A Few Good Monks

[Sim Koning]

I was just reading about Shi Deyang, one of the monks who practices strictly traditional forms. It is reassuring to know that there are still Shaolin monks who practice the real thing.

This leads me to wonder, what about Shi Yanming and Shi Goulin, do they practice traditional forms? Or are they primarily contemporary wu shu stylists?

[Brad]

Shi Yang Ming defenitely practices both(but I don't think he teaches applications)... I think he's more of a San Shou guy though, and I'd hesitate to call him a real monk.
Shi Guolin defenitely teaches both forms too as you can see from the videos offered on this site :) I don't know anything about how he teaches though.

Most older generation athletes and a lot of non-pro wushu athletes practice both trad. and modern, and I think a lot of the monks were modern wushu athletes before landing at Shaolin. I think Shi Xing Hao(Texas) was a pretty good pro athlete and a good Shaolin practitioner before going to Shaolin.

[Brad]

BTW, what martial art you practice has little to do with whether or not someone is a good monk or even a monk at all ;)

[IronFist]

Can the monks fight?

[dodger87]

Originally posted by Brad
BTW, what martial art you practice has little to do with whether or not someone is a good monk or even a monk at all ;)

I think he was making a joke out of the movie "A few good men."

[Premier79]

I've had the pleasure to train with both YanMing and GuoLin. As Brad stated YanMing practices both traditional and contemporary forms. YanMing doesn't believe in applications, but he teaches it. Just he doesn't dedicate a class to it. As for Guolin, he definitely knows traditional forms but as for the modern forms, I dunno. I've never seen him do any of that stuff.

[Brad]

I'm pretty sure I've seen his(Guolin) student performing modern wushu monkey boxing on the Shaolin Ulyses special. Most of the animal forms the monks teach seem to be modern wushu(mantis, eagle, monkey, etc.)

[bung bo]

what do you mean by "he doesn't believe in applications"? how does he train the techs. to be applied?

[Starchaser107]

yeah, pleeze x-plain this "disbelief in apps." thing

[Premier79]

Guolin's student do know modern forms but, it doesn't mean that Guolin taught it to them. Guolin brought over a few disciples from China, of the Heng generation, that are teaching at his school. But again, I dunno the extent of Guolin’s knowledge in modern wushu. As for YanMing, if i remember correctly don't quote me on this, he wants you to be nonrestrictive. In other words, if someone punches you or whatever, he doesn’t want you to think, he punched me with his left hand then I should do this or that, he’d rather want you to just punch or kick you and just end it as soon as possible. I hope that I was able to explain this well enough, maybe some of YanMing’s current students can elaborate more on this.

[Starchaser107]

ok'
i see

[TenTigers]

I've had students from there join my school, and also a school of a friend's. Bottom line-they don't teach it, they don'y know it, they don't do it. But tHey know forms. oh yeah, and they're real monks. I dunno...David Carradine is startin to look real good, ta me lately....

[Shaolinlueb]

i was tlaking to this about my sifu today actually. i asked him about the animal forms from shaolin. he said they are mainly wushu-ish. (jsut a brief discussion didnt get into it really.) he said when shaolin was on the ressurection in the 80's they brought in a bunch of wushu teachers in to teach martial arts, Master Hu being one of them. didnt tlak too much about it. Gene will probably be able to answer this thread a lot more when he sees this on monday. also check out the shaolin monk 2004, Shi Decheng has a good article oin there about real vs fake monk.

[lkfmdc]

Shi Yan Ming a "san shou guy" :rolleyes:

yeah, when he first started out he said he was a san shou champion, said he was the only "REAL" san shou school in NY and talked crap about everyone in the city....

it got around and some rude American sent him a note in of all things CHINESE telling him that if he wasn't willing to step up and actually, gasp, FIGHT, he had better shut the F up.....

