San Shou, a great thing for stand up fighters!

[Sim Koning]

Whether it be Muay Thai, Karate, Tae Kwon Do or Boxing I think San Shou is a great sport to train in if you are primarily a stand up fighter. This is because it trains all the primary aspects of stand up fighting, punching, kicking and grappling, but most importantly, grappling. The fact is, even if most of us strikers cross train in Jiu Jitsu, we will never be as good at it as someone who spends most of his time on the ground. San Shou on the other hand teaches you not only how to defend against sweeps and take downs, but also teaches you how to execute throws that send your opponent to the ground very hard while you remain standing. This puts your opponent in disadvantaged position because he can’t pull you into the guard if you don’t go down with him.

Of course, you still need to learn the basics of ground fighting, because the chances are your throw will not be perfect and you will go to the ground sometimes. But San Shou training will help you stay on you feet longer and increase your chances of getting a knockout with the tools you know best, strikes.

So, in my opinion, San Shou is a great training tool for those who prefer to stand up fight.

[cerebus]

Yeah! What he said! :D :D

[Sim Koning]

I get a little frustrated at times when I hear people say that San Da/San Shou is just kickboxing. Muay Thai, Kickboxing and San Da are quite different from one another. In the Muay Thai clinch, the fighters are close together to defend against knees. In San Shou, the fighters lower their center of gravity and keep their hips apart to prevent throws. In Muay Thai, the two primary kicks are the front push and the roundhouse. The strongest kick in San Shou is the side kick. San Shou of course has trapping, sweeping and throwing techniques that have been developed to a high degree; Muay Thai has very little grappling by comparison. San Da may not look like Wing Chun, but it is still kung fu. Many of the earliest San Da trainers were actually Choy Li Fut stylists. This is no surprise to me since one of the guys at our school has faught in China and noticed that they used Choy Li Fut style hooks.

[stubbs]

im starting san shou next month. can't wait!! its about time i got myself into competitions to see what it feels like to get hit!
________
ASIAN LESBIAN (http://www.****tube.com/categories/130/lesbian/videos/1)

[dodger87]

Does sanshou have ground fighting in it? or once they take you to the ground the ref calls you to stop?

[Sim Koning]

Does sanshou have ground fighting in it? or once they take you to the ground the ref calls you to stop?


San Shou has all aspects of fighting except for submission (you have gloves on) and ground fighting. San Shou has a lot of grappling, but the theory behind it is the exact opposite of styles like Jiu Jitsu. Instead of trying to go to the ground when throwing your opponent, the goal is to throw the opponent down without going with him, in this way you remain standing while he is stunned on the ground. This retains the Chinese flavor of the art and makes it more entertaining to the spectators. This is what (in my opinion) makes it a great sport for stand up stylists, because you learn to not only defend against take downs and stay on your feet, you also learn to counter with your own throws that keep you standing. One could agrue that this is a more practical theory of fighting when it comes to fighting more than one enemy as well.

go here if you want to see what it looks like. check out the video clips :) http://cungle.com/

[3rdrateIMAkilla]

Muay Thai is the result of 2000 years of experimentation and warfare in Thailand

[Sim Koning]

Gung Fu/Quan Fa is the result of 3000 years of experimentation and warfare in China

[Liokault]

Originally posted by stubbs
im starting san shou next month. can't wait!! its about time i got myself into competitions to see what it feels like to get hit!


Cool stubbs! Where are you going to train and how much are you going to weigh? You may end up as my next fight!

[Unmatchable]

According to this wing chun sifu:
part 1:
http://combatcentres.com/press_art_06.html
part 2:
http://combatcentres.com/press_art_07.html

Muay Thai is more effective than other forms of kixkboxing because the style not the man is better.

[3rdrateIMAkilla]

Dennis Hallman lost to Frank Trigg, which tells me the MMA Renassiance is ending.

[3rdrateIMAkilla]

It's not me that's good, it's the juice that's good

[SanShou Guru]

So far our experience fighting Muay Thai (8-0) is this:

They round kick hard (no surprise)
They can take punishment (again no surprise)
Easy to hit.
Can't defend straight techniques well.
Look at sidekicks like it is a linear algebra problem.

Muay Thai has developed the myth of being the ultimate stand up style because the fighters for the most part are in shape and pound the crap out of each other toe to toe. We tell our fighters not to go toe to toe with them move and hit at range. use straight techniques to beat their round kicks and hooks. They clench to knee grab their waist in a bear hug and pick them up, no leverage, no power in the knee.

Muay Thai fighters are tough as hell but just try to beat them not beat them up. It is not in the muay thai mentality to move and hit.

Basically you can beat muay thai under muay thai rules by not fighting muay thai style.

But for the record if someone walks into our school and wants to train the answer I always want to hear to the question "do you have any previous training?" is always "some muay thai" first "I wrestled in high school" second and "some boxing" third.

Also more good clips
here. (http://boston-kickboxing.com/fightclips-frame.htm)

the highlights form worlds at www.sanshou.com

[Sim Koning]

Look at sidekicks like it is a linear algebra problem.

LMAO!




Wing Chun stylists may have never beaten Muay Thai in the ring, but there are quite a few Choy Li Fut, Praying Mantis and a few (old style) Shoalin guys like Deru who have never been defeated by Thai Boxers.

I also remember reading that when San Shou was first being formed as a sport, many of the coaches and trainers were Choy Li Fut masters.


Muay Thai is more effective than other forms of kixkboxing because the style not the man is better.

tell that to Cung Le or Shawn Liu, I can get their numbers for you.

[lkfmdc]

Pretty much what Guru said, especially regarding side kicks, Muay Thai guys eat them like fat guys eat popcorn at the movies :p

NYKK has fought Muay Thai rules more times than I can count, we've also fought MT guys in San Da. It aint the style kids, it's the MAN

oh, and the Shawn Liu stroking is making it hard to type, shaking with laughter....

[Sim Koning]

oh, and the Shawn Liu stroking is making it hard to type, shaking with laughter....

LOL, yeah I should probably stop that, I've probably mentioned the guy 10 times already on this forum LOL. I just hear alot about him at my school becuase some of the guys I know trained with him, and he is usually the only traiditional shao lin stylist I can think of that has a history of being an undefeated full contact fighter.

[SanShou Guru]

I'm not touching this one.

Which guys do you train with that know him?

[lkfmdc]

Originally posted by Sim Koning

he is usually the only traiditional shao lin stylist I can think of that has a history of being an undefeated full contact fighter.

you know, there are TWO ways to be "undefeated".....

[lkfmdc]

he seems to be one of Duncan's boys, so I'm giving him room and playing nice nice :D

[Sim Koning]

Which guys do you train with that know him?

Duncan Duffin, he went to the Shao Lin Temple with him a while back. His picture is in Kung Fu magazine July/Aug 2004 issue, page 25. He is the guy crouched in the very middle with a white shirt on.

here is a clip of one of his fights from our school's website.

http://chanskungfu.com/videos/danda.wmv

he is flying to California to train with Cung Le this year.

[SanShou Guru]

Cool, I'm one of Albert Pope's Coaches and was in his corner for that demo fight, I know Duncan well.

He's going to Cung's to train? Great more stuff I will have to fix if he come to train in Boston. ;)

Now I will have to email him.

[cerebus]

Nice match. Which one was doing the majority of the throws?

[SanShou Guru]

Duncan had the yellow stripe. It was a very good demo bout. Good level and no injuries.

[Sim Koning]

He's going to Cung's to train? Great more stuff I will have to fix if he come to train in Boston.


LOL.

Yeah, I gues he is going to fight one of the Fairtex guys. He wants me to spar with him to help him prepare because I'm a good kicker (from all the Jow Gar training).

[lkfmdc]

great, if he goes to San Jose and Boston by the time he gets to NY he's gonna be real messed up :p

(in case you haven't noticed, we san shou people have a very strange sense of humor amongst ourselves)

[SanShou Guru]

I just emailed him. I'll see if I can get some info to him.

[Sim Koning]

cool


I'm going to really start training hard in San Shou, so maybe in a year or so you will see me fighting. I really need to work on my throws and a little on my hands though. I'm known primarily for my kicks. I've been called everything from crazy legs, to the feet from hell in class.

[SanShou Guru]

Sim check your PM "you have mail"

[Sim Koning]

Pretty much what Guru said, especially regarding side kicks, Muay Thai guys eat them like fat guys eat popcorn at the movies

lol, the side kick is probably my best kick, that and the spinning back kick. I can't seem to get the tornado kick to work for some reason, I wonder why :confused: lol

[Suntzu]

Duncan Duffin :p

[stubbs]

Originally posted by Liokault



Cool stubbs! Where are you going to train and how much are you going to weigh? You may end up as my next fight!


ill be training here http://www.kixxmartialarts.co.uk/ im gonna practically live in that place :D had a look around earlier this month and the facilities a really good! im gonna start as soon as my current gym membership runs out. as the mo im 191lbs but i hope to get down to about 185lbs over the next couple of months and start entering competitions as soon as i can.
________
MASTURBATION SPANISH (http://www.****tube.com/categories/761/spanish/videos/1)

[Sim Koning]

ill be training here http://www.kixxmartialarts.co.uk/ im gonna practically live in that place had a look around earlier this month and the facilities a really good! im gonna start as soon as my current gym membership runs out. as the mo im 191lbs but i hope to get down to about 185lbs over the next couple of months and start entering competitions as soon as i can.


That's cool, it's alot of fun. I'm lucky that I found a traditional school that also has san shou.

I'm hoping San Shou will be the new venue for stand up styles. Not only kung fu, but karate, tae kwon do etc... because the rules allow for just about any style. Its sort of like the MMA, but is more likely to gain wider acceptance since its less brutal and more fun to watch than boxing or kickboxing.

[rogue]

San Shou rules are closest to the way "traditional" styles used to train. Kick, hit, sweep or throw. Why this kind of competition was replaced by point sparring and restrictive kickboxing is beyond me.

I never would have believed the side kick beating the MT round house if I hadn't seen it myself in a competition. My guess the round kick is more popular in kick boxing besides being a good weapon is because it's easier to learn than the side kick.

[dodger87]

Is there anyone who does MT and sanshou? Just curious.

[Sim Koning]

Lots, Muay Thai and San Shou are a good mix. You look at alot of San Shou guys and you'll see Muay Thai listed in their training background.

[Shao Lin Long]

Originally posted by stubbs



ill be training here http://www.kixxmartialarts.co.uk/ im gonna practically live in that place :D had a look around earlier this month and the facilities a really good! im gonna start as soon as my current gym membership runs out. as the mo im 191lbs but i hope to get down to about 185lbs over the next couple of months and start entering competitions as soon as i can.
Since you live in England, why don't you go train in the London Shaolin Temple with Sifu Shi Yan Zi. He is an expert in San Shou and retired undefeated in China. heres the link:http://www.shaolintempleuk.org

[Shao Lin Long]

Originally posted by Sim Koning

he is usually the only traiditional shao lin stylist I can think of that has a history of being an undefeated full contact fighter.

