Emei/Omei Region

[Jim Roselando]

Hello,


This topic will be an off-shoot of a discussion regarding Snake Body going on in the Weng Chun Sup Yat thread!


So, there are some who do not want to believe there is a possible connection with Emei and Wing Chun. This info. is not designed to try and persuade anyone but give a bit of info. I found when I started to look into that theory and why I think its more likely!


I started to look into different art that show roots in that region. After that I looked into their engine/details. We can use a few systems or methods as examples;


Ba Gwa: This art often claims roots in Emei region and various lineages state different descriptions regarding the body/engine! You can hear the body/engine often described as Snake Body by Park Bok Nam and other groups. You can hear the body/engine descrbed to as Swimming Body by the Gao people. You can hear the body/engine described to as Swimming Dragon by other groups! All coming from Emei!

Zhuang: Yee Chuan grandmaster Wang Xiang Zhai (while not emei but a good connection) states: The body is like a swimming Dragon and if Miao Shun own knowledge was Emei Zhuang then thats a good sign!

Yuen Kay San lineage: Although not claiming to be an Emei based art we can see in some writing that they also state; Swimming Dragon is memory serves me correctly and Rene can probally help me out if I am wrong!

So, if almost all Wing Chun claim to be a combo of Snake and Crane then would it be that the Snake is really the body and the Crane is the boxing? Many people say when asked about what is snake and what is crane this;

Biu Jee is a Snake and Bong Sao is Crane!


Well, I just can't go along with that as so many south fist arts have and use the term/skill of Biu Jee. Southern Praying Mantis uses that exact term for the skill so is the Biu Jee of Mantis Snake evidence in them?

Recently I recieved some footage of Fukien Crane and while the Ging was different from Wing Chun the hand skills were remarkable similar to Leung Jan's teaching. My sifu and I sat down and watched it and he also feels there has to be some sort of connection. I sent this footage to Hendrik and he was the one who told me it was Eating crane as I would have thought it was Eternal Crane and then I would have been die hard believer but even tho its not I can easily see we must have roots in Fukien region.


So, if Miao Shun was the person who combined his own knowledge (which could be Emei Zhuang as Hendrik claims and as the Yuen Kay San lineage claim minus the Emei info and replace it with his own knowledge) with the Ng Mui art which would be White Crane then doesn't show a more likely possiblilty?


Thoughts?

[yuanfen]

Good post Jim. But "history" is tricky business and I like to stick close to the art-occasionally looking to history only when it informs the art.

We area long ways from having a definitive history of wing chun-
in a way approaching existing good scholarship on taiji.

Correct- that tong long spm also uses the concept of biu jee- from their own platform. I know that you know Hagood but I really respect Mark Sifu's spm. Somehwere I have a video of him at a demo briefly showing biu work. I dont know of any tonglong connection to emei. And tonglong may be of more recent temple origin than wc.

But Hendrik's explanation of the synthesis of Fukien(crane) and emei(snake) elements in wing chun motion makes sense to me.

However- coiling is well known in Chen village taiji and that is pretty north of emei.

Sometimes great ideas can be independently arrived at in quite different places- without having a direct causal connection.

On the bong-crane and the biu snake-they can make some historical sense but the developed synthesis in wing chun leaves separate constituent factors behind. Bong can turn into biu and vice versa.

No dogma -just commenting on your post.

[Jim Roselando]

Hey Joy,


Thanks for the reply/thoughts! Good stuff!


Yes! Chen also coils as does some other Rou Jing arts.


There are only so many ways to power the human body! Be it with soft or hard mechanics etc.. Certain things will indeed cross over between systems. When I visited Chen Zheng Lei and Wang Hun Jai of the Chen village the suspended body (and how they powered their methods) was a good indicator or the art being Rou Jing. Shaolin arts also have their signatures!


So, for it to be Shaolin or whatever one just need look at the core and cross reference it with other that share same core. Thats why when I read what Hendrik stated in a discussion about knowing what cup you drink is an important point and why I start this off-shoot thread so we can all chat about it!


Regards,

[yylee]

Originally posted by Jim Roselando

Biu Jee is a Snake and Bong Sao is Crane!

Jim, IMO if Snake is the body, then it should apply to both Bong and Biu Jee, sound logical? So the energy body is not restricted by any one technique.

And, where can you find snake/worm like gradual movements in your WC training?

[Phenix]

Originally posted by yuanfen

However- coiling is well known in Chen village taiji and that is pretty north of emei.



Joy,

Chen Taiji's stuffs has a different characteristic with the emei stuffs.

Eventhougth, there is coiling. There are different way of coil.

Emei's characteristics with snake/worm gradual movement of finger/body coiling is unique.


just somethought

[Phenix]

Originally posted by yylee



And, where can you find snake/worm like gradual movements in your WC training?


every move in WC is snake/worm coiling. hahahhaaa. unless you dont do WCK ;)

So now you use my energy body term too. hahahahaha. watch out for our NDA :mad:

[yylee]

Originally posted by Phenix


So now you use my energy body term too. hahahahaha. watch out for our NDA :mad:

your energy body term? I thought these terms have been around for 800 yrs. Where were you 800 years ago? ;)

[reneritchie]

Some of our Kuen Kuit include:

Arms like Swimming Dragons
Body Like Standing Crane
Steps like Wheels of a Cart
Stance like Flexible Scissors

[reneritchie]

We also do everything with twisting power. I've not seen this in other branches, however (I don't remember if Koo Lo does this?)

[yuanfen]

"Eventhougth, there is coiling. There are different way of coil."
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
((Hendrik- sure. My caveat was about generalizing by word usage.))joy
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
"We also do everything with twisting power. I've not seen this in other branches, ..."
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
((Rene- again depending on the details of the meaning of "twist"..
may not be as limited as implied above.))joy

[yylee]

Originally posted by reneritchie
We also do everything with twisting power. I've not seen this in other branches, however (I don't remember if Koo Lo does this?)

Rene, sometimes I wonder, if it is gradual and "Rou", the twisting/coiling/snake/worm movements may not be so obvious to the observer. It is like saying: Sifu is doing what he says he is doing, but the un-trained eyes cannot see it....

just some thoughts.

[Phenix]

Originally posted by yylee


your energy body term? I thought these terms have been around for 800 yrs. Where were you 800 years ago? ;)

YY,

800 years ago? Gold Summit of Emei. Temple of Gold Summit, pray to Shamantabadra Boddhisatva. hehehhe

OK,

Simple, NDA and DNA are using the same alphabet.

If you believe that is the 800years DNA then I will not patten it.
If you believe that I make these all up with Rene :D then I patten the heck out of it and then you need to sign and value the NDA. heheheheh.

See, your choice. DNA or NDA. hahahaha.

Rene, we will be rich to collect the SLT snake sliding/cocoon moving booster pack key (similar to the Yugioh booster pack :D). which promise and guarentee will boost any SLT practitioner's performence by atleast 2x and more once for all in 4 hours, doesnt matter if you train for 1 week in WCK or 100 years (oops those will be dead already :D) . And it is money back guareentee. Let everyone sign NDA. hahahha.

we can IPO this SLT booster pack start up. See, I guess there will be say about 1.5 million people doing SLT? So, each will besay 400 bucks. if collect too little people will not value it. so collect more is better.

And the booster pack comes with pack 1, 2, and 3. So, each for 400bucks. and since all sign NDA. they can't teach to others. The new comers also needs to pay. So hahhahaha rich man. selling booster pack.

hahhahaa. YY, dreaming and I must be dreaming. I think that song is sang by the carpenters?

Ok, accept it as DNA, and I give it out free. Pack 1, 2, 3. and you only have to come to San Jose and give me 4 hours of your life. :D hehehehe

Oh by the way, you have to sign an agreement that you always has to believe in NG MUi and Niu Shuun creat this SLT art from emei. HOw about that free. instant atleast 2x boost in 4 hours. drive down to San Jose. you got a GPS? I can sell you one too. if you need one. the SLT booster pack GPS. :D

I am in China tonight nah not going to go out for singing KTV but thinking this IPO selling booster pack. Call it Booster CUP. what the heck. hehehhe. :D

[Phenix]

Originally posted by yuanfen

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
((Hendrik- sure. My caveat was about generalizing by word usage.))joy
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



Hey Joy,

Understood! hehehehe.


coil coil .....

Upside down
Boy, you turn me
inside out
and round and round...

that must be from Diana Ross. :D

[yylee]

>>Ok, accept it as DNA, and I give it out free. Pack 1, 2, 3. and you only have to come to San Jose and give me 4 hours of your life. hehehehe

-- no need to go to San Jose la, let's start a web site and sell all 4 volumes of the patented snake/coil/worm/twist SLT DVD. Guarentee boost power by 2x in 3 weeks, guarentee 3 million copies sold by the end of 2004. Also offers 4 hr private lessons, KFO members will have 5% discount plus Hendrik's autograph T-Shirt after the lession .... ah.... can have certified instructor cla$$es too. Yearly instructor certificate training camp held in Golden Summit......

[reneritchie]

" ((Rene- again depending on the details of the meaning of "twist"..
may not be as limited as implied above.))joy"

Sorry, I should say the way we do it I've not seen elsewhere.

"Rene, sometimes I wonder, if it is gradual and "Rou", the twisting/coiling/snake/worm movements may not be so obvious to the observer. "

The way we do it is obvious and needs to be, so if others did it, it would also be obvious. It's like the 1-fist-distance YJKYM. Other's might KY, but it's pretty easy to see if they're not doing it it one-fist, 'specially if you could drive an Austin... er BMW Mini twixt their legs.

[yylee]

Originally posted by reneritchie
[BThe way we do it is obvious and needs to be, so if others did it, it would also be obvious. It's like the 1-fist-distance YJKYM. Other's might KY, but it's pretty easy to see if they're not doing it it one-fist, 'specially if you could drive an Austin... er BMW Mini twixt their legs. [/B]

Rene, the definition of KY may vary among lineages, some might say it protects the vital part, some say it is related to legs Yang meridians, some say KY is like two long chop sticks extending from your knees; holding a small target in front of you. There may be others, but just to list a few that I know of.....

[reneritchie]

Yup, that's exactly what I meant.

[Jim Roselando]

Hiya Rene,


We also do everything with twisting power. I've not seen this in other branches, however (I don't remember if Koo Lo does this?)


Yes! It all starts with a twist of the waist/spine and shoots out! The body/limbs twist. I have watched the way Sum sifu coordinates his actions and its ultra similar!


Gotta run!

[reneritchie]

You are always running. You must have amazing cardio!

[Jim Roselando]

RR,


Just call me the Marathon Man! hehehe

Cardio! Now thats something I definetly could use!


Gotta walk,

[Jim Roselando]

Yylee,


Jim, IMO if Snake is the body, then it should apply to both Bong and Biu Jee, sound logical? So the energy body is not restricted by any one technique.

The engine powers the tools. Nothing is restricted by one technique!

And, where can you find snake/worm like gradual movements in your WC training?

The way the body moves!


Regards,

[desertwingchun2]

QUOTE]Originally posted by Jim Roselando
Hello,


This topic will be an off-shoot of a discussion regarding Snake Body going on in the Weng Chun Sup Yat thread!


So, there are some who do not want to believe there is a possible connection with Emei and Wing Chun.

I started to look into different art that show roots in that region ... We can use a few systems or methods as examples;


Ba Gwa: This art often claims roots in Emei region and various lineages state different descriptions regarding the body/engine! You can hear the body/engine often described as Snake Body by Park Bok Nam and other groups. You can hear the body/engine descrbed to as Swimming Body by the Gao people. You can hear the body/engine described to as Swimming Dragon by other groups! All coming from Emei!


Zhuang: Yee Chuan grandmaster Wang Xiang Zhai ( while not emei but a good connection) states: The body is like a swimming Dragon and if Miao Shun own knowledge was Emei Zhuang then thats a good sign!


Yuen Kay San lineage: Although not claiming to be an Emei based art we can see in some writing that they also state; Swimming Dragon is memory serves me correctly and Rene can probally help me out if I am wrong!
...

Recently I recieved some footage of Fukien Crane and while the Ging was different from Wing Chun the hand skills were remarkable similar to Leung Jan's teaching. I sent this footage to Hendrik and he was the one who told me .....

So, if almost all Wing Chun claim to be a combo of Snake and Crane then would it be that the Snake is really the body and the Crane is the boxing? ....
[/QUOTE]

Hello Jim, since you asked here are a few thoughts ....

To paraphrase the above,

1. You believe the origin of wing chun comes from Emei and Fujian White Crane because you watched some videos and Hedrick "told you" the name of a form.