(you figure out the above post and who the rude American was) ;)

[GeneChing]

The mix of modern and traditional at Songshan Shaolin is a really confusing issue, especially with animal forms. Right now, I believe the only traditional animal style still extant at Shaolin is Black Tiger. Now that's a huge statement, so I'm tempering it by saying this is only a personal belief and I cannot yet back it up with facts.

But I can illustrate some examples. My own Shaolin monk teacher, Shi Decheng (see the
cover story article (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=500) mentioned above, teaches a Songshan five animal form, but I don't think that it is traditional. I beleive that it is a modern re-creation, something that was developed to fit an need, so to speak. It is composed like a traditional Songshan form, but I'm still suspicious. Juxtapose that with his mantis form - now most Shaolin masters teach Yu Hai's mantis form - this is clearly modern. Yu Hai played the big monk in Jet Li's Shaolin Temple (http://www.martialartsmart.net/dvd40021.html) series, and I think it was Shaolin little kids where they did the mantis form. It stayed in Dengfeng after Yu Hai left and is still wildly popular. In fact, the movies had a big impact on the area, bringing a lot of Beijing and Shandong masters like Yu Hai and Hu Jiangqiang out to Shaolin for a spell. But Decheng also knows a very traditional mantis form, and 8 step (babu tanglang), which I think is from his Kaifeng lineage, something he learned outside of his Shaolin training. If you were to learn mantis from him, you'd probably get this traditional mantis form, while the others would give you the modern Yu Hai form. I should note that while Yu Hai is often considered to be a big wushu master, he is firmly rooted in traditional styles. Just look at his age - wushu wasn't invented when he began training.

Another example is Shi Yanming's duck form. He knows several traidtional duck forms, which were qutie rare at Shaolin until quite recently. As I mentioned in my Shaolin Trips Episode 2 piece (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/ezine/article.php?article=468), duck style has become popular as a demonstration form recently, mostly for comic relief. That duck is generally a modern duck, very showy for the show. You also see frog, which typical seems derivative of what appears in Jet Li's Shaolin Temple. So I'd judge both of these as modern, yet Yanming personally has a traditional duck. He left Shaolin before duck even became popular.

What my confounds this theory is the sheer amount of animal imitative boxing. In Goulin's demo tapes (here's vol 1 (http://www.martialartsmart.net/pr-gs101.html)) you see a lot of wushu like animals, stuff like scorpion, which is a really unique and crazy form. Most of the animals are really flamboyant, not in line with traditional Shaolin. Now I should mention that I've never seen Guolin do non-traditional, but that doesn't mean that he never did any. He has other monks and Shaolin masters teach modern stuff at his temple. In fact, three of his monks are introduced in the Shaolin Special 2004. That's why you see wushu coming out from some of his students.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by bung bo
what do you mean by "he doesn't believe in applications"? how does he train the techs. to be applied? YanMing does not believe forms teach fighting. He says they are for health and conditioning.

[lkfmdc]

that would be economic health (his) and conditioning vs. the suffering of being forced to learn stuff like "Shaolin Temple Chen Taiji" :rolleyes:

[Sim Koning]

I'm beginning to wonder if styles like Choy Li Fut, Hung Gar, Bak Siu Lum etc... are closer to original Shao Lin than what is currently practiced at the temple itself.


YanMing does not believe forms teach fighting. He says they are for health and conditioning.

Forms don't teach you how to fight, he's right in that respect. They SHOULD have techniques that can be used in a fight though. I don't know about the forms he teaches, but the forms I'm learning have techniques that I use in San Shou all the time, but that's mainly because most of the techniques are hooks, uppercuts etc...

[GeneChing]

Imagine if you were in a community with 80 schools, the largest of which is 13,000 students, all within an hour walk of each other, many right next door to each other. It's so big that the schools have to coordinate their days off so the rival schools don't cross paths and street fight. With that many schools and that many students, all in constant competition, do you think a school can survive without fighting skills? Sure there's a lot of wushu, but don't be fooled into believing that's all there is. There's a massive traditional core at Shaolin, but many foreigners never penetrate it.