Maybe he is the only shaolin stylist in the US undefeated, but not in the entire world. There are lots of shaolin stylist(even monks) who are undefeated in China in San Shou. China's San Shou team are one of the toughest fighters I have ever seen. I peronally think anyone on that team can beat Cung Le.

[Brad]

There are lots of shaolin stylist(even monks) who are undefeated in China in San Shou
Who?


China's San Shou team are one of the toughest fighters I have ever seen. I peronally think anyone on that team can beat Cung Le.
Didn't Cung Le allready defeat at least one of China's former top dogs?

[WanderingMonk]

...........

[Shao Lin Long]

There are lots of shaolin stylist(even monks) who are undefeated in China in San Shou
Shi Yan Zi is one of them, and Shi de Cheng is also undefeated in China.


China's San Shou team are one of the toughest fighters I have ever seen. I peronally think anyone on that team can beat Cung Le.
Not that I have heard of.

[lkfmdc]

Another Shaolin yahoo :rolleyes:

It's very easy to be "undefeated" when you come from some place where no one can check and see if you ever even fought.

Funny how these "undefeated" monks, most of them have no evidence they ever fought at all.

Anyone who does San Shou who doesn't at least have a picture of themselves fighting? Even if it's just them standing on the Lei Tai after the match? Most of the US guys have photos, videos, and, oh yeah, the MEDALS.....

Cung Le KO'd the Mongolian King, who was a San Da Wang CHAMPION...

Long Duk Dong, oh, sorry, I mean Shaolin Long, I've seen plenty of "Shaolin San Shou" and sorry but it's P I SS POOR.....

Please go troll some place else

[SifuAbel]

Now, Now, no need for name calling.
Go to your room and think about what you said.

[Shao Lin Long]

Originally posted by lkfmdc
Another Shaolin yahoo :rolleyes:

It's very easy to be "undefeated" when you come from some place where no one can check and see if you ever even fought.

Funny how these "undefeated" monks, most of them have no evidence they ever fought at all.

Anyone who does San Shou who doesn't at least have a picture of themselves fighting? Even if it's just them standing on the Lei Tai after the match? Most of the US guys have photos, videos, and, oh yeah, the MEDALS.....

Cung Le KO'd the Mongolian King, who was a San Da Wang CHAMPION...

Long Duk Dong, oh, sorry, I mean Shaolin Long, I've seen plenty of "Shaolin San Shou" and sorry but it's P I SS POOR.....

Please go troll some place else
what is your dawm problem with the monks???? just because one apple is rotten it doesn't mean all th rest are.. I f you're so sure they are not undefeated why don't you go ahead and fight one to prove them wrong.. Why don't you go challenge Shi Yan Ming??You talk a lot of crap about them but you don't do a thing.. If your are so sure that they have never fought and that they don't know anything about San Shou go ahead and prove your point. Go to the U.S. Shaolin Temple and say to Shi Yan Ming" hey can I have san shou match with you" ... you know actions speak louder than words....

[WanderingMonk]

Originally posted by Shao Lin Long

what is your dawm problem with the monks???? just because one apple is rotten it doesn't mean all th rest are.. I f you're so sure they are not undefeated why don't you go ahead and fight one to prove them wrong.. Why don't you go challenge Shi Yan Ming??You talk a lot of crap about them but you don't do a thing.. If your are so sure that they have never fought and that they don't know anything about San Shou go ahead and prove your point. Go to the U.S. Shaolin Temple and say to Shi Yan Ming" hey can I have san shou match with you" ... you know actions speak louder than words....

You are barking on the wrong tree. I believe coach ross had mention about his challenge to Shi Yan Ming. He even wrote a challenge letter in chinese and sent it to him.

Although Coach Ross is rather rough around the edges and sometime he is rather "disagreeable", he has been around and know what he is talking about.

[Shao Lin Long]

Well, like he likes to say, there is no evidence about it. If he challenges SYM and SYM backs away scared or if he beats him in a San Shou match, I would believe his foolish points. I dount he ever send that card.,or even if he did I don't think Shi Yan Ming never answered it because he was scared. I heard SYM personally say that if anyone had anything bad to say about Shaolin , that he would be waiting in the US Shaolin Temple. He indirectly addressed that issue about peolple talking bad about shaolin but not backing it up. I really don't remeber were I read,heard or saw that bu as soon as I remember I'll give you the reference.

[Brad]

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/ezine/article.php?article=16
Second paragraph. Mongolian King had a record of 84-2 :eek: Xing Zhijie, who was undefeated, also went down.

[Shao Lin Long]

Originally posted by Brad
http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/ezine/article.php?article=16
Second paragraph. Mongolian King had a record of 84-2 :eek: Xing Zhijie, who was undefeated, also went down.
Oh ok, well I admit I was wwrong about cung le but still China's national team now is different and in that article it clearly says that China won the competition.

[SifuAbel]

"also has san shou".....



I remember when it was the norm that schools would do contact fighting and they just called it sparring. Now its been separated into a completely different avenue and given a brand name.

As for SYM is concerned, I have to agree that talk is talk and the only thing that really counts is that the offending party show up there, acceptance of a letter or not, and throw down.

Cung Le is a superlative athlete. So is the Mongolian king. How many times have they fought? In UFC, everybody has beaten everybody else at least once. Its no big boast to have beaten somebody one time. People love to ride on the coat tails of the best. Its doesn't prove anything beyond these two being good athletes.

"Why this kind of competition was replaced by point sparring and restrictive kickboxing is beyond me."

You can thank the Karate tournies for that. From '80 on, tournies became less and less contact and more and more single technique. Being the only game in town for a while, schools just trained for it. It became the norm. Less and less schools emphasised full contact practice.

"San Shou rules are closest to the way "traditional" styles used to train. Kick, hit, sweep or throw. "

Thats right, what else is there? The only thing I would try to improve on san shou is approach(footwork) and defense.

San shou was the product of KF schools wanting to have a contest that were continuous and with higher levels of contact. Regardless of its becomeing its own animal with its own mythology, its "always been a K thang, ba-beh"

[lkfmdc]

Originally posted by Shao Lin Long

Why don't you go challenge Shi Yan Ming??You talk a lot of crap about them but you don't do a thing.. If your are so sure that they have never fought and that they don't know anything about San Shou go ahead and prove your point. Go to the U.S. Shaolin Temple and say to Shi Yan Ming" hey can I have san shou match with you" ... you know actions speak louder than words....

Like I said, a "Shaolin Yahoo"

My friend, your so called "monk" talked a lot of crap about me and my school, so I sent him a challenge letter IN CHINESE. Shi Yan Ming turned into KFC, ie he turned Chicken

I've trained over 17 national champions in San Shou. IE we have verified matches, REAL matches and we really kick butt. The so called monks just talk about fighting.

Lo long long dong shaolin :rolleyes:

[lkfmdc]

Originally posted by Shao Lin Long


I heard SYM personally say that if anyone had anything bad to say about Shaolin , that he would be waiting in the US Shaolin Temple.

yeah, he'd be waiting inside with the doors shut, hiding under a carpet. Tough talk from a nameless Shaolin living half way across the world. We were going to show up in person to smack his dumb, FAKE monk ass around, he threatened to get a restraining order. SO much for the brave Shaolin hero

Unlike the bricks they bake or the other Chi gung tricks they pull, we actually HIT BACK....

NOw go back to playing in the pagado forest.....

[SifuAbel]

Just to play delivs advocate for a moment,
Why didn't you just show up?

[lkfmdc]

Simple answer, it would be a waste of my time. Simply put, Shi Yan Ming and his Shaolin cricus are a joke. He lives off the mystic of "Shaolin" while talking about how he's a Shaolin San Shou champion (with no evidence) and talking about how he's the "only real San Shou school in NY" when his students don't even spar and never compete.

Inevitably, the average student initially buys the hype until they get tired of doing nothing but forms and paying through the nose for them. So they leave and if they want to really fight, end up with US! I have PILES of his former students here.

That is precisely how I heard all the crap he was talking. Now, my attitude, I don't talk crap, I deal directly, I did the same thing with fake old "David Lin" here in NY when he put his flyers on my front door.

But Shi Yan Ming ran away like a greased chicken. Despite numberous reports from former students, he DENIED being a San Shou person to us, he said he doesn't fight, and he threatened to get a restraining order if we came down. So what was the point?

[SifuAbel]

'nuff said.......

[ShaolinTiger00]

Buddha bless you...

[Brad]

Oh ok, well I admit I was wwrong about cung le but still China's national team now is different and in that article it clearly says that China won the competition.
I know China won the competition. That has nothing to do with anything you were talking about though. You need to just stop making things up. Have you ever seen any of the monks fight? Have you ever seen Cung Le fight? How about any of the other top U.S. San Shou athletes? Have you seen China's national team fight? It would be nice to know exactly what you're basing your opinions off of.

[Vash]

Originally posted by SifuAbel
"Why this kind of competition was replaced by point sparring and restrictive kickboxing is beyond me."

You can thank the Karate tournies for that. From '80 on, tournies became less and less contact and more and more single technique. Being the only game in town for a while, schools just trained for it. It became the norm. Less and less schools emphasised full contact practice.

Yep. Fugging point-sparring crap makes Vash an angry Isshinryu karate-type person.

I hate tournies, anyway. The seminars roxors, though.

[Shao Lin Long]

First of all you are as untrustworthy as Shi Yan Ming. He claimed he was a San Shou champion,he claimed his was the true teacher of San Shou in Ny but he didn't have the evidence to it backup.
On the other hand you said you sended him a card in CHINESE, you claim that he ran sacred and and said he didn't want to fight and, also you don't have the slight evidence of any of this. Even if all you claim is truth , like I said before, just because one apple is rotten it doesn't mean the rest are. That brings me back to my original question, which you didn't answer,whats your dawm problem with shaolin????

Oh , and just so you know they do spar in his classes. It even says so in his own site. But only his "level 2" students. If he doesn't spar at all then that is called false advertising and you can go ahead and call the police on him.

[Shao Lin Long]

Originally posted by Brad

I know China won the competition. That has nothing to do with anything you were talking about though. You need to just stop making things up. Have you ever seen any of the monks fight? Have you ever seen Cung Le fight? How about any of the other top U.S. San Shou athletes? Have you seen China's national team fight? It would be nice to know exactly what you're basing your opinions off of.
First of all, I have seen Cung Le fight, I haven't seen a shaolin monk fight in a san shou competition(though I have seen them in practices), and I have seen the Chinese San Shou National King Fight.

Now can you say to me what am I making up?????

[lkfmdc]

Shaolin, congratulations, you're in the running for most retarded post of the year :rolleyes:


Originally posted by Shao Lin Long
First of all you are as untrustworthy


OK, sure, whatever you say. I'm "untrustworthy". I run one of the largest martial arts schools in the US, have one of the largest competition teams in the US, have trained over 17 national champions, and I've been doing it since 1988. But whatever you say dude, you the man!


