Fights go to the ground

[Rayfield]

My Kung Fu training would be considered a traditional style. We study alot of forms and do a great deal of forms during a training session. Its all about memory and doing the form exactly right. We are very intense on stances and I have to admit the stance training has made me very stable and strong in the lower body. Now, having said that, I have been in a few street fights. The style I practice is all about avoiding incoming attackes and counter attacks. We do not go into ground fighting at all. The logic behind this is simple, the opponent should be beaten before the fight gets that far or anyone trying to take you down leaves alot exposed. Although I have never been in a fight since I started training in Kung Fu, I just keep telling myself that all fights go to the ground. Never have I seen a fight or been in a fight that didnt go to the ground. Has anyone here been in or witnessed a real street fight that didnt go to the ground? Just want some feed back becuase im thinking I may need a new style to train in. I want something that is gonna benefit me in real life fighting. I can see how someof our counter attacks would prevent the fight from hitting the floor but its gotta work first. If you miss or screw up somethings got to give. So again I ask, have you ever been in or seen a fight that didnt go to the ground?

Ray

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Rayfield
anyone trying to take you down leaves alot exposed.

that's one of the most incorrect statements I've ever heard. If you know how to take someone down, very little is exposed.

To comment on your post and answer your question though, yes, I've seen fights that have not gone to the ground. And yes, I would consider training in something else. I wouldn't quit what you are doing now - by all means, stick with it - but it wouldn't hurt to cross train with some grapplers.

[Ray Pina]

When I was a kid growing up I had my share fair of scraps and I can homestly say I can't recall one going to the ground. With that said, I've seen friends take guys down to the ground, tie them up, and knee their heads.

Fights do go to the ground. Even if you are well trained, you can be taken to the ground or you can slip and fall ..... you must have a ground game plan, and you must train it.

Ask your teacher if he has one and if the school trains it. Listen carefuly to what he says. If he tries to dismiss it or talk around it, you can be sure it's something he's unfamiliar or uncomfortable with. If he plops down and asks you to mount him and show you some stuff, then you're on your way already.

Listen carefully to teacher/senior talk -- schools tend to have a collective mindset. Then be honest without yourself with the impression that you get.

Good luck,
Ray Pina

[Dark Knight]

As far as going to the ground, Rany Couture says that you shouldnt go to the ground if you dont want to. But he was a top wrestler before UFC. He trained to stop it.

If you are not training with grapplers, you will prob not satop them from taking you down. I see non-grapplers practice on each other what they think a grappler would do. But they dont have the training.

As far as on the street. Fighting a good grappler ins like fighting a good dighter in any style. They prob are not looking for fights in the street and you will not encounter it as much.

Of all the drunken jerks I have seen, I have met only a few trained ones (maybe in being a jerk, but not in fighting)

What works in the street is different for everyone. There is no one ultimate style that fits everyone. I met a TKD Black Belt that couldnt kick higher than his waist. TKD was not for him, the same ofr any style.

Train hard, train realistically and you will have an advantage over the majority of people you will encounter.

But if you want to be a grappler, train with them so you know what to expect (trying it out on each other from a video doesnt cut it)

[Yaksha]

A person goes to the ground when they're knocked out or are too beaten or crippled to stand. I've seen fights like that. Nearly every fight I've ever seen on the ground involved one guy on the ground and the other guy kicking him in the head.


Why do you practice so many forms? I'm concerned you're not getting very good training. . .

Traditional martial arts tend towards training a constant flow of spontaneous movement. Sometimes its through push hands or two man sets and always through sparring. But too many forms are not good.

Oh yeah, and painful stances for hours.

[macaulay]

Yaksha,

A fight is unpredictable and violent. It may go to the ground or not. It depends on a lot of factors. Train to handle the unexpected. The others in this thread are correct.

A side note,
You write things that confuse me like "I'm concerned you're not getting very good training. . . " and your thread about streetfighting.

Train hard and believe in yourself and your teacher. If you know that you are capable of handling the situation, what do you have to prove?

[Yaksha]

If I seem confusing, maybe its because I'm confused.

[brothernumber9]

"If I seem confusing, maybe its because I'm confused."

