Does the title "master" or "grandmaster" mean anything?

[vt guy]

What do you think the title of "master" or "grandmaster" mean? So many leaders of associations and organizations say that they are the master or grandmaster. How many of them are there? When Yip Man was alive did he appoint all these titles to everyone, I doubt it. Students refer to their instructor as "Sifu" not Grandmaster or master sifu, so why bother with all the master and grandmaster stuff.

There are people in the world that want to learn and people that are able to teach, even the people who teach should still be able to learning something from someone else. Life is a ever learning process.

[sihing]

IMO these words (master and grandmaster) are over used, but I will say once you meet one you will know they are one indeed. If one has created something unique or their own association per say, then yeah I guess they would be grandmaster (or Sigung). If you don't like that then fine, don't enrol in their school, but first check them out for yourself and ask allot of questions, and also look at the senior students of this master/grandmaster and that will tell you allot.

You brought up a good point. Did Yip Man designate someone as his successor? From what I under stand the answer is no. At least not to the public he didn't. But IMO, allot of the controversy and problems in the WC world would not be here today if Yip did just that, name a successor. What I don't understand is why did he not do just that, his schools and association were very popular before he died (mostly do to students teaching and Bruce Lee's success), so to neglect this was a terrible mistake. If he only knew what the future had to hold for Wing Chun then I'm sure he would have named someone to take over.

I believe the terms Master or Grandmaster should be used in our western world, that is if it deserving. Most people do not know the Chinese translations of terms like Sifu (Master/Father/Teacher) or Sigung (Grandmaster/Grandfather/Grand teacher), especially how these terms are interpreted in Chinese Martial arts, so I think it’s justified to use here, to the General public.





Sihing

[Da_Moose]

I agree with what Sihing said.

When the Asian martial arts were first introduced to Western culture, some things were undoubtedly modified to fit the Western mind. Many Westerners are lazy about languages and it finer nuances, so instead of keeping the authentic, native titles, they were changed to be understandable by the general Western Public. No one knew, or knows, what Sifu or Sigung means, so instead of a Chinese language lesson which most people proabbaly don't want, titles such as Master and Grandmaster were and are used. It is unfortunate that sometimes translation sacrifices some of the finer intricacies of a word or phrase. In poetry there is a saying: 'Once a poem is translated into a nother language, it is no longer the same poem.' The same is true for words as well.

As Sihing said, once you find a Master, you will know it.

[vt guy]

I do think that both of you are right in the fact that once you find a master you will know it.
But what if a person creates something unique then can anyone give themselves these titles? Can a person learn a few versions of WC and combine all of them, and then call himself the master/grandmaster. What about a person who calls himself a master and then is defeated by some other person who calls himself master in the same art, who would be the true master there. Since all these masters believe that they are the "one" then why don't all of them gather together and beimo (test of skill). I'm sure that there would be someone who could come out on top. Otherwise more and more people are going to call themselves masters/grandmaster as time passes.

[canglong]

originally posted by vt guy
What do you think the title of "master" or "grandmaster" mean? Naturally the term will mean different things to different people yet the relevancy of "you" in your questioon can not be overstated when "you" undertake the question others may rightly ask who are "you" to determine the answer. There are those in the world of martial arts as in most varying arenas of life that can and as such are very deserving of the praise or title bestowed upon them and also there are those that can not and as such may not be as worthy of that praise or tilte as much as others yet as has been stated several times before pertaining to this topic...Therefore when standing in the presence of a Grandmaster and "you" don't quite feel right that is all "you" need to know conversely when standing in the presence of a Grandmaster and "you" feel the aura of a Grandmaster that too is all "you" need to know to understand the answer to your question and thus will end the need for any more questions of this nature. No one else can have your experience for "you" or answer this question for "you".

[AmanuJRY]

Funny how when someone is trying to sell you something they (ab)use terminology or titles that normally mean something important, but are without merit.

To me, a true master (of anything) has not only mastered an art but has mastered himself within that art. In the realm of martial arts this usually manifests itself in self confidence and humility. Someone who is truly a master would most likly never claim it of himself.......unless of course he was marketing himself for some reason.


Originally posted by Da_Moose
In poetry there is a saying: 'Once a poem is translated into a nother language, it is no longer the same poem.' The same is true for words as well.