Originally posted by Shao Lin Long

you don't have the slight evidence of any of this. Even if all you claim is truth , like I said before, just because one apple is rotten it doesn't mean the rest are.

[/B]

The evidence is that he shut his **** mouth. The evidence is that I have a pile of his students in my school. The evidence is that everyone that trains with him knows all he does nothing but forms.

Also, all the evidence points to you not having clue #1


Originally posted by Shao Lin Long

Oh , and just so you know they do spar in his classes. It even says so in his own site.
. [/B]

Oh, so it says so on his site, then it must be true :rolleyes:

what a yahoo......

[lkfmdc]

Originally posted by Shao Lin Long

I haven't seen a shaolin monk fight in a san shou competition(though I have seen them in practices

thanks for demonstrating what we suspected, that you are a clown. Basing your opinion on their ability to FIGHT based upon their practice sessions.... :rolleyes:

[lkfmdc]

By the way, if Shi Yan Ming still wants to make an issue of it, the other option still stands. He can field a team of his "2nd level monks" :rolleyes: vs. Team NYKK....

I'll sell the pieces left over on Ebay :D

[Shao Lin Long]

After talking all that BS you still haven't answered my original question...........

[Shao Lin Long]

Originally posted by lkfmdc
By the way, if Shi Yan Ming still wants to make an issue of it, the other option still stands. He can field a team of his "2nd level monks" :rolleyes: vs. Team NYKK....

I'll sell the pieces left over on Ebay :D

Better yet, why don't you fight HIM yourself..!!

[lkfmdc]

Despite all YOUR BS I more than answered your questions. Here's a hint, learn to READ ENGLISH , maybe it's not your first langauge, but heck, if you are gonna argue and act like a clown at least bothter to try and read what people are telling you...

And if you really have any doubts, when you gonna be in NY again? Since you claim to have been in Shi Yan Ming's excuse for a training hall :rolleyes:

[lkfmdc]

learn to read little "first year monk"... I already challenged him, he ran from me so fast he left skid marks. Dude, you don't know me, but that's no excuse for your clown posts. Get a clue who the f you're talking to.....

[Shao Lin Long]

WHAT IS YOUR PROBLEM WITH SHAOLIN?????? YOU CAN'T BLAME IT ON ONE MAN!!!!!!!!

[lkfmdc]

never mind, I just read our Shaolin yahoo's profile. A whole 2 years of training :rolleyes:

I was hoping he'd have pictures up, but he was smart and killed his links.....

[CaptinPickAxe]

I have to say that LKFMDC is one of the most respected posters here on the forum. He has proven his creditablity and that his gym is one of the best time and time again. He is one of the head of the San Da Championships. How is he uncreditable and just as unreliable as this quack who claims to be a monk?

If I were in New England I'd go to his school...guess I'll have to stick with my 'crappy', 'unrealistic' Shuai Chiao:p

[Shao Lin Long]

Why are you still avoiding my question??? Oh and even if I don't know who you are I'm more than sure that if you fought SYM he would knock the fuC ki.... lights out of ya!!!!!!!!

[Shao Lin Long]

And who the f** said I'm a monk????????

[CaptinPickAxe]

I'm talking about SYM...

to quote Red Foreman from "That 70's Show"

"*******"

[lkfmdc]

a 16 year old kid with 2 years of training talking smack to me? Only on the internet. Not only have I been training longer than he's been alive, I've been teaching longer than he's been alive.

you want to know what I have against Shaolin? You're too young, too ignorant and too undeducated in martial arts to get it, but Shaolin is a fraid, it's a lie. It's worse, it's a joke. And when the clowns trying to pass themsleves off as martial artists and monks talk smack, it's an insult not only to martial arts but to Buddhism as well. They should be ashamed of themselves, but they're too busy ripping off 16 year olds to take note :rolleyes:

[lkfmdc]

dude, you're an idiot, sorry to be blunt. I started training in 1977. Ask yourself "where was I in 1977"...... LMFAO :D

[Shao Lin Long]

Originally posted by lkfmdc
a 16 year old kid with 2 years of training talking smack to me? Only on the internet. Not only have I been training longer than he's been alive, I've been teaching longer than he's been alive.

you want to know what I have against Shaolin? You're too young, too ignorant and too undeducated in martial arts to get it, but Shaolin is a fraid, it's a lie. It's worse, it's a joke. And when the clowns trying to pass themsleves off as martial artists and monks talk smack, it's an insult not only to martial arts but to Buddhism as well. They should be ashamed of themselves, but they're too busy ripping off 16 year olds to take note :rolleyes:

Yeah and what proof do you have of any of this?????
Aren't you a San Shou coach?? who do you think invented Shaolin Kung Fu and San Shou for that matter??? the americans??? Just ask any good chinese coach aboput shaolin and see if they have anything bad to say about it.. Yeah Shaolin is such a fraud that they made hundreds of kung fu schools around it , and thats one of the places hundreds of martialartsists dream of going.

Oh and SYM started training in 1969, ask yourself where was I at that time..

[CaptinPickAxe]

Check is profile for a homepage...

How many schools you own doesn't gauge if your schools legit. It just says that they're good at pulling the wool over your eyes.

[David Jamieson]

dave, you're too much sometimes. You talk like you're king Sh1t of turd mountain.

Lighten up a little dude, you're such a freakin d1ck it hurts sometimes just reading your bloated arrogant crap.

you got a fight record you can prove? You still get in teh ring? YOu got some evidence of any "monks" running scared from you?

jeesuz man, lighten up with your toughman act. You can be such a goof at times.

taints your points where you have a litle bit of credibility if you get my point.

or:

you'll get more flys with honey than with vinegar.


anyway... It's good to see you post this crud now and then. BUt yeesh.

[lkfmdc]

Shaolin invented San Shou, yeah, Shaolin invented ice cream, viagra, the hoola hoop also :rolleyes:

Sure, there are plenty of "Shaolin schools" these days, because they saw your sad butt coming a mile away and knew you'd fall for it.

What proof do I have? It's called history junior. It's called the buring of Shaolin, it's called the shelling of the monastery by KMT forces, it's called the Cultural Revolution. Sadly, it's also called common sense.

But being who you are, you're just an ignorant fool who has never learned any of these things and so you believe whatever the local "monk" tells you

[lkfmdc]

Kung Lek believes in Free Masons, Illuminanti, global conspiracies and the black helicopters so of course he believes in Shaolin :rolleyes:

I have pics of me fighting, I have certificates with my placings, I have some video somewhere. That's stuff that Shi Yan Ming has NONE OF. I was fighting in a place and time when the events I fought in actually existed. So many of the so called Shaolin monks claim to have "fought" in a time when we already know such competitions did not exist. Even Gene, a Shaolin guy, admitted that San Shou is new to Shaolin :rolleyes:

My gym continues to produce san shou champions, a good indication we know what we are doing, as opposed to Shi Yan Ming's school which hasn't once put a fighter on a Lei Tai, much less produced a champion :rolleyes:

Some of teh so called "monks" can't even chant. My teacher was just a regular guy who happened to grow up around a monastery and can chant.

Shaolin is a joke, an obvious joke to anyone who knows history and has common sense. I guess a 16 year old kid with 2 years of training doesn't qualify as knowing or having either one....

[Shao Lin Long]

Originally posted by lkfmdc
Shaolin invented San Shou, yeah, Shaolin invented ice cream, viagra, the hoola hoop also :rolleyes:

Sure, there are plenty of "Shaolin schools" these days, because they saw your sad butt coming a mile away and knew you'd fall for it.

What proof do I have? It's called history junior. It's called the buring of Shaolin, it's called the shelling of the monastery by KMT forces, it's called the Cultural Revolution. Sadly, it's also called common sense.

But being who you are, you're just an ignorant fool who has never learned any of these things and so you believe whatever the local "monk" tells you
Yeah I know of the cultural revouiton and the ban of traditional kung fu by the goverment but still even inside that wushu crap that what left in Shaolin there is a very traditional core, like Gene said....

[lkfmdc]

next time a dog takes a crap, go digging through it to find the "core".... if it appears "wrapped" in crap, and smells like crap, it's most likely crap.... but you go on believing the lie, because it obviously makes you happy. But play on your side of the street and stay out of my yard. Come over to LKFMDC's side of town and you may find out the truth, and that will likely scar your fragile juevenile mind :rolleyes:

[Shao Lin Long]

China is still the place for kung fu, maybe you are right about Shaolin in the Temple itself, but beleive me that the were/are alot of traditional master in China. Do you truly think that there isn't a traditional Shaolin kung fu master in China left????

[SifuAbel]

Originally posted by lkfmdc
........ and I've been doing it since 1988.

uhhhhhhhhhhhh, I thought san shou took off in 97-98.

[SifuAbel]

Hey!, don't knock the shaolin!
The shaolin wushu stuff thats comeing out now might be just glorified performance wushu. But there are plenty of good traditional schools here that aren't "new commie monk".

Make the distinction.

[SanShou Guru]

The first real San Shou fighter in the US was Jason Yee in 1991 (Bronze in San Shou at the 1991 Worlds). He started the first San Shou program in 1991.

Many other schools had kung fu fighting programs before then but he was the first one to really start San Shou in the US as it is known now.

[ShaolinTiger00]

it's an insult not only to martial arts but to Buddhism as well.

I wonder what SYM's wife he left behind in China thinks of his Buddhist values..

SA, The majority of us first saw official sanshou rules in 1995.

[Shao Lin Long]

Originally posted by ShaolinTiger00


I wonder what SYM's wife he left behind in China thinks of his Buddist values..

SA, The majority of us first saw official sanshou rules in 1995.

He had a wife in China?? I didn't know. I thought rthat the only wife he had as from the US.

[Shao Lin Long]

Originally posted by SifuAbel
Hey!, don't knock the shaolin!
The shaolin wushu stuff thats comeing out now might be just glorified performance wushu. But there are plenty of good traditional schools here that aren't "new commie monk".

Make the distinction.

Absolutely, there is no question that Wushu is for the most part what is being taught in Shaolin(if not all of China) now a days. But still China(including Shaolin) is the home of kung fu. You're bound to find at least some good traditional masters there. And even though I would never diss Shaolin like lkfmdc, I'm still pretty disappointed with certain things happening nowadays there, like that the Chen School in Shaolin(the biggest school) and other schools there are now including even tuiquandao(I don't think its bad because of taekwondo because crosstraining with it can really helkp your kicks, but because they're teaching this in a place where its supposd to be all about tradition, Shaolin). Another thing, I don't like the way Shaolin is doing propaganda, like with the video Shaolin Wheel of Life, because they are taking advantage of the martialarts-don't-know-much audience. They see this monks trained in wushu and doing their tricks and they think wow who in the world can defeat this guys. Sure this guys train very hard and have tremendous speed,flexibility and strenght but what their doing(at least) in the video is not for fighting. I'm glad that in recent times old masters are urging for traditional competitions there have been a couple recntly(even thouh they aren't pure traditional). What I hope is that traditional kung fu keeps urging in China so that it becomes more popular and that when people go to Shaoin to see martial arts they don't get WuShu(well at least not all wushu).

