OT: Cops can demand ID, high court rules

[Fen]

The Associated Press
Updated: 10:47 a.m. ET June 21, 2004
Can be found here at MSN (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5262068/)

Copy of it:

Cops can demand ID, high court rules

WASHINGTON - The Supreme Court ruled Monday that people do not have a constitutional right to refuse to tell police their names.
The 5-4 decision frees the government to arrest and punish people who won’t cooperate by revealing their identity.

The decision was a defeat for privacy rights advocates who argued that the government could use this power to force people who have done nothing wrong to submit to fingerprinting or divulge more personal information.

Police, meanwhile, had argued that identification requests are a routine part of detective work, including efforts to get information about terrorists.

The justices upheld a Nevada cattle rancher’s misdemeanor conviction. He was arrested after he told a deputy that he didn’t have to reveal his name or show an ID during an encounter on a rural road in 2000.

Larry “Dudley” Hiibel was prosecuted, based on his silence and fined $250. The Nevada Supreme Court sided with police on a 4-3 vote last year.

What's in a name?
Justices agreed in a unique ruling that addresses just what’s in a name.

The ruling was a follow up to a 1968 decision that said police may briefly detain someone on reasonable suspicion of wrongdoing, without the stronger standard of probable cause, to get more information. Justices said that during such brief detentions, known as Terry stops after the 1968 ruling, people must answer questions about their identities.

Justices had been asked to rule that forcing someone to give police their name violated a person’s Fourth Amendment protection from unreasonable searches and the Fifth Amendment right against self-incrimination.

Justice Anthony M. Kennedy, writing for the majority, said that that it violated neither.

“Obtaining a suspect’s name in the course of a Terry stop serves important government interests,” Kennedy wrote.

Hummmmmmmm I will need to think on this one..

~Jason

[Meat Shake]

Cops in texas will arrest you anyways...

[3rdrateIMAkilla]

*******s

[Meat Shake]

Speak of the devil...
Wierd ****...
Just posted that, then walked out front and had 2 cop cars waiting for us... "A neighbor called in about a suspicious vehicle being parked out front."
"yes, thats my jeep. I live here."
"What about the mustang?"
"Its my friends. My jeep is here, meaning Im here. This needs not be an issue."
"I need I.D.s from everyone."
So we all gave the pigs some ID, then they start talking **** about ticketing my friend for parking the wrong direction. I told them that "You're duty is to protect and serve, not belittle and harass. He is here visiting me, we gave you I.D.'s. There is no problem here, you need to leave."
They told him not to park like that anymore and left...
Stupid pigs.

[red5angel]

I odn't see what the problem is here, if a policeman asks you for your id, give it to him. I've found that when someone resists giving that info out, it's because they have a reason for it ;)

meat shake, sound like you and your freinds are bucking for the darwin awards this year. I'm surprised this little story (which I'm not buying by the way, I think your full of crap on the smack talk) didn't involve kungfu and you and your buddies scaring your freinds. By the way, you do realise it's illegal to park facing the wrong direction? I'm sure the cops in your area must be completely different from the cops everywhere else, who just walk away from a couple of smart mouthed idiots.

[lkfmdc]

****, I can't claim to be Rahsaan Kimbrow anymore :D

[ShaolinTiger00]

I can't claim to be Rahsaan Kimbrow anymore

I thought I was the only one!

Sallallahu 'alaihi wa sallam

[Merryprankster]

Red,

If somebody refuses a search of their car does that mean they have a reason? MAybe they just don't want their stuff searched...

I happen to agree that this particular ruling is not a violation of 4th amendment rights. Asking for proof of identity is hardly unreasonable.

I also happen to agree that this ruling is proper overall. Giving out your name cannot be construed as something that gives you the opportunity to invoke the 5th amendment. Neither the due process clause nor the "pleading the 5th" portion applies. Due process just means you won't be deprived of life, liberty or property without due process and I don't think you can reasonably claim that your name is life, liberty or property. The right against self-incrimination applies only to criminal cases. I'm pretty sure you can't invoke the 5th in a civil suit.

Since a police officer stopping somebody isn't a criminal case [there is no indictment, etc] this is a moot point. 5th amendment doesn't apply....

[mickey]

"constitutional right"

We have been without a Constitution for quite some time already. This high court ruling only proves it.

mickey

[Meat Shake]

"(which I'm not buying by the way, I think your full of crap on the smack talk) didn't involve kungfu and you and your buddies scaring your freinds. By the way, you do realise it's illegal to park facing the wrong direction"

lol.
Just because you allow people to walk on you doesnt mean I do. I know my rights, I was on my property as well. I could give a **** if you believe me or not.
And the kung fu comment is hardly relevant, you know I fight full contact, and if you dont WD can tell you how things go down here... I dont know what kind of fighting you guys do.

I dont mind giving I.D.
I do mind being harassed for no reason, and you're **** straight Im going to talk **** if its one of the very few times I dont have anything illegal on me.

[inic]

Heh, I never have ID on me, partly on purpose. I have 4 last names and 2 middle names (legal changes). If they ask my name, I'll just give an old last name and middle name as first name. Personally I just do the "keep-walking-and-pretend-not-to-hear-because-i-have-headphones-on" method. :)
Plus I'm a ****y, white, preppy guy, so I'm stereotyped "well behaved" guy (around here anyway).

[CaptinPickAxe]

I give ID. I have no warrants.
I belive police in my town harass and try to scare people. This is not right. The police have too much power and they keep giving them more. I'm talking about walking into houses w/o warrants or probable cause. The ability to search a car w/o consent and using the absence of consent as a reason to search. Your in public and under the age of 30, they have the right to harass you, ask what your doing here, and ID you.

This is bullsh!t....plain and simple...no matter how much you may think it isn't.

[joedoe]

If you have nothing to hide, then what is the difference?

[ShaolinTiger00]

And hey Mr. Cop, ain't got no
(What you say down there)
Ain't got no birth cerf-i-tificate on me now.

]

[cerebus]

Hmmmm. I've done nothing wrong, I don't match the description of anyone they're looking for, and they're not even looking for anyone in the first place..... but I can still go to jail and be fined just for keeping my mouth shut when they start questioning me?

Now, I'm all for law & order. I used to be a cop myself. I can understand a person having to answer questions if they're suspected of being involved in or having info about a situation. But to say I can be stopped and questioned (and required to produce I.D.) for no reason at all (maybe the cops are just bored) and that I can be jailed if I don't answer sounds like we're veering a LITTLE too close to the precursor of a military state/ dictatorship.

Not happy with the direction this is going. :(

[joedoe]

But hasn't this been a reality for a significant portion of your population for a long time anyway? Or have I been fed another load of BS?

[cerebus]

Not exactly. Cops could stop you and ask for your ID, but if they didn't give you a reason why (responding to a situation, you match description of someone they're looking for or you might have witnessed something, etc.) you could refuse to tell them anything. They might try to intimidate or bully you into giving them your name, but they couldn't throw you in jail and fine you unless you were obstructing an investigation or were a suspect.

[SanSoo Student]

This all stems from that stupid Patriot/Homeland Security Act. Neighbors spying on other neighbors for "suspicious doings". I had to Arab friends come over to my house, and both of them had big Suburban trucks. so when the parked it naturally went over my driveway into the sidewalk.

So my neighbors call, saying there were suspicious people going into my house. Cops come, and give them tickets for double parking. and see the neighbor across the street (the one that called) was park off the edge of the curb. He was about to give them tickets, but my friends convinced the cops to let them go, since they did their job here. Shows you how stupid our suspicions can be, just because they are big, buff, and "Middle Eastern" :eek:

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

It reminds me of the Nazi movies.. "your papers, please".. in which the "please" was simply a formality, the civilian had no choice.. I agree that there is no inherent problem with asking someone to identify themselves.. but, there is a pattern to this administration's policies, an erosion of civil liberties in the name of "homeland security".. yes, we are moving closer to those Nazi/Soviet tactics where each "citizen" is expected to be an agent for the state.. The state serves its own purpose, it exists largely to perpetuate itself, to preserve its ideology.. originally, the government was intended to regulate commerce and provide for the common defense of the nation.. consider how far removed from those simple charges we are today. The same people that fund and empower the government are subjugated by it, are fearful of it.. and, can't even elect a a leader by common vote (Gore/Bush).. For the first time this nation has engaged in pre-emptive aggression (our right to defend ourselves on the belief that another government is likely to attack us).. pre-emptive aggression based on poorly gathered intelligence or, worse yet, the possibility that the intelligence was manipulated to entice support for such unilateral and pre-emptive aggression..