I like this statement, it is a good comment for this thread as well....
Meaning of Wing Chun (http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=30777)

[PaulH]

Masters and Grand Masters are mostly meaningful among their own children. Speaking of which, I hope you all have a good time with your father and grandfather on Father's day! =)

[Vyvial]

Master and Grand Master are subjective and only truly have the meaning that you assign to it.

But now that i own a Kung Fu school that needs to make money to pay rent, i can now see the usefulness of the terms.

Advertising. Every sifu's most dreaded enemy, i had to learn the deadly "sellyourselves" technique.

So among kung fu guys those terms may not mean much or only have personal meaning but to your average joe, they can mean a lot, especially when you don't have belts in the system.

[Phil Redmond]

I agree with Vyvial. When you have a school a layperson might ask if you're a black belt and what degree. That's because that's how the general perceives martial arts. How many of you have had friends or others ask what your rank is? When I was in Okinawa in 1966 there were 2 belts, white and black. If a person is teaching one on one or to a select group for the pleasure of it then rank means nothing. (You should still call your teacher Sifu if your teacher is traditional you want to follow Chinese Mo Duk). Unfortunately to pay the rent and and overhead of a school you may have to use ranks and titles to keep track of a student's progress. Many people associate rank with skill level. We know better of course ;)

[Yaksha]

I heard that in old shaolin, you were given the rank of master if you knew all the ins and outs of your style and could execute them flawlessly. You were only given the rank of master when your master deemed you perfectly capable of passing down his entire system to the next generation.

You were called grandmaster if more than one of your students completed your training and went on to become masters.

In old shaolin, no one called themselves master or grandmaster.

I think the meanings have changed somewhat in recent years.

[anerlich]

In modern times, these titles refer to someone who regards status and hero worship as more important than performance and learning.

[Da_Moose]

This is from a similar discussion taking place on HFY108.com. I think it might be helpful here as it gives the POV from several perspectives.

The Relevancy of Titles

What are the meanings behind the titles of Grand Master, Master, and Sifu? In the Chinese martial arts community the students always address their teacher as Sifu. Only when the martial arts came to the West did people begin to make a distinction between levels of instructor and use the titles of Instructor, Master, and Grand Master. Unfortunately the titles have been used and abused due to economic reasons and ego for qualifications and now tend to be divorced from the original intent behind the meaning of the terms.

One of my students told me of an experience he had witnessed during a promotional test. The "Masters" of the organization promoted students on the spot and skipped ranks from first to fifth degree black belt. The masters had "self promoted" themselves until they had all arrived at 10th degree black belts and the most senior of them had the rank which was considered to be the highest honor above Sa Bo Nim, he was "NIM". Sa Bo Nim literally means instructor in Korean martial art systems and is generally 1st to 4th Degree Black Belt. Within a school, all associate instructors are properly called Sa Bo Nim. There is another title, Kwan Jang Nim, meaning Master or Head Instructor of a school which is 5th Degree Black Belts or higher. In
Korean, "Nim" simply means "Sir." The student who told me the story is at the advanced level of understanding and cannot be satisfied with the abusive use of titles.

In some organizations the Masters self promote themselves, and some even sell advanced ranks. I can relate to how they use these titles in order to sell themselves to the public, because the public has begun to expect such titles. In business I use the title of Master for public communications rather than the title of Sifu. This is the most superficial way to use these titles. The superficial use of titles is at the public awareness level.
1) Superficial - This is the first layer. On the superficial layer, titles are used to relate to the public’s expectation of instructors.
- Sifu are full instructors.
- Masters are instructors that have students at the Sifu level.
- Grand Masters are instructors that have students at the Master level.
Within the martial arts family the titles are used to identify family relationships, they denote the hierarchy within the family. A Grand Master is someone that has produced a master, and a Master is someone that has produced a Sifu. Even this definition is not at the deepest level.
2) Relationships within given system - this is the second layer. On this level, titles denote relative placement within a martial arts family.
The important thing is what it means to the practitioners of the martial way.
3) Practitioner - this is the true focus. When you are Sifu, you are teaching the Way but you are also learning the Way. A Sifu is someone further along the path but still learning, advanced enough to teach on his own. Even within our family, most instructors have not finished the HFY system - we are still learning and teaching in the system.
This is the important distinction between Sifu and Master: as you get closer to Master level, not only are you teaching the Way but you are also living the Way. If you cannot apply your martial art learning in your life, you'll always be a Sifu but not a Master in the true sense of the word. A true Master is not defined by the clothes he wears but by the life he lives. When you live your teaching in all areas of your life with experience in the whole system, you're at the Master level.
Grand Masters, in the true sense, exist as an expression of the System. In a spiritual sense, they are enlightened. Their very being is the Way. This is not an easy level to achieve and in a real sense are not that common.