[Brad]

He had a wife in China?? I didn't know. I thought rthat the only wife he had as from the US.
And hair. Then he came to the U.S., drank, slept with women, had kid, got married. Dude never was a real monk, and still isn't. The Shaolin Temple was devastated during the cultural revolution(possibly even before then). When Shaolin Temple was filmed, Jet Li found three monks there, none of whom new any martial arts. They had to bring in outsiders to train the new generation.


I guess a 16 year old kid with 2 years of training doesn't qualify as knowing or having either one....
15 year old kid... :D


Yeah I know of the cultural revouiton and the ban of traditional kung fu by the goverment but still even inside that wushu crap that what left in Shaolin there is a very traditional core, like Gene said....
Pretty much ALL civillian wushu was banned. Also, I think you're the last person that should be calling wushu "crap".

[Brad]

Oh, about you making things up... I was refering to the "undefeated" Shaolin fighters, attaching these names to undefeated fighting records. Though I guess it's more likely you were just believing someone else's made up stories. I used to believe a lot of the same things you did though, until I started learning wushu.

[Shao Lin Long]

When I was five my parents, being Buddhists, took me to the Shaolin Temple because they were worried that I had been so sick. It wasn't anything like the movies or what you imagine. It was right in the middle of the Cultural Revolution and Mao had outlawed all religion. There was no abbot wearing the red and yellow robes with the shaved head and the long white beard. Nobody wore the monk's uniform until around 1980 after the end of the Cultural Revolution.


The Temple had been destroyed not only by the current government but also throughout history by many warring dynasties. Only the foundation and some walls survived - but it was never completely demolished! The Temple as we see it now has been largely reconstructed in the last ten years.

They took me to see the head monk, Shi Shing Jen. At that time there hadn't been an abbot in three hundred years. He was eventually appointed abbot in 1986 but died only seven months later and there has not been on since his death. I called him Sigong, my Grandmaster; he was my Sifu's Sifu (master's master). It was he who accepted me. I didn't have to do any Kung Fu, he just had a look at me and he knew. When you are at a very high spiritual level you can read people's faces and know them immediately. The Chinese say "yuan fen"; in English you say "destiny". My parents were very happy to leave me in the hands of Buddha.

My name was changed as soon as I entered the Temple. My name at birth was "Duan Gen Shan". Once I entered the Temple my Grandmaster and masters renamed me Shi Yan Ming. All Buddhist monks take the family name "Shi" as in Shakyamuni, the founder of Buddhism, because we follow Buddha. "Yan" means "34th generation" at Shaolin Temple. "Ming" means "perpetual" like the cycle of the sun or moon, or infinite, like the Dharma wheel, which never stops.

There were only 16 or 17 monks at the Temple at the time and I was by far the youngest monk there. Most of the other monks were in their seventies. Five is very young for some people to be away from their parents but not everybody is the same. My grandmaster, masters, and kung fu uncles took care of me like parents. They loved me very much and I loved them very much. Also, it was not safe to stay at the Temple all the time because Mao's Red Guard had absolute power and they could do anything they wanted anywhere at anytime. Therefore none of the monks could live there all the time and I got to see my parents quite often even though they lived about 200 miles (approx. 300 km) from the Temple. Sometimes I even had to go back and live with them because the Temple was so dangerous.

My masters were Liu Shin Yi and Shen Ping An. They taught me different styles - kung fu and acupuncture. They were Shaolin disciples, not monks, that lived outside the Temple. At that time because there were no walls, the Temple was completely open - many people came and went. I lived at the Temple but all my masters didn't always live with us. I had other masters outside the Temple that taught me how to read faces and palms.

Inside the Temple I began learning forms, fighting, and Chan Buddhism right away because I was living there. It's very normal: you are there, you just do it. It's like you're here in America; you have to speak English. We all practiced together, me and the older monks. There are no rules, you just learn everything naturally. I developed everything early.

The Chinese say if you are poor, like Shaolin Temple and my family were poor, you develop everything early. I started to understand a lot and all masters recognized that I was so smart but so bad. I was like a little monkey, I always played tricks on people. For instance, I would dig a hole in the ground, put something on top of it and stay and wait for someone to walk on it and fall in. I even played tricks on my masters but I don't have to tell you about that.

They almost always knew it was me. If I got caught I would have to do horse stance until my legs were numb and swollen or I would have to do headstands until all the blood went to my head and I felt like my eyes were going to pop out. Or my masters would hit me, which is very normal for China, not like America.

I also used to give my brothers a lot of trouble. If they talked while we were practicing it made me mad. I used to say,"We're practicing, why are you talking?" If they would keep talking, once, twice, I would hit them with a staff very often. I started doing this very young, when I was maybe 7 or 8 years old and I kept doing it when I was older. I wish I could do the same to my students now!

Even when I was a child I never wanted to lose; I was very competitive. My brothers and I would be doing Chin Na or fighting and when we would fall down at the same time I had to be on top of them. Even if we were tired after hours and hours of fighting I didn't want to stop. Sometimes I went too far and hurt my brothers and of course they would get mad at me but it's always like that when you practice martial arts. They would only be mad for a short time - we were family.

I also used to get into fights with people outside the Temple. We might go to eat outside and people would say bad things about the Temple or my brothers. I would kick them and made my disciples kick them too. And here in America I feel the same; if you want to say something bad about Shaolin Temple or Shi Yan Ming, buy a ticket, go to China or come to New York. You know who I am and where I am. Sometime you have to use different language to teach people, like action language. Buddha said:"There are millions of different doors for millions of different people."

I met my Buddhism Sifu, Shi Yong Chen, almost immediately after I entered the Temple but didn't begin seriously studying with him until I was about 14 or 15. Learning the sutras was natural. Everybody was praying and you hear it a lot and you learn it. I understood Chan and reached enlightenment very early. I don't remember it being a sudden moment but it was very early. Things became so clear, everything was deep but simple.

Daily Routine

Just like life at the Temple, it sounds like a hard life but it was so simple. You have to love what you do. We got up at 4:30am in the morning and practiced for two hours. At 6:30am we ate breakfast - mostly steamed tofu and vegetables. Since I can remember I ate a lot. Still eat a lot. From 7 to 8am we would pray, read, meditate, or relax. From 8:00 to 11:30am practice again, pray, or study Buddhism, clean, or do work for the Temple. At 11:30am we ate lunch, sometimes noodles, rice, mantau. Most monks don't eat past noon but Shaolin Temple monks are different. But many monks would visit from other temples so out of respect we would have lunch at 11:30am so they could eat. From noon to 1:00pm we would relax. From 1 to 5:30pm we would practice, pray. From 5:30 to 6:00pm we would have dinner; noodles, rice, soup. From 6 to 7pm relax. From 7 to 10pm practice or pray again. From 10pm to 1am some brothers walk around the Temple and check the incense and make sure it's still burning. From 1 to 4am they switch and another shift walks around.

We slept on a piece of wood with a blanket on it. Sometimes we would use our clothes for a pillow. It was very comfortable and very good for your back. In America beds are too soft. In 1996 when my kung fu brother, Master Shi De Yang came to visit me he stayed at my house. I let him sleep in the bedroom so that he could have the privacy and the comfortable bed. The morning after the first night when I went in to wake him up I found him sleeping on the floor, he too found the bed too soft!


There was no electricity at the Temple until 1981 or '82 and no running water until 1986. Before we got running water we had to get it from the rivers in the mountains just outside the Temple, or we collected rainwater or drew it from a well. Most of the monks were unhappy when they brought in the running water because the Chinese believe in Feng Shui and digging up the ground and putting pipes underground is like cutting your veins out.

During the summer we would shower often because the cold water was no problem in the heat, but in winter sometimes it would be a couple of months between showers. We would wash our face and our underarms but we wouldn't jump completely under the cold water. Sometimes we would even use our sweat to wash ourselves. Even now in China most places don't have showers available. You have to know somebody or pay somebody. Still today there is only cold running water at the Temple.

Before the Temple opened up in the early 80's we could eat meat inside. After it was reconstructed there were other monks visiting so we didn't eat meat indoors. Shaolin Temple monks are different from other Buddhist monks, we are allowed to eat meat and drink alcohol. During the Tang Dynasty the Shaolin monks helped the Emperor Li Shi Min. He decreed thereafter that they could eat meat and drink alcohol. This is the story depicted in Jet Li's first movie Shaolin Temple.

Shaolin Temple was the movie that changed everything. After that movie came out many tourist started visiting the Temple. Our daily routine changed because we had to take time to take care of the tourists. It might seem bad but it was good too. More people visit the Temple, more people know about the Shaolin Temple Martial Arts, Chan Buddhism, and China. You have to be happy for that.

Right around the same time Shaolin Temple came out both of my parents died of lung cancer within 6 months of each other. Their jobs were very stressful and they were heavy smokers. I was 16. Even when my parents died, I don't think they died. I think they are still with me all the time.

After they passed away I took care of my younger brother and my older brothers took care of the younger siblings. I still keep in contact with them. They can call me, I can call them.

[Shao Lin Long]

cont..

People have to appreciate and understand now. A hundred years ago you had to take a boat from America to China, now you can take a plane. You have to understand yourself and love and appreciate everything we have right now; you have to bring yourself to a higher level.

I hope this article helps people learn more about Shaolin Temple and China. Shaolin Temple Martial Arts and Chan Buddhism are very powerful. They helped me through hard times and can help anybody. I encourage anybody who is interested to go visit the Temple in China or come see me here in New York. If you get to the Temple in China and see all the tourists and see all the things for sale, or if you come here to New York and I do not have a Temple surrounded by mountains and a forest, don't be surprised or disappointed.

Open your mind and your heart. Believe in yourself, trust yourself and you will find all the answers to all your questions."
Amitabha (Buddha Bless You)
Shi Yan Ming

[ShaolinTiger00]

Originally posted by Shao Lin Long


I didn't know.

I was young once.

:)

Brad, do you know Lou Diaz? Lou was very good wushu guy.

[Shao Lin Long]

AS far as Modern WuShu goes, It was ser up by mao's goverment to transform true fighting kung fu into a flowery demostrative art.
This gave the goverment control over anti-goverment kung fu groups. If I offended you by saying that Wu Shu was crap I'm sorry. Wushu is great for health and cmpetition and condition, but iut doesn't work for fighting. In this aspect it dergraded the art. But since know San Shou is being integrated in moder Wushu training(Tao Lu/San Shou) well I guess it brings back somethings that has to do with fighting.

