What does Dim Mak mean to you?

[AmanuJRY]

Who all trains Dim Mak and what does it mean to you?

Is it a secret death touch or pressure point concept?

Please, this isn't a troll thread, I just would like to see how many people train this and to what degree or what concepts they apply to it.

[quiet man]

My sifu once asked his sifu about dim mak. Master Wong replied: "Dim mak is wherever I hit you."



I don't believe in death touch, but I do believe in that.

[lawrenceofidaho]

Fox News out of Chicago did some investigative journalism on the claims of a "Dim Mak Master". (This dude is ranked and certified by a person we've all heard of.)

Watch the video, -it's not hard to figure out "what's up".......

http://www.bullshido.net/modules.php?name=Downloads&d_op=getit&lid=80

-Lawrence

[Tom Kagan]

"I never learned DimMak and I don't want to. One day I might be touching myself, make a mistake, and I'd die." -- Wong Shueng Leung

"You know DimMak? Okay, try to touch me." -- Bruce Lee


"You you can choose on the body where you want to hit someone? Wow, you have to think about that a long time. Three inches this way; one inch that way: big difference? No! Big difference is that control. What the f@ck is the difference between hitting and not hitting after that? Learn this first, not some stupid chart." -- Moy Yat

[reneritchie]

Tom got his Dim Mak on, fo shore!

[blooming lotus]

dui...I do...dim-mak literally translated is "touch of death", but really, there are so many points that do not result in death, it's pbably not the greatest description.........I always, daily and even more often if possiblwe study my charts, then break for a few days to see what I retain and apply these points to new form apps.......

to be honest, I think it's more akin to chin-na but with broader scope and not so smaller target points, focusing on the actual point instead of the holding, pulling, throwing utilisation of that point.........easily mistaken........

just because you have dim-mak, doesn't mean you'll get a chance to use it ;)

[CFT]

"dim mak" (dian mai) does not really translate as "touch of death"

"dim" can mean a point, or to select
"mak" are the system of veins and arteries in the body.

So "dim mak" means to selectively attack certain veins or arteries in the body to disrupt the flow of chi or blood.

The correct term for attacking acupuncture points would be "dim yuet" (dian xue).


Definition of:
"mak" - http://zhongwen.com/d/175/x223.htm
"yuet" - http://zhongwen.com/d/165/x222.htm

[yuanfen]

What does Dim Mak mean to you?
-------------------------------------------------------------

(Well among other things it's not Dim Sum!)

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by CFT
"dim mak" (dian mai) does not really translate as "touch of death"

"dim" can mean a point, or to select
"mak" are the system of veins and arteries in the body.

So "dim mak" means to selectively attack certain veins or arteries in the body to disrupt the flow of chi or blood.

The correct term for attacking acupuncture points would be "dim yuet" (dian xue).


Definition of:
"mak" - http://zhongwen.com/d/175/x223.htm
"yuet" - http://zhongwen.com/d/165/x222.htm

if you really wanna get finicky, then there's the reverse translation of dian mai..........and the interpretive .blah blah blah.ok ....forget I mentioned it :rolleyes:

[CFT]

Originally posted by blooming lotus


if you really wanna get finicky, then there's the reverse translation of dian mai..........and the interpretive .blah blah blah.ok ....forget I mentioned it :rolleyes: Not really finicky. Just that the true translation of dim mak has no connotations of death. In Chinese martial arts fiction the use of dim mak/yuet focusses more on effects like:

1) Freezing the mobility of a person
2) Stopping them speaking
3) Making them uncontrollably sneeze, laugh, etc.

If you want to kill someone, just be more direct. What really is the use of a delayed event?

[blooming lotus]

Actually, last night I saw a brief doco on the same and heard about a guy who was humiliated and in stead of knocking the guy out or whatever, he caused him not to be able to pee for days..........

then there's few minute or second delays, so if you need the set -up time it's available.............

also found an explanation of far distanced points and related organ to damage and association when struck in this way. meridians are created at embryonic stage of life, when the embryo splits and splits again and again, certain energy paths ( meridians .cells sharing adjacent qualities) are created that connect these points or cells that were previously , post-developement laying side-by-side as part of an oringinal cell....... these same organs and cells or body parts still relate to each other as they develop into whole other singular structures .

trouble explaining here, but do you undestand the association I'm getting at???

