Fallacies of Modern Day Martial Arts Culture?

[Fu-Pow]

In your opinion what are the most widely perpetuated fallacies, myths, legends and complete and utter non-sense in the Western martial arts culture of today?

I'll start....

-martial arts trained for sporting matches actually translates directly to street combat

-the Shaolin monks that currently live in the Shaolin temple are actually for-real Shaolin monks

-a one-on-one street fighting encounter should last more than 3 seconds

-90% of fights go to the ground

-a martial artist should never hit first, always wait for the attack

-so called "Internal Martial Arts" are superior to so-called "External Martial Arts."

-Taiji is a useless for health only exercise

-you can be "shocked" with Qi much in the same way an electric eel would shock you.

-Lin Kong Jin, empty or no-touch force.

[Royal Dragon]

Actually, I think there are real Shaolin Monks at Shaolin. It's just that there are a ton of Whu Shu guys in robs there as well.

[Vash]

- Martial Arts trained for sports-type venues can't be effective in non-sporting, non-training environs, even though they approximate violence in said training.

- Martial Arts which utilize sets/forms/kata as the keystone of their training are ineffective in non-sporting, non-training environs, even though attributes trained mainly in said fashion are conducive to effective response(s) to violence.

- Black Belts must register with law enforcement.

- Dry Land Swimming (http://www.carolinaorthopedic.com/new/Images/swimming.jpg) does nothing to improve performance.

- Karate is "linear," "hard."

- Kung Fu is "soft," "flowery."

- Martial Arts is only a kid's sport.

- That women can't/don't do martial arts.

That's the few that come straight to mind.

[Sim Koning]

-nose bone in the brain thing

-Thai Boxers always beat Chinese Boxers

-that the techniques practiced in forms do not work

-all fights go to the ground

-karate or kung fu techniques won’t work against a wrestler

-high kicks never work, even if you can kick faster than most people can react

-weapons training has no self defense value, and learning how to use a sword is a waste of time, even though nearly half of attacks involve a weapons of some kind.

[Jook Lum]

- Billy Blanks is a recognized Master of Tae Bo
- If your art isnt proven by going into the UFC, then
it must not be very good.
- A bought black belt (or its equal in other styles)is
as legit as an earned one. Like the black belt clubs
that guarantee a black belt in a certain amount of time
if you pay xxx.xx amount of money.
-Bruce Lee was the greatest martial artist of all time.
- Adding or changing a few techniques or ideas of a previously
studied style now entitles you to claim yourself the Master of
a new or unique style and rename it to stroke your own ego.

[Jook Lum]

-Also that MMA is a new fighting art.

[DragonzRage]

-You can become a great fighter simply by training in the dojo for many years without ever really fighting. (Sorry, no such thing as a great warrior that's never seen a battle).

-size doesn't matter

-Karate, Kung fu, Ninjitsu, etc are mysterious and deadly martial arts. Boxing, kickboxing, wrestling, and judo are merely sports.

-Shaolin monks and Samurai swordsmen were the deadliest fighters that ever lived (truly deadly men are battle hardened warriors...not monks meditating in a temple or self important aristocrats so bored that they decide to ritualize every aspect of their lives. This brings me to my next fallacy...)

-the whole "Way of the Samurai" myth. (Complete nonsense...samurai of the wartime eras practiced no more or less honor & self sacrifice than the warriors of any other culture. Samurai in peacetime bullied peasants and created a highly romanticized pseudo image of themselves to help them feel better about their pointless existence).

-muay thai boxers kick cement pillars and palm trees

-death touch

-Bruce Lee was the deadliest fighter in the world

-Bruce Lee was just a little Chinese actor who didn't know a **** thing about fighting.

-Bjj is the end all be all of martial arts, as proven by the UFC (Having grappling skills is important, but its not the solution to all life's problems. All arts have something to offer. Ignore any one important aspect of fighting at your own peril.)

[SevenStar]

TMA is too deadly for the ring

training in forms/kata alone with no sparring will not make you any less effective on the stree than the guy who also spars.

internal styles are superior to external ones

"high level" arts and techniques are superior to "low level" varieties

delayed death touch

groin shots are fight enders (they can be, but are not necessarily)

chin na will transfer directly to the ground - even without training these techniques on the ground.

sport arts are inferior to "combat styles"

bruce lee could beat tyson

a person will not be taken to the ground if they don't want to go there

sinking is an effective defense to a double leg

[Chang Style Novice]

- multiple attacker stuff

- qi blast stuff (yes, some people really do think this)

- no touch stuff (yes, some people really do think this)

- a high kick won't compromise your stability

- a flying kick won't compromise your stability

- knowing some party tricks makes you a real tough guy

[Ray Pina]

-- size doesn't matter

-- size matters

-- 90% of fights end up on the ground

-- fights rarely end up on the ground


Pretty much any blanket statement trying to define an unpredictable situation's outcome that relies on the skill of the two involved.

[SPJ]

MA culture may include ethics, why we fight.