To support your the Emei connection you quote Bagua (http://www.wle.com/school/bagua.html) kung fu followed by two sources with no connection to Emei. Yi Chuan Grandmaster Wang Xiang Zhai (http://www.eternalspringtours.com/trainingcenter/yiquanintro.html) (who you admit "while not emei" but you still consider him a connection???) and YKSWCK which you correctly state "Although not claiming to be an Emei based art.... "

In addition to Yuan Kay San, his Sihing (http://www.shaolinwingchun.com/en/origins/origins_ntc.html) doesn't claim any connection to Emei. In fact, the Wing Chun system of his Sihing claims Shaolin roots!!!

So tell us again how does this support an Emei connection to Wing Chun?

With loose connections like the ones above are you seriously confused as to why there are "some who do not want to believe there is a possible connection with Emei and Wing Chun." Instead of why don't they it should be why would they?

As for the White Crane aspect that's for another post.

-David

[yylee]

Originally posted by Jim Roselando

The way the body moves!


that's it? no "little" details? ;)

[Jim Roselando]

Hello David!


Good to speak with you!


Hello Jim, since you asked here are a few thoughts ....

Cool!

To paraphrase the above,

1. You believe the origin of wing chun comes from Emei and Fujian White Crane because you watched some videos and Hedrick "told you" the name of a form.

No! Thats what you are saying! I state a lot of reasons for believing in that theory and one was because of the research into Fukien arts. Not only did I look into Jumping/Feeding/Eating and other versions of which I posted foto's long ago on this site but also can show video footage as to the scary (and I mean scary) similarities in Hand skills to WCK with the latest footage. I have yet to ser another art as similar to WCK as that! So, it has nothing to do with a name of a form! Sorry.

To support your the Emei connection you quote Bagua kung fu followed by two sources with no connection to Emei.

I am sorry my friend but you must not be understanding what you are reading! I stated that when I started to look into that possible theory I investigated Emei region arts and one of which was Ba Gwa. From there I looked into and spoke with numerous lineage to find out that they claim Snake Body/Swimming Body/Swimming Dragon/etc.. All of which come from Emei!

Yi Chuan Grandmaster Wang Xiang Zhai (who you admit "while not emei" but you still consider him a connection???)

Yes I do! Why? Because Wang Xiang Zhai's art is a Zhuang based! With that in mind one can see if Miao Shun's art was Emei Sup Yee "Zhuang" then the two would indeed share similarities as all Zhuang based arts do.

and YKSWCK which you correctly state "Although not claiming to be an Emei based art.... "

YKS's historical records state; WCK was founded by Miao Shun who combined his own knowledge with Ng Mui's art. Same history as Yik Kam/Hendrik lineage!

In addition to Yuan Kay San, his Sihing doesn't claim any connection to Emei. In fact, the Wing Chun system of his Sihing claims Shaolin roots!!!

Thats true! So does Koo Lo WCK yet one cannot deny the fact that YKS's own history goes back to """"Miao Shun combining his own knowledge with Ng Miu's art""""! So, while they say Shaolin we can easily see that the history supports a more realistic evoltuion.

So tell us again how does this support an Emei connection to Wing Chun?

I already did! Hopefull the above info. helps you see that but if it doesn't then there is nothign I can do about that.

With loose connections like the ones above are you seriously confused as to why there are "some who do not want to believe there is a possible connection with Emei and Wing Chun." Instead of why don't they it should be why would they?

Read above.

As for the White Crane aspect that's for another post.

Start a new thread!


Thanks for the chat!


Regards,

[desertwingchun2]

Originally posted by Jim Roselando


No! Thats what you are saying! I state a lot of reasons for believing in that theory and one was because of the research into Fukien arts. Not only did I look into Jumping/Feeding/Eating and other versions of which I posted foto's long ago on this site but also can show video footage as to the scary (and I mean scary) similarities in Hand skills to WCK with the latest footage. I have yet to ser another art as similar to WCK as that! So, it has nothing to do with a name of a form! Sorry.


Hello Jim, I can see where your confusion is coming from. You say that videos and pictures show hand techniques similar to Wing Chun so that must mean there is a relationship. If you're looking at form that assumption is easy to make. But you yourself stated that Fujian White Crane is based on concepts not technique. Now you say the techniques (you saw on the video)
point to a connection ?? :confused: You simply can't have it both ways.




Originally posted by Jim Roselando

I am sorry my friend but you must not be understanding what you are reading! I stated that when I started to look into that possible theory I investigated Emei region arts and one of which was Ba Gwa. From there I looked into and spoke with numerous lineage to find out that they claim Snake Body/Swimming Body/Swimming Dragon/etc.. All of which come from Emei!

Actually my friend, I am sorry to say but, it may be that you don't understand what you are writing. Terms like "Snake Body/Swimming Body/Swimming Dragon/etc.. " are common terms in chinese kung fu. Without training the system many false assumptions arise, such as yours. This is due to the fact that you actually posses no first hand knowledge or experience regarding the inherent relationship between the terms and the physical activity they pertain to. (thats how kuen kuits work.) Second, those terms without that experience are empty!!! Those terms are soley form!!! They aid and are an intregral part in the transmition of each individual system they are contained in/originated from. In short "dragon body" means something entirely different to a Ba Gwa Zhang practitioner than it does a practitioner of Lung Ying Kuen (http://www.lungyingjingjung.com/schoolinfo.html).




Originally posted by Jim Roselando

Yi Chuan Grandmaster Wang Xiang Zhai (who you admit "while not emei" but you still consider him a connection???)

Yes I do! Why? Because Wang Xiang Zhai's art is a Zhuang based! With that in mind one can see if Miao Shun's art was Emei Sup Yee "Zhuang" then the two would indeed share similarities as all Zhuang based arts do.

Are you serious???? Don't you see the false logic of your hypothesis??? To start with as you state Yi Chuan of Wang Xiang Zhai (http://www.eternalspringtours.com/trainingcenter/yiquanintro.html) is however,Miao Shun's (http://www.wingchunkuen.com/who/founders/miushun.html) art cannot be verified for he part of fokelore and myth.




Originally posted by Jim Roselando

and YKSWCK which you correctly state "Although not claiming to be an Emei based art.... "

YKS's historical records state; WCK was founded by Miao Shun who combined his own knowledge with Ng Mui's art. Same history as Yik Kam/Hendrik lineage!

But only Hendrick claims Miao shun's art to be Emei. Unless this is the legacy for Cho Ga Wing Chun and all Yik Kam White Crane Wing Chun players.

I know from Hendrick's Sihing, Wong sifu, their sifu Cho Hung Choi claims Wing Chun to be Shaolin. He states that the Fa Kuen set taught (http://www.wingchunkuen.com/what/systems/choga.html) in Cho Ga WC is a Wing Chun set from Shaolin.



Originally posted by Jim Roselando
In addition to Yuan Kay San, his Sihing doesn't claim any connection to Emei. In fact, the Wing Chun system of his Sihing claims Shaolin roots!!!

Thats true! So does Koo Lo WCK yet one cannot deny the fact that YKS's own history goes back to """"Miao Shun combining his own knowledge with Ng Miu's art""""! So, while they say Shaolin we can easily see that the history supports a more realistic evoltuion.


So while all the Wing Chun folklore points to Shaolin, 99.9% of Wing Chun families today claim Shaolin roots, Wong Wa Bo/Leung Yi Tai/ Dai Fa Min Gam/ Fung Sui Ching etc ... all claim Shaolin and never mention Wing Chun originating with Fujian White Crane or Zhuang - you, Jim Roselando somehow made a connection none of the Ancestors did? Hmmmm ......




Originally posted by Jim Roselando

So tell us again how does this support an Emei connection to Wing Chun?

I already did! Hopefull the above info. helps you see that but if it doesn't then there is nothign I can do about that.

No you haven't Jim. You have thrown a lot of words around but not shown how your examples support an Emei connection to Wing Chun. And you better do something about it because it is your theory.


-David

[t_niehoff]

I've come out of my self-imposed, KFO exile to interject a few things on this (reoccuring) topic.

Firstly, White Crane Kuen claims Shaolin origins. So, if WCK has its roots in White Crane as some believe then those roots extend back to Shaolin. (Interestingly, many WCK origin-stories are very similar to White Crane's and its offshoots' origin stories: from Shaolin, a woman learning the art, etc.).

Secondly, there are many variables to be considered in any inquiry as to whether different kuen faats are related, including movement characteristics, terminology, conceptual underpinnings, timelines, locations, oral traditions, etc. With regard to movement characteristics, if one hasn't seen the various white crane lineages or ermei 12 jong so as to permit them to make a comparison, any comments or conclusions would simply be uninformed. This is not to suggest that we should not draw our own conclusions based on information available to us, but we should keep in mind that any hypothesis, including those we hold dear, is tentative. And when we do draw conclusions, it is helpful to keep in mind that they are our conclusions, not "the truth" however inescapable we believe that conclusion is.

FWIW, many knowledgeable White Crane practitioners consider WCK to be a offshoot of their art (see Yang, Jwing-Ming's compilation book "Shaolin White Crane" as an example). Obviously this isn't definitive but does suggest further inquiry may be warranted.

Thirdly, ad hominem attacks, in their various forms, are a simply a sign that the person making them has been intellectually defeated; otherwise, sound, rational argument as opposed to these types of fallacies would be put forth.

Fourthly, one factor to always consider in weighing any person's position is their investment in that position, i.e., what is at stake for them. And I don't just mean financially.

Fifthly, Joseph Campbell (author of "The Power of Myth", etc.) has warned us of "the danger in taking our metaphors literally." If you don't know what he (or I) am talking about, I suggest it may be worthwhile for you to read Campbell. :)

Regards,

Terence

[Jim Roselando]

David,


I am not going to reply to your full post as it reminds me of the past discussions we had that will end up going no place. I will address a couple of points. JR

But you yourself stated that Fujian White Crane is based on concepts not technique.

No! Thats what you stated! I told you that White Crane is based on Ging patterns and even Yang Jwing Ming (who has numerous years and research into White Crane) state this!! Terence gave you a good book to buy! Shaolin White Crane by YJM! Perhaps thats the Shaolin ancestor roots you search for! JR

I am sorry to say but, it may be that you don't understand what you are writing. Terms like "Snake Body/Swimming Body/Swimming Dragon/etc.. " are common terms in chinese kung fu. Without training the system many false assumptions arise, such as yours. This is due to the fact that you actually posses no first hand knowledge or experience regarding the inherent relationship between the terms and the physical activity they pertain to.

I guess I will have to let my Gao and other Ba Gwa friends know that what they told me I could not understand. Thanks for helping me out! hehe JR

Are you serious???? Don't you see the false logic of your hypothesis??? To start with as you state Yi Chuan of Wang Xiang Zhai is however,Miao Shun's art cannot be verified for he part of fokelore and myth.

Zhuang based arts are Zhuang based arts. All are similar. WCK SLT stands in a form of Zhuang and the Kuit point to it. Like it or not its ok with me. JR

So while all the Wing Chun folklore points to Shaolin, 99.9% of Wing Chun families today claim Shaolin roots, Wong Wa Bo/Leung Yi Tai/ Dai Fa Min Gam/ Fung Sui Ching etc ... all claim Shaolin and never mention Wing Chun originating with Fujian White Crane or Zhuang - you, Jim Roselando somehow made a connection none of the Ancestors did? Hmmmm ......


I made no connection but like to think about what everyone state as their evidience and yes all Wing Chun (well almost all known lineage) claim to come from Shaolin. Or shall we say almost all Kung Fu claims that! What do they also claim? Crane and Snake but I guess that doesn't mean anything. JR

You have thrown a lot of words around but not shown how your examples support an Emei connection to Wing Chun. And you better do something about it because it is your theory.

Belive what you want amigo! If you feel that arts can just Poof and majically appear then that is fine. If you feel that (as you said many times); Only the dead ancestors know! Then thats cool to.

Nice speaking with you!


Regards,

[PaulH]

I found this true so far. I crane my neck for a closer look at some interesting posts and snake myself silently away when the grass is burning! =)

[yuanfen]

Hey Paul H- you learn a lot that way!

Joy

[PaulH]

You know me, Joy! =)

[yuanfen]

Hey Paul H- you learn a lot that way!

Joy

[reneritchie]

"In addition to Yuan Kay San, his Sihing doesn't claim any connection to Emei. In fact, the Wing Chun system of his Sihing claims Shaolin roots!!!"

That site has little if nothing to do with Yuen Chai-Wan's history. However, in legends, the Yuen family, like much of WCK, has been linked back to 'Buddhist Nun Ng Mui", whom is most often said to have been a Shaolin Nun. But that shouldn't be confused with history.