[lkfmdc]

Imagine if you were in a community with 80 housing projects, the largest of which is 13,000 occupants, all within a 15 minute walk of each other, many right next door to each other. Do you think an average person can survive without fighting skills?

Sorry Gene, nothing personal, but just because they brawl in the street doesn't mean they have high level Kung Fu. I've heard all the same stories, but by far and by large, I don't see much major skill, when they parade out the shaolin san shou fighters, I find their skill level much lower than the national team, etc

[Sim Koning]

I can see what you are saying Gene, I'm sure there are traditional forms taught at the temple. What I'm wondering is if the traditional curriculum that is taught there is really the original Shaolin system, or is it a mix of other traditional systems brought there from outside the temple only recently. I read that Northern Shaolin was the the original curriculum taught at the temple, but that it is no longer taught there. I know that the five animals was supposedly part of the original curriculum, do they still practice that there at least, and I don't mean the modern wu shu animal forms.

[Brad]

What I've been told:

Basically, when the temple was renovated after Jet Li's Shaolin Temple movie, a new Shaolin base of knowledge was developed by combining what some of the local villiage masters knew and combining that with modern and traditional forms brought in from outside. Some forms are straight up traditional, others are completely modern, and some are "retro fitted" modern forms(contemporary forms altered to apear more traditional). A lot had also been lost over the years between the place getting burned down in the early 20th century and the damage of the cultural revolution, and I've been told some lineages and texts were forged. I've got no idea what specifically was changed.

[Ray Pina]

It was after meeting a student of the NYC Shaolin temple that my hate for Wushu emerged. I was at a BBQ and quietly watched this clown showoff forms for 45 minutes. When it was over, I intercepted him alone going to the beach and asked if he can show me how to use some of that stuff and held my arm out in the traditional "don't worry, I won't do anything let's make believe this is a punch" fashion, and nothing. Admitted they only do form.

I never saw this before because my karate background had form, but we sparred on a regular basis. As I got deeper into Kung Fu I realised this guy was the rule, not the exception.

Anyway, anyone here competing in the Wong Fei Hung in Sept?

[Starchaser107]

evo,
i've heard u tell that story before,
it must have reeeeaaaalllly irked you.

[Shaolinlueb]

Originally posted by EvolutionFist
Anyway, anyone here competing in the Wong Fei Hung in Sept?

I'll probably end up there.

[GeneChing]

Well, the big difference between your analogy and my observation is that the housing projects are based on poverty and the schools of shaolin are based on martial arts. Although that does bring up a big factor with shaolin and sanda specifically. The students don't eat well usually. Low protein intake. So they don't get that big. That presents a handicap, especially when the big gun foreigners come in.

Now if your comparing shaolin's sanda to the national team, of course shaolin will be lower. When shaolin fighters get to the national team level, they leave shaolin and join the national team. Shaolin has fielded some national champs over the years. Once they reach that level, they move on.

This bring up another aspect of shaolin sanda. Sanda is relatively new to shaolin. It only been practiced there for the last decade or so, and it is definately not the speciality of shaolin. Just like wushu and tae kwon do, it's a new game there. The strength of shaolin is its traditional. And traditional shaolin hand techniques are mostly chin na, which doesn't play in sanda so much (in fact, that was why there was a movement away from the term sanshou in PRC - since there is no 'na', just 'da').

Personally, I think shaolin sanda has two weaknesses. One is that they tend to not be big punchers and a good boxer who can suck up some hard hits and get inside can do well against them. The other, and this is related, is that they are incestuous about who they practice with, meaning that at shaolin, for the most part, they only spar against other shaolin practitioners. Thei makes their fights very clean - the internal sanda tournament are ajoy to watch because they're so clean - but it also means they can be jammed by outsiders. Both factors are changing as they are learning from visitors.