In the words of commercial advertising, "this is not your father's America".. there was a time when the right to free speech was revered and respected with the responsibility such a right demands.. but, i sense that is losing its appeal as well.. as i stood in line at the grocery store with my 9 year old son, the "gentleman" (and i use that term loosely) in front of us was wearing a t-shirt that sported nudity and very disturbing language.. i suggested that it might be inappropriate to wear that where children could see it and the "gentleman" asserted his "right to free speech" yet, agressively suggested that i didn't have a right my own free speech in commenting on his poor choice of appearal.. (the rest is memorialized in the court records, sorry)..

Are the "rights" we enjoy superior to common decency? is it essential to push at every limit the rights we are afforded.. cripe, some of the lyrics of music made today suggest that we are no more that animals.. that violence and lawlessness are virtues to the new culture.. Anyone that knows me knows that i am far from a saint, but.. i sense that the government simply represents the opposite extreme of the current cultural influences.. to the degree that popular music and culture suggests lawlessness and violence, so then the government seeks to counter that threat to the nation's stability.. There is a "middle path" where freedoms can be enjoyed and society can mend itself.. how can the world respect a nation whose culture and economic foundations are built on beating the system that supports it.. the system, in defense, retalliates with oppressive legislation and rules.. we struggle against ourselves.. a poor example to the rest of the civilized world..

So, the request to produce identification on request seems to be a minor issue in the big scheme of things.. but, it is another "brick in the wall"..

Be well...

[cerebus]

Heh, heh. I had the same image go through my mind when I read about this.

Police Officer: Halt! Your papers please!

Me: Uh, well all I have is a passport and I left that at home.

Officer: Franz! Zis vun does not haff his papers! Vhat should vee do vith heem?

Officer #2: Ja Hans! Vee know how to deal vith zis type of lowlife! In zee car now! Mach Schnell!

Cerebus disappears never to be heard from again..... :(

[Vash]

All of a sudden, those crazies living in the hills, away from civilization, and packing away guns like there's no tomorrow, well, they don't seem so crazy.

:(

Good post, TaiChiBob.

[dodger87]

Sansoo student, your friends should've let the cops fine your neighbours. Thats what they get for being nosy *******s.

[Becca]

Ayear or so ago I got pulled over 4 times in one day and asked to show my I.d. When I asked why they had stopped me, all they would tell me is that they couldn't tell me why. I was very annoyed! Right up to watching the nightly news were the lead story was about a suspected kidnaper who mached my description and was driving a car the same color and similar body style as mine. I even have a son the same age as the one who was missing. They showed her pic.. she could have been my twin.

I didn't mind being a little inconinienced after that...

They often won't tell you if they are looking for stalkers and such, either. But an i.d. check will help them in the search for one. A "bad guy" can change thier apperence, but if they don't have a differnt I.d., they will likely run. Or atleast be spooked enough to leave the area.


I don't know about you, but I don't mind havong to show my I.d. on the chance I could be helping the cops keep someone else safe.

[inic]

I'm not some anti-american person, but the amount of things that happen here and things that people get away with, I give this country 20 years max. Then another country will take its turn as super power. we may have won world war 2, but I think thats when this country started its downfall.

[WinterPalm]

My condolences go out to all the Americans posting on this board. At one time your country was noted for its civil rights and internal unwavering respect for the constitution. I don't think your country is democracy anymore and I feel sorry for you.
I still think, that just like you accepted people from the broken parts of Europe and elsewhere, countries like Canada and the EU members will be willing to take refuges. I know Canada accepted several Arab origin refuges right before the second Iraq war.:(

[Meat Shake]

"we may have won world war 2, but I think thats when this country started its downfall."

I dont think so... America is the only true superpower. America is dangerously powerful... That wont change any time soon...

[WinterPalm]

THe biggest threat facing the American "power" which is more like "force", is the people it houses. Soon people are going to realize the rights being removed and then it will either be a civil war or an outbreak of anarchy. I think the weapons the US has will pose a threat but then it will be the job of the UN to disarm America so that things like George W. cannot every happen again. IF he is reelected, there will be dark times for America, but I think the rest of the world is willing to help the citizens as America has done for the rest of the world in its past.
Time can only tell how far the government will have to go before they cannot control the population anymore. I just hope my country doesn't go down with it...

[Merryprankster]

Blah blah blah "Hate America." Blah blah blah, "America sucks." Blah Blah Blah "Erosion of Civil rights." Blah blah blah:

"I don't understand law, the constitution, how it's applied, what my rights REALLY are and regurgitate what is fed to me like pap from a spoon."

I might remind those shivering in the corner that this was a 5-4 vote. It's bound to come up again.

The bottom line is simple. The defense argued the case on 4th and 5th amendment rights as well as the "right to privacy," found in the pen-umbra of several amendments. I want to say 9th, 11th and 12th, but I'm sure Judge Pen will correct me! :D

4th doesn't apply. 5th doesn't apply. Privacy doesn't apply.

WHAT THEY DO WITH YOUR NAME afterwards may invoke these rights, but being required to produce ID in and of itself doesn't invoke these rights.

[3rdrateIMAkilla]

Hmm. I don't know. It seems that everyone's right here, and the people's hearts and minds is what counts. Maybe it's possible for hope in a horrible communist dictatorship, if people are good and considerate. But what if you are homeless, and they can make you dissapear. Looking at situations like the abu graib and guantanoma or whatever they're called, I don't know, I don't know.

[Merryprankster]

Ok, so I probably went a bit overboard.

But people need to stop behaving as if somehow their rights are being "taken away."

The truth is, that prior to this ruling, there wasn't a decision on constitutional grounds that this was a right at all.

What we had before was an absence of a ruling. This did not reverse a decision.

It's funny. People talk about legislating from the bench, but when people adhere to the law/constitution, you get even more *****ing.

I mean, look at the HMO case decision that was released the same day. Justice Bader-Ginsberg basically said "if you want to change our decision, you have to get the law changed."

MY biggest peeve comes from when justices apply different standards to their legal rulings depending on which point of view they agree with. Now THAT's legislating from the bench. I firmly believe your approach needs to be as consistent as possible, from case to case.

I always liked Justice Black. I didn't agree with all his opinions, but at least you knew where he was coming from!

[ShaolinTiger00]

Justice Bader-Ginsberg

I don't trust women with hypenated last names.

[red5angel]

If somebody refuses a search of their car does that mean they have a reason? MAybe they just don't want their stuff searched...

I allowed for that option but for the most part I don't buy it. If you don't have anything to worry about why refuse?

Frankly I don't see a problem with it. The police are provided to enforce the laws. Without the co-operation of this societies citizens you don't have law or order, you have anarchy. If you don't want anarchy you have to make allowances. In this case there is nothing unreasonable about making you produce your identification. Part of the reason you're even asked is to confirm you are not wanted for anything. If they are going to write you up on a violation, and you don't provide ID, how are they supposed to know you're who you say you are? At that point I say you get to go to jail until you prove otherwise, because your dumb ass refused to show ID.

I just don't fukking get it, what does this have to do with civil rights or anything else. Winterpalm, are so ignorant that you believe that not showing your proof of identity to a policeman is a right of some sort? I'm interested to hear from anyone, how policemen are supposed to do their jobs effectively if they don't have the right to confirm who they are speaking with? how the fukk does anything get done if anyone and everyone can opt to not prove who they are? What sort of sense does that even make?
Next thing we'll start hearing is how search warrants are wrong, how handcuffs are inhumane and how our government is trying to force it's morality on us by pursecuting murderes. Keeerist some people are dumb.