There are some Chinese writings which link WCK or parts thereof back to Emei. One claimed the Gulao 3.5 pole came from Emei. Another claimed breathing work in WCK came from Emei.

Most simply stuck with the legends or didn't care.

In the end, high level TCMA tend towards the similar, and based on an individuals own experience, they can "see" what similarities they choose to see. Some swear Fujian White Crane is exactly the same. Some Hakka fist. Some Hung Ga. Some other stuff. It's all eye of the beholder.

"He states that the Fa Kuen set taught in Cho Ga WC is a Wing Chun set from Shaolin."

Wong has an interesting take on WCK. He's said a lot of very strange things (like Yip Kin being the son of Yip Man), and otherwise much factually incorrect info on Cho and WCK in general. Fa Kuen looked to me like village boxing, the type of thing you see put together from a mish-mash of other stuff (no offense Hendrik) spread across the South.

And Cho does have 3 forms, just like the rest of WCK, they just don't bother to take a rest in between them like most of us :) (or was that a troll? If so, ignore the response :)

[Phenix]

Originally posted by reneritchie

"He states that the Fa Kuen set taught in Cho Ga WC is a Wing Chun set from Shaolin."

Wong has an interesting take on WCK. He's said a lot of very strange things (like Yip Kin being the son of Yip Man), and otherwise much factually incorrect info on Cho and WCK in general. Fa Kuen looked to me like village boxing, the type of thing you see put together from a mish-mash of other stuff (no offense Hendrik) spread across the South.

And Cho does have 3 forms, just like the rest of WCK, they just don't bother to take a rest in between them like most of us :) (or was that a troll? If so, ignore the response :)


Rene,

Thanks. I agree with you.


Fa Kuen is an application of SLT with a certain hand technics.
IT has nothing to do with Wong Romance of Shao Lin.


As for the name Fa Kuen. There is a meaning why it is called Fa. I am not going to release it here. Since it is Cho family's internal.


however, what I can said is, as story or Legend had it that the Name Fa link to a person in Chinese history.....who live in the same time with Lu Sei-Niong the woman hero who assasin the Young Zhen emperor, and it has a special meaning which makes it the characteristics of the set.


I am in Taiwan in the mean time. Going out meeting Some White Crane friends. :D

[desertwingchun2]

Originally posted by t_niehoff
I've come out of my self-imposed, KFO exile to interject a few things on this (reoccuring) topic.

Firstly, White Crane Kuen claims Shaolin origins. So, if WCK has its roots in White Crane as some believe then those roots extend back to Shaolin. (Interestingly, many WCK origin-stories are very similar to White Crane's and its offshoots' origin stories: from Shaolin, a woman learning the art, etc.).

Great but that statement has no bearing on my discussion with Jim. Jim saw some videos and through the similarity of hand techniques he came to the conclusion Wing Chun is a derivitive of White Crane. My point is was and will continue to be form is empty.

For example: Jim says "... can show video footage as to the scary (and I mean scary) similarities in Hand skills to WCK with the latest footage. I have yet to see another art as similar to WCK as that" Does that mean when he sees a Lau Ga sets he will then say Lau Ga is connected to Wing Chun?? This can go on and on ....




Originally posted by t_niehoff

FWIW, many knowledgeable White Crane practitioners consider WCK to be a offshoot of their art (see Yang, Jwing-Ming's compilation book "Shaolin White Crane" as an example). Obviously this isn't definitive but does suggest further inquiry may be warranted.

One does not qualify as many. Where much of the confusion arises from is the name given to the family White Crane gung fu sysytem of the Fong clan. They are from Yong Chun(Wing Chun) County. Hence, they call their system White Crane Wing Chun. Others within the White Crane community may refer to it as Fong's Wing Chun meaning White Crane from the Fong family of Wing Chun County.




Originally posted by t_niehoff

Thirdly, ad hominem attacks, in their various forms, are a simply a sign that the person making them has been intellectually defeated; otherwise, sound, rational argument as opposed to these types of fallacies would be put forth.

Is this a disclaimer for or precursor to the inevitible (sp??) classic Terrence behavior??




Originally posted by t_niehoff

Fifthly, Joseph Campbell (author of "The Power of Myth", etc.) has warned us of "the danger in taking our metaphors literally." If you don't know what he (or I) am talking about, I suggest it may be worthwhile for you to read Campbell. :)

Regards,

Terence


For you to quote The Power of Myth in this thread is apropo. That piece of literary penmanship had tons to do with faith, religion, interspection, self-examination, etc .... and nothing to do with martial arts. One more example of how only seeing form can lead to many false assumptions.

If you have no knowledge of who or what has been read, studied or analyzed by whom, I suggest you not be so quick to offer opinions which may be interpreted as condescending in nature. :)

-David

[TenTigers]

Hi Rene,
Not meaning to hijack the thread, but you bring up a point that I'd like to pursue. You mentioned that this specific version of WC doesn't take a tres between set. I had heard that originally, SLT. CK. and BJ were all one set. Have you also heard this? And which if any systems still practice it like this?
-Rik

[yuanfen]

Ten Tigers:And which if any systems still practice it like this?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
When I want to- I do.

joy c

[yuanfen]

Ten Tigers:And which if any systems still practice it like this?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
When I want to- I do.

joy c

[desertwingchun2]

Originally posted by Jim Roselando

I am not going to reply to your full post as it reminds me of the past discussions we had that will end up going no place. I will address a couple of points. JR

But you yourself stated that Fujian White Crane is based on concepts not technique.

No! Thats what you stated! I told you that White Crane is based on Ging patterns and even Yang Jwing Ming (who has numerous years and research into White Crane) state this!! Terence gave you a good book to buy! Shaolin White Crane by YJM! Perhaps thats the Shaolin ancestor roots you search for! JR


Um Jim, by definition "Ging" is a concept. To be more specific "ging patterns" are high-concepts.

I digress, let's walk the string and not sidetrack the discussion. You said since the hand patterns look like Wing Chun hands there must be a connection. I say a techinque is empty. No connection can be made from form alone!!



Originally posted by Jim Roselando

I am sorry to say but, it may be that you don't understand what you are writing. Terms like "Snake Body/Swimming Body/Swimming Dragon/etc.. " are common terms in chinese kung fu. Without training the system many false assumptions arise, such as yours. This is due to the fact that you actually posses no first hand knowledge or experience regarding the inherent relationship between the terms and the physical activity they pertain to.

I guess I will have to let my Gao and other Ba Gwa friends know that what they told me I could not understand. Thanks for helping me out! hehe JR


Again context Jim. You said terms like [paraphrased .... "Snake Body/Swimming Body/Swimming Dragon/etc.. " are found in Zhuang systems and somewhere YKSWC mentioned something about dragons (or something similar) so there is a connection.]

I am simply pointing out those terms are common However,they hold intrinsic and specific meaning when applied to and taught within individual systems. In short, the term "dragon body" and the like are common terms. Easily those terms can hold entirely different meanings to a Ba Gwa Zhang practitioner than it does a practitioner of Lung Ying Kuen.




Originally posted by Jim Roselando

Are you serious???? Don't you see the false logic of your hypothesis??? To start with as you state Yi Chuan of Wang Xiang Zhai is however,Miao Shun's art cannot be verified for he part of fokelore and myth.

Zhuang based arts are Zhuang based arts. All are similar. WCK SLT stands in a form of Zhuang and the Kuit point to it. Like it or not its ok with me. JR

What I like has nothing to do with this discussion. You offered very loose points as a connection between Wing Chun and Emei. Then asked for thoughts. Just because those loose points don't stand up under analysis no need to become dimissive.



Originally posted by Jim Roselando

I made no connection but like to think about what everyone state as their evidience and yes all Wing Chun (well almost all known lineage) claim to come from Shaolin. Or shall we say almost all Kung Fu claims that! What do they also claim? Crane and Snake but I guess that doesn't mean anything. JR


Um Jim this is from your first post ... "So, there are some who do not want to believe there is a possible connection with Emei and Wing Chun.This info. is not designed to try and persuade anyone but give a bit of info. I found when I started to look into that theory and why I think its more likely!" :confused:

and this ....

"I started to look into different art that show roots in that region. After that I looked into their engine/details. We can use a few systems or methods as examples; ..... So, if Miao Shun was the person who combined his own knowledge (which could be Emei Zhuang ... Ng Mui art which would be White Crane then doesn't show a more likely possiblilty?" :confused: :confused:





Originally posted by Jim Roselando

Belive what you want amigo! If you feel that arts can just Poof and majically appear then that is fine. If you feel that (as you said many times); Only the dead ancestors know! Then thats cool to.

Nice speaking with you!


Regards,

Believe what I want ??? You offered points and I offered counter-points providing links when possible as independent information to illustrate said counter-points.

Who ever said anything about "arts can just Poof and majically appear" ??? Actually you're the one asking for thoughts on Emei poofing majically into Wing Chun history ......

Nice speaking with you as well

-David

[Phenix]

Originally posted by TenTigers
Hi Rene,
Not meaning to hijack the thread, but you bring up a point that I'd like to pursue. You mentioned that this specific version of WC doesn't take a tres between set. I had heard that originally, SLT. CK. and BJ were all one set. Have you also heard this? And which if any systems still practice it like this?
-Rik


RIk,

I have heard the same story.

Probably, only those in the Red Boat can answer if that story is true. or what is it or what happen......

And we all belongs to the second millenium...... so we might not want to ask the question which has answer only at 1850....for it might not provide a solution but open up more questions...


let this story gone with the wind.... is the best for this story I think. we all cant go back to 1850 we only can move forward.


or those who believe they inherit the oldest and original WCK from shao lin want to explain why there is a story about there is only one set in the Red boat?

just some thought.

[desertwingchun2]

Originally posted by Phenis



RIk,

I have heard the same story....

.... let this story gone with the wind.... is the best for this story I think.

...or those who inherit WCK from shaolin want to explain why there is a story about there is only one set in the Red boat?

just some thought.


Of course you did !!!! Wing Chun from Yik Gam has only slt. Yik Gam Wing Chun family does not have Chum Kiu and Biu Ji. I'm especially surprised you aren't writing songs about how Yik Gam has original slt from Emei and White Crane !!! Within your own Cho Ga WC family there is a question if Yik Gam even lived on the boats or lived in a port city and learned what Wing Chun he could when the Red Boat Troupe came to perform.

Rik, SNT/SLT, CK, BJ are seperate forms. Each form has it's own identity. Wing Chun from Wong Wah Bo, Leung Yi Tai, Dai Fa min Gam et al. have SNT/SLT, CK, BJ. Those three ancestors were the senior members of the troupe.

An interesting side note, Leung Jan (who learned from Wong Wah Bo and Leung Yi Tai) and Fung Sui Ching (who learned from Dai Fa Min Gam) both have at least two lineages as their legacy to Wing Chun. Both have SLT/SNT, CK, BJ in one system but not the other.

Leung Jan is most famously associated with Yip Man family Wing Chun and Gulo Villiage Wing Chun.

Fung Siu Ching is most famously associated with Yuan Kay San Wing Chun and Jee Sim Weng Chun.

Just some thoughts

-David

[Phenix]

Originally posted by desertwingchun2



quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Phenis



RIk,

I have heard the same story....

.... let this story gone with the wind.... is the best for this story I think.

...or those who inherit WCK from shaolin want to explain why there is a story about there is only one set in the Red boat?

just some thought.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------





Of course you did !!!! Wing Chun from Yik Gam has only slt. Yik Gam Wing Chun family does not have Chum Kiu and Biu Ji. I'm especially surprised you aren't writing songs about how Yik Gam has original slt from Emei and White Crane !!! Within your own Cho Ga WC family there is a question if Yik Gam even lived on the boats or lived in a port city and learned what Wing Chun he could when the Red Boat Troupe came to perform.

Rik, SNT/SLT, CK, BJ are seperate forms. Each form has it's own identity. Wing Chun from Wong Wah Bo, Leung Yi Tai, Dai Fa min Gam et al. have SNT/SLT, CK, BJ. Those three ancestors were the senior members of the troupe.

An interesting side note, Leung Jan (who learned from Wong Wah Bo and Leung Yi Tai) and Fung Sui Ching (who learned from Dai Fa Min Gam) both have at least two lineages as their legacy to Wing Chun. Both have SLT/SNT, CK, BJ in one system but not the other.

Leung Jan is most famously associated with Yip Man family Wing Chun and Gulo Villiage Wing Chun.

Fung Siu Ching is most famously associated with Yuan Kay San Wing Chun and Jee Sim Weng Chun.