Don't let a few pompous american students taint your image of shaolin. Sure there's some bad apples in the basket, that comes with every martial art. The bottom line is that Shaolin is so huge that there's an incredible range of what it produces, not just monks, but students, and to dismiss it all is a serious oversight.

[lkfmdc]

Originally posted by GeneChing


Sanda is relatively new to shaolin. It only been practiced there for the last decade or so, and it is definately not the speciality of shaolin.



Which begs the question of why some of the so called "monks" here in the US claim to be San Shou champions from the 1970's and claim that they are so "special" doing so called "Shaolin San Shou" :rolleyes:


Originally posted by GeneChing


Don't let a few pompous american students taint your image of shaolin.



oh, you got me wrong Gene, it's the pompus CHinese masters that taint my image of shaolin :rolleyes:

[GeneChing]

My guess is that the monks in question have their citizenship. That makes them Americans. ;)

[lkfmdc]

Ever since they kicked Haidang Faht Si out of Shaolin, or rather, his students (he died if I remember correctly :mad: ) I"ve had nothing but experiences which lead me to believe Shaolin is a myth and a fraud...

My teacher is no monk, but as an orphan he was raised in a monastery. He asked one of the so called monks to chant for him, my teacher literally knows hundreds of chants from being raised in the monastery, and the so called monk had no clue

I was doing contemporary wushu in the 1980's, hanging out with guys who trained in both Beijing and Nanjing. I just love when I see sequences we used to do in contemporary wushu being passed off as tradtional sets (insert sarcasm here).

One of the so called "monks" teaches the IWUF standardized long fist set and calls it "hong quan" :rolleyes:

My teacher was also famous for his hard Qi Gong and so I've yet to be impressed by any of the carnival students 99% of them do, the only exception is Shi Guolin, who let a student of mine literally beat on him until my student got tired :eek:

Of course, Guolin says he learned that outside of Shaolin and that his martial arts actually DIMINISHED while at Shaolin

Of course, my latest pet peeve is them all jumping on the San Shou/San Da bandwagon when most are completely clueless. As I said here about 4 million times, one of teh monks talked a lot of shiiittteeee about us until I sent him a formal challenge letter. Funny, but he shut up real quick :o

DId I mention that for a big "san shou champion" none of his students ever spar? That's becuase they aren't "fourth level monks" yet :rolleyes:

Yeah, you guessed it, you have to pay a large sum to become a "fourth level monk"....

Did I mention the blond girlfriends with big boobies? (not that I'm opposed to big boobies mind you!), the pork, the beer and the gambling?

[MasterKiller]

Did I mention the blond girlfriends with big boobies? (not that I'm opposed to big boobies mind you!), the pork, the beer and the gambling?
C'mon, LKFMDC. We all know those are special boobies, just like beer is special water. ;)

[lkfmdc]

Well, I'll tell you a secret as long as you promise not to tell anyone else ;)

Seeing as I've been known to be involved with an Asian lady or two (or three) over they years, I guess I can't blame a guy fresh of the plane from China for exploring the world of blonds :D

[Meat Shake]

Everytime the mom asks why "you always have a new girl comming in and out?"
I simply say "Variety is the spice of life."
:D

[GeneChing]

I though I knew of whom you were talking about but now I'm not so sure.

Anyway, it's interesting that you cite both Guolin and Haideng. Both are from Shaolin of course, but both also trained elsewhere. Actually, my master, Shi Decheng trained elsewhere too. A lot of Shaolin monks trained elsewhere, but they are still part of the Shaolin fold. Again, that raises the question of the magnitude of Shaolin. Just because they trained elsewhere, does it mean that they are not Shaolin? You said you trained in wushu - does that make you not sanshou? Of course not. It's all part of the warrior journey - we all explore different roads. What is interesting is that people like Guolin and Haideng retain the Shaolin name, even amongst a lot of less reputable masters.

Now don't get me wrong. Given Shaolin's magnitude, that definately widens the magnitude for charlatans. But don't lose sight of the yang in the yin, and vice versa.