Yaksha has taken the most correctedness of the correct raised it above his head on a tall cliff and named it MUFASA.

[Sumatie]

I have seen a lot of fights in my time as well. In my experience about half of fights I have seen went to the ground. The fascinating thing is that the best punchers always seemed to avoid the ground, unless they were up against someone of approximate equal ability, then it is always down to a lucky punch or throw that has ended the fight before a ground struggle. In my opinion if you are fast enough on your feet and ferocious enough in your attack you can normally avoid a ground fight, but why leave that to chance. If you can't beat your opponent on your feet then, you had better be able to beat him on the ground and vice versa, because you never know what the consequence of your own and your opponents actions will be.

[QuaiJohnCain]

Originally posted by Yaksha
Why do you practice so many forms? I'm concerned you're not getting very good training. . .

Oh yeah, and painful stances for hours.

You know, I hear this alot from beginners. Ten years later, they still wonder why they can't do what thier teacher can...

[Banjos_dad]

Who was it that said, 'Sure all fights wind up on the ground...for ONE of the fighters anyway.'

Food for thought, with a side order of knuckle sandwiches.

When you spar, practice kicks from the ground, scissors, etc. whatever you can do.
You guys do spar don't you??? No one ever falls or gets swept :confused:

[reemul]

There is no telling where a fight can go. If your system is lagit, you should be able to practice within the confines of your training against grapplers and yeild techniques that prevent you going to the ground. It does depend on whether your school is for real or just another fraud, but for the most part it depends on you. If you suck, you suck, and there is no way around that except to train.

I may recall incorrectly, but if you are student of 2 years, I would say you are still a beginner and don't know much.

I am what you consider a traditional practioner, but I have friends who study JKD, BJJ, Taikwando. All of these friends afford me some respect because they understand that in the end it is the mettle of the practioner that determines the outcome and mine has been tested.

[LEGEND]

"So again I ask, have you ever been in or seen a fight that didnt go to the ground?"

YUP. 50/50. Some fight ends with someone getting KO or simply both tiring and are seperated. Others with someone getting taken down or thrown down. Bouncers/police officers prefer to throw you to the ground to get SMOTHER you. Since u haven't been in many real fights...I suggest u go to your local best buy and purchase STREET FIGHTs 1 and 2 or Ghetto Brawl. I have been in numerous real fights in my time being the only asian guy growing up in mostly a black neighborhood. It SUCKED. Regarding your form training...I encourage you to go to a sparring club and put on some gear( headgear/mma gloves or boxing gloves ) and spar with some guys.

[LEGEND]

"I may recall incorrectly, but if you are student of 2 years, I would say you are still a beginner and don't know much."

Absolutely ridiculous. After training for 2 years u should be able to handle yourself in a real fight. There are HS wrestlers after 2 months of training can slam the hell out a average berate joe.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by LEGEND
"I may recall incorrectly, but if you are student of 2 years, I would say you are still a beginner and don't know much."

Absolutely ridiculous. After training for 2 years u should be able to handle yourself in a real fight. There are HS wrestlers after 2 months of training can slam the hell out a average berate joe.

agreed.

[reemul]

2 years is still a begginer

The meaning of the statement is thus:

It does not imply ones lack of ability to fight. You may simply have natural ability to do so.

It does however imply that as KF instructors are concerned(particulary old school instructors) that you do not after only 2 years possess or understand a significant amount of material within the system of study to be considered an advanced student of KF.

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by LEGEND
There are HS wrestlers after 2 months of training can slam the hell out a average berate joe.

2 Months?

Then they are just violent young men who are now in better shape. From 0 - 2 months does not a wreckin' machine make.

[yenhoi]

One 2-3 hours lesson with an unskilled person can a wrekin machine make. What you train and how you train make huge differences in what skilled results we obtain. The mettle of the individuals and the relatinship with instructors cant be undervalued either, buts its really all about what/how you train. 2 months of wrasslin training is alot.

:eek:

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by yenhoi
One 2-3 hours lesson with an unskilled person can a wrekin machine make.

:eek:

Baka

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by yenhoi
2 months of wrasslin training is alot.