In Chinese martial arts, there are no special titles for Master or Grand Master - there is only layering in experience and teaching. The title of Si Jyun exists for practitioners that are inheritors of the system with both knowledge and experience, living their life as an expression of the Way.
Bun Jyun is a technical term, coming from the Buddhist culture. In a technical sense, Yat Chum Daai Si is the Bun Jyun of Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun. Due to HFY having moved out of the Shaolin Temple and into the anti-Qing revolutionary culture, the Buddhist roots of the HFY was also influenced by other cultures in China, creating a unique branch. Grand Master Gee is Si Jyun of the Hung Fa Yi system.

[Ultimatewingchun]

When Yaksha wrote the following he reminded me of my days with Moy Yat:

"I heard that in old shaolin, you were given the rank of master if you knew all the ins and outs of your style and could execute them flawlessly. You were only given the rank of master when your master deemed you perfectly capable of passing down his entire system to the next generation.

You were called grandmaster if more than one of your students completed your training and went on to become masters. "


That is almost exactly, word-for-word, what I recall Moy Yat once saying about "Master" and "Grandmaster".

[sihing]

If the instructor/Sifu asks his students to address him as Master at all times then I think this is not right. If the students start to refer to their instructor or head instructor as Master or Grandmaster (depending on how the lineage relates to that student) to people outside the organization on a voluntary basis, then IMO this is okay. For example Anerlich, if you started to refer to Rick Spain as "Master Spain", I would have no problem with this, as it is apparent that Sifu Spain has put in allot of time and effort into his training and teaching of the art of WC, so the word Master would apply to someone that does things like this.

Unfortunately as most of you have mentioned, these words have been abused in the recent decades. A prospective student should do some research on each MA school they visit and also visit allot of them to compare the qualifications and skills of the instructors at each school, before joining one school in particular.

Sihing

[Tom Kagan]

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
When Yaksha wrote the following he reminded me of my days with Moy Yat:

"I heard that in old shaolin, you were given the rank of master if you knew all the ins and outs of your style and could execute them flawlessly. You were only given the rank of master when your master deemed you perfectly capable of passing down his entire system to the next generation.

You were called grandmaster if more than one of your students completed your training and went on to become masters. "


That is almost exactly, word-for-word, what I recall Moy Yat once saying about "Master" and "Grandmaster".


I have heard him say similar things.

On the other hand, I have also heard him say a few times that all a master is a person who has a student and the title speaks nothing of their skill. The master does, however, get all of the blame and none of the credit.



The definition of the word 'master' in the english dictionary carries a number of seemingly different connotations which covers both of the above viewpoints and a few more. In yet another context, 'master' is a way to refer to a very young man.

(Does any one remember Master D!ck Grayson? :D )

[vt guy]

Sihing,

You say to do some research on some MA schools before you join. What if you have already joined a school and found out that the leader of the association isn't what he claims he to be. My previous instructor lead me to believe that he was the GM of WC, and that he was teaching the best WC out there in the world, and that no other WC is as good. I did some research and found out that the leader completed his 10 th level which is the title of sifu, but didn't complete his masters training. In W. Cheung WC he has 10 levels plus master's levels in his curriculum. I found this information with some other instructors under W. Cheung and they told me this about the leader of my previous association.

[sihing]

well what was the quality of instruction like at the school you were attending? What was the quality like of your sifu's top students? Of course just going in the a school once or twice will not reveal to you everything you need to know about that school. There has to be some kind of trust in what is told to you by the people in that school. In the association I belong to, my Sifu Master Brian Lewadny earned his level 10 from GM Cheung in 8months, can this be disputed? No it can't, as there is certification as well as photographic proof. GM Cheung also elevated Master Lewadny to North American Head of the WWCKFA back in 1994, can this be disputed? No, again this all can be verified by certification and photo and video proof(with GM Cheung doing the talking). Now just because my Sifu wasn't given the master certificate from GM Cheung, now that we are not associated with him since 95', does that mean he isn't a Master? I would introduce him as a Master to any outside the association, but Sifu never calls "HIMSELF" a master, that's the key here. Does he consider himself GM of all the WC clans, No I don't believe so. Who promoted GM Cheung to GrandMaster level? Himself? He tried to promote himself to GM of all the Wing Chun clans back in the 80's, but his seniors wouldn't let that happen.