[lkfmdc]

we've found Gene's weakness, he gets thrown off by blond boobies :D

I have some more thoughts, but it's almost 2 pm and that's my time to do my stuff..... I shall return

In the meantime, anyone else remember one of the Shaolin monks smacking the crap out of Shawn Liu at one of the events? :D

[lkfmdc]

As we both know, politics and history is that Shaolin was empty for periods of modern time, there is no "unbroken" line going back in Shaolin. NO one can say that every teacher in their lineage was a monk doing shaolin AT shaolin, living there unbroken from the Ming Dynasty and before.

Hai Dang was chosen because he was two things

1. a legit Buddhist monk
2. a legit Luohan practicioner, from a lineage that can be verified back to Shaolin, ie, while Haideng learned outside Shaolin, his own teacher probably did as well, if you go back in the tree you'll find a pre-burning Shaolin monk.

Luohan Men is one of a very select few lineages that can be verified to Shaolin without doubt...

Guolin is a "shaolin monk" because he went to Shaolin to become a Buddist monk there. HIs martial arts I"d probably argue are NOT shaolin. Unless you subscribe to the Chinese view that ALL martial arts come at some point from Shaolin, which I think we can both concede aint true :D

[GeneChing]

Come on now, be honest. ;)

I do remember Shawn getting in a scuffle with a Shaolin monk at Taiji Legacy several years ago. There were three monks there. Do you remember who it was?

There were a few that stayed at Shaolin as long as they could. Xingzhen, Suxi and Suyan were at Shaolin for most of the last century. They may have left for short periods - Suxi says he never left beyond travels to other monasteries. Suyan and xingzhen did say that they left for a short period during the CR, but then returned. Only Suxi is still alive and he has many disciples, Shawn being one of them.

Guolin was originally from Henan, born to a Buddhist family. He actually took his monk vows at another temple, Yunmushan, in Jiangsu. He transfered to Shaolin and was actually expelled for oversleeping once. Now he's a dharma heir of Abbot Yongxin, next in line for the abbacy. While he has some family kung fu that he practices, his main emphasis is on yijinjing (http://www.martialartsmart.net/pr-gs001.html) which he considers the core of his practice.

Haideng was an honorary abbot of Shaolin. This was part of the first wave of reconstruction. He was actually the first Shaolin representative to come to the states - he came out here to the City of 10,000 Buddhas in Ukiah, CA.

So you can argue that both of these monks are NOT Shaolin, but that's a bit absurd given that they both call themselves Shaolin and have both held the highest honors of Shaolin.


http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=122

[lkfmdc]

well Gene, one of the obvious questions would be, what do these "honors" mean when they can be simply BOUGHT?

I respect guys like Guolin because at least he is honest about who he is, what he is, how he ended up in Shaolin, etc....

Guys who showed up at Shaolin in the last 10 years, bought a lineage, then talk about how they were raised there, well, they're j e rks IMHO....

And you have to wonder how a self respecting monk accepts "disciples" such as them?

[lkfmdc]

oh, but I love the over sleeping story, that is why I am not a monk of Shaolin, I'd over sleep every morning :D

[GeneChing]

That's a bit of a strange one really. Many of the monks are open to layman disciples, that's true, and there is a traditional bai see, a dowry if you will, in any Chinese disiple ceremony. But this happens in any style. Often it's interpreted to mean more than it does, or pawned off to mean more, and I suppose it's the latter that is more offensive. Do some monks sell discipleships? Well, I have encountered people that have posed as monks selling discipleships. There was even a private 'entrepenuer' who was selling Shaolin master degrees at his school, but he was eventually shut down. So again, there's clearly problems with charlatanism, but that exists in every style, although I'd admit, it's probably the least in Sanshou, since that's really all about your fight record. I suppose a lot of it has to do with the religious element of Shaolin monks, so it seems a greater offense than a regular charlatan master. Did you read my cover story (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=501) on fake monks?