Myths and legends may be exaggerated too much often time.

How we fight: methods of techniques

1. Punch and kick (Da and Ti)
2. Grappling (Qin and Na)
3. Tripping to fall (Dei)
4. Throwing (Shuai)

Any technique usually consists of 2 or more from above.

A techique in CMA always has defense and offense both.

When and where: tactics and strategy.

MMA is not a novel thing. All schools of CMA have strategy for indoor/outdoor and mid/short/close range fightings.

Tai Tzu Chang Quan: a summary of a lot of Wushu's at the time.

Praying Mantis was based on 18 Jia's.

Tai Ji Quan has a lot of ideas from different Wushu's in Ming Dynasty.

When you study Wushu, it make you aware of your limits.

Nobody is invincible.

Everything may be defeated.

Why, when, where, how are Ch'an of Wushu.

Wushu is study, study, and study. Gong Fu is practice, practice and practice.

Sparring is where everything starts and ends.

Study and practice are in between or preparatory stages for Sparring.

Bring out the best in you and in your art, you are the best fighter already. And of course, you win and you also lose.

You study why, how, when, where you win or lose. Then you are a better sparrer after each spar.

Fallacy is that you do not know yourself, you do know your limits or limits of your MA. You do not know why, how, when and where to fight.

Then everything is fallacy. or random luck or chance.

[David Jamieson]

- your teacher is the toughest guy alive

- your teacher has a lot of street fighting experience

- your teacher has trained some of the greatest fighters of their time

- martial arts people are tough from the get go!

- people who know martial arts can really fight good!

- 6 hours a week is gonna make you a machine

- your style was createdto defeat all styles created up until 1832

- you can defend against anything

etc etc etc lol...

[Tak]

Originally posted by EvolutionFist
Pretty much any blanket statement trying to define an unpredictable situation's outcome that relies on the skill of the two involved.

My thoughts exactly.

[Shaolinlueb]

Originally posted by Royal Dragon
Actually, I think there are real Shaolin Monks at Shaolin. It's just that there are a ton of Whu Shu guys in robs there as well.

there are a couple monks, very few though. msot of them are the older men who jsut sit and pray all day. most of the people there today are there because of the name and knowing they cna make moeny afterwards.

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by Fu-Pow
In your opinion what are the most widely perpetuated fallacies, myths, legends and complete and utter non-sense in the Western martial arts culture of today?

I'll start....

-martial arts trained for sporting matches actually translates directly to street combat

-a one-on-one street fighting encounter should last more than 3 seconds

-90% of fights go to the ground

.

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[David Jamieson]

hey smells like poo poo a.k.a unkokusai, you ever gonna contibute anything here or are you just a troll...who smells like poo poo.

you're a prime candidate for some bukake action with that name and attitude by the way. Lemme know and I'll hook you up with a yakuza film director if you get my inference.

lol

[unkokusai]

Well that's just fantastic, but you can keep your perversities to yourself. Thanks.

[Meat Shake]

"martial arts trained for sporting matches actually translates directly to street combat"

?
Unless you are point sparring, Id have to say it does. What about punching, kicking, locking, throwing, and submitting your opponent doesnt translate to street fighting?

[Sim Koning]

-Shaolin monks and Samurai swordsmen were the deadliest fighters that ever lived (truly deadly men are battle hardened warriors...not monks meditating in a temple or self important aristocrats so bored that they decide to ritualize every aspect of their lives. This brings me to my next fallacy...)


Many of the Shaolin monks were battle hardened warriors that retired and saught redemption and peace of mind by becoming a monk. Other monks did actually go to war, they even saved the emperor from his enemies on one occasion and its recorded on one of the walls of the temple.

As far as Samurai, it depends on what era you are talking about.


- multiple attacker stuff

The sad and somewhat scary thing is that almost half of attacks involve multiple attackers. This is because the attackers are usually cowards that bring their buddies along and wait until you are alone. If they know you are a good fighter they will probably bring weapons too. This is why Chinese systems emphasize fighting in multible directions, weapons and staying on your feet at all times and getting back up as quickly as possible when you get taken down.

[Fu-Pow]

Originally posted by Meat Shake
"martial arts trained for sporting matches actually translates directly to street combat"

?
Unless you are point sparring, Id have to say it does. What about punching, kicking, locking, throwing, and submitting your opponent doesnt translate to street fighting?

Not really. As one who has been in a fair share of street fights both before and after training kung fu I'd have to disagree.

Street fighting is a messy, sloppy affair. There are often multiple people and weapons involved. And I don't necessarily mean knives or guns. I mean whatever is laying around chairs, belt buckles, beer bottles, etc. (The last altercation I was in, I was blind sided by a beer bottle to the face and then attacked by 3 dudes. Fortunately, none of them had any real skill and so their punches and kicks didn't do any damage.)

In a street fight you either hit first and daze your opponent or you get hit first and are dazed yourself. Whoever gets the first good shot owns the fight.