:eek:

Not really.

[LEGEND]

"Then they are just violent young men who are now in better shape. From 0 - 2 months does not a wreckin' machine make."

lol at the exclusion of techniques. Doubt the folkstyle wrestling...doesn't mean much to me cause the more doubters mean the less knowledge.

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by LEGEND
"Then they are just violent young men who are now in better shape. From 0 - 2 months does not a wreckin' machine make."

lol at the exclusion of techniques. Doubt the folkstyle wrestling...doesn't mean much to me cause the more doubters mean the less knowledge.

Care to try that one in English?

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by unkokusai
Care to try that one in English?

No?

[AmanuJRY]

There are four primary ranges in fighting (some break this up into more, but these are the logical divisions, IMO);

Kick range
Punch range
Clinch, elbow, in-fighting range
and
Ground fighting

Any serious Martial Artist will follow a training program that addresses each of these ranges, even if one is your most devistating. A lot of schools, particularly traditional ones do not nessisarily address all of them, if not, start building your own program and see what you can discover about each range.

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by unkokusai
No?

I see.

[reemul]

In the case of old school KF ground fighting is addressed in a different manner than what is taught in grappling schools.

Take ju jitstu for instance, (please correct me if I'm wrong) but my observation is that they use attack/counter attack methodology. For certain attacks there are specific counters.

In contrast a KF practioners do not train with this methodology particularly the advanced practioners. The basics of KF should have familiarized the practioner with body mechanics as well as some techniques to illustrate possibilities. The result should be an individual style that allows improvisation without effort, regardless of the range in which the fight takes place.

One other note:
KF technique when it comes to grappling do not hinge on the appendages. They may pull on ribs or do windpipe grabs and such.

[Aqira]

Thinking about if fights go to the ground or not, as well as thinking about the % of them and who trains what all adds up to limited thinking.
Martial arts is not about limited thinking, I would say before you train anything you need to retrain your thinking.

[Samurai Jack]

Take ju jitstu for instance, (please correct me if I'm wrong) but my observation is that they use attack/counter attack methodology. For certain attacks there are specific counters.

Okay, you're wrong. It's true that many traditional styles drill basic techniques and principles quite alot, but this is nothing new really. Boxers hit the heavy and the speed bag, shadow box, and do light sparring. Karateka learn basic punches, blocks and kicks, hit the makiwara etc. Wing Chun guys practice thier basic punches and kicks, chi sao, wooden dummy etc. I think you get the picture.


The basics of KF should have familiarized the practioner with body mechanics as well as some techniques to illustrate possibilities. The result should be an individual style that allows improvisation without effort, regardless of the range in which the fight takes place.

Same exact thing for traditional jujutsu. The training methodolgy moves from basic material, to more advanced applications, to improvisation through fluency. It's the one thing you can count on every martial art doing the same way because it's how humans are biologically wired to learn a new skill.

[racerexx]

Does your school practice applications from the forms? Are there any take downs or throws in your forms? How about Chin-Na locking techniques to unbalance. Surely there are sweeps and such.

If you practice applying these techniques and having them done to you, you should have some experience going to the ground and grounding someone else. Grappling does not just tech how to do a take down but also how to not be taken down.

If not you should deffinatley cross train with some grapplers in your area. Also San Shou has good closing/jamming/clinching and take downs and should provide a good realistic feel as to what will and will not work for you.

As for my self, I have seen fights not go to the ground and have been in a few (unfortunately) that have not gone to the ground, but on average most I've wittnessed or had the misfortune to be involed in have either gone to the ground completely or one person going the ground.

['MegaPoint]

It is true that most fights end up on the ground. Probably something like 80% of them. I don't know about the > than 90% range often cited by ground gamers. If you added the fact that often the victor and loser will end up in a clinch, like a double headlock while on your knees (turtle position), with one cat being pretty beaten, or if one guy goes to his knees from being staggered or KO'd, then I guess that that figure of 90% can be correct.

