ATTN: LKFMDC, Question for you.

[cerebus]

Hello coach Ross. I tried posting this question elsewhere, but no one seems to know the answer. They thought you might have some info though.

Anyway, I recall that in the 70s there was a push to condense the forms in Tibetan White Crane. There were apparently alot of instructors who were against this, but I heard that it WAS eventually done. I was wondering if this "condensation" or shortening of the forms by removing repetitious movements took place all across the board or did some instructors refuse to accept the shortened forms?

Also, which top instructors in the U.S. teach the modified version? Which instructors worldwide teach it? What is your opinion on the modification? (I know you're not doing the "traditional" stuff anymore and that you were a Lama Pai stylist, but I'd still like to hear what your thoughts are on this).

Thanks in adavance for any info you can provide. T.

[WanderingMonk]

lkfmdc = lama kung fu main disciple?

[cerebus]

Heh, heh. Well, I'm not sure what it stands for, but it's the forum name used by David Ross, formerly of Lama Pai, now a top San Da/ San Shou coach in New York.

[cerebus]

Oh, and anyone else out there with any info please feel free to reply! Thanks!

[WanderingMonk]

cerebus,

I know that coach ross's handle. He teased forum members saying that he would let people in on it, but never did. I was just using your thread "ATTN lkfmdc, qustion for you" to ask him if that was what it stand for. watch him ignore my question.

[cerebus]

Aaaaah! Okay! Yeah, I was wondering about it myself (though the "lkf" is certainly Lama Kung Fu). :D

[Banjos_dad]

Someone guessed it right in a thread a couple of months back and he confirmed it, look & you should find it.

[cerebus]

No, no derailing of this thread! Back on original topic!! Tibetan White Crane!!

[MasterKiller]

Lama Kung Fu Modern Defense Concepts

[cerebus]

TTT

[cerebus]

Hello? Mr. Ross? Are you out there? :confused:

[cerebus]

Hello?:confused:

[SanShou Guru]

I think he may have gotten married this weekend. Or is going to next weekend so he may be out of the loop for a while.

[cerebus]

Well, THAT'S a pretty lame excuse for not spending his time on internet forums!!:D :D :D If you have any contact with him, send him my congratulations. I'll keep checking other sources for my question. Thanks!

[SanShou Guru]

Just ttt this post now and then and he will respond eventually.

[lkfmdc]

some friend you are! sending me off to my fate ahead of schedue! :D

For the record, I'm not getting married until after the world San Da championships

Nhg Siu-Chung established the White Crane style (Baahk Hok Pai). Nhg Siu-Chung sought to make the system more accessible to the general public. The White Crane style attempted to standardize the practice of basics and both modified and created hand sets to make them logical and systematic. Nhg Siu-Chung's efforts were quickly rewarded. He taught many students and made the White Crane style the most famous of all of the Tibetan martial arts.

In 1954 the White Crane style gained even greater popularity when a public fight between Chan Hak-Fu, one of Nhg Siu-Chung's disciples, and Nhg Gung-Yee, a master of Wu Style Taiji, was arranged. Other famous disciples of Nhg Siu-Chung are Kwong Boon-Fu, Luk Chi Fu, and Ngai Yoh Tong.

However, soon after Nhg Siu-Chung's death the style split into several branches and no longer remains unified. The Hong Kong White Crane Athletic Association attempted to standardize the teaching of White Crane but each disciple had already begun developing their own methods. Some disciples were content to remain within the Hong Kong White Crane Athletic Association while others, most notably Chan Hak-Fu, were not.

Chan Hak- Fu decided to establish his own organization, the International White Crane Federation, in Australia in 1972. Chan Hak-Fu's White Crane is considered significantly different from the White Crane of his classmates.

Things were further complicated in 1977 when Ngai Yoh Tong and several members of the Hong Kong White Crane Athletic Association decided to change the hand sets, making them "more economical" and removing repeated movements.

Today, there remains only a few hand sets that all the different factions still have in common. Among these are Luk Lik Kyuhn (achieving power), Chut Yip Bouh (exit and enter step), Tit Lin Kyuhn (chain set), Siu Nhg Yihng Kyuhn (lesser five animals), Tin Gong Kyuhn (heaven set), Lo Han Kyuhn (Boddhisattva), and Min Loi Jam Kyuhn (needle in cotton). Unfortunately, these hand sets are often quite different in composition and performed differently, especially where footwork is concerned.

There are also a number of hand sets that are particular to only certain branches of the style. Among these are Siu Gam Gong Kyuhn (lesser diamond), Dai Gam Gong Kyuhn (greater diamond), Dai Nhg Yihng Kyuhn (greater five animal), Kahn Na Sau Kyuhn (seizing hand), Jui Baat Sin Kyuhn (eight drunken immortals), Jui Lo Han Kyuhn (drunken Bodhisattva), Lo Han Chut Dong Kyuhn (Bodhisattva exits the cave), Guaai Jih Kyuhn (bandit form), Lo Han Yi Sahp Sae Jaang Kyuhn (Bodhisattva twenty four elbows) and Jui Gam Gong Kyuhn (drunken diamond).

[SanShou Guru]

Sorry I remember you saying you were getting married a few weeks after the event and I brain pharted on which event. ;)

[cerebus]

Thanks for the reply Mr. Ross. So, the shortening of the forms in the 70s was only for Ngai Yoh Tong's organization?

Does he have any students in the U. S.?

What are your thoughts on the shortening of the forms? Was it a good idea or not?

[lkfmdc]

it's ok, I just am sensitive about going to my impending doom :D

PRide is rocking... and lat night's UFC's Shamrock match gave hope to old ****s everywhere !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[cerebus]

I guess you were posting the same time I was, so you might not have seen the post right before yours.

[lkfmdc]

I have very mixed feelings about the more "condensed" TWC traditions. They made difficult stuff easier to get at, especially by introducing basics, etc

There also isn't much need for 22 sets where they all have the same combination just in 5 different directions

But TWC cut out a lot of stuff or made it "advanced" so you could never get at it, when I was hanging around in SF back in the day guys who were supposed to be "closed door disciples" of good lineages didn't know any Neih Lahk Sau or Dou Lou Sau. Some didn't even have 1/2 the fei hok sau

[cerebus]

I often get the impression that most traditional arts just have too many overly redundant forms and that most systems could easily be condensed down to 4 or 5 empty hand forms at the most. Then more time could be spent learning how to actually USE the art and train it in hard contact sparring, etc.

I enjoy the forms training of trad arts and feel that forms are a good way to learn the techniques & principles of an art, but too many forms means little time left for application and fight training.:(

[cerebus]

Are there any Ngai Yoh Tong students in the U.S.? Is Ngai Yoh Tong still alive?

Who's in charge of the Hong Kong White Crane Athletic Association right now?

[lkfmdc]

there is some Ngai lineage in US, you'd have to look

as for who is where, who is in charge of what, etc

I've been out of that world so long I wouldn't know anymore

[cerebus]

Thanks for the info. I've tried finding more on the internet but there doesn't seem to be much out there. The Hong Kong W.C. Athletic Assoc. doesn't seem to have a website either.

Congratulations again on your impending..........marriage! :D (I wasn't gonna say "doom", honest! :D ). Later