[Shen Zhou]

Not to get to in depth with the but the 4th amendment does apply to this issue. The 4th amendment states 'The rights to be secured in their persons, their houses, their papers, and their other property, from all unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated by warrants issued without probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, or not particularly describing the places to be searched, or the persons or things to be seized.'' The law is a funny thing it does not always go with what is truly right and just it some times goes to the person who can state better that right and just is on their side, prime example Atty. Jonnie Cochran and his well versed law defenses. What I would like to pull out of this is what I think is being violated within the 4th admen. “The right to be secure in their person…” What does this mean? Does this mean that I have the right to defend myself from questioning that I deem intrusive, potentially unlawful, and unreasonable as stated in the 4th? Who decides what is unreasonable to me? Does not giving my ID to an officer if I am a passenger in another’s car merit enough probable cause to warrant being arrested? What happen to guilty until proven innocent?


"The police are provided to enforce the laws. Without the co-operation of this societies citizens you don't have law or order, you have anarchy."

This would not be a problem if they did there jobs on the other end of the spectrum. There jobs is not to harasses the mass of people until they find one criminal. Their supposed jobs are to “protect and serve” not intimidation, stalking, and persecution of the people. But this is nothing new to America its been going on since its formation, from legal vigilantism towards the Native Americans, Legal bounty hunters sent out to find escape slaves, to legal detainment and imprisonment of American Asians, to enforcement of the South Jim Crow laws, to the 60’s and Communist witch hunts and the destruction of the black power structure, and Waco, Tx.

In this case there is nothing unreasonable about making you produce your identification.

Who is to deemed what is reasonable when it come to me and my person and my information, the government? If this is the case and I for one think that this is what it is coming to we are in a heap load of trouble.

Part of the reason you're even asked is to confirm you are not wanted for anything.

Where is the Probable Cause? What Provoked the questioning in the first place? If I give the officer cause to ask me for my ID then I deserve the questioning, but if I do not do I still deserve the questioning?

If they are going to write you up on a violation, and you don't provide ID, how are they supposed to know you're who you say you are? At that point I say you get to go to jail until you prove otherwise, because your dumb ass refused to show ID.

Probable Cause is giving with the violation. ID is warranted to be asked for.

I just don't fukking get it, what does this have to do with civil rights or anything else?

CIVIL RIGHTS to control your person, your information and your “destiny” with out having to be persecuted for nothing.

Winterpalm, are so ignorant that you believe that not showing your proof of identity to a policeman is a right of some sort?

Controlling your information is not a right? Basically being told you have to speak or you will go to jail is a better right?

I'm interested to hear from anyone, how policemen are supposed to do their jobs effectively if they don't have the right to confirm who they are speaking with?

The police have never performed their jobs effectively. Is this law supposed to correct the wrongs not only within the formal structure of the police system but also the human factor?

How the fukk does anything get done if anyone and everyone can opt to not prove who they are? What sort of sense does that even make?
Probable cause give the police the right to move forward more aggressive. Without it no need to get any thing done.

Next thing we'll start hearing is how search warrants are wrong, how handcuffs are inhumane and how our government is trying to force it's morality on us by pursecuting murderes.

LMAO There Not?

[Vash]

Good points SZ.

[CaptinPickAxe]

Waco, Tx and the David Coresh stand off was entirely too ****ed up. How can you kill all of the innocent hostages and not have reprocussions?

The Pendelum of Power swings only in one direction.

[red5angel]

ah SZ so many holes, so little time -

"from all unreasonable searches and seizures,"

Asking for an ID is not in anyway unreasonable. everytime you go to purchase alcohol or cigarettes or even get into a movie they ask for it.

"This would not be a problem if they did there jobs on the other end of the spectrum. There jobs is not to harasses the mass of people until they find one criminal."

Ah yes, because when cops aren't eating donuts they're out harassing innocent citizens! :rolleyes: If cops are bad is your attitude then the conversation stops here.


"Who is to deemed what is reasonable when it come to me and my person and my information, the government?"

Who issues that ID to you again? Oh yes, the government! Is it your right or your privelage to carry it? to carry one is to participate in the system.

"Where is the Probable Cause? What Provoked the questioning in the first place? "

Who are you to determine probable cause? The police are trained to observe and intervene if necessary, even on a hunch, it's not a perfect science but it helps keep your ass alive and from being violated. Just like the police cannot be at all places at all times, they can't see perfectly what's going on all the time. If a cop has a problem or thinks there may be a problem, that's probable cause enough. It's his job.


"CIVIL RIGHTS to control your person, your information and your “destiny” with out having to be persecuted for nothing. "

right on brother, er I mean you got a serious complex me thinks. Asking for your ID is not violating your civil rights, nor is it persecuting you, it's asking you to confirm who you are. If the cop is going to persecute you, he has already made that decision long before he bothers to ask for your license. "Oh wait, it says here your black! I need to persecute you!" :rolleyes:

"Controlling your information is not a right? Basically being told you have to speak or you will go to jail is a better right?"

You have the right to remain silent. In no way does producing proof of who you are incriminate or say anything about your guilt in anyway, unless your already wanted for something.

"The police have never performed their jobs effectively."

That's right dumba$$, you nailed it on the head. Cops have never done anything right in their lives, why bother having them, their just out there abusing their power and trying to keep us down. fukk, crawl out of your arse and open your eyes for a change. not all cops are bad and not all of them are not doing their jobs correctly, and your huge generalisation and overstatement shows that your feelings are anti-establishment, and reveal a certain hatred for authority figures.


"Probable cause give the police the right to move forward more aggressive. Without it no need to get any thing done."

That's right, so you have two choices, be a retard and not show your ID, where doe sthat get you? Your personal rights haven't been violated either way and they won't be violated either when you get to spend the night in jail. I can't think of one logical or legitimate argument for why one should not produce his ID when asked too. It's not a form of oppression, and if it's some sort of power play you're dealing with one sorry cop.

"LMAO There Not?"

No the people around you are. but feel free to move to a country where law holds almost no sway. But before you go, get a gun, a big one.

keeerist, that was the weakest argument I've seen on this board in a long time. You gotta try harder then blaiming the police and the government for all your woes.

[Vash]

Good points, R5A

[Merryprankster]

Asking for an ID is not in anyway unreasonable.

Exactly! And that's the end of it, in this instance.

[Rayfield]

Any of you that think its ok for police to ask for your ID for no reason at all are missing the big picture. And going to jail for not responding to the request is insane. People say "ahh, thats not a big deal" and let it slide. Over time they make these little changes that invade on your privacy then eventually we have no privacy. The whole reason this country exist is because people got feed up with authority figures invading in their lives. That kinda stuff goes against the very being of this country but none see it that way because over many decades these little changes have crept into our society little by little and everyone sees it as normal. Hell, at one point in this country duels to the death were accepted. Do something like that now and you rott in jail. Im not saying duels to the death are one of my rights but trying to stress how things change little by little. If it continues my childrens children wont be able to go the grocery store without some authority figure monitoring their daily activities. Just my opinion thou.


Ray

[Shen Zhou]

ah SZ so many holes, so little time –

Lmao So many holes huh? Well I just have one hole to deal with right now you and your foolish comments.

"from all unreasonable searches and seizures,"

Asking for an ID is not in anyway unreasonable. Every time you go to purchase alcohol or cigarettes or even get into a movie they ask for it.

And your point is what? At these places I don’t have to give them my ID if I don’t want to. That’s is a CHOICE if I want to show to them my ID to buy those things. CHOICE being the keyword in the sentence. Give me an example where if I don’t show my ID I will be taken to jail.

Ah yes, because when cops aren't eating donuts they're out harassing innocent citizens! If cops are bad is your attitude then the conversation stops here.

You can see my attitude over the internet? Lets see if we ( me and the police) match up:

1. Last couple years there have been how many cop related beatings then ended in death or maiming? 10+

Shen Zhou 0

2. Last couple of years there have been how many innocent people killed by the cops? 10+

Shen Zhou 0

3. Last couple of years how many cop have been found guilty of criminal behavior (ie stealing, raping, etc.)
10+

Shen Zhou 0

We can go on and on and on but I think that is enough to make your statement above look like the asinine statement it is.

Who issues that ID to you again? Oh yes, the government! Is it your right or your privelage to carry it? to carry one is to participate in the system.

Oh ok I see since the government gave me the ID they have the right to ask for it back. It does not belong to me at all it belongs to the government. It’s a privilege to carry around a laminated piece of paper with my birth date, height, weight, eye color, picture, sex, and address on it. That’s what you call privilege? Wow man civil liberties don’t mean anything to you huh?

