.

My argument has never been about justifying why Traditional MA don't participate that often in UFC. Personally I think it has something to do with a different mindset. Most of the UFC fighters don't strike me as MA masters, they all seem to have something to prove. Again its all about ego.

So what ever the point was, I fail to see the relevance.

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by reemul


My argument was aimed at the NHB inspired comment that techniques of traditional styles are improbable or simply do not work.

Just because they are never actually used? Go figure!

[Merryprankster]

Many of your Traditional styles do practice alot if not all the techniques that are banned.

No, they are NOT practiced. They are simulated at best. But no more so than in any other place

Or do you have a lot of one-eyed people at your kwoon?

My suggestion was not that TCMA practitioners would, by their studies, fail at UFC style competitions.

My assertion is quite simple: That rules abound. They are not limited to the UFC, Pride, or any other event. You play by a set of rules at the Kwoon designed to ensure....


people don't get killed

To believe otherwise is a mystifying sort of cognitive dissonance.

So, do you get it now?

[3rdrateIMAkilla]

I haven't read the whole thread yet, but a few points.

1. The wrong assumption that if a kungfu school spars, knows some shuai chiao, and does San Shou, that means they can be as good as Boxing, wrestling, BJJ, or Muay Thai. Anyone I've met who knows about MMA, has told me Muay Thai and grappling is the way to go if you wanna get good, not San Shou. Emulate Alex Gong, NOT Cung Le.

2. Sometimes the fighters break the rules, and are disqualified, but the opponent is still laid out. Wes Sims grabbed the fence and stomped Frank Mir, he was disqualified, but everyone saw him KO Mir. And a rematch was needed to promote the sport and competition.

3. I often see people head spike the opponent, and NOT be disqualified at all.

[Merryprankster]

I often see people head spike the opponent, and NOT be disqualified at all.

That's because it's usually legal.

[reemul]

I'm sorry if you have a reading disability,

But I agreed with the point you made and haven't said anything to the contrary.

I believe my issue is with the styles affiiated with the UFC propagating that only styles that compete in the UFC are realistic.

To imply realism to me refers to life and death street fight.

I've made no mention of my school or what I do so to even bring it up is doesn't serve your argument.

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by reemul


To imply realism to me refers to life and death street fight.



So realism means doing something that you have never, ever done before and just hoping that it will work because someone convinced you that it would?

[Merryprankster]

unkokusai, take it away!

[Merryprankster]

As far as eye gouges and tiger claws being impractical theory, you have never fought someone who has properly trained and conditioned for proper execution. If an individual is capable of poking a hole through a quarter inch piece of wood, that is more than enough to take out an eye (prividing you hit your target).

Also with regard to tiger claws this is not simply technique, it is the condition of hands to where they become thick and caloused to the point where finger tips can rip flesh. The more you bleed the quicker your energy will disipate in a lengthy engagement.
I play guitar and my calouses are nowhere near that which can be achieved through TG claw conditioning and I have cut myself before. So this is fact not theory.

On the contrary. You made some quite specific comments about how you train - and thus, one infers, your school.

Further, you stated that there is a difference between training for the street and sport. At least some of that difference, according to your own posts, is attributable to techniques.

It seems that even the casual observer should be able to make the connection that you feel - quite strongly - that there are certain techniques, ie tiger claw, windpipe grabs, etc, are part of street training.

You further contend that:


As far as eye gouges and tiger claws being impractical theory, you have never fought someone who has properly trained and conditioned for proper execution.

Prithee good sir, does properly conditioned and trained include actually executing the technique on person who does not want you to and who is actively trying to do something back to you?

Do you have many one-eyed training brothers, or people missing chunks of flesh?

Or do you just ship in desperate people needing some quick cash in return for the opportunity to poke out an eye?

Because if you do not do these things, then you are not actually practicing the technique. You are simulating it. And the reason you are simulating it is so....



people don't get killed

...or maimed or unduly injured.

I'm betting that nobody at your school is actually practicing these techniques and that you are not actually practicing these techniques. You are simulating them. And there is nothing particularly "real" about that. You cannot point out the flaw in "UFC logic" (ie, that sport events are simulated not "real" combat), without acknowledging that you are hostage to the same issue (ie, that kwoon training is simulated, not "real" combat).

[reemul]

I have made no comments in first person with regard to training tiger claws or any thing else related to MA.


Also with regard to tiger claws this is not simply technique, it is the condition of hands to where they become thick and caloused to the point where finger tips can rip flesh.

I did make a commnent on calouses from playin guitar.

My stance on the subject is simple.
Assumptions that techniques that are considered traditional style are improbable and just theory that doesn't work is nothing more than fighting sport propaganda.

What makes someone potentially dangerous is not what they know, how well they know it, and not how many years they have spent training. What makes someone dangerous is how far they are willing to go when the punches start to fly. The biggest hurdle in maiming someone or killing them is a mental issue. Most people have difficulty with this and some have less. It has a lot to do with the mindset your school promotes.

In many traditional schools its not just about technique and conditioning, its about achieving a certain mindset. And a sport mindset is significantly different than a combative mindset.

your logic of simulating technique and not practicing the actual thing, and therfore it doesn't work ... well that is just nonsense.
Our U.S. troops who went straight out of bootcamp to Iraq where simulating fighting, and they seem to be handling the adjustment.

This discussion can go round and round and I think we beat the horse to death. I do know what some individuals are capable of and you think otherwise.

The proof is on the mat or on the street and I have no interest in killing you. (just kidding hahahahaha)

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by reemul
I do know what some individuals are capable of


How?

[reemul]

I have eyes

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by reemul
I have eyes


Oh! So you've seen these people maim and kill others?

[reemul]

You know I'm starting to believe that you have lived a sheltered life, cuz I have trouble understanding how you cant seem to accept that there are brutal people in this world.

Now I'm not saying such people are mean or evil just that when put to task are willing and able to resort to what some would consider extremes.

The only thing I can suggest, because you apparently don't wish to lend any plausibility to an opposing argument, is to go find a real old school KF practioner who has no qualms about F&*^%ing you up and fight him. You will most likely have trouble finding one, kinda goes against most school ethics. But you might.

[unkokusai]

So, when you said "yes", were you indicating that you have seen the people you train with use your super-deadly theory techniques to kill and maim? That must have been pretty interesting.

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by reemul

The only thing I can suggest, is to go find a real old school KF practioner who has no qualms about F&*^%ing you up and fight him.

You will most likely have trouble finding one,

lol

I don't doubt that!

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by reemul
You know I'm starting to believe that you have lived a sheltered life.

Yeah, I don't seem to have as much experience as you with imaginary techiniques.







Wait a minute.........

[Meat Shake]

"The wrong assumption that if a kungfu school spars, knows some shuai chiao, and does San Shou, that means they can be as good as Boxing, wrestling, BJJ, or Muay Thai. ."


No, but a shuai chiao school that boxes and fights on the ground can be as good as what you listed above. Ive fought with people from MMA, BJJ, and Muay thai camps and done just fine.

"What makes someone potentially dangerous is not what they know, how well they know it, and not how many years they have spent training. What makes someone dangerous is how far they are willing to go when the punches start to fly. "

Ok... So lets say that Im more than happy to stomp on your jugular and rip out your eyes then skull **** you, but Im only 5' and 130 lbs, and know nothing about fighting. Well say you on the other hand are a "sport fighter" with a record of 10-0, and are 5'10 and 165 lbs, but you dont really want to hurt the other guy too bad. Who wins?
:rolleyes:

[reemul]

I said it makes them "potentially dangerous."

[reemul]

What is an imaginary technique?

From my perspective, in a more barbaric time, techniques such tiger claws were used, that is why they are part of KF systems.
The fact that we live in a more civilized world doesnt erase the knowledge of the past.

Perhaps it is your understanding of the application.

If I can hit you, I can tiger claw you just as easy. I fail to see the mistique about it.

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by reemul


From my perspective, in a more barbaric time, techniques such tiger claws were used.

From your 'perspective'?! Do you major in imaginary history as well?

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by reemul


Perhaps it is your understanding of the application.



What application? You've never applied it!

[reemul]

but I do know enough about physics and biology to what can damage the human body.

so I ask again to please define an imaginary technique.

[reemul]

Ya know I haven't been to the forums in a long time and I just now realize I got baited into a BS discussion.

All right ya got me.
good one

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by reemul
but I do know enough about physics and biology to what can damage the human body.




So, you can imagine what a technique you've never used or even practiced would theoretically do.

[reemul]

come on now, I'm not going to fall for it again.
give it up

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by reemul
come on now, I'm not going to fall for it again.
give it up

If this is your way of admitting you are wrong, I accept.

[reemul]

In order to prove one wrong you must provide an absolute proof to the contrary of the opposing position.

Im afraid personal belief doesn't count. Even a few examples to support your postion does not qualify as proof. If you think you can, please continue.

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by reemul

Im afraid personal belief doesn't count.


You'd better hope it does, Theory-Boy!

[reemul]

Bring the proof any time.

Because until you do, all you have is nothing but theory as well
theoryboy#2

Oh no his own argument bites him in the a$$.

oh the humility must be unbarable.:eek:

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by reemul
Bring the proof any time.

Because until you do, all you have is nothing but theory as well
theoryboy#2



"Bring the proof" of your untested theories and imaginary applications? Yeah, that makes sense. You really got me there. :rolleyes:


Just how many straws are you hoping to grasp with this line of unreasoning?

[reemul]

You said my "theories" are wack

prove it.

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by reemul
You said my "theories" are wack

prove it.


"Bring the proof" of your untested theories and imaginary applications? Yeah, that makes sense. You really got me there.


Just how many straws are you hoping to grasp with this line of unreasoning?


You can't be this unfamiliar with simple logic, so I guess you're trying to be cute now. Good luck with that.