Street fights are short lived. They start fast and they end fast. And the quicker you can take out an opponent and/or end the fight the less chances you have that YOU are gonna get hurt.

To train street fighting there are 3 main things to train:

1) Speed- the quicker you can hit your opponent means everything.

2) Vital/Mobility targets- ie eyes, nose, throat, elbows, groin, knees, you don't have to hit any of these super hard to disable your opponent

3) Power-the harder you can hit the vital targets the better.

If you look at what TRADITIONAL no BS kung fu trains you will see all of the above and in that order.

The traditional forms are essentially "compilations" of what sport fighters would call "dirty tricks."

I'm not saying that sport fighting is a bad thing. It's a good way to demonstrate certain aspects of your art in a competitive environment.

But don't get a false sense of security from training for sport because the skillset that use in the ring is not necessarily the best skill set to use in the street.

What is the best skillset for the street?

Well let's go back to the thousands of years of development of Chinese kung fu and to people that actually used kung fu for survival.

Where is it.......shhhh....keep this secret....its in the forms.

;) :p

[MasterKiller]

..............waiting for someone to ask Fu-Pow how he trains to hit those vital areas without killing his classmates...........

[David Jamieson]

UH... Fu Pow, how do you train to strike vital areas and still retain the concept of recycling your sparring partners?

done...awaits reply from FP or smarmy remark from MK

[Fu-Pow]

Originally posted by Kung Lek
UH... Fu Pow, how do you train to strike vital areas and still retain the concept of recycling your sparring partners?

done...awaits reply from FP or smarmy remark from MK

I don't train to hit vital targets at full speed and power with my class mates...duh.:rolleyes: :p

[MasterKiller]

.............waiting for Fu-Pow to say that if you do your forms like you are supposed to, you will be able to hit the vital area without using them in sparring..........

[Tak]

Recycling is for sissies. Just buy a new training partner for each class.

[MasterKiller]

...............To which, SevenStar will say, unless you train it full speed against a fully-resisting opponent, how do you know you will be able to use it in a 'live' situation?....................

[Chang Style Novice]

Hey, MK, who should I bet on in Sunday's fourth race? ;)

[David Jamieson]

ok, so you train 20 years in some such other thing with a poetic name like goose of a thousand years smashing fist.

one night, you get in a fight and it comes down to having to dispense with your opponent and to unleash a deadly vital point strike.

suddenly, you realize that "sh1T! It didn't work and he is stabbing me now!"

on the rethink, how would you adjust your training?

1.Bob and an indelible pen highlighting the "vital points"

2. Be prepared, be aware, avoid confrontation or environments where they are likely.

3.Buy a gun

4.Dance, dance like your momma and the mail man did while you hid in the closet!

heh heh, besides the obvious "vital points" Does anyone really have any confirmed information about this in any sort of realistic and credible light? Such as "I was in Grenada and I killed a beggar by punching him in the throat", Or "Back in the Nam I twisted a 65 pound man in half with nothing but brute strength!"

Or, well, pick a story, any story.

Frankly, I think that since guys like Master Ku are extremely rare these days, the information simply isn't as abundantly available as we all would like to think it is. Truth is, probably most of your senseis and sifus don't even have the knowledge of dim mak and if they did, they aren't likely to impart it to some student looking to make a guy wet himself when he pinches a particular nerve near his bladder.
:rolleyes:

anyway, I'd rather just keep doing what I'm doing and not even think about the fantastical story time for roger stuff.

cheers

[MasterKiller]

..............to which, KnifeFighter will quote endless statistics pertaining to adrenaline dump and the loss of gross motor skills, and will, at some point, let eveyone know he carries a knife everywhere he goes....

[MasterKiller]

..........to which, SifuAble will call him a paranoid, smurf-of-a-man, but will then say something useful and prudent to the conversation....................

[MasterKiller]

............after which, unkokusai will call SifuAble something nonsensical, totally derailing the discussion...........

[Fu-Pow]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
...............To which, SevenStar will say, unless you train it full speed against a fully-resisting opponent, how do you know you will be able to use it in a 'live' situation?....................

Well the simple answer is that you can't train the "dirty stuff " full speed against against a fully resisting attacker.

But I'd rather be training moves that would end a fight quickly at %50 power and %50 percent resisting than training moves that could lead to something drawn out at %100.

BTW, by the logic you're using no technique would ever be rendered "effective" until you had used it in an actual fight. Whether it was a sport fighting or street fighting move.

I don't agree with that logic.

You can train the things I mentioned separately and this is the traditional way.

You can then combine them in a no pads kind of free sparring that is usually about %50 power.

My classmates and I do this all the time.