[Sim Koning]

In the meantime, anyone else remember one of the Shaolin monks smacking the crap out of Shawn Liu at one of the events?


I do remember Shawn getting in a scuffle with a Shaolin monk at Taiji Legacy several years ago. There were three monks there. Do you remember who it was?

Don't leave me hanging, tell the story ****it LOL. All I ever hear is how great a fighter he is, I never heard a story about him getting smacked around, by a Shaolin monk lol.

oh and I have question, do any of the southern shaolin styles resemble the traditional shaolin forms now practiced at the temple, or have they diverged to the point of looking completely unrelated

[Brad]

The way I remember the Shawn Liu vs. Monk story, was that at Taiji Legacy SL got in an arguement with one of the monks(possibly over Shawn Liu's calling himself a monk when he's not) and at some point SL started kicking the monk, to no effect. Probably not an entirely acurate telling though, because I read it off a message board(http://www.beijingwushuteam.com) and it was a few years ago :p People thought it was kind of funny, but I don't remember anyone making a big deal out of it.


Southern Shaolin would have come from a different temple entirely(asuming a Southern Shaolin Temple existed at all).

[lkfmdc]

Originally posted by Brad
... at Taiji Legacy SL got in an arguement with one of the monks(possibly over Shawn Liu's calling himself a monk when he's not)



BINGO, they got into an argument over the "monk" thing, but Shawn didn't kick anyone. He simply sputed off with his big mouth and the monk responded by slapping the heck out of Shawn. Funny thing, monk felt so bad he got on a plane immediately and went home to make amends for falling to his emotions :D

I was present at yet another time when somone got into an argument with Mr Liu, he once again opened his big mouth, and the person he was arguing with charged him. In that case, Shawn got lucky, a bunch of guys grabbed him before he reached Shawn and the coach, a mainland San Shou guy, was removed from the building

These however were not as funny as Shawn busting his own nose trying to demonstrate a basic technique.... :rolleyes:

[Sim Koning]

These however were not as funny as Shawn busting his own nose trying to demonstrate a basic technique....

LMAO!!!

Oh my God, I'm having hard time typing lol How in the fuk did he manage that?!

[lkfmdc]

I really shouldn't but I have so many funny Shawn Liu stories at times they just lead out :p

[Sim Koning]

C'mon tell me more of them. I've only heard cool stories about him from Duncan, nothing like these. I'm going to tell Duncan about some of this the next time I see him LOL.

[GeneChing]

...But I was with the other Shaolin monks immediately after. And lkfmdc is right, the offending monk left right after, so I didn't get a chance to talk to him about it. The other monks were rather non-plussed about it all. That sort of thing happens around Shaolin from time to time. Push comes to shove.

Now personally, I like Shawn. He is a disciple of Suxi, one of many, and we once had a wonderful dinner with Suxi in the temple after hours. I thought is was poor form of him to publish that article about being beat up by the Tagou school. That was such an odd story and it's certainly something that I wouldn't have published myself, if it happened to me. Actually, I take that back, maybe I would publish it, but then again, I'm not a master and have never made any claim as such. I'm only peripherally involved with sanshou as you know, so I'd be interested to hear your stories, lkfmdc. Shawn has always been good to me, so I won't fault him here.

[lkfmdc]

I probably shouldn't, but then again, I say "I probably shouldn't" every time I log on to the internet. Shawn Liu and I have butted heads for more than 10 years now, so be warned I am no fan of his. However, I stick to the facts, which always makes for the best arguments.