[CFT]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
also found an explanation of far distanced points and related organ to damage and association when struck in this way. meridians are created at embryonic stage of life, when the embryo splits and splits again and again, certain energy paths ( meridians .cells sharing adjacent qualities) are created that connect these points or cells that were previously , post-developement laying side-by-side as part of an oringinal cell....... these same organs and cells or body parts still relate to each other as they develop into whole other singular structures .

trouble explaining here, but do you undestand the association I'm getting at??? Not really no. I'm not a medical doctor or biologist, but I don't think that there is any cell differentiation at such an early embryonic stage (i.e. cell division) - that is why there is such interest in embryonic stem cells.

Also, the central nervous system, the circulatory system and organs don't develop until much later .... we're talking about 10 weeks after conception or thereabouts.

I'm afraid that I just don't see the association you're putting forward being supported by medical science.

[ntc]

Well... "Dim Mak" is essentially using certain acupuncture trigger points in the body as part of your martial arts technique to basically try to manipulate what is happening in victim's body. According to TCM (traditional Chinese medicine) theory, there are 12 primary Qi channels, 8 extraordinary channels, and a few other channels that run all throughout the body, through the organs, the sensors, the bones, etc. Back in ancient China, it was believed that certain specific points along these meridians, when struck in a specific direction with specific pressure during a specific time of day, would disrupt the Qi flow in that channel, and would hence do damage to a victim. At the same time, some of these points could also be used to help a victim in certain ways, again, if struck accurately and accordingly to location, force, and time of day. An example is a point called Du 26 which is on the face at the nose area that is used to resuscitate someone who is unconscious.

As you can see, "Dim Mak" requires a lot of training and knowledge of how the meridians work and how the Qi flows for it to be effective. Definitely something that needs a lot of training and practice under knowledgeable instructors, and not something one can learn overnight.

[yuanfen]

Good post NTC.

No substitute for repetitive work, learning and experience under
knowledgeable guidamce.

The relationship between hurting and healing is an area that is not understood by many.

As you know- my (or any good)accupuncturist can hold me prisoner with about 2 to 4 needles in the right places.

Scary.

[KenWingJitsu]

I'd like to fight that Dim Mak master in my next fight....

[lawrenceofidaho]

Dhira,

when you climb into the ring with him, just hope that you are not one of the (unlucky) 40%, that his techniques work against.

;)

-Lawrence

[blooming lotus]

look.everyone knows the benifits of acupuncture, and whether or not you understand the origin of how these meridians and even chi came about, it's just a variation of the same concept.........here in China pressure points are a daily part of life.mothers massaging their kids, stimulating various points for development and healing, boys in the school yard ( or class room :mad: ) playing gongfu techs and testosterone exchange, daily therapy, as a bath or a regular western unwind session is used here..............

[CFT]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
look.everyone knows the benifits of acupuncture, and whether or not you understand the origin of how these meridians and even chi came about, it's just a variation of the same concept.........here in China pressure points are a daily part of life.mothers massaging their kids, stimulating various points for development and healing, boys in the school yard ( or class room :mad: ) playing gongfu techs and testosterone exchange, daily therapy, as a bath or a regular western unwind session is used here.............. I don't question the efficacy of accupuncture or other accupoint practices. I just object to the pseudo-science used to justify why and how they work.

It is conceivable that one day the whole TCM/accupoint theory can be described using "conventional" medicine theories.

Why should we accept the idea of an immeasureable energy (chi) that resides in the body? If it can be scientifically proved that it is some kind of bio-chemical potential that can be manipulated consciously then I have no problem with it.

The problem I have with chi/accupoint techniques is that they can be reproduced by people who have no belief in them. They just hit with good body structure at the right time and place.

[AmanuJRY]

"It is conceivable that one day the whole TCM/accupoint theory can be described using "conventional" medicine theories." - CFT

When westerners were still arguing about the validity of "conventional" medicine theories, the accupoint/accupuncture theory was in wide practice in china. Maybe it's not that chi theories need to be described in conventional terms, but that conventional terms need to be altered (as they have in the past) to accomodate new theories.


"Why should we accept the idea of an immeasureable energy (chi) that resides in the body?" - CFT

immeasureable???
have you heard of Kirlian photography???
http://www.tesla.org/
There is much in this world we don't nessisarrily understand but that doesn't mean it can't be recognized or measured.