Just some thoughts

-David


when people has doubt about themself and have fear that they stand on unsolid ground, they behave in a strange way and posting strange post.

That is the time to give them compassionate and understanding.

[yylee]

For our three forms, I think CK and BJ would not work without SNT foundation. So are they just three different stages of WC training? or seperate exercises that are unique their own ways? that is probably for another thread.

As for the Ermei-WC connection, I agreed with Terence's (wah, what a surprise from an exile member!) comments on "movement characteristics, terminology, and conceptual underpinnings". If we cannot identify key points that link the two together, we don't have a case to study. Need lots of "little" details and specifics.

[Phenix]

Originally posted by yylee

As for the Ermei-WC connection, I agreed with Terence's (wah, what a surprise from an exile member!) comments on "movement characteristics, terminology, and conceptual underpinnings". If we cannot identify key points that link the two together, we don't have a case to study. Need lots of "little" details and specifics.


YY,
your choice!
either you sign the NDA of the snake sliding/worm move or call me nuts to claim to create something 800years old DNA. Hehehhehe :D

[yylee]

Originally posted by Phenix



YY,
your choice!
either you sign the NDA of the snake sliding/worm move or call me nuts to claim to create something 800years old DNA. Hehehhehe :D

If Dr Chow have signed his, I'll sign mine. Hahahahaha! :D

NDA? I need a lawyer!!

[canglong]

originally posted by a voice of reason in the desert
An interesting side note, Leung Jan (who learned from Wong Wah Bo and Leung Yi Tai) and Fung Sui Ching (who learned from Dai Fa Min Gam) both have at least two lineages as their legacy to Wing Chun. Both have SLT/SNT, CK, BJ in one system but not the other. Excellent point David! No song and no dance to follow.... just this
originally posted by hendrik
when people has doubt about themself and have fear that they stand on unsolid ground, they behave in a strange way and posting strange post.hendrik this describes each and every post of yours on this forum to the T.

[Nick Forrer]

Originally posted by TenTigers
Hi Rene, I had heard that originally, SLT. CK. and BJ were all one set. Have you also heard this? And which if any systems still practice it like this?
-Rik


FYI, a friend of mine has a video of a closed door wing chun conference in mainland china in the mid 90s. One of the guys demonstrating had a form which mixed together actions from the three hand forms plus the dummy form as well i.e. it had the zigzagging footwork and po pai jeung (double inline palms).

Just to stress- As i recall- It was not slt then ck the bj one after the other- it was all the actions mixed together

By the By- all I know about this guy is that he was a policeman by profession.

[Nick Forrer]

Hi all,

This is a good discussion with lots of good info being shared- Please dont let it drag down into the quagmire of previous lineage arguments....

In other words.....

IGNORE THE TROLLS

[t_niehoff]

From my perspective, all this speculation is interesting and perhaps suggestive but not really probative. We can, not surprisingly, see "similarities" between a great many methods -- an article was even written a while ago speculating that WCK derived from western boxing! As Jim pointed out, loads of TCMAs have oral traditions linking them to Shaolin. One can take that metaphor literally or take it figuratively (it's trying to tell us something symbolically). If we look at it figuratively, we will see the universality of our "truths"; if we look at it literally, then we take the position that our metaphor is correct and the rest of the world is wrong. In either event, however, the only way to *prove* lineage, including what came from whom, is through lineage -- by proving a line of persons (from A to Z) which account for passage of influence. Lacking that, all we're left with is subjective interpretation ("it looks like Shaolin to me" . . . "No, it doesn't!" . . . "yes, it does") or speculation (did the three sets come from one or the one from combining three, etc.).

Regards,

Terence

[yuanfen]

Good points Nick on thread devlopment-

On the inter-relationships of the forms:

Of course without learning the slt well- one cannot learn ck and bj well.

Further, the chor ma of chum kiu and the biu and huen ma of biu jee creates unique moving platforms. Hence the hand motions adjust-
the wu, the tuit, the biu all adjust to protecting the line from new
positions.

The seeds of each of the forms are in the others as well-they really are linked- first in progression. Later- they forma circle- each devlopment strengthening the other.

The biu principle is there in all 3 hand forms-the biu in slt prepares you for the piercing of chum kiu and later the biu of biu jee. In turn at advanced stages- the biu of biu jee informs the
biu of the slt-making it more relaxed ad explosive.
joy

[Jim Roselando]

Hey Terence!


Good to see ya posting!


I think you make a great point! Let forget all the stories and the theories and the Emei and the Shaolin! Forget all that stuff!


Lets take all the known lineages that can be traced back to the Red Boat and show how the different families that are known from each of those lineages preserve their mold/methods? History does not mean sqwat but the one thing thats good about it is that we can see how they preserve the mold/engine. So, seeing how we have many versions on this KFO board then lets start by tracing them back and showing how many Kung Fu brothers and ancestors they have preserving this art that can be traced. After that we go into detail as to the exact engine they use and see what we come up with!

The whole Emei/Crane thing interests me for one reason! Whats that reason? Analyzing the engine/concept and see how they evolved! Same goes for Shaolin engine. Then, we can leave all the debating about the history thing and just go for the beef!


Regards,

[reneritchie]

"You mentioned that this specific version of WC doesn't take a tres between set. I had heard that originally, SLT. CK. and BJ were all one set. Have you also heard this? And which if any systems still practice it like this?"

All and none. It's really no big deal. See below.

"Of course you did !!!! Wing Chun from Yik Gam has only slt."

Yes, but they have a SLT that is 4x longer than most other lineages.

"Yik Gam Wing Chun family does not have Chum Kiu and Biu Ji."

They don't separate their set and call the 2nd and 3rd sections by those names, but they have those sections.

"SNT/SLT, CK, BJ are seperate forms. Each form has it's own identity."

So do each sub-section of each set, such as '3-Prayers-to-Buddha', however, they retain those identities when trained in sequential manner, when isolated, when explored, etc. just as Siu Lien Tao, Chum Kiu, etc. retain their identities when trained on their own, or when sequenced into one complete long set, each building on the one before.

"Wing Chun from Wong Wah Bo, Leung Yi Tai, Dai Fa min Gam et al. have SNT/SLT, CK, BJ."

We don't know this. We only know that Wong Wah-Bo had those three sets, because both Leung Jan and Fok Bo-Chuen learned them from him. Since there are no other students known of for Leung Yee-Tai, and Dai Fa Min Kam's other students did not learn SLT, Chum Kiu, or Biu Jee, we have no evidence to show they used those names or had that organizational model for their own versions of WCK.

[Jim Roselando]

David,


Um Jim, by definition "Ging" is a concept. To be more specific "ging patterns" are high-concepts.

Ging = Path Of Force

They teach the body how to issue and recieve energy. So, by watching Ging issuing one can easily tell what it is driven by IMO. JR

I digress, let's walk the string and not sidetrack the discussion. You said since the hand patterns look like Wing Chun hands there must be a connection. I say a techinque is empty. No connection can be made from form alone!!

If you want to believe that then that is fine. Watching someone issue Ging tells a big story. Technique is just a technique. Body powering and structure shows a lot. JR

Again context Jim. You said terms like [paraphrased .... "Snake Body/Swimming Body/Swimming Dragon/etc.. " are found in Zhuang systems and somewhere YKSWC mentioned something about dragons (or something similar) so there is a connection.]

I am simply pointing out those terms are common However,they hold intrinsic and specific meaning when applied to and taught within individual systems. In short, the term "dragon body" and the like are common terms. Easily those terms can hold entirely different meanings to a Ba Gwa Zhang practitioner than it does a practitioner of Lung Ying Kuen.

Are you kidding me or do you like wasting time? I think this last writing shows how you understand what you are reading or does someone need to write out everything so that it leaves no room for possible trolling. Some stuff should be obvious! Yet! You only pick a piece and troll it. Go study a Zhuang system or go discuss with Emei Ba Gwa people and then tell me if the Engine doesn't have a connection. Yet! Maybe it does not connect to your art but to others it may! Then, after that, go to the Dragon (for comparison) and other stuff you say;

Hold entirely different meaning to!

Well, congrats! I already know that! Its good to see you understand that to or do you? Until you do then please stop wasting time especially since the Wing Chun Kuen Kuit also have exact stuff as to the Zhuang arts. Unless you do not perserve a Rou Jing version of the WC art. JR

Um Jim this is from your first post ... "So, there are some who do not want to believe there is a possible connection with Emei and Wing Chun.This info. is not designed to try and persuade anyone but give a bit of info. I found when I started to look into that theory and why I think its more likely!"

and this ....

"I started to look into different art that show roots in that region. After that I looked into their engine/details. We can use a few systems or methods as examples; ..... So, if Miao Shun was the person who combined his own knowledge (which could be Emei Zhuang ... Ng Mui art which would be White Crane then doesn't show a more likely possiblilty?"

Believe what I want ??? You offered points and I offered counter-points providing links when possible as independent information to illustrate said counter-points.

David! Just like in the past you connot discuss with logic. Just like your understanding of how other arts may think of Snake/Swimming/etc differently! Yet! Why dont you explain the difference? Look forward to seeing that in this thread! JR

Who ever said anything about "arts can just Poof and majically appear" ??? Actually you're the one asking for thoughts on Emei poofing majically into Wing Chun history ......

You did! May not have used those exact words (as this is how I have to write things based on type of debating) but you stated:

Only the dead ancestors know!

You also stated in the past (make sure I say in the past because of the word games and I want no confusion);

It was a combo of Military and Monk!

So, since you have nothing to add to the possible investigation other than those two and to date you have not brought anything to the table I will go with the investigation of the Snake/Crane history links of the known lineages! Yet! Please do join in the discussion with some actual information other than your above two theories that mean nothing unless you can show something to back it up. JR


This part of this discussion is over for me. I am taking Nick Forrer's advice! IGNORE THE TROLLS I know you will write back and get your last word but please do us all a favor and discuss how the Swimming Dragon body of Lung Ying and the Emei Swimming Dragon body relate or have differences! Looking forward to it!


Regards,

[t_niehoff]

Hi Jim,

I'm not suggesting that these type of discussions be abandoned, just that they are considered in proper context. Hendrik's idea of a link between WCK and White Crane/Ermei is IMO worthy of consideration as is the idea of a link between weng chun and WCK (hey, maybe they all contributed -- who knows?). My point is that these can direct us where to look for evidence of a possible lineage -- because in the end, the only way to *prove* a connection is via lineage (two people can do something similar and not be connected in any way; and, two people can do something very differently and have a personal connection).

Regards,

Terence

[desertwingchun2]

Originally posted by reneritchie
"You mentioned that this specific version of WC doesn't take a tres between set. I had heard that originally, SLT. CK. and BJ were all one set. Have you also heard this? And which if any systems still practice it like this?"

All and none. It's really no big deal. See below.

"Of course you did !!!! Wing Chun from Yik Gam has only slt."

Yes, but they have a SLT that is 4x longer than most other lineages.

"Yik Gam Wing Chun family does not have Chum Kiu and Biu Ji."

They don't separate their set and call the 2nd and 3rd sections by those names, but they have those sections.

"SNT/SLT, CK, BJ are seperate forms. Each form has it's own identity."

So do each sub-section of each set, such as '3-Prayers-to-Buddha', however, they retain those identities when trained in sequential manner, when isolated, when explored, etc. just as Siu Lien Tao, Chum Kiu, etc. retain their identities when trained on their own, or when sequenced into one complete long set, each building on the one before.

"Wing Chun from Wong Wah Bo, Leung Yi Tai, Dai Fa min Gam et al. have SNT/SLT, CK, BJ."

We don't know this. We only know that Wong Wah-Bo had those three sets, because both Leung Jan and Fok Bo-Chuen learned them from him. Since there are no other students known of for Leung Yee-Tai, and Dai Fa Min Kam's other students did not learn SLT, Chum Kiu, or Biu Jee, we have no evidence to show they used those names or had that organizational model for their own versions of WCK.

This is a discussion very much worth having. Actually this should be it's own thread as not to detract from this one.

-David

[desertwingchun2]

Originally posted by Jim Roselando
They teach the body how to issue and recieve energy. So, by watching Ging issuing one can easily tell what it is driven by IMO. JR

Jim, stay on track buddy. We are talking about the hand technique of White Crane not Ging patterns.

Actually when you we're talking about energy and how to " issue and recieve energy" you were talking about Dragons and Snakes not birds. That's what you said right?

Oh yea you said ....

" ......So, if almost all Wing Chun claim to be a combo of Snake and Crane then would it be that the Snake is really the body and the Crane is the boxing? .....