I do know that about 99% of fights start on your feet. If you know how to keep it there then you may never have to worry about advanced ground fighting strategies. Learning to sprawl or using tactics like the cross-face (blade of the forearm brace), countering shoots with flying knees, meeting a low tackle with a modifed Naihanchi stance crouch and push, using guillotines and underhooks- so on, is the key to learning to keep the fight standing. You must train these techs real time, starting at half-speed then working up to the full bum rush.

I think if you wrestled as a kid, played a lot of football, did Judo or BJJ then you have an advantage in the rasslin' deptartment. Just as with the pure strikers though, pure grapplers are at a distinct disadvantage on the street because you do want to keep street fights on your feet as much as possible. Being well rounded in fighting and life, with one area of expertise, should be everyone's aim. If it isn't then you don't understand what it is to "CYA" or Cover Your A$$.

Keep it up, the training and the fighting. Remember easy chokes you can do with your hands, especially against an untrained street fighter. In the first scenario I mentioned, where you are on the ground in a double head lock, remember that it is easier in that instance to just reach around with your hand and effect a blood choke with your fingers. Much easier than trying to choke someone out with a headlock.

Go train... The right way!

[Gangsterfist]

Okay, I will share something that will perhaps show some perspective on some things that involve real fighting.

My background is karate originally 3yrs. I now train wing chun and taiji. I pretty much just train CMA now. A while back ago (about a year or maybe even more) I was getting really into my wing chun and wanted to test it out. I knew a guy who did BJJ and had several years of it. He was naturally a real aggressive guy too. I sparred him, and the first time we fought I got my A$$ kicked. I didn't know how to handle ground stuff and since we were friends I did not use any hard knees and elbows and throat grabs etc. Which in turn limited me and I got owned pretty much.

Here is the thing about fighting. There is ring fighting with rules and regulations and weight classes etc etc. There is real fighting that has no rules. I was not about to toss an elbow to my friends head, that has too high risk or a bad injury on him. Many times when he would shoot me (its a take down move he kept referring to) I had some opportunities to attack him as he came in. Whether or not these attacks would be very effective I am not totally sure of because I did not try them, but I have confidence that ina real situation it would hurt someone badly.

After fighting him a while I started to be able to adapt and it was harder for him to take me down. On my feet I was way quicker than him and my hand techniques were superior to his (thats what I train).

In the end I kinda came to the conclusion that there is no long range fighting (kicking) there is no trapping range, there is no clench, there is no grappling, there is no ground fighting, there is only fighting.

Its all fighting no matter what range or position you are in. So I just train to fight now in all situations. I apply what I know when its necessary and what I don't know I learn from experience from sparring others.

However, you must also realize in sparring I dont do any neck chops, elbows to the head, finger jabs, or grab flesh. In a real fight I would have no problem doing this if I needed to.

The key is to just train and build attributes and do not be scared to face it. Have confidence in your style and technique and do not be affraid to get hit you can't always control the situation and you can't always block what comes in at you. Don't be affraid of grapplers they are not invincible and they feel pain. Unless they are uber tough, but then again those guys are hard to beat reguardless of how they fight. I may not be the best ground fighter out there (I mean fighter) but I can definately handle myself a lot better.

In a real fight situation IMHO, ground fighting is kind of pointless. I have not seen a one on one fight since grade school, its always been mutliple people vs multiple people and in those situations I would rather be on my feet.

[Samurai Jack]

The following website has the most compelling argument I've ever seen explaining why street fights so often end up on the ground. Serious stuff, check it out:

http://www.matbattle.com/

[Merryprankster]

I have confidence that ina real situation it would hurt someone badly.

Worst kind of confidence to have.

[Gangsterfist]

Originally posted by Merryprankster
Worst kind of confidence to have.

I am pretty sure a full force elbow would hurt just about anybody, but I don't see it as a guaranteed knock out or anything. I have met a few people who can take stuff like though, so I see your point.

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by Gangsterfist
since we were friends I did not use any hard knees and elbows and throat grabs etc. Which in turn limited me and I got owned pretty much. I was not about to toss an elbow to my friends head, that has too high risk or a bad injury on him. Whether or not these attacks would be very effective I am not totally sure
in sparring I dont do any neck chops, elbows to the head, finger jabs, or grab flesh.