[goldendragon]

I didn't read any of the past posts but by the last one this topic is as I expected, a verbal war. Pertaining to the question of topic here I have to say that both the UFC and "kung-fu" are reality baced. However the UFC has rules so that makes it less reallity baced than say a style or system of kung-fu that employs for example strikes to the eyes and neck which I have yet to see anyone in the UFC do these things leading me to believe that they are not allowed thus making the UFC not as realistic as "kung-fu". However "kung-fu" refurs to all or any CMA which is a lot of styles something like 3,000 so that term is VERY brod.

[reemul]

To briefly fill you in

What you said was basically the jist of my argument.

unkokusai however believes the techniques in KF that you mentioned that are prohibited in UFC are imaginary.

what ever that means.

To unkokusai:

You brought the terms of the argument. You said my comments are theory. In the science community a theory is neither proven nor dis-proven, it is a premis based on facts or supposition.
I provided the premis
So far you have only provided an opposing theory
Simply saying techniques are imaginary does not dis-prove the premis. You seem to be spinning your wheels on the subject.

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by reemul


You brought the terms of the argument. You said my comments are theory. In the science community a theory is neither proven nor dis-proven, it is a premis based on facts or supposition.
I provided the premis
So far you have only provided an opposing theory
Simply saying techniques are imaginary does not dis-prove the premis. You seem to be spinning your wheels on the subject.

I know you think you are being cute, and I recognize this as your way of trying to weasle out of simply admitting that you are wrong. I really hope that your grasp on logic is a bit more solid than what you are facetiously displaying here.

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by goldendragon
However the UFC has rules so that makes it less reallity baced than say a style or system of kung-fu that employs for example strikes to the eyes and neck which I have yet to see anyone in the UFC do these things leading me to believe that they are not allowed thus making the UFC not as realistic as "kung-fu".

But if the UFC folks actually practice what they learn dozens and dozens of times a day, and the kf folks never once practice, let alone use, the things they simulate, which one is more 'real'?

[reemul]

You are just not informed.

To put it another way, "your talking out your a$$"

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by reemul
You are just not informed.




I must be informed. You informed me yourself. You said that you had never done the 'realistic' techniques you were so proud of.

[reemul]

Even if I did that does prove your hypothesis.

try again.;)

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by reemul
Even if I did that does prove your hypothesis.




This is some of the weakest trolling I've seen in awhile. But do carry on if it makes your shame easier to bear.

[reemul]

sorry bout the typo, that was supposed to read:

Even if I did that doesn't prove your hypothesis.

What is weak is your argument, If I didn't know any better I would think you were trying to bait me into another BS challenge over the internet again.

The fact is, your case in this thread has yet to have been made, and my comments earlier where to the effect that you where the one trolling.

If you cant bring any arguments or "proof" other than what you have stated, then you haven't proven anything, you have just stated an oppinion based on your limited exposure to MA.

If you have somthing of substance to lend to your argument then please post it. Other wise I will end this here.

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by reemul
If you have somthing of substance to lend to your argument then please post it. Other wise I will end this here.

Yeah, you would be wise to abandon your illogical nonsense. It isn't working for you.

[reemul]

whatever:rolleyes:

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by reemul
whatever:rolleyes:

Great.

[reemul]

The fact that your hands can be conditioned in such a rough manner as opposed to your face or throat would suggest support for my argument.

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by reemul
The fact that your hands can be conditioned in such a rough manner as opposed to your face or throat would suggest support for my argument.

You're just full of suppositions and suggestions and arguments, but it's all still theory to you.


And you are running out of straws to grasp at.

[reemul]

I knew you couldn't let it go

whahahahahahaha:D

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by reemul
I knew you couldn't let it go

whahahahahahaha:D

Yeah, you got me alright. :rolleyes: Nice work.

[reemul]

yes, still laughing:D

that previous post, now that was a troll. I thought you might see through, but no, sucked right in.

whahahahahaha:D

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by reemul
yes, still laughing:D

that previous post, now that was a troll.
whahahahahaha:D

Ya don't say! Wow. You're good. No, really.

[reemul]

must really get to ya to not get the last word huh.

come on I'll help ya.

Just dont reply cmon I know ya got it in ya.

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by reemul
must really get to ya to not get the last word huh.

come on I'll help ya.

Just dont reply cmon I know ya got it in ya.


I don't want to know what you got in ya (or who).

[reemul]

Dont start what you can't finish.

You don't want to go there.

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by reemul


You don't want to go there.


I doubt anyone does. But good luck in your search.

[CaptinPickAxe]

You have nothing more productive to do but bash others theories because you're too much of a punany to post your own. Good job, pencil dick

BTW, Backbreaker???

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by goldendragon
I didn't read any of the past posts but by the last one this topic is as I expected, a verbal war. Pertaining to the question of topic here I have to say that both the UFC and "kung-fu" are reality baced. However the UFC has rules so that makes it less reallity baced than say a style or system of kung-fu that employs for example strikes to the eyes and neck which I have yet to see anyone in the UFC do these things leading me to believe that they are not allowed thus making the UFC not as realistic as "kung-fu". However "kung-fu" refurs to all or any CMA which is a lot of styles something like 3,000 so that term is VERY brod.

here we go with the rules thing again... in early UFCs, eye gouges were allowed. in pride today most things are allowed, other than hair pulling, eye gouging and strikes to the base of the neck. you can kick a downed opponent, you can do pressure point strikes, etc.

An eye gouge has the potential to be dangerous, yes. But you have to actually land it for that potential to be achieved. The chance of me hitting you with a cross is much greater than you hitting me with an eye gouge, so in reality, who is better off - you who MAY be able to end a fight instantly IF you can even land the strike, or me who CAN end the fight with several ordinary, non fight ending strikes? I use my punches several times a week full power on a bag and full contact against a resisting opponent. How often do you eye gouge your opponent in full contact sparring? Consequently, who will be better at their technique? As stated, all of those deadly techniques are great theoretically, but realistically, you are really no better off than me.

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by CaptinPickAxe
You have nothing more productive to do but bash others theories because you're too much of a punany to post your own. Good job, pencil dick

BTW, Backbreaker???

Was this in response to anything specific?

[reemul]

The counter to your argument was brought up in the use of tiger claw techniques in which the hands are conditioned to the point that they rip and cut flesh. I've seen people able to remove the husk of a coconut by ripping at it. Also, in application tiger claws are as easy to pull off as a palm strike which is nothing more than a punch with a palm open. The conditioning of the hands does not limit attacks to merely tiger claws it also benefits spear hand and others. Again, many of these strikes are as easy to pull off as a punch. To see someone use these techniques is bloody mess.

Replacing instinct with training
When I spar it really doesn't matter what I use to hit someone with because I'm aware that I could have done a number of other things as well. So the fact that I don't tiger claw someone while sparring is no indication of whether I can do it or not, its just a matter of choice. If you have any self awareness built from training for several years, you should know what your capable of doing. Fighting is never scripted from a textbook. Just because you have not done something exact doesn't mean you have not prepared enough to apply it or adapt.

Whe discussing the UFC from my stand point I have yet to see high level KF practioner in it. So yes the probability of coming across some KF techniques are remote.

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by reemul
The counter to your argument was brought up in the use of tiger claw techniques in which the hands are conditioned to the point that they rip and cut flesh. I've seen people able to remove the husk of a coconut by ripping at it.

Well, we know they are ready to fight coconuts!

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by reemul
To see someone use these techniques is bloody mess.




You guess, 'cause you've never seen them.

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by reemul

When I spar it really doesn't matter what I use to hit someone with because I'm aware that I could have done a number of other things as well. So the fact that I don't tiger claw someone while sparring is no indication of whether I can do it or not, its just a matter of choice. If you have any self awareness built from training for several years, you should know what your capable of doing.


It must be comforting to convince yourself of that.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by reemul
The counter to your argument was brought up in the use of tiger claw techniques in which the hands are conditioned to the point that they rip and cut flesh. I've seen people able to remove the husk of a coconut by ripping at it. Also, in application tiger claws are as easy to pull off as a palm strike which is nothing more than a punch with a palm open. The conditioning of the hands does not limit attacks to merely tiger claws it also benefits spear hand and others. Again, many of these strikes are as easy to pull off as a punch. To see someone use these techniques is bloody mess.

I didn't bring up the claw, I brought up the eye gouge. Sticking with the claw example though, how long does it take to attain that? How many people actually do? If there are alot, where are they? Also, ripping flesh is a nuisance...a nuisance is not necessarily a fight ender. I know people who have been in knife fights and kept fighting, as they didn't know they were being slashed - they just thought they were bleeding from a punch they took. (the fight started with fists, and one pulled out a knife in one instance, in the other, the guy pulled a box cutter. In both, neither person even knew they were being cut.) I would rather break a bone, render them unconscious, etc. than rip their flesh.

Replacing instinct with trainingWhen I spar it really doesn't matter what I use to hit someone with because I'm aware that I could have done a number of other things as well. So the fact that I don't tiger claw someone while sparring is no indication of whether I can do it or not, its just a matter of choice. If you have any self awareness built from training for several years, you should know what your capable of doing. Fighting is never scripted from a textbook. Just because you have not done something exact doesn't mean you have not prepared enough to apply it or adapt.


what you are aware of and what you can do are two totally different things. you fight how you train. when I punch someone in the face, I am aware that I coulda attempted a gouge, but I won't put stock on me doing it in a fight. Why? because I don't do it now. knowing how to do something and actually doing it are two different things. I also train judo. I can do a shoulder throw just fine. I've also been shown the shuai chiao variation where you break the arm before you throw them. Am I aware that I can use that variation? sure I am. Could I do it in a fight just because of that? I doubt it.