.... So, if Miao Shun was the person who combined his own knowledge (which could be Emei Zhuang as Hendrik claims and as the Yuen Kay San lineage claim minus the Emei info and replace it with his own knowledge) with the Ng Mui art which would be White Crane then doesn't show a more likely possiblilty?"


But your next paragraph says ....


" ... Watching someone issue Ging tells a big story. Technique is just a technique. Body powering and structure shows a lot. JR"

A simple technique is a simple technique. Agreed! What makes the difference is what is behind the technique. (Infered agreement.) I assume that "behind the technique" is what you call "body powering" and "structure". (Again infered agreement)

Following your logic how can you simply pluck the wings off a Crane and stick them on a Dragon??:confused:

Following your logic, only Fujian White Cranes can fly with those wings, not Emei Dragons.




Originally posted by Jim Roselando

Are you kidding me or do you like wasting time? I think this last writing shows how you understand what you are reading or does someone need to write out everything so that it leaves no room for possible trolling. Some stuff should be obvious! Yet! You only pick a piece and troll it. Go study a Zhuang system or go discuss with Emei Ba Gwa people and then tell me if the Engine doesn't have a connection.

Kidding you?? I thought we were discussing your connection of Emei Dragon Body to Wing Chun kung fu here. So no I'm not kidding.




Originally posted by Jim Roselando
Yet! Maybe it does not connect to your art but to others it may! Then, after that, go to the Dragon (for comparison) and other stuff you say;

No maybe about it! Actually it looks like I'm not alone; the WCK practiced from the most senior members of the Red Boats have no connection, their legacy has no connection. If it's not connected to Wong Wah Bo, Leung Yi Tai Dai Fa Min Gam and 99.9% of the Wing Chun families in the world. OK. Im not the one acerting it is.





Originally posted by Jim Roselando
Well, congrats! I already know that! Its good to see you understand that to or do you? Until you do then please stop wasting time especially since the Wing Chun Kuen Kuit also have exact stuff as to the Zhuang arts. Unless you do not perserve a Rou Jing version of the WC art. JR


Whoa buddy !! Let me ask you the same question you just asked me - Except I'm askin after this ..... Zhuang arts??? Did you just make that up ???? Don't insult the intellegence of this forum! Is this some word play game to connect Bagua Zhuang to the "mysterious" Zhan Zuaung (http://www.chi-kung.org/chikung-e/standing.htm)? Do you even know the difference??

Zhuang as in Bagua Zhuang translates to: Palm.
Bagua Zhang translates to: Eight (8) Directional Change Palms
Identified as: WuDang Gung Fu System

Zhuang as in Zhan Zhuang translates to:Post
Zhan Zhuang translates as: Standing Post
Identified as: Chi Kung exercise.

So what Zhuang Arts?? Standing Post meditation?? 8 Directional Change Palms?? Bear Palm from Xing Yi??? Did this Zhuang/Jong connection come from the term Bai Jong??? :rolleyes:

"Its good to see you understand that to or do you?"

Do you or do you still need me to spell it out for you???




Originally posted by Jim Roselando
David! Just like in the past you connot discuss with logic. Just like your understanding of how other arts may think of Snake/Swimming/etc differently! Yet! Why dont you explain the difference? Look forward to seeing that in this thread! JR

Not discussing with logic??? :confused: Oh I get it Thats what Terrence meant by ,"Thirdly, ad hominem attacks, in their various forms, are a simply a sign that the person making them has been intellectually defeated; otherwise, sound, rational argument as opposed to these types of fallacies would be put forth." Hmmm ...





Originally posted by Jim Roselando

Who ever said anything about "arts can just Poof and majically appear" ??? Actually you're the one asking for thoughts on Emei poofing majically into Wing Chun history ......

You did! May not have used those exact words ....

Well then it wasn't me who said it now is, Jim?




Originally posted by Jim Roselando
So, since you have nothing to add to the possible investigation other than those two and to date you have not brought anything to the table I will go with the investigation of the Snake/Crane history links of the known lineages! Yet! Please do join in the discussion with some actual information other than your above two theories that mean nothing unless you can show something to back it up. JR

To what you call an investagation, any good investigator can see this is gone cold.




Originally posted by Jim Roselando
This part of this discussion is over for me. I am taking Nick Forrer's advice! IGNORE THE TROLLS

Jim, I honestly hoping you aren't refering to me as a troll. But if you were, have some self respect man. No need to resort to name calling. After all you asked for thoughts on you connection, didn't you?

oh yea here it is as the salutation on your first post ....

"Thoughts?"


-David

[desertwingchun2]

Originally posted by Jim Roselando
They teach the body how to issue and recieve energy. So, by watching Ging issuing one can easily tell what it is driven by IMO. JR

Jim, stay on track buddy. We are talking about the hand technique of White Crane not Ging patterns.

Actually when you we're talking about energy and how to " issue and recieve energy" you were talking about Dragons and Snakes not birds. That's what you said right?

Oh yea you said ....

" ......So, if almost all Wing Chun claim to be a combo of Snake and Crane then would it be that the Snake is really the body and the Crane is the boxing? .....

.... So, if Miao Shun was the person who combined his own knowledge (which could be Emei Zhuang as Hendrik claims and as the Yuen Kay San lineage claim minus the Emei info and replace it with his own knowledge) with the Ng Mui art which would be White Crane then doesn't show a more likely possiblilty?"


But your next paragraph says ....


" ... Watching someone issue Ging tells a big story. Technique is just a technique. Body powering and structure shows a lot. JR"

A simple technique is a simple technique. Agreed! What makes the difference is what is behind the technique. (Infered agreement.) I assume that "behind the technique" is what you call "body powering" and "structure". (Again infered agreement)

Following your logic how can you simply pluck the wings off a Crane and stick them on a Dragon??:confused:

Following your logic, only Fujian White Cranes can fly with those wings, not Emei Dragons.




Originally posted by Jim Roselando

Are you kidding me or do you like wasting time? I think this last writing shows how you understand what you are reading or does someone need to write out everything so that it leaves no room for possible trolling. Some stuff should be obvious! Yet! You only pick a piece and troll it. Go study a Zhuang system or go discuss with Emei Ba Gwa people and then tell me if the Engine doesn't have a connection.

Kidding you?? I thought we were discussing your connection of Emei Dragon Body to Wing Chun kung fu here. So no I'm not kidding.




Originally posted by Jim Roselando
Yet! Maybe it does not connect to your art but to others it may! Then, after that, go to the Dragon (for comparison) and other stuff you say;

No maybe about it! Actually it looks like I'm not alone; the WCK practiced from the most senior members of the Red Boats have no connection, their legacy has no connection. If it's not connected to Wong Wah Bo, Leung Yi Tai, Dai Fa Min Gam and 99.9% of the Wing Chun families in the world.... OK. Besides, Im not the one accerting it is.





Originally posted by Jim Roselando
Well, congrats! I already know that! Its good to see you understand that to or do you? Until you do then please stop wasting time especially since the Wing Chun Kuen Kuit also have exact stuff as to the Zhuang arts. Unless you do not perserve a Rou Jing version of the WC art. JR


Whoa buddy !! Let me ask you the same question you just asked me - Except I'm askin after this ..... Zhuang arts??? Did you just make that up ???? Don't insult the intellegence of this forum! Is this some word play game to connect Bagua Zhuang to the "mysterious" Zhan Zuang (http://www.chi-kung.org/chikung-e/standing.htm)? Do you even know the difference??

Zhuang as in Bagua Zhuang translates to: Palm.
Bagua Zhang translates to: Eight (8) Directional Change Palms
Identified as: WuDang Gung Fu System

Zhuang as in Zhan Zhuang translates to:Post
Zhan Zhuang translates as: Standing Post
Identified as: Chi Kung exercise.

So what Zhuang Arts?? Standing Post meditation?? 8 Directional Change Palms?? Bear Palm from Xing Yi??? Did this Zhuang/Jong connection come from the term Bai Jong??? :rolleyes:

"Its good to see you understand that to or do you?"

Do you???? Or do you still need me to spell it out for you???




Originally posted by Jim Roselando
David! Just like in the past you connot discuss with logic. Just like your understanding of how other arts may think of Snake/Swimming/etc differently! Yet! Why dont you explain the difference? Look forward to seeing that in this thread! JR

Not discussing with logic??? :confused: Oh I get it Thats what Terrence meant by ,"Thirdly, ad hominem attacks, in their various forms, are a simply a sign that the person making them has been intellectually defeated; otherwise, sound, rational argument as opposed to these types of fallacies would be put forth." Hmmm ...





Originally posted by Jim Roselando

Who ever said anything about "arts can just Poof and majically appear" ??? Actually you're the one asking for thoughts on Emei poofing majically into Wing Chun history ......

You did! May not have used those exact words ....

Well then it wasn't me who said it now is, Jim?




Originally posted by Jim Roselando
So, since you have nothing to add to the possible investigation other than those two and to date you have not brought anything to the table I will go with the investigation of the Snake/Crane history links of the known lineages! Yet! Please do join in the discussion with some actual information other than your above two theories that mean nothing unless you can show something to back it up. JR

To what you call an investagation, any good investigator can see this is gone cold.




Originally posted by Jim Roselando
This part of this discussion is over for me. I am taking Nick Forrer's advice! IGNORE THE TROLLS

Jim, I honestly hoping you aren't refering to me as a troll. But if you were, have some self respect man. No need to resort to name calling. After all you asked for thoughts on you connectio, didn't you?

oh yea here it is as the salutation to your first post ....

"Thoughts?"


-David

[Jim Roselando]

Hello all,


I just finished a phone call with local Gao Ba Gwa representative regarding Snake/Dragon/Swimming etc. again. The first thing we discussed was the difference between terms! As a open and honest person he had no goal in saying one was better or worst and this was his answer;

Jim, for the chinese there is not a difference when discussing the internal mechanics of Snake/Dragon/Swimming. Why? Its the same thing for them as they know exactly what you mean when you mention it. Its a specific way of moving the body. So, call it snake or dragon doesn't really matter. Those who know what it is/do it will know exactly what you are talking about.

He then spoke about the roots of these arts! Stating that all the Rou Jing arts will base there foundation in Zhuang training. This is how one starts to transition his body from the inside out and open them up for further development. Funny thing was that he stated not only Ba Gwa but other arts like Xing Yi, Chen/Tai Chi/Lui Ho Ba Fa/Yi Chuan etc. etc. all share that trade mark of developing as they are Rou Jing arts. Why? They utilize this maxim and try to express it thru their art: Movement in Stillness! WCK utilizes this maxim and as I wrote before Leung Jan stated:

Use quiet to overcome active!

The power of this type of body mechaninc is indeed different from the non elongated arts. As he described it: The power is sent in a shocking short wave up the spine and out. Compressed arts produce a different type of power. Yet! He was clear to say that it was all lead by the waist/kwa! That was the director or the body/energy.

Now! Non of this is designed to say that Ba Gwa has some influence on WCK. Its designed to show how Emei region art share trademark power generation as does Zuang based arts like Yi Chuan etc..

I will attach below a photo of Dragon. Notice the horse and alignment!

Following that I will attach a piece of some writing regarding where Dong Hai Chuan learned his boxing and check out the title of the article. I will also attach a photo of a Ba Gwa representative. Check out the horse and alignment!

After that I will attach a foto of a Zhuang based art. Use your imagination and attach the White Crane hands/centerline theory to his posture.


Hope you enjoy it!


Regards,

[Jim Roselando]

Hello,


This is part two! Please note the Swimming Body term and note that location of Dong's training!

See the attached photo and note the structure!


An Excerpt from the Biography

of

Bagua Zhang's Venerable Master Dong Hai-Chuan

as recorded by Master Wang Shu Jin in Bagua "Swimming Body" Palm

It is said that the venerable master Dong Hai-Chuan was from Zhi Li of the Qing Dynasty (currently He Bei province), Wen An county. It is also said that he was a native of Tung Zou. As a child he was fond of gambling and was very mischievous. He ran away to the capital city and while there was homeless and poverty stricken. Feeling humiliated, Dong wandered south, traveling extensively and exploring the mountains while living in seclusion. Until one day when he arrived in E-mei mountains in Sichuan province where he met two old Daoist priests, Gu Ji-Zi and Sang Dao-Yuan. They inquired of Dong's intentions and in doing so perceived his unique nature and immediately accepted him as disciple. They taught Dong martial arts and the secrets of the River Diagram Magic Square (he tu luo shu). The two old priests also taught him the method of eight trigram circle walking, adjusting his structure and instructing him in the practice of circling a tree. They instructed him to walk until the tree began to chase him and then report this occurrence back to them. He would then be allowed to freely eat and drink. Dong was confused, failing to understand and yet not daring to ask further questions. Since this was the situation he found himself in he just decided to do as he was told. Dong began to practice laboriously day and night. After seven years he had worn a three-foot deep trough around the tree he walked. On one particular day he suddenly felt as if the tree he was circling had started to rock back and forth. He immediately understood. Just as his teachers had said, the tree was chasing after him. When he returned to report to his two masters, they verified his experience and were very happy. Because Dong was a promising student they continued to teach him the "figure eight turning method", and the began instructing him to circle two trees. After another two years, again the trees began to chase him. The masters praised but then also asked him if he missed his home or not. Dong answered "Yes, I do!". Their respect for Dong had risen. He had not lost his original nature. Next they taught him "palm method changes" and drilled him continuously for two more years until he had completed his training. His masters then told him to leave the mountain and return home. As he returned home he passed through many counties and provinces and attended every martial arts competition he could, winning each contest. In this way Dong began spreading the reputation of Bagua Zhang. Dong carefully obeyed his masters and hence the name Bagua Zhang became known throughout the country...