Who are you to determine probable cause? The police are trained to observe and intervene if necessary, even on a hunch, it's not a perfect science but it helps keep your ass alive and from being violated. Just like the police cannot be at all places at all times, they can't see perfectly what's going on all the time.

Who am I to determine what probable cause is? I AM THE PEOPLE the ones who they are supposed to protect and serve. Their jobs are to be civil servants that means servants of the public. The people are meant to dictate how they want their government organizations ran but some where down the line government took over and started dictating what is best for the people. The people have no more rights we are being govern by a ruling class of select people. The police have never kept my ass alive or from being
violated.

If a cop has a problem or thinks there may be a problem, that's probable cause enough. It's his job.

So your telling me that any cop at any time can pull you over and harass, demean, search you and your person any time they have a hunch? WOW man you a sure straight shooter and a model citizen.


right on brother, er I mean you got a serious complex me thinks. Asking for your ID is not violating your civil rights, nor is it persecuting you, it's asking you to confirm who you are. If the cop is going to persecute you, he has already made that decision long before he bothers to ask for your license. "Oh wait, it says here your black! I need to persecute you!"


You’re a funny cat Red. I like how you add punchlines at the end of each statement it takes away from your points. Nice move.Violating because I HAVE to answer even if innocent. They have taken away the right by me to just not say anything. I don’t want you to know my name just cause its my name and my right if I want to tell it to you or not. I no longer have that right unless I want to go to jail.

You have the right to remain silent. In no way does producing proof of who you are incriminate or say anything about your guilt in anyway, unless your already wanted for something.

What if I just don’t want to tell them my name? Just cause I don’t want to is a freedom that has been taken away. But we all know that freedom is an illusion anyway so really what does it matter.

"The police have never performed their jobs effectively."

That's right dumba$$, you nailed it on the head. Cops have never done anything right in their lives, why bother having them, their just out there abusing their power and trying to keep us down. fukk, crawl out of your arse and open your eyes for a change. not all cops are bad and not all of them are not doing their jobs correctly, and your huge generalization and overstatement shows that your feelings are anti-establishment, and reveal a certain hatred for authority figures.

If cops are bad is your attitude then the conversation stops here. Yeah lets just keep the things the way they are at the moment. A not working system is better then not having one at all huh? Effectively in the sense that the system they work for does not work effectively so how can they perform correctly? So yes The police have never performed their jobs effectively. If your being taught the wrong way then you will do it the wrong way.

That's right, so you have two choices, be a retard and not show your ID, where doe sthat get you? Your personal rights haven't been violated either way and they won't be violated either when you get to spend the night in jail. I can't think of one logical or legitimate argument for why one should not produce his ID when asked too. It's not a form of oppression, and if it's some sort of power play you're dealing with one sorry cop.

LMAO

No the people around you are. but feel free to move to a country where law holds almost no sway. But before you go, get a gun, a big one.

keeerist, that was the weakest argument I've seen on this board in a long time. You gotta try harder then blaiming the police and the government for all your woes.


Where did I blame any one for my woes? Now my comments on your statements they are all empty of value, merit, common sense, and factual evidence. They are idiotic at best full of blank rhetoric like those of a dimwit sheep. No need to move any where else to be treated less then a citizen I can do all that right here in the good Ol’ USA. And as for me being anti- establishment I an not I vote, pay taxes, even have some friends in office so I am not out to dis-band the government but I for one do this it need and complete overhaul. So Red one last punch line for the road and I get this from the great Bid Daddy Kane “Put a quarter in your ass cuz your played yourself.”

[red5angel]

And your point is what? At these places I don’t have to give them my ID if I don’t want to. That’s is a CHOICE if I want to show to them my ID to buy those things

no the choice comes in purchasing the item, you HAVE to show and are required by law to show your ID to purchase them. But it was a good try, no really.


We can go on and on and on but I think that is enough to make your statement above look like the asinine statement it is.


Incorrect shen zhou it just backs up my argument. Anyone who wants to make huge sweeping generalizations about cops and their attitudes obviously has a problem with them in general. Just because one cop is bad, or a few may not handle situations apropriately doesn't mean they all are, but again, nice try.


Oh ok I see since the government gave me the ID they have the right to ask for it back.


Uh yes, that about sums it up.


I AM THE PEOPLE

Glad you capped that because YOU ARE NOT THE LAW nor do you ENFORCE THE LAW. A doctor is the one to determine what a disease is, why? Because he has the schooling and education to back it up. Not all doctors are right, but that doesn't mean doctors are all wrong, unless we go with your logic so far.


The police have never kept my ass alive or from being

interesting to see what your short sighted view would be if there were no police forces or law in the US.


So your telling me that any cop at any time can pull you over and harass, demean, search you and your person any time they have a hunch? WOW man you a sure straight shooter and a model citizen.

uh yeah, that's what I said, they should have the right to harass and demean you anytime :rolleyes: . Or wait, no I didn't I said they have the right to ask for your ID at any time so that they can know who they are dealing with. "harass" and "demean" are emotional responses from someone who hates cops because they really don't understand and haven't taken the time to understand what cop is or does. Instead they want to propogate their ignorant views on authority by over generalizing and fear mongering based on their angry view of how they should get to live. Like I said Shen Zhou, anytime you want, move to a lawless third world country and see how long you survive ;)



They have taken away the right by me to just not say anything.

no, they haven't as a matter of fact because of the miranda act you can remain silent until you have spoken with your attorney. Talking to the cops may incriminate you whether you deserve it or not, providing an ID in no way incriminates you unless you are already wanted by the law. There's no violation there.


I don’t want you to know my name just cause its my name and my right if I want to tell it to you or my

now I see your dysfunction. You want your cake and you want to eat it too. You want to have the comfort of living in a law abiding society, but don't want to have to make any of the sacrifices it takes to do so. sorry, you can't ever be 100% free until your dead ;) Jumping on the "oh my god the government is taking our rights away bandwagon" isn't going to do anything but get you into the chicken little club.


Just cause I don’t want to is a freedom that has been taken away.

Just cause you don't want to? What are you 5? I reiterate that if you do not want to hand over ID you are most likely hiding something. It's the same with everyone I know who makes the same sorts of generalizing statements about cops you have been. They don't like cops cause cops almost always get in the way of their doing things they aren't supposed to do anyway.

OH MY GOD! I just figured out something! I can't choose to not wear clothes to work?! The government is taken my freedom away!!!!!!!!


keerist.....

and Vash, stop trolling you bastich!!!! :D

[Shen Zhou]

Cant argue with logic. When your right your right.

"Like I said Shen Zhou, anytime you want, move to a lawless third world country and see how long you survive" (http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/West/06/23/police.beating/index.html)

Hmmmm I wonder.

[red5angel]

yeah, that wasn't predictable. How many cops are there again? ALL OF THEM? I don't think so....of course, maybe he didn't show them his ID like they asked ;)

[Shen Zhou]

This has become more then isolated incidents. And I am sure you have been waiting to say that. Hey I am sure what ever he did deserved that beating right. Where did you say I had to go to live in a lawless country?

[red5angel]

that's right shen zhou, it's logical to assume that since a few of these cops did it and a few more cops from time to time do things like this, they all must be worthless. good attitude, I bet you have a name for every color of man and woman on the planet too dontcha? ;)

[Vash]

Originally posted by red5angel
and Vash, stop trolling you bastich!!!! :D

Good points, all :eek: :D

[Shen Zhou]

I bet you have a name for every color of man and woman on the planet too dontcha?


A few? Red your a funny, funny guy. Implying I am racist classic material. You thow out the race card more then anyone I have ever seen. Interesting I wonder what is behind all of this? But hey when your white your right. Right Red?

[red5angel]

no, I'm implying your a generalist, that you obviously assume that because of the behaviours of a few, that they all must be that way. Go ahead, go back and read your posts and tell me it ain't true.

[Shen Zhou]

Now you where not implyijng race with your statement about me having names for all the so called race colors. Sillyness Red just sillyness. You keep using the word Few I have giving you more then a few examples of this type of behavior. But like I said Red you cant argue with logic give it up and find another topic to defend. Its not true that I am generalist when I have examples that show acts liek these happening over and over again. I never said all cops where bad you implied I did. I said the system they use is bad and you reap what you sow. You sow corupt seeds you will reap corupt fuit Red simple. What are the seeds that these people and these laws are sowing Red?