Whe discussing the UFC from my stand point I have yet to see high level KF practioner in it. So yes the probability of coming across some KF techniques are remote.


Everyone always says that. screw the ufc though - what about chinese events - surely there have been some skilled CMA in kuo shu matches? Were they utilizing these techniques?

[reemul]

my first post was to merely inform you of something you may have missed in the thread.

Now as to your points.
I know you didn't bring up tiger claws, I did as an example of a technique that is as easy to pull off as a punch and has the potential to inflict devastating damage. This was just an example it is not something I suggest people rely on or base there style or strategy on.

As for people being unaware of bleeding yes it happens, but biology dictates that depending on the severity of the wound and how long a fight drags on the wounds will take there toll.

I dont have a preference on stopping my opponents.


what you are aware of and what you can do are two totally different things.

For you maybe. Adaptation is essential for us. In order to be good at adaptation and improvisation you need to possess good awarness of what you are capable of. For us, what one is capable of is not limited to what they train on.
I think we just differ on philosophy here.


Everyone always says that. screw the ufc though - what about chinese events - surely there have been some skilled CMA in kuo shu matches? Were they utilizing these techniques?

The UFC was brought up in the topic of the thread.
As for Chinese events they aknowledge the rules exist to protect the fighters.
The major argument of this thread was which of the two, traditional or UFC type training, prepares you better for real combat.

My thought is training for something makes you good at that something, and sport fighting and traditional training are different mindsets.
What it really comes down to is where and how you train.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by reemul

Now as to your points.
I know you didn't bring up tiger claws, I did as an example of a technique that is as easy to pull off as a punch and has the potential to inflict devastating damage. This was just an example it is not something I suggest people rely on or base there style or strategy on.

gotcha.

As for people being unaware of bleeding yes it happens, but biology dictates that depending on the severity of the wound and how long a fight drags on the wounds will take there toll.

sure, but after how long? I've been kicked in the nuts during an altercation and didn't feel it until after the fight - biology dictates that it will take it's toll EVENTUALLY, which means the fight may be over when it does finally take its toll


For you maybe. Adaptation is essential for us. In order to be good at adaptation and improvisation you need to possess good awarness of what you are capable of. For us, what one is capable of is not limited to what they train on.
I think we just differ on philosophy here.

then by that logic, CMA should be doing extremely well in MMA. I've been saying for years that if you can't use your principles to adapt, then you don't really understand what you're doing.



The UFC was brought up in the topic of the thread.
As for Chinese events they aknowledge the rules exist to protect the fighters.
The major argument of this thread was which of the two, traditional or UFC type training, prepares you better for real combat.

My thought is training for something makes you good at that something, and sport fighting and traditional training are different mindsets.
What it really comes down to is where and how you train. [/B]

[blooming lotus]

haven't read the thread and to be honest will never have the time, bt in answer to the original Q..........I'd say ufc, except for a little thing called the law so it's gotta be a little of column a and a little of column b...........ufc has what ever is handy for weaponry right???.........apply that to your kungfu and I think you've got it sussed :D :D

[reemul]

In China town (San Fran) back in the day, the Tongs held tournements in which there where no rules people got seriously hurt and from what I understand the winner had to take on any audience member that wish to challenge this final match was with weopons.

Long before, the UFC and much more brutal.

The participants where old school TCMA.

I did just fine in MMA

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by reemul
In China town (San Fran) back in the day, the Tongs held tournements in which there where no rules people got seriously hurt and from what I understand the winner had to take on any audience member that wish to challenge this final match was with weopons.

Long before, the UFC and much more brutal.

The participants where old school TCMA.



Sounds interesting. How many of these did you see?

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by reemul
In China town (San Fran) back in the day, the Tongs held tournements in which there where no rules people got seriously hurt and from what I understand the winner had to take on any audience member that wish to challenge this final match was with weopons.

Long before, the UFC and much more brutal.

The participants where old school TCMA.

That's the problem with most of TMA - everything happened back in the day. back in the day, masters fought challenges to the death. Back in the day, they trained 7 hours a day. back in the day, challenge matches may have even involved weapons, like the one you described. Back in the day, all practitioners were serious and had mastered fa jing and various other jings. What about now? Everything that happened back in the day has very little relevance if it doesn't apply now. Where are the students of these guys? you would think the tradition would live on, since everything else has. it could simply be modified slightly, since killing is frowned upon now.

Look at muay thai - it's always been a brutal art - back in the day, there weren't as many safety rules and equipment to prevent deaths. yeas, on occasion, hand wraps were dipped in sand or glass - typically only grudge match type instances, where a beef had to be settled - today, the sport is still brutal - that has lived on, even though it is safer.

I did just fine in MMA

Excellent. Which organization? what was your record?

[blooming lotus]

7*...exactly why I said what did........kungfu today is often modified to suit todays' needs and unless youre a die-hard traditionalist, chances are you'll never really be on weaponary.....where ufc comes in.......it's todays' weapons ( often whatever is available ) and while radical, it has a place .....even if it's just to learn to defend such......

[reemul]

The practioners didn't kill fellow students in practice, but where able to on the battle field.
Point being people dont have to kill in practice to be able to kill in battle. This supports my stance that training for something prepares you for that something and you can train for combat or train for sport.


I did just fine in MMA
That should have read I do just fine against MMA

I have never competed in MMA, but I have friends that do and spar with them and do just fine. I have competed in MMA type events and actually won my division against MMA practioners who utilized BJJ,JKD etc... The interresting thing is when registerring I got no respect, "KF huh, thats more dance than fighting" was exactly what was said to me. They didn't understand that my school was not a commercialized water down version and it was a shock to them when the fighting started.

I agree MA is not what it was back in the day, however there remain a few schools that are still old school, and they remain that way by not caterring to western commercialism and sport fighting.

Respect.. Westside ~Ali G

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by reemul
"I did just fine in MMA "


That should have read I do just fine against MMA

I have never competed in MMA,

I have friends that do and spar with them and do just fine.


What an interesting revision!

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by reemul
The practioners didn't kill fellow students in practice, but where able to on the battle field.
Point being people dont have to kill in practice to be able to kill in battle. This supports my stance that training for something prepares you for that something and you can train for combat or train for sport.

battlefield arts were largely weapons base, for obvious reasons. Sure you can kill someone when you have a kwan dao, jian, pudao, etc. On the battlefiled, I'm sure you'd find that more often than not, deaths caused were weapons related.

However, you are right, you can kill someone without killing in practice - a hard roundhouse to the head can kill. And it has. I've broken someone's ribs in the ring, even though I don't do it in practice. But, I practice that kick every single day with hard contact. I can't do that with an eye gouge, with a phoenix eye to a sensitive cavity, a flesh ripping claw, etc. For the people who were killied by bare hands on the battlefield, how was it done? my guess is that they were pummeled, had broken bones, etc. not gouged eyes and severely ripped flesh.


I agree MA is not what it was back in the day, however there remain a few schools that are still old school, and they remain that way by not caterring to western commercialism and sport fighting.

I agree with that. In all actuality though, we're not completely clear about how good some of the old ways really were...

[reemul]

Whats the difference?

I have experience fighting MMA people regardless of whether it was in a competition.

Also I have fought in MMA type events. They just didn't use the MMA label.

To SevenStar:

Practice is definately highly regarded, no doubt. The techniques in question where practiced as well. You say you practice kickes over and over and therby when fighting or sparing you are able to inflict damage. My argument is no different. Old school KF practioners practice on harder substances than flesh, perfecting technique, boxing and strategy play there part in actual execution on an opponent.

Example:
I have a friend who pracitces BJJ among other things, while sparring he got in close and tried to grapple in which he grabbed one of my arms attempting a lock. Before he could apply the lock I grabbed his windpipe and touched my fingers behind his windpipe and held it. Before I touched my fingers, I gave him a chance to realize the game is over, but he kept struggling so I gave him some incentive by touching my fingers together. At that point the fight ended immediately.

This has no bearing on BJJ just that in the US people get caught up in catchy MA slogans and propaganda against other arts, and apply stereotypes accross the board with respect to TCMA.

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by reemul
Whats the difference?

I have experience fighting MMA people regardless of whether it was in a competition.

Also I have fought in MMA type events. They just didn't use the MMA label.

To SevenStar:

Practice is definately highly regarded, no doubt. The techniques in question where practiced as well. You say you practice kickes over and over and therby when fighting or sparing you are able to inflict damage. My argument is no different. Old school KF practioners practice on harder substances than flesh, perfecting technique, boxing and strategy play there part in actual execution on an opponent.

Example:
I have a friend who pracitces BJJ among other things, while sparring he got in close and tried to grapple in which he grabbed one of my arms attempting a lock. Before he could apply the lock I grabbed his windpipe and touched my fingers behind his windpipe and held it. Before I touched my fingers, I gave him a chance to realize the game is over, but he kept struggling so I gave him some incentive by touching my fingers together. At that point the fight ended immediately.

This has no bearing on BJJ just that in the US people get caught up in catchy MA slogans and propaganda against other arts, and apply stereotypes accross the board with respect to TCMA.

You are quite the bad ass foolin' around with your friends. Interesting.

[reemul]

I have competed in MMA type events and actually won my division against MMA practioners who utilized BJJ,JKD etc...


Also I have fought in MMA type events. They just didn't use the MMA label.

So shut the Fv<k up!

[reemul]

My friends are quite serious about training
Just to clue you in One is a professional boxer who also teaches JKD and practices tai boxing.

Another is an instructor in JKD as well and practices BJJ and Tai boxing.

and the list goes on.

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by reemul
My friends are quite serious about training
Just to clue you in One is a professional boxer who also teaches JKD and practices tai boxing.Another is an instructor in JKD as well and practices BJJ and Tai boxing.


Wow. That's impressive. Good thing they are your friends I guess.