VT Guy, it sounds like you just got the wrong impression of the school you were in, sometimes things are not as you think they are, because maybe you didn't know the whole story.

Sihing

[anerlich]

Now just because my Sifu wasn't given the master certificate from GM Cheung, now that we are not associated with him since 95', does that mean he isn't a Master?

By strict definition ...

Yes.

Since a number of other people DID complete the WWCKFA grading system and WERE given master certificates, some before 1995.

Mr Lewadny can call himself "Chief Exalted Brand Poobah" if he wants, it's as equally applicable to him and everyone else, including me and you, as as the Grandmaster title he uses on the website.

[sihing]

not sure what your problem is anerlich, seems like everytime I mention my Sifu's name you get a big hardon, oh well to each their own. Interesting that most all those that received that master's certificate before 95' are not with GM Cheung anymore, lol.

sihing

[anerlich]

seems like everytime I mention my Sifu's name

Actually, you asked the question about him and I answered it, don't ask a question if you aren't going to like the answer. And nobody who ever wore a mullet could get me aroused in the way you imply.


Interesting that most all those that received that master's certificate before 95' are not with GM Cheung anymore, lol.

And even more interesting is that some of those that didn't receive that master's certificate at any time promoted themselves after they left GM Cheung, LOL.

Some "masters" and "grandmasters" are promoted by others, some by themselves. Philip Holder reputedly had his students vote on his apotheosis. I was graded to "2nd Level Master", FWIW, which of course means SFA. I would expect to be laughed at if any of my peers or students called me that on a public forum.

[anerlich]

Having it and turning into a mullet is far worse than not having it at all, LOL.

[sihing]

you sound like a little kid in the playground, "my hair is thinner than yours so therrrrrrrre...", your hole is getting bigger and bigger anerlich, lol

[anerlich]

:o

[vt guy]

sihing

can I ask why your association parted from GM cheung's asociation?

[sihing]

its no ones business why the association I belong too is no longer with GM Cheung, that is between my Sifu and GM Cheung, it is just a fact, as many others have done the same, I do not think it is appropiate to ask such a question on a public forum such as this...If someone wants to know the answer to that question they are free to ask my Sifu, although I cannot guarantee a answer as he believes as I do that what happens in private is PRIVATE. I personally still respect GM Cheung as for who he is and what he has done for WC, and will do so in the future as this is the proper respect for one of my Sigung`s...

Sihing

[t_niehoff]

Certificates, lineage, association, etc are terms that are essentially meaningless other than to show that one person has or had some personal connection to another. It says absolutely nothing about one's fighting skill. Nothing. Instead of relying on these things to market oneself, why don't folks go down to the local NHB/MMA gym, where there are probably some skilled fighters, with their videocamera and film some fights so we can see their skill in action? (That way you don't need to tell us how good they are but can show us). They can even post them on their website (instead of those silly "here's how I would deal with a hook punch" techniques).

Regards,

Terence

[yylee]

In some other forum, I've heard people use the term "grandmaster" as if it was some kind of "head of the clan". To me, grand-master is just the master of your master, or Sifu's Sifu. It is like calling your father's father "grandfather".

How much weight do the terms "grandmaster xxx" or "grandmaster yyy" mean to you is just a personal thing. It is between you and your grandmaster.

[Vajramusti]

Some of the "debates" on "titles" are plain silly because meanings can vary by context.

A "master" can have many and quite differing meanings- a respected teacher, a knowledgeable person, someone who has mastery of a subject in respectable degree, a head of an educational unit(master of Balliol college-not implying mastery of a subject), theological authority(master of my soul variety). economic or physical dominance (master/slave)-- a general critique of the term is not very helpful, same for a general use of the term.

Sifu also can have varying meanings- skill in someting, one's teacher, a fatherly relationship. Again understanding makes for better communication.the context in which the user of the term is using it.

Apparently some orgs these days use "sifU' as a rank- which is their organizational adaptation with little or no meaning for someone outside their org.

Individual preference enters in too. Some folks call their teacher "ken"- their right. Some use the term sifu for someone who has taught them- just as in academia it might be prof for some. Mr. for others.

On a net forum like kfo it is silly to expect that one's org label to automatically mean much. Pretentious IMO to sign in as Sifu Smith.

So what's the beef- out of wing chun topics to discuss?Perhaps.
Not the first thread to zig zag along the way.