[MasterKiller]

You interupted me! :mad:

[DragonzRage]

Riiiight...traditional kung fu guys have all the dirty tricks and deadly mindset necessary to fend off multiple armed attackers in a life or death street fight. Its only against INDIVIDUAL opponents in a ring fight where they end up getting knocked out in two seconds by the most basic boxing combo, or taken down at will and helplessly choked unconscious in seconds. But then a RING fight is not a STREET fight, so that doesn't prove anything. And who cares if Muay Thai boxers and grapplers can dominate and kick the crap out of opponents in the ring. All it takes is multiple attackers, eye pokes, and groin stomps and all those skills will be rendered utterly useless. Your only hope lies in the deadly secrets hidden in ancient kung fu forms. You're absolutely right buddy :D

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by Fu-Pow


. As one who has been in a fair share of street fights both before and after training kung fu I'd have to disagree.

p


Here we go...

Another 'steet hero' gonna set everyone straight on the 'real' thing.

"Let me tell you how it is on the street...blah blah blah"

Do people like this really think they are the only people in the world to get into a couple of scraps?:rolleyes:

[Fu-Pow]

Originally posted by DragonzRage
Riiiight...traditional kung fu guys have all the dirty tricks and deadly mindset necessary to fend off multiple armed attackers in a life or death street fight. Its only against INDIVIDUAL opponents in a ring fight where they end up getting knocked out in two seconds by the most basic boxing combo, or taken down at will and helplessly choked unconscious in seconds. But then a RING fight is not a STREET fight, so that doesn't prove anything. And who cares if Muay Thai boxers and grapplers can dominate and kick the crap out of opponents in the ring. All it takes is multiple attackers, eye pokes, and groin stomps and all those skills will be rendered utterly useless. Your only hope lies in the deadly secrets hidden in ancient kung fu forms. You're absolutely right buddy :D


Here we go...

Another 'steet hero' gonna set everyone straight on the 'real' thing.

"Let me tell you how it is on the street...blah blah blah"

Do people like this really think they are the only people in the world to get into a couple of scraps?


Bleah...bleah...bleah....blatant troll....bleah...bleah...bleah...diarrhea of the mouth....bleah...bleah...bleah....I know everything....bleah...bleah..bleah!!!!

You guys make me want to puke.....bleeeaaaaahhhh!!!!!

:o :rolleyes: :mad:

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by Fu-Pow





diarrhea of the mouth....


....I know everything....!!!!

You guys make me want to puke.....bleeeaaaaahhhh!!!!!

:

"I know everything"? Isn't that essentially what your post was? Street hero?

[red5angel]

- the kungfu magazine forum actually has kungfu guys on it

- Gene Ching has a hair do much like the Fonze

- Ralek is not like a serious case of herpes

- Ving Tsun, Wing Tsun, Wing Chun etc.... are spelling it correctly

[Fu-Pow]

Originally posted by unkokusai


"I know everything"? Isn't that essentially what your post was? Street hero?

I know you are but what am I?

Pee pee face!:p :rolleyes:

[3rdrateIMAkilla]

External just can't beat the internal. You'd have to show me 10 real internal guys getting owned. That would not happen. An armbar just works. Internal just beats external, it's unopposable

[TenTigers]

EVERYBODY DOWN!!!!!!!I AM RE=HIJACKING THIS THREAD!!
ok, so here are my myths:
1. there are real shaolin monks, (not simply second-rate wu-shu performers with shaved heads) yes, and the guy in the mouse costume at Disney is really Mickey.
2. There are monks from shaolin who do san-da, and it's really Kung-Fu, not simply kickboxing
3. Gene really believes all this, and is not simply capitalizing on the shaolin craze(c'mon, Gene, you've trained with Kwong Wing-Lam. You've learned real Kung-Fu. You've seen the real deal. you know better. )
.4. the monks from shaolin who emigrated to the US really know actual applications to their wu-shu, oops, I mean traditional Kung-Fu forms, just like the ones they always show in the articles-(tell me, is that not the lamest crap you've ever seen?) and that students haven't come to our schools who trained with these monks so they can learn to fight. (you want me to name names? ok, add any name to Shi _____)
5. bending a spear, sword,rebar,arrows,on your suprasternal notch (no, it's not your throat) is real ch'i-gung, and not simply a parlor trick that you can learn in two minutes)
6. lying on a bed of nails, or standing on sword blades is real ch'i-gung, and not a parlor trick (let me see you lie on ONE nail)
7. having someone break cement slabs on your belly, or your head, while you support it with your hands (do it without hands) is real ch'i-gung, and not a parlor trick.
8. dirty fighting is bad (all fighting is dirty-if it's done right)
9. you can make up your own lineage because nobody can trace a made up Sifu if you say he lives in H.K. or China, or Budapest, (yes, because none of us have heard of that new-fangled invention, the telephone, let alone the internet)
10. lineage proves your skill and quality as a teacher-even if you are the worst student who ever studied under the best teacher.
11, you can throw any crap together and call it omei,wudang, or attach it to the next martial monastery-(watch, you will see Hua-shan Kung-Fu popping up like mad) because nobody is actually going to check
there are definately more, but sometimes I bore even myself.-not a myth

[Fu-Pow]

NICE! SMOKIN!!!!:D :D :D :D :D :D

[TenTigers]

here's one-you can take kenpo techniques and tell everyone that it's a special forces combat system from Isreal. call it Mashuggannah..um, do.