LOL

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by reemul
quote:I have competed in MMA type events and actually won my division against MMA practioners who utilized BJJ,JKD etc...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
quote:
Also I have fought in MMA type events. They just didn't use the MMA label.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So shut the Fv<k up!

Sounds like that kinda, sorta, is maybe a kind of thing which might be called a similar thing to something you would be proud of. Good for you!

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by reemul
Also I have fought in MMA type events. They just didn't use the MMA label.

what label did they use?


Practice is definately highly regarded, no doubt. The techniques in question where practiced as well. You say you practice kickes over and over and therby when fighting or sparing you are able to inflict damage. My argument is no different. Old school KF practioners practice on harder substances than flesh, perfecting technique, boxing and strategy play there part in actual execution on an opponent.

right, but I am practicing my actual technique in full contact sparring. you can't do that with the techniques you mentioned.

Example: jjj guys practice jjj techniques, but can't spar with them because they are too lethal. kano is his judo guys who do spar show up and kick their arses. why? sparring. they were able to directly apply what they used.

Example:
I have a friend who pracitces BJJ among other things, while sparring he got in close and tried to grapple in which he grabbed one of my arms attempting a lock. Before he could apply the lock I grabbed his windpipe and touched my fingers behind his windpipe and held it. Before I touched my fingers, I gave him a chance to realize the game is over, but he kept struggling so I gave him some incentive by touching my fingers together. At that point the fight ended immediately.

what position were you two in? were you in his guard? If so, he shoulda arm barred you as soon as you extended that arm...

[reemul]

what label did they use?

They used "No Games Reality Combat" all styles were welcome. The promoter went under from lawsuits from what I hear, dont know what about.


right, but I am practicing my actual technique in full contact sparring. you can't do that with the techniques you mentioned.

We full contact spar as well and therby learn to recognize openings and the opportunities that present themselves in which different techniques can be utilized. As I pointed out before, the fact that I don't rip at a fellow practioner is a choice. If I can rip apart a coconut husk with my hands, someones face is not going to offer much of a challenge.


what position were you two in? were you in his guard? If so, he shoulda arm barred you as soon as you extended that arm...

I'm not a BJJ expert and I dont resort to BJJ counters when grappling. So I couldn't tell you the names of techniques beyond my basic understanding. Which is as follows:

We did end up going to the ground because I went with the momentum of him shooting in. On the ground he ended up on his right side holding on to my left. I had my right knee in his back in a kneeling position with my left foot in his abdomen.

If I had to take a guess I would say this is not a position BJJ pracitoners strive toward.


If so, he shoulda arm barred you as soon as you extended that arm...
Easier said than done.
When someone wrapps there fingers around your windpipe it sort of puts things in perspective. One quick sqeeze and your dead.
Would have, could have, should have, doesn't quit cut it when its happening. I don't play the what if game. What is, is all that matters.

I am a Shaolin practioner, however I don't blind myself to the techniques and strategies of other sytems. I just look for techniques or strategies within my system to counter techniques and strategies in other systems.

[reemul]

Sounds like that kinda, sorta, is maybe a kind of thing which might be called a similar thing to something you would be proud of. Good for you!
Actually I don't care for tournaments other than training puposes. Any awards I have won, I have thrown away. The experience is what I'm after.


Wow. That's impressive. Good thing they are your friends I guess.
Dont quite knowhow to take that, passing judgment on someone over the internet is kinda of ignorant. I'm guilty as well though cuz from your post I figure your some MMA fanatic who got sucked into all the MMA propaganda.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by reemul

We full contact spar as well and therby learn to recognize openings and the opportunities that present themselves in which different techniques can be utilized. As I pointed out before, the fact that I don't rip at a fellow practioner is a choice. If I can rip apart a coconut husk with my hands, someones face is not going to offer much of a challenge.

recognizing an opening is fine, changing a tactic is something different though - that goes to what I said earlier. I train a shoulder throw the safe way, but also know a black hands versionwhere I break the arm as I throw. Although I know the black hands version, chances are that I will use the safe version, as that's what I do every single day.



I'm not a BJJ expert and I dont resort to BJJ counters when grappling. So I couldn't tell you the names of techniques beyond my basic understanding. Which is as follows:

We did end up going to the ground because I went with the momentum of him shooting in. On the ground he ended up on his right side holding on to my left. I had my right knee in his back in a kneeling position with my left foot in his abdomen.

If I had to take a guess I would say this is not a position BJJ pracitoners strive toward.

the position you were in is similar to bjj's knee on belly position and is something we use quite frequently. Ideally, you want him on his back though, and not on his side. It's much easier for him to escape if he's on his side, however, he does run the risk of you taking his back.


Easier said than done.
When someone wrapps there fingers around your windpipe it sort of puts things in perspective. One quick sqeeze and your dead.
Would have, could have, should have, doesn't quit cut it when its happening. I don't play the what if game. What is, is all that matters.

not woulda, coulda shoulda - merely training and reflex. the second your hand approached it should've been knocked to the side and controlled. That would be made harder as he was on his side, however his chin should have been tucked.

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by reemul

Would have, could have, should have, doesn't quit cut it when its happening. I don't play the what if game. What is, is all that matters.
.

LOL

Are you kidding? "the what if game" seems to be the only one you play!

Good luck with the coconuts. Maybe you can rip their eyes out!

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by reemul
Actually I don't care for tournaments other than training puposes. Any awards I have won, I have thrown away. .



I'm guessing that didn't eat up too much of your time.

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by reemul
from your post I figure your some MMA fanatic who got sucked into all the MMA propaganda.

Strange that you would be so bad at figuring, considering that is the mainstay of your training.

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by unkokusai
You are quite the bad ass foolin' around with your friends. Interesting.

if you can't practice on a friend or familiar you A. know can handle and will apprciate it, or B. cop it and come out smiling...........being that none of us ( cough cough) are saddist mass - murdering psychos, when else is it appropriate to train such things..............even with the restraint you use in a spar with with a friend?......................


how far can you go, and while we are here......how many hands on the board are registered and , though I know beyond a doubt I could kill you bare-handed if i saw fit ( not that I'd be likely to), and what benifits exactly do I get from such a declaration?????

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by blooming lotus

how far can you go, and while we are here......how many hands on the board are registered and , though I know beyond a doubt I could kill you bare-handed if i saw fit



:confused: :eek:

How's that again?

[blooming lotus]

like you couldn't yourself :rolleyes: .speaking frankly now..............

[Glimmer]

Ok, not read through all of the posts on this thread - but going back to the original question, i think it seems quite obvious.

The closer you train to reality, the better and more prepared you will be for reality i.e. if you want to learn how to swim, you swim. With fighting, it is oft frowned upon to go out and pick fights, so your training has to be as close to reality as possible.

Now unfortunately this usually isn't the case with most trad martial arts - so what you have to consider is this, are low contact drills or sparring in the kwoon as realistic as an actual NHB fight in a ring? Which is closer to reality?

Fighting in the ring at least introduces a number of elements that you will experience on the street i.e. fear, pressure, nerves etc. All these things can make a person freeze in the street if they are not used to the adrenalin rush, standard trad training rarely deals with these factors. Mainly, UFC style training teaches a person how to execute correct techniques while taking hits and while under pressure. With trad cma, most students are not tested in this manner.

Therefore there is a larger gulf between trad training and the street then there is between a NHB fight and the street, and suggesting otherwise seems like complete madness.

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
like you couldn't yourself :rolleyes: .speaking frankly now..............


:confused:

[Dark Knight]

how many hands on the board are registered and , though I know beyond a doubt I could kill you bare-handed if i saw fit ( not that I'd be likely to), and what benifits exactly do I get from such a declaration?????

First we will look at the registered hands thing......... You need to put the remote down and step away from the TV

And the rest of the comment is just as believable

[reemul]

Now unfortunately this usually isn't the case with most trad martial arts - so what you have to consider is this, are low contact drills or sparring in the kwoon as realistic as an actual NHB fight in a ring? Which is closer to reality?
Our school practices full contact and was doing so long before the UFC came along. The idea that cma dont do full contact, well for the most part in the US they dont, they have either been commercialized into the sport dance BS or some Karate practioners learned a butterfly kick and proclaims to be a KF instructor. I have gone to most of the KF school in my area and found none have full contact sparring sessions.

The closer you train to reality, the better and more prepared you will be for reality i.e. if you want to learn how to swim, you swim. With fighting, it is oft frowned upon to go out and pick fights, so your training has to be as close to reality as possible.
I'm not of the oppinion that UFC style training does not prepare you to fight, but training for UFC or any event with rules trains you to confine your thought patterns within the rules. And although we do not maim each other at our school we don't have a set of rules when it comes to sparring. Common sense and benevolence toward your peers is the only principle. This frees the mind to persue any and all techniques up to a point in their execution, rather then eliminating them all together. Unlike the UFC a nut shot is completely fine, because you are expected to know how to protect them when you become eligible to spar.

Strange that you would be so bad at figuring, considering that is the mainstay of your training.
What is funny you MMA guys think MMA is something new when MA systems have been training like this for centuries. The Shaolin Monastary (before the PRC version) is well known for exchanging knowledge with other MA systems. It not the idea of MMA that is idiocy just the idea that it is something new.

who wins a fight is dependent on many things, training, heart, tenacity, conditioning etc.. All BJJ'ers or MMA practioners are not going to get the best of all KF pracitioners and vice versa. To think that a KF pracitioner cant get the best of a BJJer or MMA is just ignorance. If you base your assumption on the UFC or MMA your limiting your hypothesis to a miniority in the MA community.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by reemul
Our school practices full contact and was doing so long before the UFC came along. The idea that cma dont do full contact, well for the most part in the US they dont, they have either been commercialized into the sport dance BS or some Karate practioners learned a butterfly kick and proclaims to be a KF instructor. I have gone to most of the KF school in my area and found none have full contact sparring sessions.

it's not only commercialized schools that don't spar. It's no secret that many traditional schools shun sparring for various reasons, and that applies to japanese styles as well as chinese. In japan, it was actually a SPORT style introduced sparring.