My take on it;

I believe there is truth to the theories of chi meridians and accupoint, and that this is an excellent source for wholistic health and healing. Not magic, not imaginary.
There are three main systems in the human body necisarry for suvival and health; The Nervous system, The Circulatory system and the Lymph system. All three of these need to work together, and "cross paths" so to speak. One affects the other, i.e. - lack of blood flow causes the nervous system to malfunction (sleeper hold = pass out. can this be classified as dim mak?), or a strike to a nerve causing reduced circulation.
The link to the Lymph system is more obscure, as many lay-persons are not as familiar with it's role in health, but as many know it is a bad scene when cancer cells reach the Lymph system.

As far as a "death touch", possible, but not likly in a straight up combat situation. Too many variables and conditions (let alone the time and energy spent to train it, could be better spent on just defeating your opponent in stead of "killing" him).
But....the use of the knowledge of pressure points has helped me escape some holds and could lead to a weakening of a larger opponent's ability, i.e. - by striking (with a punch, palm, biu or even pheonix eye punch) a nerve plexus in the arm (to weaken punching ability), leg (to weaken stance) or body (to weaken core muscle groups).
This is what I find useful about Dim Mak, but I believe the real study of it's principals be applied to healing not hurting (unless necisarry) and definatly not a delayed "killing".

[blooming lotus]

look.believe it or don't.have too many other "real" things to think about.......... I'm not here to convince you but if you want some info I can provide you some.or hey.sit in your naive, "this jus aint real" world and we'll aLL CONTINUE ON OUR MERRY WAYS.........LATER

don't troll me.I'm prgnant and ****ed OFF!!!:( :D

you know the pm address :rolleyes: :cool:

[blooming lotus]

ps: dim mak pricipals rely on blood qi, oxygen qi and electri-magnetic........I'm sure that'll make no sense . but pregnancy tests are not being kind, so today i don't care...good-bye

[anerlich]

The mention of dim mak means you should be very suspicious and keep your hand on your wallet.


look.everyone knows the benifits of acupuncture

Actually the benefits of acupuncture are far from universally recognized by healing professionals.

[Miles Teg]

"Actually the benefits of acupuncture are far from universally recognized by healing professionals".


LOL It sure didnt help my dad give up smoking!


(Fortunately he gave up after getting the flu though)

[AmanuJRY]

Originally posted by Miles Teg
"It sure didnt help my dad give up smoking!"
(Fortunately he gave up after getting the flu though)

I really don't see how going to an acupuncturist to quit smoking is logical.

It's kinda like going to a mechanic to get rid of the country music in your car.

Although acupuncture is assosiated to energy flow in the body and that energy flow is what makes the gears in our brains work, I don't believe that it can re-route the neural pathways that form the habits we have, only hard work and effort (and maybe hypnotherapy).


"Actually the benefits of acupuncture are far from universally recognized by healing professionals." - anerlich

But they are being widely accepted by people seeking health.
I think health professionals are both sceptic (good) and maybe just a little scared/jealous (bad), 'cause there is obviously both some truth and still some mystery to chineese medicine.

[blooming lotus]

fair enough.I did the same trip pre-dim-mak study myself.....and I know that the smoking treatment does more than focus your awareness, but what are you all saying here....that tcm is sh*t?????.well I say your practioners or even yourselves are just not half as adept as you thought you were.................these folks know medicine and bodily functions on a more ntimate level than western medicine ever will...goddammed die western infoed products...........................peace.what ever works..

but I'd never see a western doctor if a tcm was available./chemicals and placeboes.??????????have a wan*.I'll just take the most natural way thx.........


then I don't have bs side - effects to come back and bite me on the as* later..............as is ALWAYS the case with 1/2 ie western medicinial "advice" :rolleyes:


fair enough............wtf eva :cool:

[AmanuJRY]

blooming lotus,

The topic was about dim mak (or variations of) not on whether or not TCM is valid or not. I don't believe I have posted in opposition to it.

I am in large favor of wholistic and alternative medicine, but I can't deny the effect of western medicine either. As far as side effects, there may not be any from things such as accupuncture or accupressure (unless done wrong) but as far as herbal medicine goes there is. And personally I believe that psychology plays a part in this - i.e. belief is power, and if you believe TCM works, it will. If you believe western medicine will have overwelming negitive side-effects it will. Why do you think they use a placebo in testing? To filter out the effects of individual psychology.