In other words you will very likely get your ass kicked unless you employ 'techniques' that you have no idea that could actually pull off when you need to. That sounds great. No wonder you are so confident.

[Gangsterfist]

Originally posted by unkokusai
In other words you will very likely get your ass kicked unless you employ 'techniques' that you have no idea that could actually pull off when you need to. That sounds great. No wonder you are so confident.

True, I have hardly ever used some things I train in sparring because of the risk level. A few times people have gotten hurt (including myself, took and elbow to the chin once and sent me on the ground real quick). OTOH, some of them I have used in a real fight and they seemed to work okay. For the most part a good elbow will stop the guy coming at you. It may not be a knock out, but it probably will effect them. If it doesn't then you probably won't win the fight anyways. Some people are just tougher than you. If it seemed I was over confident, let me correct myself. I am confident techniques like that will work if trained properly and executed properly when needed. That is of course if you can pull it off.

I am just basing things off experience. There is no need to start an argument over it. If you think otherwise please share your experiences and your training.

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by Gangsterfist


I am just basing things off experience. There is no need to start an argument over it. .



Well, if you're gonna be all reasonable 'n ****, just forget it!:mad:

[Meat Shake]

Originally posted by Samurai Jack
The following website has the most compelling argument I've ever seen explaining why street fights so often end up on the ground. Serious stuff, check it out:

http://www.matbattle.com/


*Sadly shakes head, feeling degraded for every time a fight has gone to the ground*

[Dark Knight]

A friend of mine competed in kick boxing for years, so he has good solid striking skills. When he first looked at BJJ a couple years ago he went to a seminar with someone who making the rounds with his students. They were easy friendly people so he felt OK working with them.

They did a bunch of techniques and then had the people in the seminar try different attacks. He was allowed to strike. he figured he could hook somone before they took him down. He said it didnt work well at all. He tried knees and elbows with the students and had the same results.


When a person shoots to take you down he uses timing, if it was easy to elbow or knee someone to stop it you would see it at UFC and the other NHB events.

As far as fighting in the streets, you prob will not run across a trained fighter in the streets. They usually dont start fights. If you train hard and realistically you will have an advantage over the average schmuck out there.

Train hard, train long and train realistically
DK

[Meat Shake]

"if it was easy to elbow or knee someone to stop it you would see it at UFC and the other NHB events."

Im not one to say anything about "deadly techniques", but an elbow to the back of the head is easy, high percentage KO, but its not allowed in the UFC or NHB because a hard strike to the base of the skull can cause blindness.

[Dark Knight]

UFC does not allow it, but the other NHB organizations do.

Also in the early UFC's this was allowed, groin shots were allowed....

Different states would not allow them because of the injury possibilities (Even though nowe had died, but in boxing people have) Thats also why you see gloves in UFC but not in other NHB events.

An elbow on a trained fighter shooting in is not as easy as it sounds.

In the street you will prob fight people who are not trained fighters and you can control the fight.

Back in the 70's when I first started in the Martial Arts peole said boxing was self defense. The reason is that most times you never fought against someone who had any training. As a trained boxer, even a poor one, you had an advantage over the majority of people. The same holds true today. People who train usually dont start fights. As aq trained martial artist you should have skills to control someone from taking you down, or make it difficult for them.

[LEGEND]

"Im not one to say anything about "deadly techniques", but an elbow to the back of the head is easy, high percentage KO, but its not allowed in the UFC or NHB because a hard strike to the base of the skull can cause blindness."

Uhhhhhhhhhh earlier UFCs 1 through 10 allowed elbows to the head...Brazil and Russian NHB still allows it. U are incorrect.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Meat Shake
... but an elbow to the back of the head is easy, high percentage KO, but its not allowed in the UFC or NHB because a hard strike to the base of the skull can cause blindness. It is extremely difficult to knock someone out with elbows to the back of the head. And it sure doesn't cause blindness.