I'm not of the oppinion that UFC style training does not prepare you to fight, but training for UFC or any event with rules trains you to confine your thought patterns within the rules. And although we do not maim each other at our school we don't have a set of rules when it comes to sparring. Common sense and benevolence toward your peers is the only principle. This frees the mind to persue any and all techniques up to a point in their execution, rather then eliminating them all together. Unlike the UFC a nut shot is completely fine, because you are expected to know how to protect them when you become eligible to spar.


In all actuality, there is nothing wrong with confining your thought patterns, as you put it. How long have you trained? In that time, how many techniques have you learned? Of those, how many have you mastered? Of those, how many do you use in EVERY sparring session? I bet your thought patterns are fairly confined also, when you look at it that way.

As far as eliminating techniques, how necessary are the techniques that are eliminated? Keeping with your example of a nut shot, those often times are not fight enders. Adrenaline does a good job of hiding pain of such things. I've taken a nut shot in a fight, and didn't feel it until after the fight. Consequently, it didn't do the guy much good. These techniques that your thought patterns aren't confined to really don't leave you any better off than me, for example.



What is funny you MMA guys think MMA is something new when MA systems have been training like this for centuries.

No we don't, however, no they haven't. Not all of them, anyway. Many styles did hard contact drilling, but not actual sparring, particularly battlefield styles. They were learning to kill and could not practice such techniques safely.

The Shaolin Monastary (before the PRC version) is well known for exchanging knowledge with other MA systems. It not the idea of MMA that is idiocy just the idea that it is something new.

Once again, we don't claim it's anything new. However, it's odd that these centuries old systems that were founded on such exchanges in large part no longer do them....

who wins a fight is dependent on many things, training, heart, tenacity, conditioning etc.. All BJJ'ers or MMA practioners are not going to get the best of all KF pracitioners and vice versa. To think that a KF pracitioner cant get the best of a BJJer or MMA is just ignorance. If you base your assumption on the UFC or MMA your limiting your hypothesis to a miniority in the MA community.

you're turning this thread into something it's not. nobody brought that up.

[reemul]

In all actuality, there is nothing wrong with confining your thought patterns, as you put it. How long have you trained? In that time, how many techniques have you learned? Of those, how many have you mastered? Of those, how many do you use in EVERY sparring session? I bet your thought patterns are fairly confined also, when you look at it that way.
I think you and I are just coming from two different schools of thought here. In Shaolin KF You strive to free your mind so that all you practice comes forth without effort without conflict and without hesitation.
Given your practice as stated, it seems to me the focus is on primarily the physical, conditioning. The mindset seems to be for every attack there are specific counters. (please correct me if I'm wrong).

[blooming lotus]

work what you have to the safest extent you can, but when it comes down to it, an experiencd player has techs not just to pacify or maim , but to kill.no ego about it.it's life in the game...........I think what we're saying, sometimes It's just not practicle to train those things to te extent you could............what are going to kill all your kwoon members to try out your "head off spine " maouver......... there's an element of restraint but in working your regular arsenal ....it's probaby not a real good idea to go hard out ;).............sometimes you just gotta ( as I say to myself so often), TRUST WHAT YOU KNOW..............

[Dark Knight]

Lotus, how do you know the killing techniques will work? Have you tried them on someone?

From your comment of registering hands it looks like you have limited knowledge in the martial arts.

[blooming lotus]

is that right..........I only ask about registration because here in China there are so many adept players and notta one is registered............


at some point of your execution, logic of repurcussion to opponent kicks in , and death strike or not, makes no diff............


lets take a basic ninjitsu block outward, arm / shoulder lock, step under to rear, knee at spine base , rear triangle choke come carteroid-flow block-hold........ common sense tells us that if we twist outwards ( as the aim of the tech suggests ) ,,,you can guarantee his or her head'll detatch from their spine,

in practice though, I never go further than to apply the lock, just soft enough not to insight unconciousness, and feel some tourqe enough to make sure my app is on if necc..........

[Brooklyn Monk]

I support the opinion that TMA techniques simply don't work. if they did, a tai chi master ould go to the UFC and defeat Bas Ruten, or a Wu Su Sifu would go and win $150,000 by mopping up the floor with Mark Kerr or Randy Couture.

And please don't use the convenient counter argument of "True martial arts masters don't care about money. they care about teh art." That's just not the case. Shaolin monks have performed in martial arts movies, for money. many of them dream of going to foreign countries so that they can charge $150 per hour for classes. and anyone who reads my book knows about teh lage number of foreigners who have been sheated or ripped off by the teachers in china.

there is no question that these people want money. so why dont they jus go and win Pride or UFC?

TMA just doenst work. Muay Thai, Western Boxing, BJJ,and Wrestling are the only arts that can actualy fight and win.

[reemul]

limited experience.

I don't have to kill someone to know I can, not because of my training but because of who I am. Which is the case for most people. My training just provides the science to enable me to do it efficiently. MA Technique is science, if you do it right it will work. There is no time machine that is going to take you back to a time when the techniques had proven themselves to make you believers and it wouldn't matter any way to see someone else do it.
It seems your arguments are based on the fact that you have not witnessed the techniques in question. Nothing said here in the forums is going to change that.

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by Brooklyn Monk


TMA just doenst work. Muay Thai, Western Boxing, BJJ,and Wrestling are the only arts that can actualy fight and win.
I think this is largely for the reason that as opposed to olden day tma ( motivation asides), as tma split into so may styles, that you may or may not find in the one place, it's now harder to get a wholistically trained tma experience whereas ufc, crass and crude as I think it is, is more related to our current days' fighting maximaion needs and strategies unforunately providing a more rounded ma experience and covering more bases..................

[reemul]

To some the current Monastary is a fraud and lost what it once had. Now it is contemporary Wushu dressed as monks.

If UFC and Pride is all you base your assumptions on, again you are limiting your scope to a minority within the MA community. There are Plenty of KF who can hold there own against MMA. To say KF pracitoners don't enter cuz ther scared is ignorance.

[blooming lotus]

of course your right , and I 'm confident myself.........

on the monks............I guess we couldn't really claim to know what they are or aren't do and don't do in the moanastary,becuase for the most part,and shaolin-si training grounds and private quarters in particular, is off-limits to all but those who live there (ie : strictly monks and very limited piveledged few)

[Brooklyn Monk]

Reemul

To say I am ignorant of fighting or what people are studyiong or fightin in Asia is not quite accurate. I am a professional fighter. and I have been fighting and training in asia for about three years now. I also trained at Shaolin, and I saw the fighting they were doing. it was nothing compared to MMA.

It was nothing even compared to the Muay thai monastery in thailand or the boxing team here in Phnom Penh.

The reason I based my comment on UFC, Pride KOTC, K1...is that tehse are huge international events. anyone can enter, and yet tehse people don't. to me it's like you are saying i shouldnt base assumptions about the fastest mile on the out6come of the olympics. right now these MMA tournaments are the closest thing to a unified championship that we have in MA.

I didnt say the KF guys were scared. I said that they absolutely couldn't win. I may not have expressed myself clearly on that point.

[blooming lotus]

Brooklyn Monk

I know myself what they're teaching in Deng Feng and even at Tagou, and in that little saffron robed school with the wuseng figures / statues just before the temple entrance, because I was there myself, but how close , out of interest, and before I buy a plane ticket outta here, did you really to get to the closed monks' quarters and do you really believe, this is mind that you got an accurate take on what's happening there???

ps. will pm you for some decent live-in Aus connections in the nxt day or 2..........

cheers

BL

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by reemul
I think you and I are just coming from two different schools of thought here. In Shaolin KF You strive to free your mind so that all you practice comes forth without effort without conflict and without hesitation.
Given your practice as stated, it seems to me the focus is on primarily the physical, conditioning. The mindset seems to be for every attack there are specific counters. (please correct me if I'm wrong).

no, that's dead wrong. you are taught to be quite spontaneous. But, as I mentioned in the post you quoted, you aren't gonna master all of your techniques, and you won't be using them all either. so you are limited in what you will do. If you only train a willow palm a few times a week, or only in your forms, you won't use one in a fight, most likely. Take a judo practitioner. There are over 60 throws in the judo curriculum.

The avg competitor masters maybe three of them, and has about 8 that he will use on a regular basis. others he will use on occasion if the opportunity is blatantly presented, and there are some techniques that he will never use. the techniques they use are used quite spontaneously, but after years of competing, you have certain techniques you prefer and use most often. for example, when someone attempts a throw where they must turn their back to me, I usually counter with tani otoshi. Do I have to? know. I know more than that one. But, I do that one so much that 90% of the time it just automatically comes out. The only art I've seen dealing with specific counters is kenpo.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by reemul

MA Technique is science, if you do it right it will work.

Not really. Let's not forget that the science is a double edged sword. your technique may be perfectly correct, but if mine is also and I counter, then your technique didn't work. Perhaps MA isn't an exact science...



There is no time machine that is going to take you back to a time when the techniques had proven themselves to make you believers and it wouldn't matter any way to see someone else do it.

Here we go with the living in the past thing again... I really don't care what wong fei hung, chang tung sheng, harry wu, su dong chen or anyone else could do - can you reproduce their results? If not, then you really don't know that their technique will work for you - you are merely theorizing. That applies to any MA. If I had never stepped into a ring or competed in a shiai, I wouldn't know that MT or judo techniques were working for me, or which ones suit me best. I would only be theorizing based on what I have been taught. I prefer to have tested those theories BEFORE I am confronted in the street.