I first met Shawn, appropriately, in the bathroom. I was one of the coordinators of the first USA WKF event in NYC and Tai Yim introduced Shawn to me during a break. As was my habit back then, I talked to Sifu Yim in Cantonese, which sort of freaked out Shawn. But it got worse :D Tai Yim turned and started translating our conversation to Shawn in Mandarin. Once I heard Mandarin, I just switched dialects to Mandarin. Shawn had that Scoopy Doo look on his face and Tai Yim just laughed and said "oh, yeah, I forgot, you speak some Mandarin also"

At that time, Shawn Liu was introduced to me as a wushu coach. A coach who hadn't done well in China (ie failed to secure a steady position) and was trying to get something started in America. Tai Yim, typical nice guy he is, had brought him to the event to introduce him to the major players and school owners. Anthony Goh had done him one better, he'd gotten him a paying gig as Xia Bahua's translator. Xia Bahua, then president of the CWA, was in the US and doing seminars/speaking engagements promoting San Shou. Since he spoke no English, Shawn was suppposed to translate.

Give me a minute to type more

[lkfmdc]

OK, I'm back, anyhoo, did I mention that at this time there was NO MENTION, absolutely NONE, as in ZERO mention of Shaolin, being a monk, being raised there, or of any of the other more "colorful" claims that have circulated :rolleyes:

I've said it before, and I guess I'll say it again, it was almost two years after I met Shawn that he "remembered" he'd been raised in Shaolin....:eek:

Back to Xia Bahua and the first time Shawn and I butted heads. Shawn told everyone, incorrectly I later found out, that Professor Xia would be conducting a seminar to certify San Shou officials, so we all coughed up $50 and the Shuai Chiao (Chinese wrestling) folks were kind enough to offer their school as the location.

I need to make something perfectly clear, Xia Bahua is the MAN. As I sat there, listening to HIS WORDS, I fell in love with teh guy. He's a great character, has great skills, reminds me a lot of Chan Tai San, just a different dialect :D His direct students, like Michale Li, I've also gorwn to love and appreciate and respect.

The problem was, for 99% of the people sitting in the room, they were not hearing Professor Xia, they were hearing Shawn Liu and his agenda. Professor Xia had shown up to talk about the history of San Shou, tell old stories, share his personal thoughts and show technique. All excellent stuff. But basicly, he'd speak for a few minutes, and then Shawn would "translate" with stuff that had nothing to do with what Professor Xia had said!

First of all, Shawn Liu told everyone that no one in the US knew any Shuai Fa (throwing) or Ba (gripping). I did mention that this seminar was being held in the Shuai Chiao school? I literally put my hand on the shoulder of our host to calm him down, then quickly wispered in his ear "Professor Xia never said that, this clown (Shawn) is saying his own stuff"

Next, Shawn wanted to show us some techniques so he stood up. Since Professor Xia was talking, and thought that Shawn was just tranlating, he didn't understand why Shawn stood up. Anyway, Shawn tried to do a spin back fist, hit himself in the face, broke his glasses and bloodied his own nose. By now, all the Wai Guo Ren sitting in the audience were dying laughing, but Professor Xia had to cover his mouth and try and remain dignified.

MORE......

[lkfmdc]

As professor Xia spoke, regardless of Shawn's "tranlations", it did become pretty obvious that we were not being certified to be officials as a result of this event. I found out later, from Professor Xia, that it had never been the intent. It was something Shawn tossed into the pot. Why you ask? Well, as the audience started to get upset, and asked what about the ceritifcation? Shawn replied that if they came to his new school and paid him another $100 he'd do the second part of the certification. At this point, most in the room already wanted to kill Shawn.

I had already told most in the audience what I had immediately known, that Professor Xia was a cool dude, but that Shawn had not translated at all correctly. The only person who wasn't in on the "joke" yet was Professor Xia.

The second part of the "talk" Professor Xia stood up and wanted to show techniques, so we were all just standing around and able to walk up to him. Since I don't think any of the other Wai Guo Ren in the room spoke Mandarin, Shawn had no issues with them walking up to Professor Xia, shaking his hand and smiling. When I walked up to him, Shawn stepped between us and "offered to translate" .... I nearly died laughing, literally pushed Shawn out of the way and started talking to Professor Xia.