[Jim Roselando]

Attached is a photo of a Zhuang based art. Note the structure and imagine Crane hands/centerline theory attached to it!

[Jim Roselando]

Attached is a photo of White Crane the Zong He version!

Place this on the previous Zhuang photo!

[Jim Roselando]

Ooops!

Forgot to attach the photo to the last post!

Doh!

[Jim Roselando]

Attached is a photo that was from Hendrik's collection of the Fukien Eternal Crane!

[desertwingchun2]

Originally posted by Jim Roselando

He then spoke about the roots of these arts! Stating that all the Rou Jing arts will base there foundation in Zhuang training. This is how one starts to transition his body from the inside out and open them up for further development. Funny thing was that he stated not only Ba Gwa but other arts like Xing Yi, Chen/Tai Chi/Lui Ho Ba Fa/Yi Chuan etc. etc. all share that trade mark of developing as they are Rou Jing arts. Why? They utilize this maxim and try to express it thru their art: Movement in Stillness! WCK utilizes this maxim and as I wrote before Leung Jan stated:

Use quiet to overcome active!

Zhan Zhuang (http://www.chi-kung.org/chikung-e/standing.htm) .... So in Wing Chun we have Zhan Zhuang/Jam Jong Qi gung exercises and thats news to you????? Or did you just notice other systems do too??? :confused:

Oh wait this line cracks me up .....

"They utilize this maxim and try to express it thru their art: Movement in Stillness!"

The maxim you like so much is really the last line of ....

A small movement is better than a big movement, No movement is better than a small movement, Stillness is the mother of all movements. ..... Credited to this (http://www.chi-kung.org/chikung-e/tradition.htm) link.




Originally posted by Jim Roselando
Now! Non of this is designed to say that Ba Gwa has some influence on WCK. Its designed to show how Emei region art share trademark power generation as does Zuang based arts like Yi Chuan etc..

It proves that a lot of gung fu systems know Zhan Zhuang/Jam Jong. Which is Qi gong exercise plain and simple. No mystery. No connection to Emei no connection to Bagua Zhuang from WuDang.

So any martial art system that uses Zhan Zhuang/Jam Jong exercises classifies it as a Zhuang based arts?? Is that what you mean by Zhuang based arts?? If so why did you single out Bagua Zhuang?? You just gave an example of many systems that do the qi gung exercises, why Bagua Zhaung?? Are you discussing or playing word games??




Originally posted by Jim Roselando
After that I will attach a foto of a Zhuang based art. Use your imagination and attach the White Crane hands/centerline theory to his posture.


Hope you enjoy it!


Regards,

:confused: ..... Use your imagination?? So this whole "connection" came from you imagining Emei Dragons with Fujian White Crane wings stuck in them???? Oooops you said attached.

-David

[PaulH]

Jim,

Your Bagua post is pretty wild! The River Magic Square is more a neat Chinese theory of life though, so I'm not sure what martial power they hope to discover through it. Also the tree story reminds me of Ents. I suppose walking in a ring long enough and you will start seeing that big dizzy Eye! Ha! Ha!

I agree with you about the crane connection of post standing trademark in WC though. Thank you for posting!

Regards,
PH

[canglong]

Why dont you guys join the discussion about the Snake body/Emei on that thread? Since you have strong feelings towards that not being accurate you can show your evidence/research to discuss! JR Be careful what you ask for huh Jim you just might get it.
This part of this discussion is over for me. I am taking Nick Forrer's advice! IGNORE THE TROLLS Don't give up now you almost convinced yourself that you know better than 99.9% of the gung wu.
They don't separate their set and call the 2nd and 3rd sections by those names, BUT they have those sections. RR In the name of lil Jon WHAAAT! An impartial unbiased investigator comes into the middle of this discussion and Jim is telling him that he has to use minute nuances gleemed from VHS recording to gather evidence and you in an effort to support this then suggest that glaring physical evidence such as 2 different sets with 2 different names with 2 different visible characteristics is merely circumstantial and quite pointless as evidence, really, huh :confused: or was that a joke hahaha I get it.
It was a combo of Military and Monk! Please do join in the discussion with some actual information other than your above two theories that mean nothing unless you can show something to back it up. JR
Jim you hardly have enough time to discuss your own topic I highly doubt you could find the time to research all the possible links between Ming Royal family members and 22nd generation Shaolin Temple grand master and his disciple.
After that I will attach a foto of a Zhuang based art. Use your imagination and attach the White Crane hands/centerline theory to his posture. So now is the time to substitute imagination for evidence or have you been doing that all along.

[Horz]

Hi Jim,

Great stuff!! Really interesting.
Apparently looking at other arts engines for an insite into WC's past, is to logical for some.

I practice some internal stuff with my wing chun and I find it scarly compatable.

Thanks for the pics.

David

[Nick Forrer]

Hi Jim

Agreed good stuff, keep it coming:)

[Jim Roselando]

Hello Paul,


Your Bagua post is pretty wild! The River Magic Square is more a neat Chinese theory of life though, so I'm not sure what martial power they hope to discover through it. Also the tree story reminds me of Ents. I suppose walking in a ring long enough and you will start seeing that big dizzy Eye! Ha! Ha!

The River Magic Square and other stuff is not what that post was designed to show! I truly dont even know what it is! The goal of that is to show the region of the the Snake/Swimming etc. body mechanics. Dong Hai Chuan was introduced to it in Emei.

I agree with you about the crane connection of post standing trademark in WC though. Thank you for posting!

Glad you like it. I will keep it coming!


Regards,

[Jim Roselando]

Hello Horz and Nick,


Thanks for the replies. It is indeed very interesting for me when I look into this stuff.

The key idea of "Stillness" is not just from the Zhuang arts being thrown in or imported into WCK. It is a WCK Kuit! This stillness is the root of Rou Jing arts. Is WCK Rou Jing? Does WCK strive for Stillness to counter Movement? All based around the same key ideas!

Other key points we should think of is the idea of Natural! Nothing being force! Loi Lau Hoi Sung etc.. Accepting and Staying with or Escorting etc.. We base it around the Natural ways! Soft natural ways of dealing with energy. Part of this we can look at the breathing of WCK! Do we force anything? Do we have any sort of specific breathing like Shaolin based hard bow arts? Mantis/Dragon/Whitebrow/etc..? These arts (Whitebrow doing the reverse) typically take the breath and seal it and force it as base training. Thats not the natural way! WCK states: Breath Deep and Natural!


Seeing how this relates to Rou Jing practice we can see that the Shaolin based training is the reverse. Typically teaching the external hard power first thru tension and stirring the pot isometric body development. WCK is against that as Rou Jing practice trains one from the inside out as the definition of Rou Jing is "Within Soft Carries Hard"!


Watching Derek's (Ving Dragon) performance of his Weng Chun Sup Yat Kuen was very cool! They state that Weng Chun is Shaolin based! Sure! Thats not hard to believe. The mechanics clearly show it! If you haven't seen it go back and check it out. Nice set but certainly a bit different in energy/mechanics.


Talk more later!


Regards,

[duende]

There is no one disputing that Yik Kam's Cho Ga Wing Chun has either Emei White Crane influences or it's historical background.

But to say that if something applies to Yik Kam, then it automatically applies to Wong Wa Bou is not credible.

Yik Kam WC could also be said to have some CLF influences... does that mean that WWB WC also has CLF??

It is also belittling to claim that Cho Ga WC has SNT,CK,BG. Especially when the claim is put out by non-experts in the WWB system. One does not have to take differences as being insults. The long SLT of Cho Ga has it's own identity. Just as SNT,CK,BG each have their own identity. To call them the same is an insult to both.

It our oral history, we learn that Wing Chun was a completely new way of fighting for the Saolin. This was not only because it was a created to defeat all styles. But also due to the influences from the technology brought by the Ming military when they teemed up to fight the Manchu.

Therefore looking for traits of Hard carrying soft, or Soft carring hard does not work for us.

In fact, in our lineage we are taught that the focus of energy is not hard or soft, but rather on and off.



As long as we accept that what is true for one may not be true for everyone. Then, I don't think there has to be a war at all.

[desertwingchun2]

Originally posted by Jim Roselando
Watching Derek's (Ving Dragon) performance of his Weng Chun Sup Yat Kuen was very cool! They state that Weng Chun is Shaolin based! Sure! Thats not hard to believe. The mechanics clearly show it! If you haven't seen it go back and check it out. Nice set but certainly a bit different in energy/mechanics.


Talk more later!


Regards,

Jim we'll talk later as well. However first and foremost this second part of your post really shows the lack of understanding you have. Since the word "logic" is so loosly being thrown around lets see how illogical the last part of your post is. How can anyone experience breathwork from a video?? Much less a vid clip on the net !!

Can someone learn the breathwork and "engine" of Leung Jan's Guloo Village Wing Chun from a video?? Did you learn your Guloo Village Wing Chun that way?? If thats your logic lemme go watch the tapes of Guloo Village Wing Chun points and then I will be an expert on Guloo like you are on Fujian White Crane, Bagua and now Dereck's interpretation of a set from the beautiful Shaolin system of Weng Chun Kuen.

On a side note if you had ever experienced Weng Chun Kuen from Shaolin you would KNOW the emptiness, stillness, soft power, etc .... exists in Shaolin kung fu. You talk about Loi Lau Hoi Sung. If you had actual experience with Weng Chun Kuen you would KNOW about Loi Lau Hoi Sung from Shaolin kung fu.

But it's obvious you don't know. You never had the experience therfore, you think and believe - you watch videos and guess - ... that really is unfortunate.


-David

[Jim Roselando]

Hello all,



Some more thoughts!


The concept of Siu (Small)!

Siu Lin Tau (Little First Training) or the Siu Nim Tau (Little Idea) share a common theory. The name really does not matter as both point towards an idea. The idea is about the training of the small details that power the bigger picture later. The idea of Siu is more in tune with the concept of Zhuang versus the concept of Shaolin. Why? Zhuang would train to stand in silence and teach one to scan every inch of their body aligning perfectly so that gravity and nature take its course. Siu Lin Tau is the first type of training in our art. The non moving training platform of this art shows a clear difference from the typical Som Bo Gin or San Chin type of training based within the so-called Shaolin rooted arts.

So, when looking at the Shaolin type arts (Mantis/Dragon/Writebrow) one can typically see the 3 step forward or cross shape patterns as the root directions of movement and training yet when watching the Siu Lin Tau and comparing it to someone training in Zhuang you can notice that if you took the South fist hands and placed them on the Zhuang one can start to see the more likely! The above named South Fist arts tend to have more relation to the Hakka clan. Body structure and other mechanics of Expanding and Contracting are done with a greater Pump of the body. Often referred to as Dip Gwat Gung or Gop or even when fully cultivated Gon Tun Ging. Its the bigger bow movement of the Hakka related arts and clearly show how they express Tun/Tou (swallow/spit). Fukien art such as White Crane will use a different mechanic. In Fukien Crane the Faat Ging is controlled by the waist and issued thru the spine. Similar to some WC and other art but with harder energy. Now if we look at Rou Jing methods and Zhuang based art we will notice a much more subtle/soft way of expressing the bodies powers. The open and closing of the body is ultra subtle and powerred thru softness.