It seems your arguments are based on the fact that you have not witnessed the techniques in question. Nothing said here in the forums is going to change that.

tha's not true either. I don't have to apply an arm bar fully to know I can break your arm with it - that's obvious. I don't have to poke your eyes out to know that an eye gouge can be effective. That's obvious also. BUT, the difference between those two techniques is that I utilize an armbar every single day in class. I know that I can get myself in position to use that technique against a fully resisting opponent. You can't say the same about flesh ripping, eye gouges, etc. because you really have no safe way to train them.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
rear triangle choke come carteroid-flow block-hold........ common sense tells us that if we twist outwards ( as the aim of the tech suggests ) ,,,you can guarantee his or her head'll detatch from their spine

are you referring to hadaka jime?

[blooming lotus]

I don't know.....I learn so many languages and jazz I often forget and have to figure it out from language base than memory............some teachers didn't even use native terms at all ............hmmm.....working on some japanese language any day now


really .........just can't remember.....it doesn't sound familiar though.....you're talking ninjitsu but ha???.....can you use your own words and describe hadaka jime back to me???

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
is that right..........I only ask about registration because here in China there are so many adept players and notta one is registered............



Maybe you should be registered with a shrink!:rolleyes:

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by reemul
I don't have to kill someone to know I can, not because of my training but because of who I am.




:rolleyes:

[Glimmer]

There aren't too many techniques that are deemed ' illegal' in vale tudo/nhb, enough stuff is allowed - but i think this is a mute point really, because the importance lies in how you test a technique.

If you repeatedly test a technique while under pressure, in a big scary ring when up against a large ugly guy, then chances are you will make that technique work in the street against a lesser opponement. It is closer to reality then a kwoon/dojo.

With illegal moves, you do not get to practice them against realistic targets and while under great pressure, which makes them less likely to work as planned in a chaotic street fight. The failure of unrealistic training has been a major problem in the army & police for many years - because good people instinctively did not want to blind someone or shoot them and were frozen by the possibility of what damage they could do.

The MMA guys might still lack specific SD training, but they always compete and always test out moves under full pressure - which clearly gives them, as a majority, an advantage.

[Dark Knight]

I only ask about registration because here in China there are so many adept players and notta one is registered

What do you mean registered? My rank is registered with national and international organizations.

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by Dark Knight
My rank is registered with national and international organizations.

Boy, you must really smell bad!

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by blooming Idiot
I don't know.....I learn so many languages and jazz I often forget and have to figure it out from language base than memory............


You are full right up to the rim with bull****. Ain't room fer no mo'!

[reemul]

Your logic seems to be "how do we know a technique works if we don't practice it to its conclusion"

when grappling how do you know you can break an arm if your not breaking all of your peers arms in practice.

Brooklyn Monk:
Like I said Shaolin temple is not the same as the shaolin systems prior to the PRC version. So I don't refer to them when I speak of Shaolin. So what ever you witness at Shaolin temple does not apply to Shaolin schools elswhere.

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by reemul
Your logic seems to be "how do we know a technique works if we don't practice it to its conclusion"




That's a great argument, considering that you don't practice your techniques at all!

[reemul]

You belief is making you look ignorant. Your making assumptions about a school and a system you have never been to. Your basing your assumption on other schools or systems.

If your going to quote me or anyone learn to quote all the relevant statements. Otherwise your just taking things out of context.


Your logic seems to be "how do we know a technique works if we don't practice it to its conclusion"
when grappling how do you know you can break an arm if your not breaking all of your peers arms in practice.

Why don't you answer that.

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by reemul
You belief is making you look ignorant. Your making assumptions about a school and a system you have never been to. Your basing your assumption on other schools or systems.




Assumptions?! That's all you got!

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by reemul


"Your logic seems to be "how do we know a technique works if we don't practice it to its conclusion"
when grappling how do you know you can break an arm if your not breaking all of your peers arms in practice."


Why don't you answer that.

Ok. I don't practice breaking people's arms. I don't claim that as a special skill. I have, however, broken people's arms in actual confrontations. I don't assume that I can break someone's arm at will in any given situation, and I sure as hell don't offer it as an all-purpose hope/excuse.

How's that?

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
I don't know.....I learn so many languages and jazz I often forget and have to figure it out from language base than memory............some teachers didn't even use native terms at all ............hmmm.....working on some japanese language any day now


really .........just can't remember.....it doesn't sound familiar though.....you're talking ninjitsu but ha???.....can you use your own words and describe hadaka jime back to me???

http://web1.vattnet.com/judo/katamewaza/hadakajime.html

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by reemul
Your logic seems to be "how do we know a technique works if we don't practice it to its conclusion"

once again, no. Like I said in my last post, I don't have to break an arm to know it will break. But, I do know that I can get myself into position to do so because I do it every day against a resisting opponent. I stop once I am in position. I know I have the tech because my opponent taps. I can still do it with pressure and not break it. you can't do that with the techniques we've been discussing.

[Dark Knight]

when grappling how do you know you can break an arm if your not breaking all of your peers arms in practice.

We have seen arms broken in NHB tournaments.

Just like a good hook will KO someone because we have seen it in boxing and other contact sports (prob in your school if you practice with contact)

[Glimmer]

Exactly - my views are aligned with dark night and seven star.

Grapplers have a natural advantage because they can go all out, even in training and get into a position, under full pressure, where they can then apply a lock or choke. To go further and break an arm, I assume, is incredibly easy.

Plenty of people have been choked out in UFC matches, as have arms been broken etc. I have never trained in any grappling style but I can see the distinction, and also why they guys can make their stuff work when it counts.

A very intelligent/experienced MMA guy (TOI) on another forum made an interesting comment, when he remarked that you should judge systems by their weakest students. This seems pretty spot on, because in MMA you are tested to see if you can fight, in kung-fu it is mostly left up to the individual to find their own path and make it work for themselves - which possibly ends with the incredible kung-fu fighters being in the minority, while MMA gaining a better average for good fighters.

I think there is logic in there somewhere;)

[reemul]

Grapplers have a natural advantage because they can go all out, even in training and get into a position, under full pressure, where they can then apply a lock or choke. To go further and break an arm, I assume, is incredibly easy.
I know when I grabbed my opponents windpipe if I pulled hard enough, I could have ripped it out or crushed it. Fu&*%^ common sense. Grapplers don't go all out if they're not killing people. Others styles go just as hard. I have had a concussion bruised ribs and inflicted my share of pain as well. Grapplers don't possess a monopoly on full contact.

The fact that I have gotten the best of MMA practioners in past, suggest that all so called traditional CMA are not as weak and useless as you would like to believe.


Ok. I don't practice breaking people's arms. I don't claim that as a special skill. I have, however, broken people's arms in actual confrontations. I don't assume that I can break someone's arm at will in any given situation, and I sure as hell don't offer it as an all-purpose hope/excuse.
Well according to your confession and past comments on this thread you just practice theory.
Using the example of the tiger claw:
If I practice boxing skills, defenssive skills and can see oppenings or weakness in my opponents, just as easily as I can throw a jab, a hook, or any other boxing technique, I can rake your face. If my hands are conditioned, you will lose flesh and possibly an eye. I dont need to see it done simply because I have seen how conditioned hands have gone through harder substances than flesh and its application is executed through boxing skill.

I don't center my fighting around this technique or any other. This was just an example.

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by reemul
I know when I grabbed my opponents windpipe if I pulled hard enough, I could have ripped it out or crushed it.


hahahahahahahahaaahahahahaa:D


Oh, of course!

[reemul]

his windpipe may have been made of steel:rolleyes:

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by reemul
I know when I grabbed my opponents windpipe if I pulled hard enough, I could have ripped it out or crushed it. Fu&*%^ common sense.

And then you could finally overthrow the rich bad guy who has been bullying the town, leave your job as bouncer at the Roadhouse, and ride off into the sunset with the blond doctor lady.

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by reemul
his windpipe may have been made of steel:rolleyes:


The only thing made of steel is your imagination.


But maybe I misjudge. Tell me, how many windpipes have you ripped out of people's throats?

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by reemul
I can rake your face. If my hands are conditioned, you will lose flesh and possibly an eye. I dont need to see it done simply because I have....


Because you have imagined it so very, very well. And Danny Dojo at the strip mall assures you that it will work because "back in the day" pretty much everyone in Chinatown did this a few times a week.

[blooming lotus]

7*............:D :D ...that's the one;) ........add an otter twist and knee to base of spine and you have one head deatched from body........


for those who don't think they're capable, soldier on and see you when you get there ;)

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
7*............:D :D ...that's the one;) ........add an otter twist and knee to base of spine and you have one head deatched from body........


for those who don't think they're capable, soldier on and see you when you get there ;)


Who could argue with such an expert? You already have a mind detached from a brain.:rolleyes:

[blooming lotus]

okay...live in your "it's not real " fantasy despite logic,........


lucky I'm such a nice chick ;)

[reemul]

:confused:

Because you have imagined it so very, very well. And Danny Dojo at the strip mall assures you that it will work because "back in the day" pretty much everyone in Chinatown did this a few times a week.

reasons where stated, learn to read.

[blooming lotus]

you're so sweet ...............


and to be perfectly honest, as a teacher ..........they drive me crazy trying to find a methodof explaination everyone understands..............insults aside....I'll be seriously f*ked if I know how else to elaborate..........................

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by blooming idiot
okay...live in your "it's not real " fantasy despite logic,........


lucky I'm such a nice chick ;)




"despite logic"

Uh, sure. Whatever you say.
:rolleyes:

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by reemul
:confused:


reasons where stated, learn to read.


Tell me, how many windpipes have you ripped out of people's throats?

[reemul]

Go back and read.