[WinterPalm]

I would speak to your Sifu about ground fighting. I train in Kung Fu and although we do not have a heavy focus on ground fighting, the style still includes ground fighting but for the purpose of escape. We'll train most specifically on avoiding and countering an attack such as a shoot, a tackle, waist height, thigh and below, and even a chest attack like a bear hug. And because Sifu says that he cannot guarantee anything will work, for always a miscalculation can occur, or the any given sunday affect, so we deal with being taken down and how to maximize your ability to get out of the situation. On top of that there are all the fundamentals of joint lock, body mechanics, and leverage that can be applied. Because Kung Fu is a stand up style, predominantly I suppose some just don't teach ground fighting, the focus is on standing and using the techniques from there. Once you get good though, I imagine a carryover in skill and spirit can help you in any given situation.
I think maybe people put too much emphasis on how to deal with this, then that, then this in so and so a way, and it is good but don't expect every conceivable angle and attack to be covered, you should be taught that a technique is a technique not in perfect delivery, but in actual delivery.

[David Jamieson]

Has anyone here been in or witnessed a real street fight that didnt go to the ground?

yes. ....well, one guy usually ends up on the ground. :P

heres my experience-

most kungfu styles train to counter a takedown but do nothing for working in the guard. From the mount is different, just keep wailing til he's not moving will most often work for you. If the guy can get out, then start again.

I recently got to do some metered ground training with some fellow enthusiasts.

Basically, no striking, start with both people kneeling and go for the mount, the guard or pass the guard.

Relaxing when you're in the guard is a big deal. Let the guy in the mount do the work and get tired, but if he's hitting you, that's different, you probably need to get some control on his arms at the joints to take his power.

For the most part, I am fairly inexperienced with a lot of it and frankly, I don't mind getting tooled by someone with the skeelz because every tech I fail at is a lesson learned.

For take downs and countering takedowns, I'm ok, but once you're there, you're there and you should have at least a couple of tools to use to change the scenario as opposed to getting a hot karl for nothing :D

I'm gonna keep working at it. I'm gonna keep working at all the other stuff too, but all ranges are important and the split on go to the ground is about 60/40 in reality but there are a lot of promoters of self out there who would have you believe that the ground is inevitable, it is not.

[Meat Shake]

"It is extremely difficult to knock someone out with elbows to the back of the head. And it sure doesn't cause blindness."

Are you kidding me? back of the head = bass of the skull where the skull meets the vertabrae. Ive been woozied up from a forearm to this spot, and it wasnt a very hard one either... and Ive got no glass jaw, mind you. Ill dig up some medical research proving trauma to this spot can cause blindness as well, just check back on this thread in a day or two.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Meat Shake
Are you kidding me? back of the head = bass of the skull where the skull meets the vertabrae. Ive been woozied up from a forearm to this spot, and it wasnt a very hard one either... Maybe you're just a wuss.

I can't tell you how many punches, elbows, and sticks I've been hit with in the base of the skull over the years. Never been close to being knocked out by any of these and, last time I checked, I could still see.

[FngSaiYuk]

I agree with KF - thwacks to the back of the head may be deadly, but so can thwacks to any other region of the body (with luck mostly ... or EXTREME training). If you got woozy after a not so hard hit by a forearm, it may have been luck, or you're genetically or structurally prone to it. Not everyone is.

Same thing as getting kicked in the groin. Will drop some people, will momentarily stun others, and for yet another type will just p!$$ 'em off so they'll hit ya even harder.

[Meat Shake]

" Maybe you're just a wuss. "

Bahaha... yes. Thats why we fight with just ufc gloves and headgear. I respect your opinions KF, but dont talk out of your ass about people you dont know.
There were even two cases of blindness here in texas from that spot... a 14 year old paintballing got shot directly on the point where the skull meets the spine. The paintball didnt bust, and the kid went blind form nerve trauma. They sued grandpa's paintball, and the business had to file for bankruptcy. (sp?) It was about 7 years ago... Im trying to find info on it, but its not so easy.... Maybe kirk just got lucky. :rolleyes: Ive been sucker punched full force with a palm directly to the temple and just been slightly woozied. Ive been slammed on my head countless times and gotten up just fine. Ive been kicked in the balls more times than I can count, and I just say "sh!t" and keep fighting. A forearm hook to the spot will daze you... I promise. Come down and spar with master john wang of the ASCSA in austin if you dont believe me. Its one of his favorite entries and one of his meaner ways to get a throw if you wont let him have it. Kirk uses it often to get an upper control throw as well.