[Sim Koning]

Riiiight...traditional kung fu guys have all the dirty tricks and deadly mindset necessary to fend off multiple armed attackers in a life or death street fight. Its only against INDIVIDUAL opponents in a ring fight where they end up getting knocked out in two seconds by the most basic boxing combo


Speak for yourself, we have several guys at our school who compete in the ring, winning by knockout. One of them is traveling to California to fight on Cung Le's team, and will be fighting one the Fairtex guys.


1. there are real shaolin monks, (not simply second-rate wu-shu performers with shaved heads) yes, and the guy in the mouse costume at Disney is really Mickey.


2. There are monks from shaolin who do san-da, and it's really Kung-Fu, not simply kickboxing

Thinking of that makes me sad :( there a few still left, like Shawn Liu and others like him, a few.

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by DragonzRage
Riiiight...traditional kung fu guys have all the dirty tricks and deadly mindset necessary to fend off multiple armed attackers in a life or death street fight. Its only against INDIVIDUAL opponents in a ring fight where they end up getting knocked out in two seconds by the most basic boxing combo, or taken down at will and helplessly choked unconscious in seconds. But then a RING fight is not a STREET fight, so that doesn't prove anything. And who cares if Muay Thai boxers and grapplers can dominate and kick the crap out of opponents in the ring. All it takes is multiple attackers, eye pokes, and groin stomps and all those skills will be rendered utterly useless. Your only hope lies in the deadly secrets hidden in ancient kung fu forms. You're absolutely right buddy :D

A wonderful post!

[Sim Koning]

I think some of us think forms are more important than they really are, you can learn to fight with out them obviously. I've always viewed them simply as a more complex form of shadow boxing. To me, the heart of the system is san shou, not forms, but most people look at it the other way around. They are also a good way to practice hand formations other than the regular fist. They are very important for weapons however, I don't know how I would remember all my weapon techniques without them.

[Chang Style Novice]

6. lying on a bed of nails, or standing on sword blades is real ch'i-gung, and not a parlor trick (let me see you lie on ONE nail)
Pleasee please please please PLEAAAAAAASE tell me this is supposed to be a joke.

[Mr Punch]

Er, CSN... Isn't it supposed to be a fallacy?

I mean I dunno, I've lost the plot but...


at which point MK continues writing the plot and further cements the abstract essence that is his vanquishing of KFM and getting one step closer to his subsumation of the forum altogether into his gestalt being... can we have a BWUHAHAHA?

[Chang Style Novice]

Oops - reading fast and sloppy.

My apologies. AFter looking more carefully it's much clearer to me what was meant there.

[Shooter]

Fu Pow is correct

[Brad]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2. There are monks from shaolin who do san-da, and it's really Kung-Fu, not simply kickboxing
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Thinking of that makes me sad there a few still left, like Shawn Liu and others like him, a few.
Shawn Liu's not a monk though :confused:

[Brad]

BTW, San Shou rocks :D

[Brad]

heh heh, besides the obvious "vital points" Does anyone really have any confirmed information about this in any sort of realistic and credible light? Such as "I was in Grenada and I killed a beggar by punching him in the throat"
I've been hit hard in the throat with a hockey stick before... I'm pretty sure I didn't die :D Hurt like hell and knocked me to the ground though. Also felt a very uncomfortable feeling in my throat all day :p

[Sim Koning]

Shawn Liu's not a monk though

eh, not really, but he is closer to it than those wu shu guys.




2. There are monks from shaolin who do san-da, and it's really Kung-Fu, not simply kickboxing

Actually it is, its essentially modified Shuai Jiao, its NOT muay thai with throws.

[Royal Dragon]

From page 1:
Tai Tzu Chang Quan: a summary of a lot of Wushu's at the time.

Reply]
Correct, in fact it's MMA from the 960's AD. Primarily though, it's Hong Ji of the pre Sung dynasty Imperial Guard mixed with the really old Monkey Fist (the one from 650 AD, not the newer PekWar stuff) and in some lines, internal principals from the Taoist influances + whatever techniques got added to it's main form over the 1000 years or so by the Shaolin, and the Ming dynasty military, as it was said to have been widley taught to them at that time.

The modern myth here is that it's the Original Taji Quan, Hsing I and Bagua all rolled into one-------->This is simply not true. It's a really old Long Fist plain and simple.

[Banjos_dad]

* Martial arts training automatically improves peoples personality/behavior.

* The days of karate guys wearing mullets ended with the '80s.

* "Chinese boxing lacks power."

[Sim Koning]

* The days of karate guys wearing mullets ended with the '80s.

LMAO!!!