YOU REAP WHAT YOU SOW

[wdl]

Loss of civil rights, police abuse, blah blah blah.


As the point has already been made, technically it can be argued it is a loss of a civil right and it can be argued that it isn't. Let's compare this to another popular law, seat belts!

Personally, I wear a seat belt everyday. Makes sense to me, I don't want to be ejected from the vehicle if my car does a cartwheel down I-40 at 70MPH+. Honestly, your STUPID if you don't wear one. Governmentally speaking, I feel violated everytime I sit down in my car with the understanding the State of Tennessee mandates I have to perform the action of putting on my seatbelt. I see it as the state government micromanaging and I would be equally offended if they passed a law stating that I had to use a coaster when I put a glass on my coffee table at home. You might argue that they can't pass a "coaster" law, but they can, they have other laws that mandate how you act in your own home, just think about it.

Back to IDs and vehicle searches. If you don't have anything to hide what's the big deal? Show them your ID, if your not breaking what do you have to worry about? If they abuse you that's what civil attorneys are for. I went through a liscense stop about 4 years ago, the local county sheriffs deputy asked if they could search the vehicle. I simply asked for a reason why they wanted to search it I was told, "because the dog spotted on the car". Well, they walked shep around it once and gave him a dog biscuit. The dog never spotted, friend of mine handles police dogs, I know how they operate. They were just using it as an excuse. At this point I knew, because I was 19 years old had three other friends in the car of roughly the same age, they were going to search the car no matter what. I told them go ahead, you won't find anything. They turned my *** upside down, left my spar tire unfastened down in the trunk, all of the stuff from my glove compartment out, anything that had been put in a place wasn't, etc. Found nothing. Excuse for not finding anything? When they had us empty our pockets one of the guys has an asthma enhailer, "The dog must have smelled that". B.S.

However, had I refused the search, refused to show ID, etc, MY life would have been even worse. I'd say I'd have had to have taken a ride down to the country jail, etc. It's not worth the extra BS. If you don't have anything to hide what's the problem with cooperating? So they screw you over and inconveince you? Have a night out with your friends, drink some beer and b**** about it, you'll feel better! Really, you will!


-Will

[red5angel]

shen zhou, you have a few fukking examples, does that make your logic correct somehow? You go to a certain area of my town and you'll find a lot of violent angry black and mexican men, does that mean all black and mexican men are angry and violent?

I have a hard time believing you can't understand that. A few cases, no matter how real they are does not make a case for even the majority, especially not with our media. I could probably find you plenty of evidence that there are tons more good cops out there, people who serve and protect as they are meant too, I know several of them myself. Your too busy however, generalizing about ALL cops and how they ALL fail and how they ALL abuse their power. You know its a lame-a$$ argument and I know it's a lame a$$ argument so why don't we just try to get past that sort of idiocy right now shall we?

but you're right, every cop in the country, no wait the world, must be learning to hate and to take your rights away as we speak, it's one big conspiracy designed to put us all down.


"Back to IDs and vehicle searches. If you don't have anything to hide what's the big deal?"

exactly ;)

[Becca]

For those who don't want thier vehicle searched: How many of you have a problem with kids smuggling drugs or guns? Cars are one of the most common ways to smuggle things like that. Searching cars being driven by individuals who fit the profile of said smuglers is the best way to catch them. It su(ks, I know. But until people stop buying these smuggled, very dangerous items it will have to be tolerated.

[Shadowboxer]

They turned my *** upside down, left my spar tire unfastened down in the trunk, all of the stuff from my glove compartment out, anything that had been put in a place wasn't, etc. Found nothing. Excuse for not finding anything? When they had us empty our pockets one of the guys has an asthma enhailer, "The dog must have smelled that". B.S.

However, had I refused the search, refused to show ID, etc, MY life would have been even worse. I'd say I'd have had to have taken a ride down to the country jail, etc--wdl

(Is this protecting and serving?)

I said the system they use is bad and you reap what you sow.-SZ

-----------------------------------


As far as the seatbelt analogy, seatbelts serve the purpose of saving your life. Letting the cops know who you are doesn't serve that purpose--it's not the same thing. Besides, I don't want Big Brother knowing where I am anyway.

[MasterKiller]

Seat belt laws were established because insurance companies lobbied to have them established. They save millions of dollars every year in medical and lawsuit claims because of seat belt laws. In the end, and like most American laws, it was a monetary issue, not one of safety, public welfare, or personal rights.

[Merryprankster]

When they had us empty our pockets one of the guys has an asthma enhailer, "The dog must have smelled that". B.S.

Actually, this makes a lot of sense.

Check out the chemical structures of epinephrine and Meth sometime. :) I think they use p-fed to train the dogs for Meth...they are all structurally similar.

[wdl]

Originally posted by Merryprankster


Actually, this makes a lot of sense.

Check out the chemical structures of epinephrine and Meth sometime. :) I think they use p-fed to train the dogs for Meth...they are all structurally similar.

That is interesting. Still, alot of trouble for nothing. Made us late for the movie theater by about 30 minutes, etc. The inconveinence was monumental that day. I stayed PO'd for awhile. LOL

Shadowboxer: Not hardly. But my point still remains, your innocent until proven guilty. They couldn't find evidence of any wrong doing. Was I wronged by them? I think I was in regard to the condition they left my personal belongings in. I fit a profile that they look for, racial, age, or otherwise. The stats don't lie, I fit a profile that is suspect. I can't help that, they can't help that. Was the sheriff's deputy that conducted and lead the search professional about it? No, he was an @$$hole the entire time, looked at me like I had raped his kitten. What I know is that everytime they do a local liscense stop here randomly usually there is one vehicle pulled to the side getting searched. About half of that time you see a bottle of open and not totally consumed alcoholic beverage on the roof or some sort of drug paraphanaila. The system sucks, I don't like it as much as anyone else, but I put up with it.

There has been talk on this thread of the current federal government taking their rights. Most of them want to ditch the current government and get another one. Both extreme right wingers and extreme left wingers talk about ditching the federal government system as a whole and starting over again, usually based on "the way it used to be". I used to think it was a good idea. Now I don't. Why? Because people are TOO stupid. Think of the quagmire that would happen if the federal government was abolished and the arguement over how a new one would be formed? Last time somebody tried to just leave we had a 4 year civil war, so I guess that's not an option anymore. As screwed up as people are in the head anymore, I have arrived at the conclusion that any federal government that would be erected to replace the federal government we have now would be worse.

Thoughts?

-Will

[Becca]

I guess I don't see the point in reinventing the wheel. If we scrap what we have now, we will quickly end up just like Iraq is now. And when we finally get the new system up and running, it will probably look alot like the current one. Why go through all that heartache just get back to where we are now?

[Shadowboxer]

Over time they make these little changes that invade on your privacy then eventually we have no privacy.--Rayfield

(Not picking on you wdl)...but I wonder if Red is going to rant about this generalization? :

What I know is that everytime they do a local liscense stop here randomly usually there is one vehicle pulled to the side getting searched. About half of that time you see a bottle of open and not totally consumed alcoholic beverage on the roof or some sort of drug paraphanaila.

---------------------

I am not for scraping the Government. I'm for our elected officials to always remember it's of the people by the people and for the people.

--------------------

(still not picking on wdl)

wdl says: "...your innocent until proven guilty."

Does everybody agree on this these days?

[red5angel]

what's really ironic about all the whining is that nothing has really changed. what do you think would happen 10 days ago if you were to be pulled over or stopped by the police, they ask you for your ID and you refused? Do you really think they are just going to go "ok" and walk back to their car and drive away like "oh well, we couldn't nail him on anything cause he wouldn't give us his ID."
LOL! cracks me up. Stop and think about it before you start railing against the tyrannies and the oppressions please.

[wdl]

Originally posted by Shadowboxer

I am not for scraping the Government. I'm for our elected officials to always remember it's of the people by the people and for the people.

Yep. Something 90% of them know nothing about.

-Will

[Shen Zhou]

have arrived at the conclusion that any federal government that would be erected to replace the federal government we have now would be worse.