Kung Fu and other methods must be classified in either Rou Jing or other harder methods of cultivating ones body/art. You either cultivate the tendons/sinews via soft or tension first. Hendrik once wrote that we are really Soft Crane. Well, this makes a lot of sense as the harder releasing/issuing Ging methods indeed show a different power generation. Eating crane is a perfect example. Ultra similar (ultra) but energy issuing is harder. Just like the previous picture show the difference between Dragon body of the Lung Ying and of the Emei region/Rou Jing arts. Lets also remember that the region of Emei is not important. It could have been Pingshan or Gwangxi or anywhere that type of specific Snake/Dragon/Swimming mechanics were born or developed. Whats important is the concept of Snake/Crane and finding out how and where it relates to the WC art based on the Miao Shun combining his "own knowledge" with the art of Ng Mui. A lot of WC (lets say 98%) state that WC is born in Shaolin of Ng Mui and is a combo of Snake/Crane. Well, we must also keep in mind that out of all the WC people in the world how many just repeated the story over the years versus do the investigation that only a handfull of guys have done. All I want to do is look into the possibilties of all the stories/research the few have done and see what seems to make most sense! By presenting this stuff I think we can start coming up with some good stuff to ponder.


More later! Work work work! uggg


Regards,

[desertwingchun2]

Jim, notice how it's you posting about Weng Chun Kuen not knowing soft internal energy? Could it have anything to do with the fact that, those who claim to know so much about soft internal energy, KNOW Shaolin Weng/Wing Chun has it? :eek:

Hmmmm ........ ;)


-David

[Jim Roselando]

Hello all,



Investigating the breathing patterns!

First! (and most important in my eyes) Look at the chest! Flat chest or pressing the chest forward is a clear indicator of ones body. A flat chest of forward aligned structure with chest sticking out goes against the Rou Jing way. Sticking the chest out or having a flat chest causes the body to work in a different method. Classical info./WCK info./Zhuang info. all state: Sou Hung (Hollow the Chest). This allows nature to do its thing via the soft based way.

Second! This is probally the easiest way to check and you dont even have to see the guy to know! Yup! Just close your eyes and listen! Do you hear him breathing? Do you hear the almost pist pist pist type of breath coordination. Thats not Rou Jing. Thats not soft breathing.

Third! Watch them in action. Watch the facial expression and when complete examine what they just did by seeing what the end result is. Are they huffing and puffing? Are they sweating like they just came out of the sauna? Thats not the goal of Rou Jing method.

Some perfect examples of this can be found on the net. Just watch Yip hit the Jong! Old and sick he demonstrates that he sticks to the jong and releases Ging like its not big deal. Watch Fung Chun demonstrate. Look at his face and look at him when he finishes. No big deal. Watching Fung Keung (Old Fung's youngest son) on video and watching others one can easily see what they breathing is. Go watch Mantis/Bak Mei/Okinawan arts etc.. Thats easy to see! WCK breathing is more in tune with Taiji type breathing. Its designed to instill Movement in Stillness! Nothing is better or worst. Just different!


Its either hard or soft first. Even some of the hard bow arts have some sort breathing in the later stages but examine the body mechinics and ways of their breath. its not difficult!


Regards,

[desertwingchun2]

Originally posted by Jim Roselando

The key idea of "Stillness" is not just from the Zhuang arts being thrown in or imported into WCK. It is a WCK Kuit! This stillness is the root of Rou Jing arts. Is WCK Rou Jing? Does WCK strive for Stillness to counter Movement? All based around the same key ideas!


What are Zhuang arts??? Zhuang as in "Palm"??? So any art that uses palm strikes???? is a Zhuang art???

Zhuang/Jong as in "Post" or "Structure"??? So any arts that use Standing Post Qi Work/Zhan Zuang Qi Gung is a Zhuang art??? BTW, Zhan Zhuang/standing post qi gung has been in China for over 1000 years.


Originally posted by Jim Roselando

Other key points


OTHER???? :confused:

-David

[desertwingchun2]

Originally posted by Jim Roselando
Hello all, Investigating the breathing patterns!

Via video??? I finished watching some vid clips on the web of Guloo Village Wing Chun. IMO, breathwork in this system is non-existent. Know why??? Because its a video !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



Originally posted by Jim Roselando

First! (and most important in my eyes) Look at the chest! Flat chest or pressing the chest forward is a clear indicator of ones body. A flat chest of forward aligned structure with chest sticking out goes against the Rou Jing way. Sticking the chest out or having a flat chest causes the body to work in a different method. Classical info./WCK info./Zhuang info. all state: Sou Hung (Hollow the Chest). This allows nature to do its thing via the soft based way.


Jim, ever hear Yuhn Ying in relation to the system you call Whitebrow?? Im assuming you meant Pak Mei/White Eyebrow kung fu. Yuhn Ying translates to Round Shape. Concaved chest and all.


What Zhuang info???? When will you define Zhuang sytems?? We don't know which Zhuang you're talking about??? How does this miscellaneous info change 300 years of history???



Originally posted by Jim Roselando

Go watch Mantis/Bak Mei/Okinawan arts etc.. Thats easy to see! WCK breathing is more in tune with Taiji type breathing. Its designed to instill Movement in Stillness! Nothing is better or worst. Just different!


Tai Gik????? Now Wing Chun Kuen is from Tai Gik ???? All of Tai Gik or just whichever family the pupeteer has you say??




Originally posted by Jim Roselando

Its either hard or soft first. Even some of the hard bow arts have some sort breathing in the later stages but examine the body mechinics and ways of their breath. its not difficult!


Regards,


Instead of looking as hard/soft, ask yourself how does your system go from emptiness to form back to emptiness?? Or is your system vice versa???

-David

[Phenix]

one asked. "have you seen a white cup or a black cup? "

the other reply "ask yourself how does it go from emptiness to form back to emptiness"( instead of I Dont know but I will not admit I dont know)


and when others point this out.


the anger run amok and all sort of words to attack go from emptiness to form.... after that explosion. the form goes back to emptiness. heheheh :D

what doesnt go from emptiness to form back to emptiness? not a thing. :D

[Phenix]

Originally posted by Nick Forrer



FYI, a friend of mine has a video of a closed door wing chun conference in mainland china in the mid 90s. One of the guys demonstrating had a form which mixed together actions from the three hand forms plus the dummy form as well i.e. it had the zigzagging footwork and po pai jeung (double inline palms).

.

sound like you see some Yik Kam's relatives with ... steps footwork..... :D

[desertwingchun2]

Originally posted by Phenis
one asked. "have you seen a white cup or a black cup? "

the other reply "ask yourself how does it go from emptiness to form back to emptiness"( instead of I Dont know but I will not admit I dont know)


and when others point this out.


the anger run amok and all sort of words to attack go from emptiness to form.... after that explosion. the form goes back to emptiness. heheheh :D

what doesnt go from emptiness to form back to emptiness? not a thing. :D

With the skin gone where can the hair adhere?

[PaulH]

"the anger run amok and all sort of words to attack go from emptiness to form.... after that explosion. the form goes back to emptiness. heheheh

what doesnt go from emptiness to form back to emptiness? not a thing."


While you may have lost your body scan secret, I see you haven't lost your humor, Hendrik. =)

P.S. Jim, all your beans are quite tasty so far from Bean town! Keep on spilling a few here and now! Thanks!

[desertwingchun2]

Originally posted by Jim Roselando
Hello,


This topic will be an off-shoot of a discussion regarding Snake Body going on in the Weng Chun Sup Yat thread!


So, there are some who do not want to believe there is a possible connection with Emei and Wing Chun. This info. is not designed to try and persuade anyone but give a bit of info. I found when I started to look into that theory and why I think its more likely!

A brief synopsis ....


Originally posted by Jim Roselando

I started to look into different art that show roots in that region. After that I looked into their engine/details. We can use a few systems or methods as examples;

Ba Gwa: This art often claims roots in Emei region and various lineages state different descriptions regarding the body/engine! You can hear the body/engine often described as Snake Body by Park Bok Nam and other groups. You can hear the body/engine descrbed to as Swimming Body by the Gao people. You can hear the body/engine described to as Swimming Dragon by other groups! All coming from Emei!

You claim this as a "connection" because it stresses Emei BaGua's Swimming Body and how it's a conection to Wing Chun. Here's information on Emei Bagua. (http://www.trianglebagua.com/emei_mountain.html) Note that You Shen Baguazhang/Swimming Body Eight Change Palm is a form not a "body/engine"!!

Here's a quote from that website - "Many but not all of the systems of Baguazhang practiced on Mount Emei and there are numerous forms of the art, appear to have stemmed from Yin Fu a famous disciple of Dong Hai-Chuan others using the name Baguazhang are quite different. Among the Baguazhang forms found in the Emei Wushu portfolio of martial art are: .... "

Dong Hai-Chuan - Born:1875 Died:1908. How is it possible an art he created influenced Wing Chun if he wasn't born until 1875????




Originally posted by Jim Roselando

Zhuang: Yee Chuan grandmaster Wang Xiang Zhai (while not emei but a good connection) states: The body is like a swimming Dragon and if Miao Shun own knowledge was Emei Zhuang then thats a good sign!

"Zhuang" in this example means "Post" or "Structure". The term Zhuang has no independant connection to Yi Chuan. For information on Yi Chuan click Here (http://www.eternalspringtours.com/trainingcenter/yiquanintro.html)

Zhan Zhuang/Jam Jong is a qi gong exercise. For information on Zhan Zhuang click HERE (http://www.chi-kung.org/chikung-e/standing.htm)



Originally posted by Jim Roselando

Yuen Kay San lineage: Although not claiming to be an Emei based art we can see in some writing that they also state; Swimming Dragon is memory serves me correctly and Rene can probally help me out if I am wrong!

1. Not Emei based. 2. any connection of Wing Chun from Wong Wah Bo to Emei Bagua Swimming Body Form cannot exist because the form is simply too recent a creation !!!!!!!!!




Originally posted by Jim Roselando

So, if Miao Shun was the person who combined his own knowledge (which could be Emei Zhuang as Hendrik claims and as the Yuen Kay San lineage claim minus the Emei info and replace it with his own knowledge)

What Emei Zhaung??? Emei Zhan Zhuang Qi Gong/Standing Post Qi Work done by people on Emei??? You Shen Baguazhang/Swimming Body form Eight Change Palm ?? What is your definition of Zhuang Arts???



Originally posted by Jim Roselando

Thoughts?

What does this have to do with Wing Chun Kuen???


-David

[Jim Roselando]

Hey Paul!


P.S. Jim, all your beans are quite tasty so far from Bean town! Keep on spilling a few here and now! Thanks!


Glad you find it interesting!

Boston Baked Beans are not for everyone! Some like other beans but sometimes cant understand that a Baked Bean looks like a Goya Bean but taste totally different! Its almost funny that some of the Goya Bean lovers are not even reading/understanding whats written on this Boston Bean can!


Going away for the weekend! Will continue on Monday if you and others want me to?


Regards,

[PaulH]

Yo Jimbo,

I like this summary of a Samurai classic: "A crafty ronin comes to a town divided by two criminal gangs and decides to play them against each other to free the town. " And some interesting dialogues: "You don't mind if I kill all of you?" "What? Kill me if you can!" "It'll hurt."

Life is stranger the fiction. WingChun town will never be the same when you're through! =)

[canglong]

Desertwingchun2,
All your post have been well thought out David that last one in particular was an excellent read and nice links thanks since Jim will not say it I'll do it for him;)
I notice that this thread has picked up in views since you joined in the dialogue and even though Jim side skirts your post all the people viewing this thread can still learn even if Jim refuses too keep your post coming for the good of the viewing audience. Jim your unwillingness or inability to address David's points speaks volumes in itself as to the sincerity behind the origins of this thread.

[Jim Roselando]

ROFLMAO

Those who read with an open mind understand what is being written! Those who read without an open mind do not!

Davids posts only show his understanding what has been written! Your appreciation of his writing also shows how you understand what has been written.

I have recieved e-mails from people stating: Why bother as they dont get what you write?

Its all done because I love this art!

Nothing more/Nothing less!


Back to ingoring the trolls!

[Jim Roselando]

Hello,


Before heading out for the weekend I will make one more quicky post!

With regards to Sow Hung a thought was brought up to compare it to the Hum Hung of Bak Mei! Attached is a photo of Bak Mei students practicing in a field.

Note the Hum Hung & body structure and compare for yourself!


Regards,

[canglong]

posted by Jim Roselando
Back to ingoring the trolls! If that answers David's post for you Jim run with it but you are not the only one getting emails saying why bother ;) and just like your last post every time you post and don't reply to David's points you lose credibility within yourself forget all the paople viewing this thread and search within name calling joking with Paul emailing hendrik phone calls to rene ritchie none of that can hide the fact that David made excellent points to which you appear to be unable to respond and that my friend is a fact!

[duende]

At least I didn't get called a troll.... I was just ignored.

Well, can someone answer this simple question???

How did Wong Wa Bou's junior Yik Kam teach him these White Crane body mechanic engines??