I've been hit hard in the throat with a hockey stick before... I'm pretty sure I didn't die Hurt like hell and knocked me to the ground though. Also felt a very uncomfortable feeling in my throat all day

That must have sucked. But there is a guy at our school who had an uncle who died trying to break up a bar fight, all because a wild swing hit him in the throat. One my friends who is only a green belt in karate punched a guy in the throat and he had to go to the hospital because he couldn't breathe. The bone in his trachea was crushed. If a punch doesn't do it, and eagle claw grab to the throat will. There IS a reason why its not even allowed in the UFC.


BTW, San Shou rocks

sure does:)

[Mr Punch]

Originally posted by Sim Koning
That must have sucked. But there is a guy at our school who had an uncle who died trying to break up a bar fight, all because a wild swing hit him in the throat. One my friends who is only a green belt in karate punched a guy in the throat and he had to go to the hospital because he couldn't breathe. The bone in his trachea was crushed. If a punch doesn't do it, and eagle claw grab to the throat will. There IS a reason why its not even allowed in the UFC. Here's an MA fallacy.

A wild swing to the throat with a hockey stick didn't kill someone, therefore that's safe then...

A wild punch to the throat killed someone, therefore an eagle claw will kill anyone.

Extra corollary: an eagle claw is more dangerous than a hockey stick!

:D


Brad
I'm pretty sure I didn't die 1) Check your pulse.
2) Check around you... any flames, guys with odd feet and goatees, big toasting forks, Moslems?
3) OK, so now post back on the KFM Fallacy Thread:

MA makes you invincible!!!

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Fu-Pow


Well the simple answer is that you can't train the "dirty stuff " full speed against against a fully resisting attacker.

But I'd rather be training moves that would end a fight quickly at %50 power and %50 percent resisting than training moves that could lead to something drawn out at %100.

1. I have a better chance of knocking you out with a cross than you do of poking my eyes out.

2. I have a better chance of dropping you with a hook than you do of breaking my moving, constantly bent knee.

3. the techniques we train at 100% may or may not lead to a drawn out fight - just like the ones you practice at 50% - who's better off?


BTW, by the logic you're using no technique would ever be rendered "effective" until you had used it in an actual fight. Whether it was a sport fighting or street fighting move.

not at all - your logic imterpretation is wrong.

by that logic, you don't know what effect a technique will have if you haven't used it. I've practiced eye gouges (for example) at 50% or less against COOPERATIVE opponents. But there is a HUGE difference between that and applying it against a 100% RESISTING opponent. I don't know if I can do it against one in a fight, because I can't do it in sparring.

On the other hand, I've knocked someone out with a cross and broken ribs with a roundhouse kick - I KNOW what I can do with those techniques.


You can train the things I mentioned separately and this is the traditional way.

you make it sound as if "traditional" means "correct"

You can then combine them in a no pads kind of free sparring that is usually about %50 power.

My classmates and I do this all the time.

you gouge eyes, strike throats, claw skin, etc. all the time?

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Sim Koning


That must have sucked. But there is a guy at our school who had an uncle who died trying to break up a bar fight, all because a wild swing hit him in the throat. One my friends who is only a green belt in karate punched a guy in the throat and he had to go to the hospital because he couldn't breathe. The bone in his trachea was crushed. If a punch doesn't do it, and eagle claw grab to the throat will. There IS a reason why its not even allowed in the UFC.

sure there's a reason - it's a dangerous area to strike. BUT, it's not necessarily a prime target and won't necessarily kill you. I say it's not a prime target because of difficulty - a guy with his hands up, chin tucked, head and body moving, striking at you and does not want to be hit will prove to be a hard person to strike the throat of.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by 3rdrateIMAkilla
External just can't beat the internal. You'd have to show me 10 real internal guys getting owned. That would not happen. An armbar just works. Internal just beats external, it's unopposable

that goes both ways.... since it's so unopposable, show us those same 10 real internal guys fighting 10 real external guys.
In another thread, we have been pointing out several similarities between internal and external - IMA is in no way superior...you just do things a slightly different way.

Shooter - you a real internal guy, and you and your guys fight MMA - are all of you undefeated?

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Fu-Pow

But don't get a false sense of security from training for sport because the skillset that use in the ring is not necessarily the best skill set to use in the street.

What is the best skillset for the street?

Well let's go back to the thousands of years of development of Chinese kung fu and to people that actually used kung fu for survival.


ROFLMMFAO

[Mr Punch]

Originally posted by SevenStar
sure there's a reason - it's a dangerous area to strike. BUT, it's not necessarily a prime target and won't necessarily kill you. I say it's not a prime target because of difficulty - a guy with his hands up, chin tucked, head and body moving, striking at you and does not want to be hit will prove to be a hard person to strike the throat of. Exactly.

And even harder to eagle claw, which even with trained fingers is a lower percentage strike than a punch or open hand.

[Mr Punch]

Originally posted by Shooter
Fu Pow is correct LOL.

Gotta change my meds!

I guess that was a fallacy?