Agreed! America needs to truly practice democracy and not dictator ship called democracy. Would we be better off with another government ? Who knows but I do know you cant continue to kick a dog for long before he bites.

[Rayfield]

Originally posted by red5angel
what do you think would happen 10 days ago if you were to be pulled over or stopped by the police, they ask you for your ID and you refused? Do you really think they are just going to go "ok" and walk back to their car and drive away like "oh well, we couldn't nail him on anything cause he wouldn't give us his ID."
LOL! cracks me up. Stop and think about it before you start railing against the tyrannies and the oppressions please.

LMAO! ten years ago I was hanging out in the parking lot of a local restraunt with 2 of my friends. We were in my truck and I was driving. At the time I had no licencse because they had been revoked several months before. As we sat there in the truck, we get spot lighted from behind by a policeman. Cop walks up to the car and ask for my ID. I simlply told the policeman that, "I dont have them on me right now". Cop looks in the window at everyone inside then ask, " who has been drinking tonite"? No one says a **** thing. Next the officer ask, " whos got their licencse on with them"? Both of my friends state that they have their licencse with them. Cop says to me, "ok I dont want to see you driving again tonite", and with that he just walks away. with this new rule, I would have went to jail that nite. Pffft! screw that!

Ray

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

I have no problem producing identification upon request. If someone has something to hide, then they knew the rules of the game (ie: they are hiding something).. and the game isn't going in their favor.. Producing ID is no big deal, but.. whenever the Officer calls it in i do ask why.. if i am verifying that i am not someone else that they may be searching for, the ID should be sufficient.. if they call it in, they are fishing.. or, they need to explain that i have acted in some way that aroused suspicion.. Roadblock type license checks are annoying and offensive.. why don't LEOs stop vehicles leaving night-clubs where there is probable cause to suspect DUIs?

A bigger issue is one like has been described here.. unproductive searches where the citizen is left to clean up a mess unjustifiably made.. In as much as the citizens are held accountable for their actions, so then should the Law Enforcement Agencies.. If LEOs knew they had to return the auto or home to the same condition as they found it in whenever they conduct searches they might actually look for "probable cause".. If a citizen is arrested and tried and found not guilty, the Gov't should be responsible to reimburse the "not guilty" for all losses associated with prosecution including attorney's fees. This would reduce the number of unreasonable searches and motivate the Gov't to reduce its policy of harassment prosecution.. a close friend of mine was the victim of just such a policy and it bankrupted him, the State said "too bad"..

The most precious asset we have aside from our health is the freedom to enjoy it.. protect that freedom.. The Patriot Act and so many other recent legislative and judicial actions are inconsistent with a free society..

Be well..

[red5angel]

with this new rule, I would have went to jail that nite. Pffft! screw that!


I don't think so, this sort of encounter reflects the attitude of the individual in a singular moment.

I agree taichibob - if they turn everything over looking for something that isn't there, they should be held responsible for returning everything to the state it started in.
However, I certainly feel they are within their rights to not return everything to the state it was, if by some act of stupidity on your part, they were forced to pull you over or approach you in the first place.

[Vash]

I 100%, TCB.

[Shen Zhou]

In as much as the citizens are held accountable for their actions, so then should the Law Enforcement Agencies



THE END

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..



However, I certainly feel they are within their rights to not return everything to the state it was, if by some act of stupidity on your part, they were forced to pull you over or approach you in the first place.
Hmmm.. suppose i turned right on red and didn't notice the "no turn on red" sign in the glare of the setting sun.. does the LEO have the right to search without returning to original condition?.. Hardly!! If i have done something stupid the LEOs job is to address that issue, not punish me by tossing my vehicle and leaving the mess for me to clean up.. that is wholly inappropriate.. This issue is about simple and common respect.. i respect and admire a competent LEO and pay taxes to receive the same respect..

Too often, LEOs use this tactic to "make a point", even though they didn't find something, you fit the profile, so.. they inconvenience the "suspect" as a warning.. ( i train LEOs, i've heard it all before).. how can a LEO expect respect with that sort of attitude.. a LEO is not a judge or jury, their job is NOT to hand out street justice based on their belief that the suspect was just lucky to not be in violation that particular time.. If you hang around enough LEOs you will find a pervasive subculture within the LEO community that is violently racist and frighteningly close to the mind-set of white supremists, they accept their role as a license to "teach people lessons" on how to be "good Americans"..

I know the rules, if i screw-up i know the consequences.. if a competent LEO calls me on it, i fully respect his Job, his office, and the professional manner in which he executes his authority.. adversely, if an incompetent LEO or a LEO with an attitude gets out of line, i will call him on it as well.. (yes, it has been unpleasant at times).. A LEO that abuses his authority, intimidates the public, and has an agenda other than what is mandated by law is no better than the criminals.. A good LEO is an asset to society, a bad LEO tears the fabric of society..

It's a game with rules, both sides need to play by the rules or the game becomes invalid..

Be well..

[red5angel]

a lot of accusations of profiling going on on this thread......

[MasterKiller]

If the law is capable of this, (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=573&ncid=757&e=1&u=/nm/20040624/od_nm/odd_judge_dc) they are certainly capable of profiling.

[Becca]

The irony of profiling is that it is a good tool for law enforcement and does work if used correctly. But a tool is only as good as the person using it. Or, in the case of some idividuals, abusing it.

[Shen Zhou]

The irony of profiling is that it is a good tool for law enforcement


"Racial profiling results in the persecution of innocent people.
Every year, police stop thousands of innocent African-Americans, Latinos, Asians, Arabs, Muslims and Native Americans because they fit a particular ethnic profile. For instance, in the aftermath of 9/11, hundreds of Arab and Muslim men were rounded up, deniedaccess to counsel, held for weeks without charge or trial and subjected to verbal taunts and physical abuse. None were found to have any connection to the attacks."

Its easy to say getting kicked in the nuts does not hurt when you dont get kick or could never get kicked in the nuts. If profilling does not effect you then its easy to say its a good tool. Until you are driving alone down a road and get pulled over by the police, for for fitting a profile of being black, or being middle eastern, or being mexican, or being non-white and five more police cars show up and your heart feels like its about to jump out of your chest because you dont know what there intentions are then comment on profiling.

[red5angel]

Its easy to say getting kicked in the nuts does not hurt when you dont get kick or could never get kicked in the nuts. If profilling does not effect you then its easy to say its a good tool. Until you are driving alone down a road and get pulled over by the police, for for fitting a profile of being black, or being middle eastern, or being mexican, or being non-white and five more police cars show up and your heart feels like its about to jump out of your chest because you dont know what there intentions are then comment on profiling.


so now we've moved on from generalizing to making huge assumptions? shen Zhou, working hard at invalidating your opinions this weeak aren't you?

[Becca]

The part I like is where he picks a post the agrees with him, takes few words out of context, then uses them them to bash the person was agreeing with him!

Congrats Shen Zhou! You have made youself look like an idiot! Or did you not bother to read the whole post? It was three whole sentances...:rolleyes:

[red5angel]

Congrats Shen Zhou! You have made youself look like an idiot!

he has to be trying too! No way someone could do this on accident. ;)

[Vash]

red5;

You seem rather bent on proving there is a lack of corruption within our society's keepers. Or, at least, that it is not as widespread as it probably is.

What's the smallest town you've ever had to live in? I went to school in a town with two LEOs. Both were not exactly model citizens. One had a 10' by 12' back yard, kept a rather big horse in said yard. The other was known as something of a problem causer. The town itself had less than 700 people divided over the state line (it was a junction city, half the town in Arkansas, half in Louisiana).

Both had a tendency to pull over students leaving the high school. One car would leave the parking lot, blue lights start a flashin'. Soon as that car gets a ticket (only occasionally did one get a reason for getting pulled over, he stops, lets a few cars go, and BOOM, another blue-light special. I only got pulled over when i didn't have my two brothers to take home that day, which was kind of nice of him.

The gym I used to attend, it was something of a hangout spot for the local police. Since I got to the gym about the time the shift changed, I was privy to hearing much about the officers' day. One day, I heard this:

". . . anyway, he went and ****ed me the **** off, so he gets a ****ing citation. I tell him not to go ****in in the wind with me, cuz he'll get all ****ing wet. I told him, not to **** with my girl. She wants me, not that ******* ****sucker. So I cited him for a busted taillight I gave him."