At any rate, I'm not baggin on Chineese/wholistic medicine.
Just tryin' to discuss how/when these principles can be used, realistically, in martial art applications.

[Miles Teg]

AmanuJRY

I dont know the connection mate, you're probably right. In NZ many accupuncture clinics seem to promote it as part of their product offering. I know a few others who have done it to give up smoking as well - all unsuccessful.
I know from having giving up myself that it has to come from within you and you have to have a strong desire to give up - its all psycological. I had tried hypnotism to nicotine patches - didnt work.

[blooming lotus]

the point is that dim-mak and point striking applicative to martial arts wouldn't exist if tcm , meridians etc didn't first............just the destructive side of healing............pretty standard practice in many parts of the world

[anerlich]

I'm prgnant and ****ed OFF!!!

While not wanting to dismiss the gravity of your situation, you did bag me once for swearing ("WTF") on this forum. I'm hardly a prude, but at least practise what you preach before lecturing others.

I hope your situation turns out to be a positive one for you. My wife was unable to have children, and fertility is not possible for every female. Count your blessings at least.


the point is that dim-mak and point striking applicative to martial arts wouldn't exist

In my opinion they don't, other than the obvious weak points of the human body that every boxer or kickboxer knows about. All the TCM-related esoteric stuff is highly moot.

In any case, even Dim Mak's most fervent pushers, like Erle Montaigue, say that it's completely useless unless you can fight well without it. If it exists, it's the icing on the cake, not the bread and butter.

[anerlich]

But they are being widely accepted by people seeking health.

Because something is popularly accepted amongst the uninformed or partially informed does not mean it is logically valid. Appeal to popularity.

I trained Xingyi with one of the first Westerners in Australia to be qualified as an acupuncturist, from Taiwanese and HK bodies. He attempted to treat me for a number of ailments. Complete waste of time.

Anecdotal evidence? Yes. But as valid scientifically as that of those hordes accepting it.

[yuanfen]

Bloomimg Lotus:

For almosta hundred years there has beena fairly rapid set of various technology transfers taking place globally including east and west.

In the process people borrow what they want to sometimes: not knowing the metaphysical foundations involved, not understanding them and sometimes not needing them.

One can fly without investigating aero dynamics deeply. And one can do yoga asanas without understanding Patanjali and the rest of the literature and theories of the body.


So also in the transference of CMA some folks have beein interested in TCM and other not even amomgst some Chinese.
Leung Jan knew TCM-Ip Man was not particularlya TCM person.
My sifu is but keeps the tcm separate from wing chun in teaching.

I myself am not an MD- but I come froma long line of MDs on both sides of my family and respect many things about western medicine. But there are good and bad MDs..

But alternative medicine is coming into its own as well- borrowing from TCM and other traditions. And there are good and badTCM practitioners.

So what am I saying- some folks do wing chun and also respect TCM. Others take one and not the other.
Some are interested in hitting points and others are not. Even those who are interested-point out it is not easy to master.

Changing world views on net forums is a lost cause.


BTW- Interestingly-Ip Man before leaving Foshan told some of his students to develop their Phoenix eye fist.

A bit of rambling- but cheers anyway.

[yuanfen]

Without any intentional racism---there has not been enough time for western TCM practitioners to devlop enough tacit knowledge and an extensive body of experience with first class TCM.

Good medicine- allopathy or TCM involves good craftmanship...
not easily acquired and not always readily available.

Even in China there are differing levels of expertise. The best go through some training in westren medicine as well.

But we digress ona wing chun forum.

[PaulH]

If someone just mumbles to my face: "Dim Mak", My fragile male ego may break from such penetrating and shattering impact! =)

[blooming lotus]

I'm an avid supporter of Earle Montaigues work myself and have at home some great charts etc he has put out..............each to their own, if you can use it make it work for you ( as many dedicated students do through-out the world), then props to you , but if you're still a sceptic, will always be a sceptic and/or just are simply uninterested.............just do what works.............

Ps. anerlich, agreed..........dim-mak must be part of a complete ma regime of combined arts, can hardly stand without something/style to apply it to , but definately a complimentary tech in my own arsenal