He heard Mandarin, his eyes lit up and he grabbed me beneath the elbow and took two steps away from Shawn. Even before I had a chance to spill the beans, he asked me if Shawn was at all translating what he said, I of course told him the truth, NO

Professor Xia, through official CWA channels, gave Anthony Goh a lot of grief, Anthony in return gave Shawn a lot of grief, but then, stupidly, Anthony also gave Shawn my HOME NUMBER

Now, you have to ask yourself, knowing what you've done and that you've been caught, and already in trouble, do you call someone you don't really know at their HOUSE and try and ***** them out?

Better yet, do you call them at 2 am? No, sadly, I am not joking. Shawn called my house at 2 am. For that alone I should have killed him. Perhaps if I had I would have spared the world all the grief and aggravation of the crap he's put it through over the years. But I was young and silly then, and thought if I gave him some friendly advice he MIGHT listen, of course he didn't

More than ten years ago, I told him what I've repeatedly told him over these years, which he has repeatedly ignored...

I told him that Americans aren't idiots, that if he tries to con us, some of us are gonna know better. Some of us will call him on it. But Shawn never listens, and that's why I have another ten years worth of stories on him.....

[Sim Koning]

Interesting.

Is there any truth to to this do you know?- (from his website)

"As a Martial Artist and Fighter, Master Liu has fought and won numerous professional fights in both Chinese traditional bare-handed fighting and modern Sanshou. He is one of the few undefeated professionals out of China and has coached martial arts teams in both China and the U.S. - producing many outstanding martial artists and Sanshou fighting National and International Champions."

[lkfmdc]

Let's deal with the easy one first





producing many outstanding martial artists and Sanshou fighting National and International Champions."

How big is Shawn Liu's competition team? How many members does it have? What titles do they hold?

If you walk into Shawn's place, how many competition level fighters are in his classes?

Shawn likes to claim Cung Le as his "student", but Cung has extensive background in many martial arts. Shawn really only facilitated Cung getting a chance to train with the Chinese national team.

Is Duncan a product of Shawn's program? How much time has Duncan spent in Chan's Kung Fu as opposed to with Shawn? Or even in Panther's Kickboxing as opposed to with Shawn?

Pat Barry is a Muay Thai stylist from Anacosta's gym in New Orleans.

As anyone who has been on a national team knows, the individual team coaches usually coach their own students, Shawn is a figure head as a "team coach"

I can deal with the rest in due time, but let some of that sink in

[lkfmdc]

oh, so you have something to compare to.....

compare Shawn's page to http://www.nykkgym.com/nyk/team.html

Boston and Cung Le have similar pages....

[GeneChing]

Wow, I've never heard these tales. That's some great stuff. Let it all out, brother, let it all out! :cool:

[lkfmdc]

Gene

1. thanks for the Shaolin info, I passed it on

2. if you want me to tell stories, we could be here for MONTHS :D

[GeneChing]

...but fair enough. Maybe we should save some stories for the day our paths cross face-to-face and we can throw back a few beers together. :cool:

[Shao Lin Long]

Originally posted by GeneChing
There's a massive traditional core at Shaolin, but many foreigners never penetrate it.

Well Gene, can you tell me who to reach this 'traditional core" in Shaolin????

[Sim Koning]

Is Duncan a product of Shawn's program? How much time has Duncan spent in Chan's Kung Fu as opposed to with Shawn? Or even in Panther's Kickboxing as opposed to with Shawn

yeah I see what you mean. Duncan has told me himself that his skills in San Shou are from over ten years of training in Jow Gar Kuen, Wing Chun and Judo. Chan Sifu is his Sifu and always will be. But he has also said that Shawn has been really good to him, so I'm not going to dis him. Duncan has learned alot from Shawn, Cung, and many champion fighters too.

[GeneChing]

That's easy. Go to the older monks and ask. But be specific. If you ask a stupid question, you'll get a stupid answer. It's a zen thing. ;) You can't just say "I want traditional Shaolin kung fu." They'll come back with "which one?" Know the traditional forms, training, etc. and ask specifically for that.