[David Jamieson]

the medula oblongata is located at the point...roughly. be careful when you hit someone there, they may or may not have the "padding" to withstand it and you could be killing your friend, or seriously harming them. Now, the skull above that, you could whack at with pretty good force and it is fairly thick, but at the connection point there is a lot of tender stuff there.

But on the other hand, if people want to play around at being a fighter then they should take responsibility for that and sign off on the risks.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Meat Shake
... but dont talk out of your ass... Methinks you are the one talking out of his ass about somehing he doesn't know. BJJ vale tudo fighters have been using elbows to the base of the skull for over sixty years to set up the Mate Leon choke. Not only has no one been blinded, but it is rare for someone to even get knocked out from this strike.

[Meat Shake]

"Methinks you are the one talking out of his ass about somehing he doesn't know. "

Whatever. Its degraded to semantics now. Ive felt it, Ive used it, its been used on me... Its a good strike with the forearm. We dont elbow or knee to the head or face anymore because we all got tired of paying for stitches anyways.

[Gangsterfist]

Originally posted by Knifefighter
Methinks you are the one talking out of his ass about somehing he doesn't know. BJJ vale tudo fighters have been using elbows to the base of the skull for over sixty years to set up the Mate Leon choke. Not only has no one been blinded, but it is rare for someone to even get knocked out from this strike.

Post some links of them using those techs. If its so harmless then why is it banned from being used in many full contact matches?

[Samurai Jack]

Maybe you fellas haven't had any ill effects from a hit to the back of the head because there isn't anything in there to damage. ;)

A strike to the back of the head MAY cause temporary blindness due to trauma in the occipital lobe of the brain where visual stimuli are processed and interpreted.

It is a common, but usually temporary effect of back-of-the-head injuries.

[Ironwind]

The fights that I've seen and been in have hit the ground unless I end the fight quickly.

You don't have to beat the helll out of person sometimes you just gotta kill thier pride.

Nuts
eyes
Instep

Primary Targets........... for me in a Street fight to not fall.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Ironwind

eyes
Instep

Primary Targets........... for me in a Street fight to not fall.

nuts - not necessarily a fight ender. many people won't even feel the pain of a groin shot until after the adrenaline stops flowing.

eyes - not really reliable as a target because of the difficulties involved in doing so on a resisting opponent.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Gangsterfist
Post some links of them using those techs. The Gracie "In Action" tapes have several examples of multiple full force elbows to the back of the head. Most of the NHB matches of the early and mid 90's (UFC, Battlecade, Extreme Challenge, etc) had many cases of fighters being struck in the back of the head multiple times without being knocked out or blinded.


Originally posted by Gangsterfist
If its so harmless then why is it banned from being used in many full contact matches? I never said it was harmless, just that it is hard to knock someone out and doesn't cause blindness. As to why it is banned, it looks barbaric to the uninitiated, such as the legislators who write the regulations governinng these events.

[Gangsterfist]

I have heard stories of people getting hit in the back of the head so far, it popped their eyeball right out of the socket in the skull.

Also at the base of your skull in the back is where the spine connects to the brain. I don't think I would want anyone to hit me there reguardless.

[Ironwind]

Originally posted by SevenStar
nuts - not necessarily a fight ender. many people won't even feel the pain of a groin shot until after the adrenaline stops flowing.

eyes - not really reliable as a target because of the difficulties involved in doing so on a resisting opponent.

I won't make an attack to the eyes obvious not while standing.

Your right sometimes nut shots dont work while adrenilin is rushing thats why I follow up with an eye stab.

Haven't been blocked yet.

[FngSaiYuk]

Originally posted by Ironwind
I won't make an attack to the eyes obvious not while standing.

Your right sometimes nut shots dont work while adrenilin is rushing thats why I follow up with an eye stab.

Haven't been blocked yet.

Wow, how often have you done that? Also, what was the result? Were there any legal ramifications? Did the 'feel' of stabbing real eyes differ any from training the conditioning of your fingerstabs? How do you train the conditioning and accuracy of your fingerstabs?