[omarthefish]

Originally posted by TenTigers 9. you can make up your own lineage because nobody can trace a made up Sifu if you say he lives in H.K. or China, or Budapest, (yes, because none of us have heard of that new-fangled invention, the telephone, let alone the internet)

. . .(watch, you will see Hua-shan Kung-Fu popping up like mad) because nobody is actually going to check

If it happens, you could use that "new-fangled invention" the internet to pm me and I could confirm that there's no such thing for you. Hua Shan is only about an hour and a half away from me and it's a totally awsome hike to the top. I've been there. Unbelievably gorgeous. Go at midnight and hike till morning, then you can catch the sunrise above the cloudline. :D

[omarthefish]

Originally posted by SevenStar


sure there's a reason - it's a dangerous area to strike. BUT, it's not necessarily a prime target and won't necessarily kill you. I say it's not a prime target because of difficulty - a guy with his hands up, chin tucked, head and body moving, striking at you and does not want to be hit will prove to be a hard person to strike the throat of.

I get it with surprising frequency when I play my Hung Gar. And I DO think the tiger claw would be much more dangerous than the random swing. But I'm NOT saying it would be easy. I seldom get it more than once on the same person. There's a couple of nice techs to get there. Black tiger, double tiger and others. The thing is, they are all close range techniques. They aren't long range strikes. You tend to get them when your arms are allready in contact and your avoiding a full on clinch. Then your hand can kind of sneak up quietly and then your grab the trachea. If you get that far, then hypothetically you could crush away. The great thing is you CAN practic against a fully resisting opponent since it is essentially a grappling type manouever, not a strike. Grab and crush. I've had it done to me gently enough that I didn't recognize I had just been "killed" untill he started squeezing, slowly increasing pressure untill the whole room could hear me wheezing and the gag reflex started to kick in.

[3rdrateIMAkilla]

Originally posted by SevenStar


that goes both ways.... since it's so unopposable, show us those same 10 real internal guys fighting 10 real external guys.

I wish. I'd love to see it, and admit I was wrong if I am, I just got this hunch, . But, ummm, the REAL extenal guys may be really good too, okay, no one thought Randleman would beat Cro cop. And you won't see me dominating all the leglockers, ground and pounders, boxers , thai boxers, or gaurd pullers any time soon. Their all good, but I belevie the internal wins out against pure technique . I beleive in an old small man's ability to win, and do amazing things to bigger trained guys


In another thread, we have been pointing out several similarities between internal and external -

That is good. The similarities should be focused on, rather than the differences.


IMA is in no way superior...you just do things a slightly different way.

This is probably the best attitude. But truthfully, I think the internal has it's advantages. But yeah, cro cop, fedor, Randleman, nogiera, can beat anyone, but at the same time , I just can't help but think there is advantages to the internal that other people don't have. Just like other styles have advantages too. It does go both ways. It's just you don't see too many Internal nutriders on the net. So you get me, saying this ****, talking ****. I think the internal is way better than most think, If they beleive it at all, and can do amazing things that just work. And I know 99% of you don't beleive me. So I'll keep doing it, one day I'll be okay if I get going on it right now today. But sorry, I can't be that guy who shows the internal right now, because I don't train hard enough in anything.

Okay, anyways, in the future anyone who doesn't juice themselves with steriods is going to appear weak. You need veins bulging out of your arms, or the fans will be dissapointed in your explosiveness

Also, I see alot of guys sprawling, then still getting taken down or pinned against the fence. Most likely because they are against very good takedown fighters. But I'm going with "wall energy" , and that's what I'm gonna work on. Wall energy like the Mindboxing guys do. Peng. You may think I'm foolish, but I think it's the way to go

[Sim Koning]

And even harder to eagle claw, which even with trained fingers is a lower percentage strike than a punch or open hand

Hey guys, I wasn’t trying to say that hitting a guy in the throat is easy, stop grouping me in with the, “my deadly kung fu techniques could drop anybody!” crowd. I was just saying, realistically speaking, a strike to the throat CAN kill you, so can a punch to the chest on rare occasions, sh!t happens. As far the eagle claw thing, its pretty common knowledge that someone can kill you by squeezing your trachea shut with his thumbs or fingers. Lots of people have been choked to death that way ya know. Its not that hard to do in a real fight, Keith Hackney did it against a wrestler and won back in one of the 1st UFCs (back when there were less rules).

[3rdrateIMAkilla]

Jo Son Do is deadly.

[Mr Punch]

Sorry Sim, I was trolling a lot yesterday, cos I was bored and nobody else seemed to be around...

Actually when you already are in (ie. short) range, esp before shoving somebody backwards/pinning them against a wall etc (I don't really want to crush somebody's windpipe after all!), I think a good ol fashioned trad throat grab is a reasonable percentage.

I've pulled it off in full contact sparring, and somebody did it to me for real!!!

Different dynamic to the eagle claw, but a high percentage throat attack with the right set up nonetheless.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by 3rdrateIMAkilla

But yeah, cro cop, fedor, Randleman, nogiera, can beat anyone

Speaking of these guys, did anyone catch pride tonight?

but at the same time , I just can't help but think there is advantages to the internal that other people don't have. Just like other styles have advantages too. It does go both ways.