In my school I train both Traditional and Modern Wushu. I'm a big traditional guy, but I really like the way wushu moves, and I also like to do its forms because they arer very blood pumping and they make you sweat. I think Wu Shu is the most complete sport becuase you use everything and you do everthing. It makes your heart pump even more than gymnastics.

[Shao Lin Long]

I also used to get into fights with people outside the Temple. We might go to eat outside and people would say bad things about the Temple or my brothers. I would kick them and made my disciples kick them too. And here in America I feel the same; if you want to say something bad about Shaolin Temple or Shi Yan Ming, buy a ticket, go to China or come to New York. You know who I am and where I am. Sometime you have to use different language to teach people, like action language. Buddha said:"There are millions of different doors for millions of different people."

Here is what I tld you about....

[ShaolinTiger00]

Wushu is great for health and cmpetition and condition, but iut doesn't work for fighting.

I've always found this fascinating..

So you believe that your traditional air punching makes you a better fighter than the wushu air puncher, even though you just admitted that he is by far much more athletic than you?

[Brad]

AS far as Modern WuShu goes, It was ser up by mao's goverment to transform true fighting kung fu into a flowery demostrative art.
A popular myth.


This gave the goverment control over anti-goverment kung fu groups.
What anti government kungfu groups? Modern wushu came about before the ban on martial arts(which effected both traditional and modern wushu folks... a big reason Shi Yan Ming doesn't bother with application in his trad. or modern forms!). Wushu was a solid martial art complete with full contact fighting and even weapons sparring before the cultural revolution, created by martial arts masters. It was practiced along side traditional wushu, obviously not intended to replace traditional.


Wushu is great for health and cmpetition and condition, but iut doesn't work for fighting.
Depends on whom you go to, when they learned, and where they learned it. You have very little experience in modern or traditional wushu though, and nothing to really base your opinion on. Who do you train with? Shi Yan Ming?

[Shao Lin Long]

No I don't beleive that punching air makes you fight better. I beleive that learning traditional forms fighting applications and practicing them endlessley with a partner until they become second nature to you and then practicing sparring and practicing who to aplly this aplications while in sparring makes you a great fighter.

Even tough now even some traditional forms have a little bit of wu shu in them.

My approach in fighting better is this:
Learning the form(patterns/sets)
Aquiring the skill to perform this sets on an opponent(acurracy strenght,etc)
Learning the combat application
Practicing the Combat applications with a partner
learning to apply this combat applications while sparring

[Shao Lin Long]

Yeah and I really don't agree with Shi Yan Ming about the issue of combat application. Of course if one is so skill tht ones opponent doesn't stand a chace then why bother with applications and forms. But if you see Shi Yan Ming arrive in the Temple during the cultural revolution so I guess his training was more modern-minded.


But then again maybe you agree with Shi DE Yang in this points:
"If you practice a form thousands of times you will know how to use it in a fight"

[Shao Lin Long]

Oh and Mao didn't ban Modern Wushu, he encouraged it. WuShu recieved all kind of support from the goverment because this was a way to say that they had preserved the 'Chinese tradition".
As far as the anti-goverment groups go, do you know anything about the chinese underground societies and the triads.

[Brad]

To expand ShaolinTiger00's comment into what we were talking about in regards to modern vs. traditional...

There's really very little difference between the modern standardized forms(excluding the new compulsories released in 2000). The techniques are identical, except modern adds some acrobatics for competitions. Maybe you believe that learning to do a aerial cartwheel or a butterfly twist suddenly negates the dozens of other techniques practiced over and over? Standardized wushu practiced as originally created contains, punching, kicking, throwing, grappling(locks, etc.), hard conditioning(bag work, limb striking, etc.), and yes, even sparring. If we include modern wushu's taiji branch, we even have qigong ;) Like many many people who claim to be traditionalists though, the modern wushu athletes tend to ignore certain aspects of our training... a surprising amound practice less than half the forms even. The main difference I find between modern wushu and traditional is in the attitudes of the athletes. Though I think in general modern wushu athletes tend to be more honest than traditionalists on how they train. If a modern wushu athlete doesn't train to fight, they usually admit it to themselves and others(and are pretty secure with themselves... you'd have to be to wonder around in pink silk :D)

[Brad]

Oh and Mao didn't ban Modern Wushu, he encouraged it.
A few recieved special training to be used as propaganda tools on tours(Jet Li & company), but other than that there was no development in wushu during most of the cultural revolution. Modern was effected exactly the same as traditional.

[Shao Lin Long]

Originally posted by Brad
To expand ShaolinTiger00's comment into what we were talking about in regards to modern vs. traditional...

There's really very little difference between the modern standardized forms(excluding the new compulsories released in 2000). The techniques are identical, except modern adds some acrobatics for competitions. Maybe you believe that learning to do a aerial cartwheel or a butterfly twist suddenly negates the dozens of other techniques practiced over and over? Standardized wushu practiced as originally created contains, punching, kicking, throwing, grappling(locks, etc.), hard conditioning(bag work, limb striking, etc.), and yes, even sparring. If we include modern wushu's taiji branch, we even have qigong ;) Like many many people who claim to be traditionalists though, the modern wushu athletes tend to ignore certain aspects of our training... a surprising amound practice less than half the forms even. The main difference I find between modern wushu and traditional is in the attitudes of the athletes. Though I think in general modern wushu athletes tend to be more honest than traditionalists on how they train. If a modern wushu athlete doesn't train to fight, they usually admit it to themselves and others(and are pretty secure with themselves... you'd have to be to wonder around in pink silk :D)

No Aerials and tricks won't make you a wors fighter. But Wushu forms tend to ezgerrate moves and chage the way it supposed to be done for it to look better. You are absolutetly right about the attiutde. This is also one the reasons why wushu is more popular now in China. Most people just aren't training to fight and killed others any more so they train to compete in a another way. Even Full contact sparring is train in ways that you won't kill an oppoents. and I have got to admit that finding a quality traditional teacher is alittle bit hard nowadays. With all those mc dojos out there....

[Brad]

"If you practice a form thousands of times you will know how to use it in a fight"
I disagree with Shi De Yang too then. If that were true, then the White Crane vs. Wu taiji fight that's been posted numerous times would've looked more like White Crane vs. Wu taiji
:D

[Sim Koning]

China is still the place for kung fu, maybe you are right about Shaolin in the Temple itself, but beleive me that the were/are alot of traditional master in China. Do you truly think that there isn't a traditional Shaolin kung fu master in China left????


Heh, most of them fled to Hong Kong or the US during the Cultural Revolution. I have far more respect for my own Sifu than any of these guys running around at the temple serving as living tourist attractions. The kung fu I practice is probably closer to what real Shao Lin used to be than what 90% of those “monks” are practicing at the temple.


Many other schools had kung fu fighting programs before then but he was the first one to really start San Shou in the US as it is known now.

Our school had San Sau (Cantonese for free sparring, mandarin=San Shou) but it wasn't until recently that we started focusing our classes on the actual sport of San Shou.



He had a wife in China?? I didn't know. I thought rthat the only wife he had as from the US.

A married Shao Lin monk, sigh….. at least its not as bad as pedophile priest



tuiquandao(I don't think its bad because of taekwondo because crosstraining with it can really helkp your kicks, but because they're teaching this in a place where its supposd to be all about tradition, Shaolin).

That’s kinda funny and sad, because the original system of the temple, back when it was populated by real shaolin quan fa masters, had just as many kicks as Tae Kwon Do and more effective ones in my opinion. I know because northern Shaolin is part of what I am learning.


In my school I train both Traditional and Modern Wushu. I'm a big traditional guy, but I really like the way wushu moves, and I also like to do its forms because they arer very blood pumping and they make you sweat. I think Wu Shu is the most complete sport becuase you use everything and you do everthing. It makes your heart pump even more than gymnastics.

I’m finding it harder and harder to like Wu Shu. Simply put, it makes us look bad. I don’t want people that are just becoming familiar with the martial arts to see that and think, “that’s kung fu? It looks like gymnastics and ballet; I think I’ll go to that karate school instead”.


I also used to get into fights with people outside the Temple. We might go to eat outside and people would say bad things about the Temple or my brothers. I would kick them and made my disciples kick them too. And here in America I feel the same; if you want to say something bad about Shaolin Temple or Shi Yan Ming, buy a ticket, go to China or come to New York. You know who I am and where I am. Sometime you have to use different language to teach people, like action language. Buddha said:"There are millions of different doors for millions of different people."

I'm sure this part made Mr. Ross laugh pretty hard:)

Keep in mind Long, the temple you see today has become a tourist attraction. There is a reason the government did what it did after Jet’s movie, they realized the temple could make them $$.

The temple WAS home to some of the greatest martial artists in China at one time, but that was a long, long time ago. This was because many of the monks were retired battle hardened warriors seeking to repay their past karmic debts. Some believe this is how shaolin quan really came to be, that martial arts were brought there by soldiers, not Da Mao.

[Shao Lin Long]

I got a question:

Why was modern wushu created before the cultural revolution if its almost exactly the same as the traditional??

[Brad]

No Aerials and tricks won't make you a wors fighter. But Wushu forms tend to ezgerrate moves and chage the way it supposed to be done for it to look better.
Wushu's supposed "exageration" comes a great deal from Cha Quan. GLW can explain it very well. A lot of athletes in China don't focus as much on the basics anymore though due to the wonky new requirements that change every year(very strange new difficulties).

[Shao Lin Long]

I agree with you in 95% of what you said. I also think that the reason Shaolin Quan was made was because of the retired generals and not Damo, although Damo's exersices give the monks the streghen and vitality to practice martial arts. I'm also find it sad that TAiQuanDao is being integrated now in Shaolin too because Northern Shaolin is actually the ancestors of taekwondo's ansestors:Tae-kyon and Soo bak Do.
I agree that alot of master fled to HK and the US but I still beleive that even in Shaolin(even if its more than 5% of what is being taught) There are still great trditional masters(like Gene Said the older monks) and through out China.

[Brad]

I got a question:

Why was modern wushu created before the cultural revolution if its almost exactly the same as the traditional??
A couple reasons I've heard...
1.They wanted a common ground for competition in China. Standardized forms helps eleminate some political problems. Old competitions would have the athletes perform a compulsory form to qualify for the main competition, and then in the main competition they would perform their individual style. Drunken boxing, duck style, etc. I'll have to ask my coach sometime about specifics, as he was a competitor back then(national all around champ in 1959, I think).
2.New more scientific training methods were developed by combining the knowledge of sports scientists and wushu masters coming up with a basic training regimin that allowed you to become stronger, faster, more agile, etc. in a shorter amount of time. Got rid of some sillier training methods like holding a horse stance over a well at noon every thursday to increase qi power and crap like that.
3.People weren't as interested in martial arts as much any more. Guns and stuff like that made wushu a waste of time in a lot of people's views, so they wanted to get people interested in it again.

BTW, another random fact, did you know that Wang Ziping, one of the founding fathers of modern wushu, was placed under house arrest during the cultural revolution?