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by blooming lotus

lucky I'm such a nice chick ;)


What a relief.:rolleyes:

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by reemul
Go back and read.



Tell me, how many windpipes have you ripped out of people's throats?

[reemul]

Thats all there is to it.

MMA practice techniques up to a point without doing perminant damage. So do other systems.

But when it comes to other systems, particularly those you know nothing about, they have go beyond what you accept of your own art.

As for ripping out windpipes the answer is none. But I have wrapped my fingers around a few, touching my thumb and fingers together behind it. This is the equivalent of you putting someone in an armbar and applying pressure, but not breaking the arm.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by reemul
I know when I grabbed my opponents windpipe if I pulled hard enough, I could have ripped it out or crushed it. Fu&*%^ common sense. Grapplers don't go all out if they're not killing people.

No, we don't. But, I've seen more broken bones in grappling tournies, mma etc. than any tma tourney I've seen. As stated though, the actual break isn't the point. It's getting the position and doing the break. the actual break is already there. It's a given if I have the technique and position.

Others styles go just as hard. I have had a concussion bruised ribs and inflicted my share of pain as well. Grapplers don't possess a monopoly on full contact.

I did some hard contact in my cma days as well. much more in my JMA days though. None of that changes what I said above. The contact issue lends itself to a completely different discussion - learning to take a hit, dealing with fears/adrenaline dump, etc.

The fact that I have gotten the best of MMA practioners in past, suggest that all so called traditional CMA are not as weak and useless as you would like to believe.

not really. the sun even shines on a dog's arse some days. It only proves that you had your day(s). The tma guys that got mauled in mma probably had their days too - but the nights of said fights weren't those days.

however, I'm not saying cma as a whole is weak. I see more advantages with mma is all.


Using the example of the tiger claw:
If I practice boxing skills, defenssive skills and can see oppenings or weakness in my opponents, just as easily as I can throw a jab, a hook, or any other boxing technique, I can rake your face. If my hands are conditioned, you will lose flesh and possibly an eye. I dont need to see it done simply because I have seen how conditioned hands have gone through harder substances than flesh and its application is executed through boxing skill.[/b]

you competely missed it...again. yes, you threw the jab, yes it connected - that's fine. but you are conditioning yourself to throw the jab. Hence, you will most likely throw the jab in a fight, as that's what you use most of the two. Also, the reach of the jab is slightly longer than that of a tiger claw. If you are at the distance for a jab and don't adjust, then your claw may not connect. train the technique you are going to use.

The way this differs from the arm bar example is that I actually arm bar. I get the position and use that exact same technique. that's what I'm conditioned to use.no distance change, no consciously thinking to switch the technique, etc.

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by reemul
Thats all there is to it.


You have built a completely hollow sense of security and ability around techniques you have never done, practiced, or even seen.

Thats all there is to it.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by reemul
But when it comes to other systems, particularly those you know nothing about, they have go beyond what you accept of your own art.

it's not that so much as it is bogus thoughts and claims. the example we had of a nut shot. I can't count how many people I've heard think that it's a fight ender, but the plain and simple fact is that that's not always true. you can't rely on it to be one because of that. If you think that it is always a fight ender, prove it. I can't count how many times I've heard people say they will sink either their weight or their chi and a grappler will not be able to take them down. Pure BS. If you stand by it, prove it. I can't count how many times I've heard people say "hit him in the throat, nuts or gouge his eyes" - I even heard one of my sihing's say it. If you think it's really that easy to get my eyes or throat, prove it. that 's all.


As for ripping out windpipes the answer is none. But I have wrapped my fingers around a few, touching my thumb and fingers together behind it. This is the equivalent of you putting someone in an armbar and applying pressure, but not breaking the arm.

I think his argument there is that you have done it as you say - a few times. And, if you touched thumb and finger behind, I'm guessing you did it fairly slow, meaning that the guy let you do it after you had grabbed him. that differs from how a grappler does it, slightly. He does those locks on a daily basis, not only a few times. The opponent's disadvantages body position stops him from fighting out of the lock, making it easy to perform slowly. If you are both standing and you're grabbing his throat, you may not have that same luxury of extreme positional advantage. If not, then he can fight out - and you may not get a solid hold on his throat because of it.

grappling rule #1 is position before submission. I won't lock your arm until you have been immobilized. Is your opponent fully immobilized when you grab his throat? If not, then that technique may not work the way you want it to...

[reemul]

it's not that so much as it is bogus thoughts and claims. the example we had of a nut shot.
Never said anything about a nut shot being a fight ender, I too have taken shots and continued fighting.

I think his argument there is that you have done it as you say - a few times. And, if you touched thumb and finger behind, I'm guessing you did it fairly slow, meaning that the guy let you do it after you had grabbed him.
Wrong, I use it in a sparring sessions particularly when people start grappling. They usually don't have much of a choice due to position and speed of application. It's not something you generally see coming.


If you are both standing and you're grabbing his throat, you may not have that same luxury of extreme positional advantage. If not, then he can fight out - and you may not get a solid hold on his throat because of it.

It's getting the position and doing the break. the actual break is already there. It's a given if I have the technique and position.
Same logic I use, we just differ on the techniques.

I can't count how many times I've heard people say they will sink either their weight or their chi and a grappler will not be able to take them down.
You didn't hear me say it.

I think his argument there is that you have done it as you say - a few times.
figure of speach. I'm very comfortable applying this. However it is not the mainstay of fighting strategy.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by reemul
Never said anything about a nut shot being a fight ender, I too have taken shots and continued fighting.

way too many assumptions - I didn't say that you said it.

Wrong, I use it in a sparring sessions particularly when people start grappling. They usually don't have much of a choice due to position and speed of application. It's not something you generally see coming.

the choice of dealing with the technique isn't what matters. Do they have the free range of movement to deal with it? If not, what position do you have them in?

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by reemul

Wrong, I use it in a sparring sessions.


With your friends?

[reemul]

the choice of dealing with the technique isn't what matters. Do they have the free range of movement to deal with it? If not, what position do you have them in?
Doesn't really matter, I've done it and It works. Though it may be to your dismay, It is a fight stopper.

With your friends?
I can only infer from this that you have pu$$ies for friends. I however don't.

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by reemul
Doesn't really matter, I've done it and It works.


Oh, so you have ripped out someone's windpipe! I thought you said you hadn't. :confused:

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by reemul


I can only infer from this that you have pu$$ies for friends. I however don't.


I have no doubt that your friends are tough as hell. They are your friends though, right?

[reemul]

... they're my friends, what of it?

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by reemul
... they're my friends, what of it?


That's what I thought. Have fun with your play time. Just try not to get in any beefs outside of your 'training' hall.

[reemul]

missed your point.

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by reemul
missed your point.

I'm not surprised.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by reemul
Doesn't really matter, I've done it and It works. Though it may be to your dismay, It is a fight stopper.


positional dominance? sure it matters.

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by SevenStar
Originally posted by reemul
Doesn't really matter, I've done it and It works. Though it may be to your dismay, It is a fight stopper.


positional dominance? sure it matters.



I think he's talking about the thing he has never used in a fight, or practiced, or seen. But he's sure its a fight ender. And who could argue with that?

[reemul]

I'm not surprised.
Well say what you mean instead dancing around the subject.

positional dominance? sure it matters.
I agree, my point is that against MMA practioners I have managed to execute the technique among others and have been successful.

I think he's talking about the thing he has never used in a fight, or practiced, or seen. But he's sure its a fight ender. And who could argue with that?
And you make this assumption based on what exactly?

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by reemul
Well say what you mean instead dancing around the subject.

I agree, my point is that against MMA practioners I have managed to execute the technique among others and have been successful.

And you make this assumption based on what exactly?


How many windpipes have you torn out again?

How many eyes?

Ripped the flesh off your victim's face?

How often has this happened?


BTW, I'm glad that you can enjoy playing around with your little buddies, but you don't have to mention them in your answer. UNLESS YOU'VE KILLED THEM! :eek:

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by reemul


And you make this assumption based on what exactly?

Uh, you told me.:rolleyes:

[reemul]

Personally I think it just burns you up to think a TCMA could get the better of a MMA practioner.

How many windpipes have you torn out again?
none, but I have applied the technique to the point that my opponent immediately gave up. They are not all my friends by the way. Either way my friends are not punks unwilling to commit to full contact. You again are making a judgement call on something you know nothing about.

Here is an experiment for you:
Forget about posistion defense and all that for a moment. Have a willing participant touch his fingers to his thumb behind your windpipe. Then come back and explain to me how you would get out of it before haveing your windpipe crushed.

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by reemul
Personally I think it just burns you up to think a TCMA could get the better of a MMA practioner.




Why would that burn me up? I'd like to see it actually.

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by reemul


none.

Right.

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by reemul
They are not all my friends by the way.


LOL

I like it when you change the story to make it sound more legit.

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by reemul

Here is an experiment for you:...

Here we go again. Let's imagine this, and let's imagine that. Now let me do this, and now I'll let you do that...

No wonder it seems to 'work' so well for you in your controlled environment with your trusted friends.

This just keeps gettin' more impressive all the time!

[reemul]

... you make sweeping statements across a wide variety of MA based on limited exposure or what you see on pay-per view.

Also like the way you use this limited exposure to make weak arguments for your case and take things out of context and attempt to make issues of the most unimportant aspects of statements.

[reemul]

I said do it.

Don't twist words.

Well, application is all you believe in, and you don't wish to believe my experience so I'm providing you with a way to experience it on your own. Nothing to be scared of.

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by reemul
... you make sweeping statements across a wide variety of MA based on limited exposure or what you see on pay-per view.

Also like the way you use this limited exposure to make weak arguments for your case and take things out of context and attempt to make issues of the most unimportant aspects of statements.


"limited exposure" ?:confused:

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by reemul
I said do it.

Don't twist words.