I'm not saying it can't go both ways. What do you think some of these advantages are?


Okay, anyways, in the future anyone who doesn't juice themselves with steriods is going to appear weak. You need veins bulging out of your arms, or the fans will be dissapointed in your explosiveness

as a guy who is big and explosive from hard training, I disagree with that. Regardless, look at guys like fedor, saku, cabbae, etc. - very little definition, don't look strong, etc. but they have proved themselves and are respected for it. It's not a looks issue.

But I'm going with "wall energy" , and that's what I'm gonna work on. Wall energy like the Mindboxing guys do. Peng. You may think I'm foolish, but I think it's the way to go

Remember what was said in the other thread - several internal guys noticed these same principles in external styles. The difference is that we don't have a definition for it.

[Christopher M]

Originally posted by SevenStar
The difference is that we don't have a definition for it.


There's "paradigmatic concepts" (!) in external styles as well. "Space, base, and pressure," "Kuzushi, kake, and tsukuri..."

I don't think it's entirely accurate to think of these as empty words. Everyone's fighting involves the interaction of space, base, and pressure; training that focuses on them allows you to use them effectively, and supplies a perspective which makes some order out of the chaos of fighting (eg. you can understand what to do next, and you can understand where you went wrong in terms of 'space, base, and pressure.')

This is a perfect analogy for seemingly esoteric ideas from the chinese internal styles like 'peng.' I guess 'peng' sounds obscure when it's just a word, but so does 'kuzushi.'

[3rdrateIMAkilla]

Hi, SevenStar! I saw Pride last night! And you know what, I'm gonna take back all the internal stuff I been saying. Because Rampage Jackson is the ****ing ****! He just lifted up that Ricardo guy and slammed him! That was beutiful!

I'm mostly kidding about the steriods. I'm just jealous of those huge Pride guys LOL.

Looks like we may see 2 Russians in the finals. I guess Russia is just hardcore.

Peng is good. Everyone needs it.

As far as advantages. You probably dont beleive me, but the best way I can show it, is that is is kind of like the " chi of pushing hands 2" clip I linked in " the chi!!!!!" thread. Think what you will.

And obviouslt, I'll have to learn some sprawling, if I ever want to fight grappling. Sinking and pressing hips too.

If I'm saying one style is superior to another, there's a good chance I'm speaking from ignorance, or I haven't seen everything a style has to offer, and haven't even seen their best stuff

[3rdrateIMAkilla]

Hey check out bagua palm change 2! I'm a huge beleiver in tiny movements, or almost non visible movements creating huge results and internal "power", but Rampage did a huge slam that was similar opening and closing and back movement, plus he's big and strong too

here (http://blacktaoist.com/Master%20Xu%27s%20Yin%20style/Xu%27s%202%20palm.html)

[3rdrateIMAkilla]

Hughes also slammed Carlos Newton like that afew years ago and it worked. That was a cool match too. But if the slam doesn't work....... People need to find ways to slip out and escape too

[norther practitioner]

This will sound ghey, but, internal styles, have this thing called tai chi, or the yin and yang...

there is always some external in the internal, and vise versa.. without one you don't have the other... it is more real than just the eastern philosophy david carradine side of it.. but the thing is, you need to do it... which many internal guys don't due, but I have very high respect for the ones that do.

[Christopher M]

You're right: that sounded ghey.

[Merryprankster]

Chris M, the problem we have re: the paradigmatic issues is when certain yahoos want to talk about how "x has this and y doesn't."

Wrong answer. Different word. Same concept.

But those who are bears of very little brain will continue to insist on "something special and unique and better than what you do."

[Ultimatewingchun]

Saw the Pride fights...the slam was amazing.

And still can't figure out how Fedor survived the suplex - looked like he landed right on his head at 70 mph.

He was very lucky not to have been seriously hurt.

I think he'll win the tournament.

[3rdrateIMAkilla]

They are all the same, but, at the same time they are all different. And "I know that too" can get annoying after too many people parrot it.

[Merryprankster]

They are all the same, but, at the same time they are all different. And "I know that too" can get annoying after too many people parrot it.

Not different enough to warrant glaring stupidity.

Strangely, the people here who have serious experience in multiple arts talk more about their similarities than their differences. That should tell you something. They discuss the differences in terms of emphases, training methods, and approaches....

NOT in terms of principles and body movement.

[Chang Style Novice]

Within reason, anyway. Few people are describing how bjj and tkd are only seperated by their emphases, training methods, and approaches...

[Merryprankster]

Of course within reason CSN. I thought that was implied, but I have to say I agree with you pointing that out because you never know around here.... :D

[Chang Style Novice]

Did I ever mention that Taiji encompasses all of bjj? You can see the triangle choke application in cover-stepping if you turn your head sideways, squint, and wish on a falling star.

[Merryprankster]

LOL!

But I bet the grappling principles are there. Which is more the point I'm making.