And where does Choi Li Fut come in... Obviously it comes in somewhere as it's present in Yik Kam's legacy. Does this mean that maybe CLF is actually the true WC origin source???

Jim.. you'd better get your CLF pictures out and a magnifying glass! Or better yet... get a bigger computer monitor so you can really get down to the details!

[canglong]

duende,
Keep making sense and asking poingnant questions and I have no doubt you too will be called a troll sooner or later hahahahaha
good luck in your quest my friend :)

[duende]

Thanks Tony...

And when that moment comes we should start a band mannn!!

Later
Alex

[canglong]

hehehehe I like it... Good idea

[desertwingchun2]

Jim, if you don't know what your talking about just admit it. Hendrick left you hanging out like last weeks laundry!!! Face it you can't even explain what a "Zhuang art" is and your the one saying look at "Zhuang arts" and how they connect to wing chun.

You say .....

"Those who read with an open mind understand what is being written! Those who read without an open mind do not!"

However, when the facts are presented you tuck tail and run. How is that an open mind?? Is it an open mind for you to continue calling a palm a post and a post a palm after you have been corrected???

How is putting solid independant information out there trolling?? Anyone reading this thread knows this isnt your theory. You are playing the front man but man you ended up getting played.

The more you make lame attempts to discredit me, name call and fail to respond to the simplest of questions the more your ignorance beems!!! If you got hoodwinked do your fellow wing chun players a solid and tell them so.

Admit you got fooled by Hedrick and his word play! I mean really Jim, if you are going to classify arts at least know what you're calling them. I mean so far it's obvious you don't know your palm from a post in the ground !!! LOL :D

-David

P.S. Canglong and Duende I get to play the drums !!!!!!!!!

[KPM]

Well, can someone answer this simple question???

---OK. Seems simple enough. I'll give it a shot. :-)

How did Wong Wa Bou's junior Yik Kam teach him these White Crane body mechanic engines??

---Maybe he didn't. The idea is that WCK did not arise in a vacuum. It had seed methods and influences that contributed to its development. Looking at similarities in body structure and technique, it would appear that early White Crane could have been one of these seed methods. The White Crane influence may have come well before Wong Wa Bo and Yik Kam. After all, the WCK legends put the story of snake & crane all the way back to Ng Mui.


And where does Choi Li Fut come in... Obviously it comes in somewhere as it's present in Yik Kam's legacy.

---And obviously CLY was added later by the Cho family to what Yik Kam Taught.

Does this mean that maybe CLF is actually the true WC origin source???

---Are you serious? Or just being sarcastic? If serious, then you need to do a little more general CMA reading. If sarcastic, what purpose does it serve?

Keith

[duende]

Keith,

It is well documented that Wong Wa Bou was a Red Boat member. Yik Kam's background is not.

If YKWC's leagacy want's to trace their history to White Crane, then more power to them. But it is inaccurate to say that all WC has a history in White Crane.

To do so grossly denys the integrity of WWBWC system. 1 does not equal 3

WWBWC and YKWC are two separate systems.

[canglong]

originally posted by keith
---Maybe he didn't, it would appear, may have, After all, You know keith my daddy used to tell us as kids If a buzzard had a guitar on his a-s-s there would be music in the air obviously his words of wisdom would have been wasted on you.

[Chronos]

Jim,

Thanks for your posts.


Originally posted by Jim Roselando
ROFLMAO

Back to ingoring the trolls!

Quite right. But the constant trolling is an irritant and does make it harder to read the thread. Hard to see what the trolls are gaining from interfering with the discussion.

[canglong]

originally posted by chronos
Quite right. But the constant trolling is an irritant and does make it harder to read the thread. Hard to see what the trolls are gaining from interfering with the discussion. Chronos so glad you could take time out of your busy schedule to drop gem number 14 on us no one would ever consider calling you a troll but what exactly was it your post brought to the discussion.

[KPM]

It is well documented that Wong Wa Bou was a Red Boat member. Yik Kam's background is not.

---So? A question was asked. I gave what I thought was a plausible explanation. How "well-documented" are all the other members of the Red boat generation?

If YKWC's leagacy want's to trace their history to White Crane, then more power to them. But it is inaccurate to say that all WC has a history in White Crane.

--I agree, just as it may be inaccurate to to say that all WC has a history in Shaolin. But the legend of Ng Mui and the snake/crane influence is found in most lineages of WCK. Do you think that legend is totally without substance? Couldn't the legendary fight between a snake and a crane actually be an allegorical reference to actual martial systems rather than real animals?

To do so grossly denys the integrity of WWBWC system. 1 does not equal 3

---How does it deny the integrity of what WWB taught? We have at least three WCK lineages that have similar body powering methods and structures that are very much in line with the theroy that there was a White Crane influence somewhere in the past......Pin Sun WCK, Yik Kam/Cho Ga WCK, and Yuen Kay Shan WCK. 2 of the 3 trace back to WWB.

WWBWC and YKWC are two separate systems.

---Pin Sun, YIk Kam, Yuen Kay Shan, Yip Man, Etc.......are all separate systems. We can get an idea of what WWB's system was like from shared commonalities in his descendants. But no one really knows for sure.

Keith

[KPM]

Originally posted by canglong
You know keith my daddy used to tell us as kids If a buzzard had a guitar on his a-s-s there would be music in the air obviously his words of wisdom would have been wasted on you.


I offer a reasonable answer to a reasonable question and this is the response I get. This kind of post doesn't even deserve a response. But here I am feeding the trolls!

Keith

[KPM]

Originally posted by canglong
Chronos so glad you could take time out of your busy schedule to drop gem number 14 on us no one would ever consider calling you a troll but what exactly was it your post brought to the discussion.

Talk about a double standard! Tell me Tony, just what did YOUR response to my post bring to the discussion??????

Keith

[reneritchie]

"How did Wong Wa Bou's junior Yik Kam teach him these White Crane body mechanic engines??"

It was likely the other way around. Weng Chun White Crane was already on the Red Junks by Wong Wah-Bo's time. In fact, the leader of the Red Junk Opera, Lee Man-Mao, was a famous White Crane boxer. Beyond that, there are other things to suggest that White Crane is the source of the Weng Chun trained on the Red Junks, and hence a component of the Wing Chun that followed. Definitive? No, of course not, but nor can it be ruled out at this point, IMHO.

"And where does Choi Li Fut come in... Obviously it comes in somewhere as it's present in Yik Kam's legacy."

The Cho's, like many martial arts families that taught in public gyms, originally trained in various Southern Fist systems, one of which was Cho Lai-Fut (similar to how other WCK people previously trained in Hung Kuen or whatever). Instead of ditching it when they learned WCK, they tried to re-engineer it using WCK methods (the way others did the 6.5 pole or dummy or whatever).

"To do so grossly denys the integrity of WWBWC system. 1 does not equal 3"

There seems to be a system of 4, not three. Whether this be 3 sets plus San Sik, or 1 4 section set that combines the 3 with the San Sik. It all breaks down to core cycles, expansion & contraction, turning and stepping, & returning and overturning.

[desertwingchun2]

Originally posted by KPM
We have at least three WCK lineages that have similar body powering methods and structures that are very much in line with the theroy that there was a White Crane influence somewhere in the past......Pin Sun WCK, Yik Kam/Cho Ga WCK, and Yuen Kay Shan WCK. 2 of the 3 trace back to WWB.


Which body powering meathods keith??? Body powering from Zhuang arts and Fujian wings is Jims theory?? So if you agree with this theory maybe you can tell us what Zhuang arts are ??????? Do you know the difference between your palm and a post in the ground???

Pin Sun WCK is the same as Guloo Villiage Wing Chun. No SLT, CK, BJ only SLT and points. However, the founder of that system , Leung Jan, did teach SLT, CK, BJ to Chan Wah Shun etc ... so we know he had that knowledge.

Yik Gam White Crane Wing Chun has no connection to WWB no Knowledge of CK,BJ and does not indentify with Shaolin.

How does YKSWC trace back to WWB??? Yuan Kay San and his Sihing had Fok Bo Chung as their first teacher the Fung Sui Ching as the second. Both lineage from the Yuan family has SNT,CK, BJ. Now as Rene points out the Yuan family didn't learn SLT,CK,BJ from Fung Siu Ching, if true, 1. What did they learn?? 2. Fung Sui Chings teachings are still preserved through CSWC. 3. HFYWC and TWC identify with CSWC less on form and more on principles and concepts. 4. The majority on this forum link TWC and HFYWC together by form .... so how do all these seperate systems identify with each other and not one talks about Emei and White Crane????

-David

[desertwingchun2]

Originally posted by reneritchie
"How did Wong Wa Bou's junior Yik Kam teach him these White Crane body mechanic engines??"

It was likely the other way around. Weng Chun White Crane was already on the Red Junks by Wong Wah-Bo's time. In fact, the leader of the Red Junk Opera, Lee Man-Mao, was a famous White Crane boxer. Beyond that, there are other things to suggest that White Crane is the source of the Weng Chun trained on the Red Junks, and hence a component of the Wing Chun that followed. Definitive? No, of course not, but nor can it be ruled out at this point, IMHO.

"And where does Choi Li Fut come in... Obviously it comes in somewhere as it's present in Yik Kam's legacy."

The Cho's, like many martial arts families that taught in public gyms, originally trained in various Southern Fist systems, one of which was Cho Lai-Fut (similar to how other WCK people previously trained in Hung Kuen or whatever). Instead of ditching it when they learned WCK, they tried to re-engineer it using WCK methods (the way others did the 6.5 pole or dummy or whatever).

"To do so grossly denys the integrity of WWBWC system. 1 does not equal 3"

There seems to be a system of 4, not three. Whether this be 3 sets plus San Sik, or 1 4 section set that combines the 3 with the San Sik. It all breaks down to core cycles, expansion & contraction, turning and stepping, & returning and overturning.

Didn't we say this would be a good thread on it's own??? Please don't detract from the current discussion. I'm still very interested to hear any good evidence on Jimmy's Emei/White Crane connection to Wing Chun!!!

Are you gonna tell us what a Zhuang based art is??? All this about white crane wings stuck into Zhuang body ... What Zhuang body?? Bagua Zhuang body??? Any body that knows Zhan Zhuang Qi Gung????


-David

[canglong]

Keith,
My post was merely to point out that your "shot" was just a little outside and there is no double standard 'cause my post don't come off as a wing chun historian. There is nothing wrong with arguing against those things you believe to be untrue but first you might want to do some REAL research people on here posting things because they saw videos and or read something in someone else's post is not entirely wrong it just doesn't add up to research. If you post like that rest assured it will get pointed out.

[KPM]

My post was merely to point out that your "shot" was just a little outside


---Get off your high horse Tony. Your post was a troll, pure and simple. Insulting and inappropriate. My post was no "shot." It was a reasonable answer to a reasonable question. Rene elaborated on the idea, but basically gave the same answer.

and there is no double standard 'cause my post don't come off as a wing chun historian.

---I didn't "come off" as a wing chun historian any more than anyone else posting on this thread. My response was based upon simple logic. And a troll post is a troll post regardless of the motivation.

There is nothing wrong with arguing against those things you believe to be untrue but first you might want to do some REAL research people on here posting things because they saw videos and or read something in someone else's post is not entirely wrong it just doesn't add up to research. If you post like that rest assured it will get pointed out.

---OK Tony. Then the next time you start making statements I would like to see references to published literature to back it up. This is a public discussion forum, not an academic review committee. How much "REAL research" have you done, and how much of what you say is "sifu sez"? I believe we are seeing another double standard here.

Keith

[canglong]

originally posted by Keith
---OK. Seems simple enough. I'll give it a shot For the record I don't "start making statements" or run off at the mouth and keyboard and especially don't feel the need to resort to calling people names for the sake of appearing to win a debate discussion or argument on a public forum and lastly I certainly don't feel the need to explain my actions to you or any other member of this forum!

[anerlich]

For the record I don't "start making statements" or run off at the mouth and keyboard and especially don't feel the need to resort to calling people names for the sake of appearing to win a debate discussion or argument on a public forum and lastly I certainly don't feel the need to explain my actions to you or any other member of this forum!

It's all about *you*, isn't it, Tony? Your fascination with the pronoun "I" is showing, huh?

[Sandman2[Wing Chun]]

I'm closing this thread due to the high number of personal attacks. They are woven fairly tightly into the other information and I feel that if I just went through and deleted them there wouldn't be much left. But there is some good info in here. So I'm going to go ahead and close this one, and encourage continued discussion on a new thread to give everyone an opportunity to try and stick to the topic at hand without the need for abrasive language.