That was one of the nicer stories I got to hear.

Not all those in law enforcement, government, or other type of state- or national-run agency are abusing their power. Many, in fact, are great people, people I'm proud to have in the government's service. Unfortunately, there are more who do than we would like to think.

Power corrupts, and all that.

[red5angel]

You seem rather bent on proving there is a lack of corruption within our society's keepers. Or, at least, that it is not as widespread as it probably is.

no, what I'm trying to point out is that we tend to view things through our own colored glasses. I've had good and bad experiences with cops and LEO's. I've never let the bad affect my view of the good. It's generalizing to the extreme.
There are two things that can prove someones ignorance faster then anything in the world in my opinion - arguing religion and generalizing. I'm only half white, and only look white in deep winter. I've lived in small towns (pop. 172) and large towns (Minneapolis).
We could tell stories all day about the good the bad and the ugly it doesn't prove a thing. It's an emotional response and an ignorant view to believe that all cops or even most cops are abusive, megalomaniacs. Just like it's an ignorant view to think taht all black people are breaking the law and all native americans are drunks.

while people like Shen Zhou claim to be fighting to make things better, their actually only committing the same sorts of problems they are constantly raving and ranting about.

[Vash]

Originally posted by red5angel
no, what I'm trying to point out is that we tend to view things through our own colored glasses. I've had good and bad experiences with cops and LEO's. I've never let the bad affect my view of the good. It's generalizing to the extreme.
There are two things that can prove someones ignorance faster then anything in the world in my opinion - arguing religion and generalizing. I'm only half white, and only look white in deep winter. I've lived in small towns (pop. 172) and large towns (Minneapolis).
We could tell stories all day about the good the bad and the ugly it doesn't prove a thing. It's an emotional response and an ignorant view to believe that all cops or even most cops are abusive, megalomaniacs. Just like it's an ignorant view to think taht all black people are breaking the law and all native americans are drunks.

while people like Shen Zhou claim to be fighting to make things better, their actually only committing the same sorts of problems they are constantly raving and ranting about.

Thanks for clarifying.

Many of the points you make are quite valid and quite right.

I am a little disheartened, however, by the corruption I've seen. Though not indicitive of the whole of the system, it is a poor representation of it, and a bad indicator of what it could be were a blind eye ever turned towards it.

[red5angel]

I am a little disheartened, however, by the corruption I've seen.


Thats understandable, but at the end of the day it's important to keep things in perspective to get a more true picture of the world, Corruption exists in every organization that exists in one way or another and some more then others. The LEO is no different, but they like everyone else, are human beings.

[Shen Zhou]

It’s funny when you point out flaws people get really defensive. Hence the idea of kicking the dog one to many times huh Red. "We hold these truths to be self evident that all men are created equal" But in find print there has to be the unless clause where it states we can profile certain groups because their not like us. There has to say this some where in there. Now on to your comments Red. Red your right let me ask Becca if she is on the profile list. As of right now there are a few main types those being blacks, Muslims (people of eastern decent) Latinos, and socially economically poor whites not to be left out. Becca are you on the profile list or have ever been profiled?


Congrats Shen Zhou! You have made youself look like an idiot! Or did you not bother to read the whole post? It was three whole sentances...

Explain to me how I made my self look like an idiot? I read the whole post, but it does not take away from the fact that you said profiling was a good thing. Explain to me how it is a good thing when it singles out a group of people for being different? Now as for calling me and Idiot Becca now was that called for? I purpose a new amendment you can say what ever you want, unless the ruling class does not agree with you and in which case we in state the following stigma:

1. Idiot
2. Anti - American
3. Anti - Government
4. Racist
5. Criminal
6. Uneducated
7. Militant

What is Idiot saying profiling is a good idea

What is anti-American saying giving up some liberties is a good idea and profiling is a good idea.

What is anti-"government" Not being able to have a say in government policy. And saying profiling is a good idea when we the people are who the government is supposed to work for. Not profile against.

What is Racist pulling some one over because of a physical difference. And saying profiling is a good idea.

What is uneducated is allowing unwritten laws like profiling aka Jim Crow continue like it does not exist. If it does not affect me and mine I am fine with it. And saying profiling is a good idea.

What is militant enforcing unwritten law with force and with your authority. AND SAYING PROFILING IS A GOOD IDEA.

Red what can I say to you that has not been said about you before? You about the most idiotic person I have ever had the pleasure to chat with. I am at a loss for words trying to describe your harebrained comments. I have printed these pages out and will let all my friends read them. You have brought laughter back to Texas Red and I for one thanks you.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..


Thats understandable, but at the end of the day it's important to keep things in perspective to get a more true picture of the world, Corruption exists in every organization that exists in one way or another and some more then others. The LEO is no different, but they like everyone else, are human beings.

Agreed.. but, in accepting a position of such importance, in giving an oath of duty.. professionals are held to higher standards, at least to the standards they are charged with enforcing..

As a side note.. this nation, in fact this civilization, should invest more of its resources (money) in teachers, to insure the future.. and law enforcement, to protect the present.. perhaps with better funding we could attract more consistently qualified people to these under-rated professions.. shoveling millions into the pockets of steroid enhanced atheletes and people claiming to make "music" is not wise investing.. that is not to imply that ALL atheletes or musicians fit that description.. but, it seems that too many do..

Be well..

[red5angel]

It’s funny when you point out flaws people get really defensive.

LOL! When did you do that again? Was that on this thread?


Explain to me how I made my self look like an idiot?

no ones going to bother to go back and cut and paste all your posts shen zhou.


Red what can I say to you that has not been said about you before? You about the most idiotic person I have ever had the pleasure to chat with. I am at a loss for words trying to describe your harebrained comments. I have printed these pages out and will let all my friends read them. You have brought laughter back to Texas Red and I for one thanks you.


LOL! your breakin' my heart shen, really. I can't help it if you've been outclassed this entire time man, just suck it up and move on with your ignorant, racist, and oh yeah, anti-government ways ;)

[red5angel]

taichibob, agreed on all points.

[Becca]

Shen Zhou- The last tow sentances of that three sentence post made my point. Profiling, as a tool can be uselful if used correctly. But some idividuals abuse it by using it to do what they want rather that what they are paid to do. Is that plain enough for you?

[red5angel]

Becca, how could you know anything about this subject being the white middle class male you are? ;)

[Shen Zhou]

Profiling, as a tool can be uselful if used correctly. But some idividuals abuse it by using it to do what they want rather that what they are paid to do. Is that plain enough for you?

Yes, thats clears it right up. Next time I get profiled I will just brush it off as that officer not knowing that profiling is supposed to be meant for good. Hey while I am at it next time a redneck calles me out of my name, that can slide as well. And hey maybe next time after that when I see and injust search, beating, jailing, verbal abuse, and harassment I will say man that officer needs to learn the error of his ways and keep on strolling.

ITS ALL GOOD CAUSE ITS NOT HAPPENING TO ME.

How to build a better America:

Screw brother hood its all about the goverment.

[Becca]

Now you're just being nasty Shen. Just because things aren't going your way doesn't mean the world is out to get you.

Yes, I know I'm waisting my breath, so to speak. It's much easier to rage at the world for being unfair then to look a little deeper into issues. Then you might realize that you have it pretty good, even if you sometimes get delt a bad hand in life...

[Shen Zhou]

I have a great hand in life. And anyone on the board that knows me can attest. But Becca I am not a single organism in the world i am a member of the greater whole of humans. It is my inpression that any injustice againist my fellow man is also an injustice aganist myself. lol being black, or mexican or arab or jewish is a bad hand. The world is not unfair the world is justice its the people thats are unfair namely a select few. Its not even a "race" issue its a social issue becasue the lower you economic state goes the more likely the laws effect you more. But yeah you can save your breath cause am profiling you right now and i have come to the conclusion that people with the screen name Becca like to say "Profiling is good" and those issues that Profiling produce are just because you have a bad hand which is your differences. (ie race, economic status, speech pattern, long hair, hugs trees, etc.)

[red5angel]

But yeah you can save your breath cause am profiling you right now and i have come to the conclusion that people with the screen name Becca like to say "Profiling is good" and those issues that Profiling produce are just because you have a bad hand which is your differences. (ie race, economic status, speech pattern, long hair, hugs trees, etc.)


wtf?! your making less and less sense.....