[Shao Lin Long]

What wrong with holding a horsestance over a well at noon ???;) :D

[Sim Koning]

The biggest difference I’ve noticed between modern wu shu and traditional forms is the forms are not repetitive. In traditional forms you do the set of techniques with your right hand, then the exact same techniques with your left hand. Or you will do a set of techniques in one direction and then do the same techniques in the opposite direction. This is not done in modern wu shu. Otherwise, yeah, they are pretty much the same.

Oh, I almost forgot, the swords in modern wu shu are made out of tin foil, the ones in traditional school are made of steel, another big difference.

[Sim Koning]

Oh I forgot, wu shu has all that flowery gymnastics crap at the beginning of every form, just like a floor routine or something, usually gives me an urge to vomit when I see it. What was wrong with the simple cat stance shaolin salute anyway, not ghey enough?

[Brad]

The biggest difference I’ve noticed between modern wu shu and traditional forms is the forms are not repetitive. In traditional forms you do the set of techniques with your right hand, then the exact same techniques with your left hand. Or you will do a set of techniques in one direction and then do the same techniques in the opposite direction. This is not done in modern wu shu. Otherwise, yeah, they are pretty much the same.

A lot of schools will drill all the techniques found in the forms as individual line drills, training both sides that way. There's less emphasis on learning through forms in modern wushu, I think.


Oh, I almost forgot, the swords in modern wu shu are made out of tin foil, the ones in traditional school are made of steel, another big difference.

The newer competition swords get rid of that tin foil characteristic for the most part(no more snapping :p) and are heavier. The balance is MUCH better now too :) But they're not required over here and they're 3 times as much as the "tin foil" swords so they're just not super popular over here yet. I'm very happy with mine though(it's much better for taiji, I think).

[Brad]

Oh I forgot, wu shu has all that flowery gymnastics crap at the beginning of every form, just like a floor routine or something, usually gives me an urge to vomit when I see it. What was wrong with the simple cat stance shaolin salute anyway, not ghey enough?
troll :p

[Sim Koning]

A lot of schools will drill all the techniques found in the forms as individual line drills, training both sides that way. There's less emphasis on learning through forms in modern wushu, I think.

Forms for us are meant to be a sort of mental reference book. The important thing is to realize how to translate the techniques from forms to fighting, because the application isn’t always obvious.

[Sim Koning]

troll

sorry, coulnd't help it, that was actually meant as a joke, I wasn't being serious.

[Shao Lin Long]

Originally posted by Sim Koning


Forms for us are meant to be a sort of mental reference book. The important thing is to realize how to translate the techniques from forms to fighting, because the application isn’t always obvious.
Absolutly, that what called the transition from form to combat application.

[Shao Lin Long]

Altough one has to train until one does not think,ie it becomes second nature. That what SYM doesn't understand.He says that he odesn't teach application because it makes the student think in a fight but thier meant to be practiced until they become second-nature to you. And thats whats called form formlessnes to form.;)

[Brad]

sorry, coulnd't help it, that was actually meant as a joke, I wasn't being serious.
That's ok, I've seen some competition forms that have made me want to vomit too :D It was still a nice trolling technique though :p ;)

[Sim Koning]

I'm sorry, Shi Yan Ming is more full of sh!t than a outhouse. He doesn't know the applications to his own forms, so of course he is going to say "I don't believe in them". Just like someone who can't fight will say, "I don't believe in sparring, our techniques are too deadly?".

Forms are just a more complex form of shadow boxing. Just like shadow boxing, you practice set combinations first until they become second nature, then you do it free form, then you get in a ring and punch someone in the head with it, there you go, application.

[Shao Lin Long]

That bendy dstell used by the wushu guys in competition is called Wushu steel and it is practical for demostartions since it light and flashy.
There is another type of steel called combat steel thats heavy and rigid and it is meant for practice since it develops strengh
There is a happy medium steel called spring steel, this one is not so light not so heavy and it bends alittle bit but not as much as wushu steel.

[Sim Koning]

That bendy dstell used by the wushu guys in competition is called Wushu steel and it is practical for demostartions since it light and flashy.

I know, I'm an assistant instructor in Jow Gar Kuen, I know all about the different kinds of swords you can buy. I still think wushu steel is just way to make a tinfoil sword sound cooler.

[Shao Lin Long]

Yeah but the sad thing about the application is that you don't see them in sparring competition because peolple learn and practice applications but they don't know how to use them while sparring even if they already are second nature to them. So they stick with the tradeing blows sequences and stick with the basics(which is actually not a bad thing). That why kung fu looks like kickboxing in a saprring competition. This is a bad habit that I think people should overcome. But imagine if there isn't much decent traditional masters tere is even less that teach you who to sapr this way. Sifu Wong Kiew Kit who I deeply respect is one of these teachers.

P.S. This is also the reason people think tht San Shou is Chinese Kickboxing.

Yeah and I agree about SYM not knowing his fighing applications, it seems he was trained more modern minded.

[Brad]

Wong Kiew Kit's a bit too out there for my tastes... I wouldn't mind learning his moving clouds with qi technique though ;) The weather around here's sucked lately :D

[Shao Lin Long]

I was reading some articles about the whole fake v.s real monk issue in russbo.com and I learn that alot of shaolin monks are also displeased with SYM carachter and behavior. Shi Yan Chang is one of them. Shi eng Guan is another one(in fact he even help SYM set up his first school but was disillusioned by Yan Ming's behavior and character.)

[Sim Koning]

Yeah but the sad thing about the application is that you don't see them in sparring competition because peolple learn and practice applications but they don't know how to use them while sparring even if they already are second nature to them. So they stick with the tradeing blows sequences and stick with the basics(which is actually not a bad thing). That why kung fu looks like kickboxing in a saprring competition. This is a bad habit that I think people should overcome. But imagine if there isn't much decent traditional masters tere is even less that teach you who to sapr this way. Sifu Wong Kiew Kit who I deeply respect is one of these teachers.

I don’t know about the forms you are learning because I’ve never seen them, but I use the majority of the techniques in my forms all the time, with boxing gloves on. Most of the techniques in Jow Gar forms are very practical. They are mostly straight punches, hooks in different angles, uppercuts, back fists etc... So when you see us spar, you would think, wow that’s just kickboxing, they aren’t using the techniques from their forms! But in reality we are.

You have to realize that punch, block, punch, block crap in the movies is all BS, real kung fu fighting really doesn’t look much different than what you see in the ring, at least with the style I’m learning at least.

[Shao Lin Long]

Originally posted by Brad
Wong Kiew Kit's a bit too out there for my tastes... I wouldn't mind learning his moving clouds with qi technique though ;) The weather around here's sucked lately :D
Yeah some things he says seem strange but alot of things like moving clouds with qi are just a name they aren't supposed to be taken seriously. But he is an excellent traditional master/teacher he is all about it. You just have to see things in different perspectives to accept some things.

[Brad]

Yeah some things he says seem strange but alot of things like moving clouds with qi are just a name they aren't supposed to be taken seriously.
No, he described literally moving the clouds with qi in one of his writings... you may be able to find a discussion about it on cyberkwoon.com somewhere still :p Curing cancer from a distance using qigong is another odd claim of his.

[Sim Koning]

Wow, what a frigin nut case

[Shao Lin Long]

Originally posted by Sim Koning


I don’t know about the forms you are learning because I’ve never seen them, but I use the majority of the techniques in my forms all the time, with boxing gloves on. Most of the techniques in Jow Gar forms are very practical. They are mostly straight punches, hooks in different angles, uppercuts, back fists etc... So when you see us spar, you would think, wow that’s just kickboxing, they aren’t using the techniques from their forms! But in reality we are.

You have to realize that punch, block, punch, block crap in the movies is all BS, real kung fu fighting really doesn’t look much different than what you see in the ring, at least with the style I’m learning at least.

Well if that your view of it then I accept it!!! but just a question, how much times in sparring rings where to kung fu guys spar we see peolple performing counter lik blocking ones punch simultaneously grabing their wrist pulling and at the same time delivering a swingin punch to the face. Or peolple doing a Chin na techniques like iinterceptind an opponents punch and twisting hteir arm to trhow them to the ground, maybe those simple aplicattion like block punch, punch kick combinations,etc(like I said the basics).

[Shao Lin Long]

Originally posted by Brad

No, he described literally moving the clouds with qi in one of his writings... you may be able to find a discussion about it on cyberkwoon.com somewhere still :p Curing cancer from a distance using qigong is another odd claim of his.
Jajajaj LOL, although qiqong has been know to cure disease, It great for ones health. IN other words the whole tyhing about moving the clouds,not a chance, but the thing about cancer is believable.

[Sim Koning]

Well if that your view of it then I accept it!!! but just a question, how much times in sparring rings where to kung fu guys spar we see peolple performing counter lik blocking ones punch simultaneously grabing their wrist pulling and at the same time delivering a swingin punch to the face. Or peolple doing a Chin na techniques like iinterceptind an opponents punch and twisting hteir arm to trhow them to the ground, maybe those simple aplicattion like block punch, punch kick combinations,etc(like I said the basics).

Those things are much easier said than done. It’s very hard to catch a guys arm when he pulls it back as fast as he delivered it. Just have a boxer throw a jab or cross and see if you can grab it for example. Though when fighting an untrained opponent its relatively easy to catch his arm and do whatever, but that’s because he is slow and untrained. If you have two very well trained fighters, you are going to see something that doesn’t look much different than a kickboxing match, not the other way around.

[Shao Lin Long]

Originally posted by Sim Koning


Those things are much easier said than done. It’s very hard to catch a guys arm when he pulls it back as fast as he delivered it. Just have a boxer throw a jab or cross and see if you can grab it for example. Though when fighting an untrained opponent its relatively easy to catch his arm and do whatever, but that’s because he is slow and untrained. If you have two very well trained fighters, you are going to see something that doesn’t look much different than a kickboxing match, not the other way around.

"Ones technique should start after ones opponents but finish before"- Asian proverb

[Sim Koning]

That's a nice proverb, but using Chin Na on a highly trained fighter is a lot harder than you think. Like I said, go try it, have someone who is a good boxer of any style throw a punch at you and you can try to grab it. Yang Jwing Ming warns people of this in his books.

[Shao Lin Long]

well at least Wong Kiew Kit thinks that todays' Shaolin monks aren't real monks.

[Sim Koning]

Too bad he doesn’t realize that he lost his grip on something called reality.

[Shao Lin Long]

Originally posted by Sim Koning
That's a nice proverb, but using Chin Na on a highly trained fighter is a lot harder than you think. Like I said, go try it, have someone who is a good boxer of any style throw a punch at you and you can try to grab it. Yang Jwing Ming warns people of this in his books.
Yes I know that it is hard to catch a punch of a fast puncher but Yang Jwing Ming also says that the first step of Chin Na is "Opening the door or the way"(causing a distraction or an opening to be able to catch the "punch) then trapping the punch so the opponent is unable to withdrwas, ramaber the punch may go fast and the technique seem slow while written but in action it mybe as quick as the punch.(an example if one is being grab by the wrist and the opponent is ver y strong we wont be able to perform any chin na with out opening the way or causing adistraction like kicking one o his knees to make him lose attention then in those micro seconds one performs the technique. Yang Jwing Ming another grewat master, I love how he teaches chin na.