Well, application is all you believe in, and you don't wish to believe my experience so I'm providing you with a way to experience it on your own. Nothing to be scared of.


You know, if you lay down on the ground and let your "training partner" stick his big toe into your eye socket, I'll bet he could really do some damage.

I hereby declare the Big-Toe-Eye-Gouge-Attack to be the single deadliest, fight-stopping, oksoIcan'treallydothis technique in the world. You know, all the bruce-types in Chinatown used to rely on this technique "back in the day"*




















*"Back in the day" is a registered trademark of Unspecified Points of Time in the Past Co. Inc. and may not be reproduced without written permission. "Back in the day" may actually refer to things that never happened but would be pretty cool if they did.

[reemul]

You know, if you lay down on the ground and let your "training partner" stick his big toe into your eye socket, I'll bet he could really do some damage.
Yeah, but you have never done it so how do you know it would do damage?
By your statement I take it you acknowledge the body has weaknesses and therefore can be damaged by means other that punches kicks and holds.

positional dominance? sure it matters.
Now that you have acknowledged that the body has weaknesses and that techniques have been devised to exploit those weaknesses, as in your big-toe-eye-gouge technique, the only matter of difference becomes how we get into "position of dominance" to exploit such techniques, not the techniques themselves. Big change here.

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by reemul
Yeah, but you have never done it so how do you know it would do damage?


hahahahahahahahahaaahahaha!

Right.

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by reemul


Now that you have acknowledged that the body has weaknesses and that techniques have been devised to exploit those weaknesses, as in your big-toe-eye-gouge technique, the only matter of difference becomes how we get into "position of dominance" to exploit such techniques, not the techniques themselves. Big change here.


hahhahaaahahaa

So you are forced to admit that my big-toe technique is as valid as any of your theoretical techniques. Thank you.

You may refer to me as 'Sifu' starting now.

[reemul]

I acknowledge biology and accept that if you jam you toe in someones eye it will do damage.

if your able to carry it out is a matter of fighting skill.

My argument has been that there are many techniques banned in tournaments that are not difficult to execute that can do permanent damage and are banned not because they are as you say useless and dont work, but to protect fighters. Why CMA don't participate in UFC or other Tourneys is a matter varried principle. Not everyone wants or desires to be the UFC champ.

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by reemul
I acknowledge biology and accept that if you jam you toe in someones eye it will do damage.


hahahahaaaa

It is too funny that you are forced to acknowledge my 'deadly technique' as every bit as reasonable as your bs!:D

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by reemul
Why CMA don't participate in UFC or other Tourneys is a matter varried principle. Not everyone wants or desires to be the UFC champ.


Well, isn't that convenient?

[reemul]

It is too funny that you are forced to acknowledge my 'deadly technique' as every bit as reasonable as your bs!

You know, if you lay down on the ground and let your "training partner" stick his big toe into your eye socket, I'll bet he could really do some damage.


All this time you have been arguing that such techniques don't work and now by your own admission you acknowledge they do work. Even though you jest with your regard to your technique, you do however acknowledge that damage can be achieved in this manner. "I'll bet he could really do some damage."

As said before the only disparity is how you gain position or advantage to carry it out, not the techniques themselves. The topic was based on techniques not fighting strategy or skill.

I have remained resolute in my position your the one who just switched sides.

[reemul]

Well, isn't that convenient?

Not so much convenient, just a matter of common sense.

How is you progression to being UFC or NHB champ coming?

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by reemul
All this time you have been arguing that such techniques don't work and now by your own admission you acknowledge they do work.

Really? Or is the point that we only know about the likelihood of my BTT as much as we do your imagninary techs, which is to say not at all. I wouldn't rely on my BTT in a pinch any more than you should rely on your imaginary techs, 'cause the fact is niether of us has ever used, seen, or practiced either. The difference is, I realize the BTT is ridiculous and you can't see that your imaginary techs are as well.

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by reemul


I have remained resolute in my position.



Oh, I know:rolleyes:

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by reemul
How is you progression to being UFC or NHB champ coming?


Not so well.

[reemul]

Or is the point that we only know about the likelihood of my BTT as much as we do your imagninary techs, which is to say not at all.
The likely hood of techniques is low because of two things TCMA practioners not participating in such events and the ban on the techniques. Otherwise the likelyhood of such techniques is dependent on the fighters skill.

The difference is, I realize the BTT is ridiculous and you can't see that your imaginary techs are as well.
You don't know what I study, how I study, or how I condition.
Speaking on something you know nothing about is ignorant, and for what ever reason you refuse to believe the techniques that I have used with success do indeed work by creating excuses that because I train with friends, that somehow invalidates the application.


Not so well.
Is it your goal to be champ?

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by reemul
The likely hood of techniques is low because of two things TCMA practioners not participating in such events and the ban on the techniques. Otherwise the likelyhood of such techniques is dependent on the fighters skill.



So you imagine.

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by reemul


You don't know what I study, how I study, or how I condition.
Speaking on something you know nothing about is ignorant, and for what ever reason you refuse to believe the techniques that I have used with success do indeed work

You have been kind enough to tell me about your training, and about what you have never used.


Thanks.

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by reemul

Is it your goal to be champ?


Of what?

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by reemul
because I train with friends, that somehow invalidates the application?


When the extent of your 'testing' comes in friendly sparring with friends in a comfortable environment, it means very little.

[reemul]

Unlike you I don't discount the techniques, abilities and skill of other systems, which is what I attribute my success against them to. You however have been brainwashed with MMA propaganda and what you've gathered from TV. It could however be that there are no old school KF schools in your area. Either way you seem void of common sense.

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by reemul
You however have been brainwashed with MMA propaganda and what you've gathered from TV.

I have? I must have missed that.

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by reemul
It could however be that there are no old school KF schools in your area.


Ah, "old school". Is that related to "back in the day"?

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by reemul
Either way you seem void of common sense.


If common sense tells you to put your health and safety in the vague hope that something you've never done will make up for real physical shortcomings, I guess you're right.

[reemul]

When the extent of your 'testing' comes in friendly sparring with friends in a comfortable environment, it means very little.

Our philosophy on training is thus: They will not benefit from me If I don't push them to their limits and beyond and likewise.

We are not point sparring Karate schools.

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by reemul
Our philosophy on training is thus: They will not benefit from me If I don't push them to their limits and beyond and likewise.



I was going to say "don't kid yourself", but since kidding yourself seems to be your religion, I won't bother.

[reemul]

Making assumptions about people you know nothing about.
Making assumptions on MA systems you know nothing about.
You make sweeping statements on a wide variety of MA based on nothing but personal feeling from what I can gather.

and you wonder why your quest for the UFC NHB championship is not going so well.

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by reemul
Making assumptions about people you know nothing about.
Making assumptions on MA systems you know nothing about.
You make sweeping statements on a wide variety of MA based on nothing but personal feeling from what I can gather.


You gather incorrectly. And all of my impressions of you and your training are based on your own words. You haven't been lying, have you?

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by reemul
and you wonder why your quest for the UFC NHB championship is not going so well.


Is that my quest? That's news to me.


You are just full of interesting info. Must be that powerful imagination of yours.

[reemul]

All MA practioners strive to be UFC and NHB champ.

Oh I see, double standard again. Its OK for MMA artist such as yourself to train for other reasons than to be UFC or NHB Champ, but it's an excuse when TCMA do the same.

[reemul]

You gather incorrectly. And all of my impressions of you and your training are based on your own words. You haven't been lying, have you?
Thats funny because your reading comprehension is lacking.
You seem comprehend the exact opposite of what you read.

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by reemul
All MA practioners strive to be UFC and NHB champ.

Oh I see, double standard again. Its OK for MMA artist such as yourself to train for other reasons than to be UFC or NHB Champ, but it's an excuse when TCMA do the same.


Who said I was a "MMA artist"? I'm not on a "quest" to become ufc champ because I'm:

1) Past my fightin' prime
2) Utterly unprepared for that kind of competition
3) Sure those monsters would kill me
4) Sure my wife would kill me if they didn't

But I'm not looking for bull**** excuses and empty 'theory' techniques like you.

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by reemul
Thats funny because your reading comprehension is lacking.
You seem comprehend the exact opposite of what you read.

And you seem to be unaware of just how transparent you are.

[reemul]

And you seem to be unaware of just how transparent you are.

Yeah over the internet right.

Does anyone else have any relavance to add to the discussion
I've been responding to this troll out of boredom.

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by reemul
Yeah over the internet right.


Right.

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by reemul
Does anyone else have any relavance to add to the discussion
I've been responding to this troll out of boredom.

And now you are taking the high road? I see. A little late for that gambit, chump.

[blooming lotus]

you sure the chump isnt the bully who wants to claim victory over the "easy prey"???????...........................:eek: :eek:

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
you sure the chump isnt the bully who wants to claim victory over the "easy prey"???????...........................:eek: :eek:

Could you translate that from 'Crazy' to English?

[reemul]

Uh sure. Well unless you have something of substance to add to the discussion.

as for the easy prey comment, come get some.

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by reemul


as for the easy prey comment, come get some.



Ooooh. Scary!



Please don't rip my windpipe out!



Oh that's right, you can't.

[Meat Shake]

THIS THREAD IS ****ING GAY.


Thank you, have a nice day.

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by reemul
Uh sure. Well unless you have something of substance to add to the discussion.

as for the easy prey comment, come get some.


look ...........an ego is a valuable resource....just don't get carried away ha.................



as for Unko and his crazy > english request............. done with time -wasting conversations....................give your mom a call ha....and tell you love her..............then look her in the eye, directly before the nxt time you feel the urge to be a trolling/ non - sensical disrepectful jerk :D :D


Meat Shake............and such is life on the forum..................

[reemul]

I agree with Meat Shake.