[Shao Lin Long]

Originally posted by Sim Koning
Too bad he doesn’t realize that he lost his grip on something called reality.

don't diss him because of one thing, this guy is a very good techer and a true kung fu master, just because he says some things that don't seem logical to you, don't underestimate him.

[Sim Koning]

Again, this is something you are going to want to do with a untrained guy you don't want to hurt, because nomrally its much easier and less risky to hit him again after you stunned him with the first strike, then again, and again and again. Once again Yang Jwing Ming says this himself.

[Shao Lin Long]

No one said that performing Chin Na is hard bt then again what truly doesn't require hard work in the martial arts. It the same is if one doesn't kick fast then ones opponent is likely to grab most(if not ll of our kicks). he may get one in if he feints and fakes but then again its better if one trains the kicks to be fast.

[Brad]

Brad, do you know Lou Diaz? Lou was very good wushu guy
I know of him, but never met him. He was on the U.S. team just before I started wushu, I think('95?). I didn't really start getting involved with the larger wushu community until around 2000 though.

[Brad]

don't diss him because of one thing, this guy is a very good techer
His students seem just a nutty. I don't really understand what makes him a great teacher. The videos I've seen of them look pretty darn bad, and they get online talking about things like being able to spontaneously do styles they never learned through their qigong. It's a bizzare little cult over there.

[Shao Lin Long]

Originally posted by Brad

His students seem just a nutty. I don't really understand what makes him a great teacher. The videos I've seen of them look pretty darn bad, and they get online talking about things like being able to spontaneously do styles they never learned through their qigong. It's a bizzare little cult over there.
Jajjajajaj those guys beleive exegeratetly in chi. Thats nothing wrong. You also have to consider that the guy holds thousand dollars seminars about chi kung and he says that if an attendee isn't please with the result that he doesn't have to pay a cent. And he has true Shaolin lineage to one of the monks that escaped the temple while it was burned by th manchus. Even if thsy seem shading with their claims about the internall arts(which we can says anything about until one witness it)the way he trains/teach in the externall aspect he is superb.

[Shao Lin Long]

At least its not as strange as the Chewbacca master of Shaolin-Do.

[ShaolinTiger00]

Forms are just a more complex form of shadow boxing. Just like shadow boxing, you practice set combinations first until they become second nature, then you do it free form, then you get in a ring and punch someone in the head with it, there you go, application.

Sim, I understand where you're coming from, but I'm going to disagree. There is a very big difference between forms and shadow boxing.

The practicality of shadowboxing (which is used as a warm up drill, hardly the basis of our training like form work to kungfu) is that it is VERY SHORT BURSTS of strikes and then an immediate return to a stance. ex. guard. slip slip 1-2 guard pivot. 1.1.1-2. slip guard. bob. hook-cross hook. guard..

It is mimicing real fighting, not a 5 minute chain of pre arranged movemements. (esp if you're shadowboxing mma style with sprawls, knees and kicks as well)


btw, I have a long history w/ Jow Ga. I started w/ sifu Hoy Lee and later with Mike Barry. from Siu Hung Kune to Teet Geen Chune, I've done the forms.

[stubbs]

i haven't read all of this thread but in summary, san shou = good. right?
________
Upskirt mature (http://www.****tube.com/categories/1122/mature/videos/1)

[lkfmdc]

San Shou Guru is correct, the first US person to be a "san shou athlete" under the modern format is Jason Yee

Jason Yee also set up the first US program based upon what we now think of as the San Shou program. He is a pioneer in the sport, a champion, a trainer of champions, and a friend of mine! :p

I have been involved in the modern version of the sport since 1994. But my teacher was a San Shou instructor (ie a CQC instructor) in the PLA since the 1940's. So we always did military San Shou, meaning we always did fighting. And I've been teaching fighting since I started teaching in 1988.

[3rdrateIMAkilla]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Brad
[B]
. I don't really understand what makes him a great teacher.



Things like this are very subtle, and not easily seen to an average observer, or internet critic. All I know is, try out his qigong methods , or similar methods that are as good, ( not many out there)! Practice consistently, and see if your opinion of what he says doesn't change . You will be energized beyong what you thought possible, but you have to really do it consistently

[Shao Lin Long]

Originally posted by 3rdrateIMAkilla
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Brad
[B]
. I don't really understand what makes him a great teacher.



Things like this are very subtle, and not easily seen to an average observer, or internet critic. All I know is, try out his qigong methods , or similar methods that are as good, ( not many out there)! Practice consistently, and see if your opinion of what he says doesn't change . You will be energized beyong what you thought possible, but you have to really do it consistently

Yes, You can't say that he is crazy if you haven't tried out what he does and experience it yourself.

[Shao Lin Long]

I also used to get into fights with people outside the Temple. We might go to eat outside and people would say bad things about the Temple or my brothers. I would kick them and made my disciples kick them too. And here in America I feel the same; if you want to say something bad about Shaolin Temple or Shi Yan Ming, buy a ticket, go to China or come to New York. You know who I am and where I am. Sometime you have to use different language to teach people, like action language. Buddha said:"There are millions of different doors for millions of different people."- SYM

Did you even see this??

[lkfmdc]

So you posted some more nonsense by the so called "monk"

Is it any surprise he'd say stuff like that? But when he got into trouble, for crap he himself started, he didn't live up to the hype :rolleyes:

He can keep posting about how tough he is, the reality is that he talked crap about us, when confronted with it, he backed down, then threatened to get a restraining order.

But what do you expect from a guy who claims to be a monk, but has an abandoned wife in China, a wife here in the US, drinks, smokes and eats pork? :rolleyes:

[SifuAbel]

Originally posted by ShaolinTiger00


btw, I have a long history w/ Jow Ga. I started w/ sifu Hoy Lee and later with Mike Barry. from Siu Hung Kune to Teet Geen Chune, I've done the forms.

Were you any good at them?

[SifuAbel]

Originally posted by lkfmdc
..........and eats pork?

You mean he's not keeping Kosher?!?!?


Oi vey!!

[SifuAbel]

Originally posted by lkfmdc


I have been involved in the modern version of the sport since 1994. But my teacher was a San Shou instructor (ie a CQC instructor) in the PLA since the 1940's. So we always did military San Shou, meaning we always did fighting. And I've been teaching fighting since I started teaching in 1988.

I started teaching at about the same time(88-89). We did san shou type sparring (and thats what we called it, sparring) for generations before then. So I could say the same thing. But the sport , the way it is now, beyond it being a small regional disorganized venue that is was then, with its brand name, didn't happen until much later.

[lkfmdc]

Originally posted by SifuAbel


I started teaching at about the same time(88-89). We did san shou type sparring (and thats what we called it, sparring) for generations before then. So I could say the same thing. But the sport , the way it is now, beyond it being a small regional disorganized venue that is was then, with its brand name, didn't happen until much later.

The term "san shou" has been said to exist since 1925, I can verify it's use back to manuals used in the military in the 1930's and the most famous san shou text that was widely distributed dates to 1956. I was aware of the term when I started teaching in 1988. I even explained to some muddle headed NACMAF people what it was when they were still just doing "full contact kung fu" and invited the Russian San Shou team to attend. Tha was in 1992. The difference between the Russian team training in a san shou program vs. the American team, randomly selected from local kung fu schools, was marked. I sat ringside and cringed at how badly US got beaten that night. Perhaps that was step #1 in my evolution

I believed that KF people should be good fighters so I started promoting events in San Shou format dating back to 1994.

My own teacher's curriculum was a bit different than the format that the IWUF pushed starting in the 1990's. We did elbows and knees, we were less side kick oriented. I picked up on teh side kick strategy because it worked and made sense. The sport eventually came around to embrace knees.

The format grew, we grew, we grew together. I didn't find anything strange about it then, still don't think anything strange about it now. The more we fought, the more we learned to discard, well, I won't be cofrontational, but we discarded many things to focus upon training....

My opinion, the initial format was strongly influened by false assumptions that still exist in traditional CMA. As the venue evolved, and the fighters got better, the truth evolved even more, and certain nonsense was forced to be conceeded

[SifuAbel]

"the more we learned to discard, well, I won't be cofrontational, but we discarded many things to focus upon training...."

There are alot of nonsense and misunderstood and mistaught techniques in some KF schools.

Which techniques in particular did you discard?

[Shao Lin Long]

Originally posted by lkfmdc
So you posted some more nonsense by the so called "monk"

Is it any surprise he'd say stuff like that? But when he got into trouble, for crap he himself started, he didn't live up to the hype :rolleyes:

He can keep posting about how tough he is, the reality is that he talked crap about us, when confronted with it, he backed down, then threatened to get a restraining order.

But what do you expect from a guy who claims to be a monk, but has an abandoned wife in China, a wife here in the US, drinks, smokes and eats pork? :rolleyes:

Yes, he admits that he drinks and that he eats meat.He says it sbecause of the agreement the tang emperor made with the shaolin monks. He atrributes this to the Cultural Revolution too since he came to the temple in the middle of this and the temple was an open place where every one wa;ked ascross and he said that when he was training they didn't wear monk robes or have shave heads, and that they didn't live in the temple because Mao' Red guards came to the temple frequently so it was dangerous so they sometimes trained there. So you see it seem that in those time of the cultural revoluton the temple was a very big mess even if it was a buddhist place they didn't act like buddhist. Imagine he says that at that time there where only like 16 monks from Shaolin. the marriage thing is another issue, but really we can't blame it all on him we have to look on how he was raise and in what time he was raised. Because although he he seems lie a corrupt monk there is still a lot of people who know him and think he is a great person and that he is very understanding of Chan Buddhism.And maybe even if he really doesn't know how to fight he is still in an extremely good condition since he precticed in th e temple alot of hours since he was 5 years old. People like to always look at the bad aspects of other people and tend to discard their good ones.

[lkfmdc]

yeah, we can't blame Catholic priests for abusing children, I mean, so many are these days, they are just the norm :rolleyes:

(insert sarcasm here)

but even better yet

- "And maybe even if he really doesn't know how to fight ...."

:rolleyes:

[Shao Lin Long]

Its not like that, we can't say that the Catholic Church teaches to abuse of children, those priest are individuals who chose a "wrong path". SYM issue is different, if you are raised in a place where eating pork,drinking,smoking,doing immorals things is common and your peers and teachers also do it than you can expect to grow up this way too.

[Shao Lin Long]

I just read that SYM won the Xian National Saparring Competition
in 1985 and that he won the annual Shaolin Disciple Competition three years in a row from 1988-1990 and he was the vice coach of the Shaolin Temple Fighting Monks.

This would explain his "San Shou Champion" claim.

If you have time please read this, it talks about all those things of SYM being a "fake" monk and all his rebellious and conflicting behavior. http://www.time.com/time/asia/arts/magazine/0%2C9754%2C184056%2C00.html

[Sim Koning]

Sim, I understand where you're coming from, but I'm going to disagree. There is a very big difference between forms and shadow boxing.

Yeah, I admit that was quite an oversimplification on my part. The real difference between forms and “shadow boxing” is not their length, but the fact that the techniques are not performed exactly the way they are used.

For example, in the forms your fists are chambered at your hips and your stance is very low and wide, this is done to reinforce proper posture and leg strength. In fighting of course, you punch from a guard position with your hands guarding your head There are also elements put in forms that are there simply to improve balance and coordination. Many southern styles have isometrics and breathing exercises within the forms. I think it’s very important that once you learn at least one form that a person practices the techniques within it by shadowboxing.

I think the primary benefits from learning forms are increased coordination, good posture, focus, flexibility and endurance, since all the techniques within them can be learned individually and you don’t need to learn them in order to fight. However, in order to take advantage of these benefits, they must be performed correctly.

[Shao Lin Long]

Originally posted by Sim Koning

I think the primary benefits from learning forms are increased coordination, good posture, focus, flexibility and endurance, since all the techniques within them can be learned individually and you don’t need to learn them in order to fight. However, in order to take advantage of these benefits, they must be performed correctly.

then your point on forms is the same as Shi Yan Ming's, right??

[Sim Koning]

Kinda, but forms DO have applications that should be taught.

[ShaolinTiger00]

Kinda, but forms DO have applications that should be taught.

but there are much better, more efficient ways to teach these applications.

keeping them around for the sake of historical value is like using a Civil War Era musket in modern warfare. (Mark T's analogy David?)

Are you a historical re-enactor or a modern soldier?

[Sim Koning]

but there are much better, more efficient ways to teach these applications

I think you mean to say there are better ways to teach the techniques in the forms. As far as teachning the APPLICATIONS of a technique, that hasn't changed much.

I don't believe forms are antiquated in any way. Benny the Jet has even stated that forms are an exellent way to improve coordination. For those that find forms easy to learn and do them well, they are a great thing to practice. For those who have a hard time learning them, or just don't like to do them, or just plain suck at it, there are other ways to train. Doesn't mean one is better than the other, that is purely a matter of opinion.

[ShaolinTiger00]

Were you any good at them?

Considering I studied under Hoy Lee & Mike Barry, (my peers are Sifu Lee's head instructors now) I think it's safe to assume that I was getting taught properly. In fact many of the forms I learned (ex. - man jeet chune, gawk jeet chune,chy jong chune)are very advanced for Jow Ga and only taught to a student under Sifu Lee's discretion.

I was a very good student of Jow Ga. I put alot of hard work and dedication into the years spent there.

[Sim Koning]

man jeet chune, gawk jeet chune,chy jong chune)

Interesting, those forms are not in our system. I'm not suprised though, forms from one jow gar school to the next are quite different sometimes, even if its the same form.


I don't think some people realize just how much their speed and coordnitation improves after doing forms for years. I think back on how I was 5 yrs ago and realize just how much faster and coordinated I am now. If I quit and went to do say, thai boxing, I would still have the benefits I got from form practice even after I quite practicing them and gone to another training method. I think some people do this and forget what doing all those forms really did for them.

[ShaolinTiger00]

Interesting, those forms are not in our system.

Yes they are. either your sifu doesn't know them (shrug) or they are considered too "advanced" for the average student to ever get to.

Think of Teet Geen Kune and go to above and beyond in kung fu skill.

Interesting that you didn't even know about these as they came from Sifu Dean Chin & Hoy Lee..

things you find on the net! -

http://www.angelfire.com/darkside/jowga/forms.htm

[Sim Koning]

The system you learned and the system I am learning appear to be slightly different. Here is the curriculum as taught at the kwoon I go to.


JOW GA RANKING SYSTEM




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

YELLOW SASH LEVEL
Basic Techniques General exercise
Shaolin Eight Stances Breathing exercise
Small Tiger Form (Siu Fook Fu) 1st Level Kicks
End of Yellow Sash Level


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

ORANGE SASH LEVEL
Hand Sparring Form Sub Dok Sau Form
2nd Level Kicks 1st Section Iron Wire Fist
End of Orange Sash Level


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

PURPLE SASH LEVEL
Basic Baton Sau Hung Form
3rd Level Kicks 2nd Section Iron Wire Fist
End of Purple Sash Level


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

GREEN SASH LEVEL
Advanced Baton Bonk Bo Mantis
4th Level Kicks 3rd Section Iron Wire Fist
Double Knives Drill Falling Techniques
End of Green Sash Level


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

BLUE SASH LEVEL
Jow Ga Staff Flying Mantis
5th Level Kicks 4th Section Iron Wire Fist
End of Blue Sash Level


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


BROWN SASH LEVEL
Staff vs. Staff Man Chi Form
6th Level Kicks 5th Section Iron Wire Fist
End of Brown Sash Level


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

BLACK SASH 1st LEVEL
Wind Sword
San Sau Training 6th Section Iron Wire Fist
End of Black Sash 1st Level


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

BLACK SASH 2nd LEVEL
Big Tiger Form (Tai Fook Fu) Eight Diagram Pole
End of Black Sash 2nd Level


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

BLACK SASH 3rd LEVEL
Single Broad Sword vs Staff Left handed Pole
End of Black Sash 3rd Level


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

BLACK SASH 4th LEVEL
Tiger & Leopard Tornado Double Swords
End of Black Sash 4th Level


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

RED SASH 1st LEVEL
Tiger and Crane Form Three sectional staff
End of Red Sash 1st Level


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

RED SASH 2nd LEVEL
Double Tiger Head Hooks Three Sectional Staff vs Staff
End of Red Sash 2nd Level


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

RED SASH 3rd LEVEL
Five Animals & Five Elements Form
Nine Ring Broad Sword Tiger Fork
End of Red Sash 3rd Level


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

RED SASH 4th LEVEL
Plum Flower Spear Form Spear vs. Nine Ring Broad Sword
End of Red Sash 4th Level


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

GOLD SASH LEVEL
Tao of Sword Fighting
Nine Sections Chain Whip Double Edge Straight Sword
End of Jow Ga System

[Sim Koning]

oh, duh, I feel stupid, I'm just looking at different spellings of the same form, sorry. for example, Man Jeet Chune=Man Chi Kuen:o

[SifuAbel]

Originally posted by ShaolinTiger00


Considering I studied under Hoy Lee & Mike Barry, (my peers are Sifu Lee's head instructors now) I think it's safe to assume that I was getting taught properly.

I think ST just violated the first canon of KFM.

"The teacher doesn't make the student great."

So you were very good and and did high level forms that go beyond, as you say.

And yet they have no value?

[blooming lotus]

quick note on the initial question.......

was watching some local saturday night gongfu/san shou tournie broadcast last night ( www.cngongfu.cn) and in this one heavy -mid weight bout, the little guy fighting the bigger and more experienced san shou player almost took it out with throws and takedowns.I kinda figured that's where his strength would be against such a bigger and stronger opponent. In the end the guy had to quit for blood-bin but for a re-match, it's the best strategy I've seen .........if you can get the show or some highlights from the site, there's some awesome performance wushu to check out aswell

[ShaolinTiger00]

teet jeet kune = iron arrow fist

man jeet kune = 10,000 fist

if that helps.


So you were very good and and did high level forms that go beyond, as you say.

I'm assuming that I wouldn't have been allowed to progress to the more difficult forms if I didn't have a firm understanding of the student forms.


And yet they have no value?

in actual fighting? very little in my opinion. Are they a tool to build agility, balance,speed and anaerobic conditioning? yes. Are there ways to build these same attributes in better methods more appropriate for fighting? Absolutely. Why am I asking questions and then answering them? I have no idea.

[WanderingMonk]

Originally posted by lkfmdc

My opinion, the initial format was strongly influened by false assumptions that still exist in traditional CMA.

Coach Ross,

Will you elaborate on what you have found to be false assumptions in CMA?

[SifuAbel]

Originally posted by ShaolinTiger00

I'm assuming that I wouldn't have been allowed to progress to the more difficult forms if I didn't have a firm understanding of the student forms.



Students are "passed along" everyday. The question wasn't if you got to them, it was if you were any good at them. Did you understand them? Did you win any tournies with them? Were you a top example of performance in your school? To dismiss them in your opinion is fine, its your opinion. To advise others to dismiss them, you would first have to be an adequate exponent of them to do so honestly. And, only within your style/school.

If you didn't find any meaning in them, then it is best you stopped doing them.

In contrast and comparison, Ross doesn't teach form work, yet Ventura does. Ross still will draw extensivly from his knowledge base, I.E. forms. So even if he doesn't teach it he still uses it.

I was discussing this briefly with my teacher last weekend. He noted how sad it was that people today will EITHER do fighting or forms performance in tournament. When "back in the day", not too long ago, you did form rounds as a demonstation of your skill before the fighting rounds. It was a complete experience, not exclusive. The same guys doing the forms in the morning were the guys fighting in the afternoon.

Forms are a component of training. Not the only one but an important one. I can only speak about myself, my school, and my style, when I talk about how how form work has taught and trained me along with all the other parts of training. My opinion cannot apply to anyone else since every individual's experience will be different from school to school and student to student.

There are no gaurantees, even the guys that have gone off to train in china now may not come back any better off. They might suck just as bad as when they came in. And belive me, I've seen every permutation of this scenario. A 3" sword is still a 3" sword , no matter how sharp it is.

[norther practitioner]

( www.cngongfu.cn)

Thanks for the link BL

[blooming lotus]

I'm glad you could find something of use.....so I gather you could understand it then???.I only logged on once, but didn't have enough time to interpret or to apply language converter programme............

these guys are impressive..just some av high standard tournie players, but the performance wushu is a whole other story..........some of it is fairly easily acheived by av joe player, but then they pull off a crazy set or some radical form and it blows me off my seat..........

cheers

for cable viewers :- show airs Sat 8:30pm ish beijing time cctv ?4

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by WanderingMonk
Coach Ross,

Will you elaborate on what you have found to be false assumptions in CMA?

If he's referring to the format of the training, read this:

http://martial.best.vwh.net/forum/showthread.php?threadid=27016&highlight=long+fist+protocol

check out the part about long/short fist protocol.

[SevenStar]

That was the wrong thread, although there is some info there. Check out this thread anhttp://martial.best.vwh.net/forum/showthread.php?postid=422061&highlight=short+strike+protocol#post422061d search for the same topic:

[SifuAbel]

All that the above link read is that there are more than one type of CMA. There is no concrete reasoning for or against it in that thread. And the concept that LFP doesn't teach principles is incorrect.