[Becca]

Red, When do trolls ever make sence?

[red5angel]

too true...

[Shadowboxer]

At that point I say you get to go to jail until you prove otherwise, because your dumb ass refused to show ID.--R5A

-----------------------------------------------------

no, what I'm trying to point out is that we tend to view things through our own colored glasses--R5A

----------------------------------------------------

Red is generalizing that most cops are OK and don't abuse power.

He actually believes it is OK to be thrown in jail for refusing to show ID, for whatever reason. Another generalization is that you are stupid or have something to hide, if you don't show ID (So now the State decides stupidity gets you locked up?). What about innocent until proven guilty? Where do you think the framers of the Constitution would stand on the issue of being required to show ID to the state or being locked up for refusing?

MLK said that peaceful/non-violent protest shows the highest repsect for law. So, if I protest having to show my ID to an LEO who is abusing the fact that they have a badge and gun, I should go to jail according to Red. I could be minding my own business, you know in the pursuit of life, liberty and happiness, and Johnny Law decides to mess with me because he can. This doesn't sound like the America I remember. Like Rayfield said, your rights to privacy disappear one by one...

[wdl]

Becca, I agree completely with your statements on profiling. The stats don't lie. As I've stated before, I've fallen victim to it, I don't care. Somebody else that fit the profile got caught that day. It's a small community area where I live, if that idiot had been drunk and driving when I was returning home that evening and caused an accident with my involved and I lived.. well I'd be in jail for murder 1 right now.

Shen's problem is he is in disbelieve of mathmatical evidence. He doesn't want to face the facts.

-Will

[cerebus]

Heh, heh. This is funny. I don't have a car and I don't look too young to buy alcohol so I don't carry ID. Therefore (by some of the reasoning presented here) if I'm stopped while riding my bike (I was actually pulled over recently with lights and siren for running a stop sign at 11:00 at night with no cars in sight on the streets) and am unable to produce ID.......then I DESERVE to go to jail! :p

Man, that's hilarious! That some people would actually think it's a GOOD thing to live in a "Gestapo-like" situation just blows me away! What really is scary is that many of those people will vote for "Dubya" next election! :eek:

EDIT: Asking for ID or detaining a person until it's verified that the person isn't who they are looking for (or arresting him if he is) is entirely understandable but being thrown in jail just for not producing ID (if you're not guilty of any crimes) is NOT.

[SanSoo Student]

They won't throw you in jail usually (they can though, if there is an accident or you're drunk), my friend rear ended a car on his way out of a parking lot. He was doing a quick food-stop, had no wallet, just cash. Cops came and impounded his car for 30 days, he paid a fine and thats it. Usually if you are pulled over and have no ID, if you memorize your Driver's License number, you can get by.

[cerebus]

Don't own a car, so I don't have a driver's license. Also, whether or not they arrest you depends on who they are and how they're feeling at the time. I was a cop (Army cop) for 4 years and worked with many partners who were just LOOKING for a reason to **** with people (one of the reasons I didn't re-enlist). Many of these guys went on to become civilian cops after they left the Army.

[Merryprankster]

MLK said that peaceful/non-violent protest shows the highest repsect for law. So, if I protest having to show my ID to an LEO who is abusing the fact that they have a badge and gun, I should go to jail according to Red. I could be minding my own business, you know in the pursuit of life, liberty and happiness, and Johnny Law decides to mess with me because he can. This doesn't sound like the America I remember. Like Rayfield said, your rights to privacy disappear one by one...

Shadow, you know I love you, right? So don't take the below personally

I would say it sounds EXACTLY like the America you remember. MLK and his fellow peaceful/non-violent protesters DID go to jail, precisely because they were breaking the law. And if you refuse to give ID, and that's the law, you should too. If you believe the law is unjust, you can fight it in the court system or lobby for a change in the legistlature.

My point is that things are no worse than they ever were...and generally are far far better. This idea that our civil rights are being eroded is a fallacy perpetrated strictly by people who disagree with a specific decision.

For instance - take gun control. Most - but not all - of the true gun nuts are also die hard right wingers in the U.S. political spectrum. At least the ones that aren't militia members!

It's an erosion of their civil rights if they can't carry a fully automatic weapon around.

You'll almost never hear these fellows complain about, say, what's going on in Guantanamo right now, with people being detained without trial indefinitely, no representation, military tribunals as the set up for administering justice, etc.

Flip it and you've got the die-hard left wing perspective in the U.S. political spectrum. They've few problems with gun control, but are screaming mad about Guantanamo!

The truth is that our institutions do a pretty **** fine job of keeping things in balance regarding our rights and liberties.

BTW, for those of you using the ID check thing as an opportunity to have a foaming at the mouth fit about the steady erosion of our rights, while engaging in sweat-drenched, hand wringing drama about how you fear for the future of our soon to be fascist state, I might point you to the recent news. The Supreme Court - you know, the body of slavering demons that took your civil liberties away by saying that 4th and 5th amendment rights don't apply to an ID request - recently reaffirmed that our constitution applies to persons in U.S. custody by ruling that the current structure of things in Guantanamo re: the detainees is unconstitutional and must be brought in line with our normal justice guidelines.

Don't worry, somebody will be there with a defibrilator soon.

[Shadowboxer]

>>So don't take the below personally

No sweat, I don't...

Tell me about the LEO's back in MLK's day. Do you think he and his followers should have been jailed? Would you have jailed them?

>>And if you refuse to give ID, and that's the law, you should too

We'll just agree to disagree. What if I lost it/changed clothes without grabbing it/etc...should I still get locked up? Can I just tell you my ID number instead?

It just sounds to 1984ish these days (all we need is one more war, oh wait , drugs, Iraq and terrorism, there we go) especially with the Patriot Act and Homeland Security,etc. Refusing to ID yourself gets you locked up just doesn't seem right. And I'll ask you a question nobody has answered: Where do you think the framers of the Constitution would stand on this issue of the "right" to not ID yourself or going to jail. And another question since you are a knowledgeable guy: The framers didn't spell out all of our rights believeing the"rest" to be understood, correct? Am I making sense? and is that correct?

FWIW, I don't really have a problem presenting ID when it's requested, unless there is attitude to go with it. I've done so many times- the price of living in a college town. I just don't think it should be a law that can get you locked up.

[Merryprankster]

Tell me about the LEO's back in MLK's day. Do you think he and his followers should have been jailed? Would you have jailed them?

Well, the LEO's jailed them. They also turned firehoses on protestors.

Do I think they should have been jailed. From a purely legal perspective, yes. From a moral perspective, no.

Would *I* personally have jailed them? I would like to think that I would not. Unfortunately, I also have very real experience with how a call to carry out your duty can conflict sometimes with your personal beliefs. Knowing me, something of this magnitude, I'm pretty sure I wouldn't. But there are many people who WOULD have, not because they agreed, but because they find their sense of duty the higher moral calling. Who is correct, in general? I don't think that's a question with an answer.

I also have a set of sensibilities that were developed from 1976 onwards. I might have felt quite differently if they were from another time.


Refusing to ID yourself gets you locked up just doesn't seem right.

I would tend to agree. A fine and a misdemeanor charge without jail time seems more appropriate. The punishment DOES need to fit the crime, another of our judicial traditions. You could appeal on those grounds - which are 8th amendment issues that haven't been decided yet.


Where do you think the framers of the Constitution would stand on this issue of the "right" to not ID yourself or going to jail.

Honestly, this would depend entirely on which framer you asked. I personally expect that many of them would likely have had you thrown in the stockade. The Constitution outlines principles. Judicial interpretation of those principles clarifies what exactly that means for LEO's, and that's how the rubber meets the road...A law or concept must not be void for vagueness.



The framers didn't spell out all of our rights believeing the"rest" to be understood, correct? Am I making sense? and is that correct?

Wow. Big question. The 9th amendment specifically states that enumeration of rights to the people doesn't mean that THOSE are the only rights you have. The 10th states that powers not delegated to the U.S. are reserved to the states or people.

So in a sense, they did exactly what you suggested they didn't do, if I'm reading you correctly. But I think that it would be more proper to suggest that they realized they didn't have all the answers. They knew what they didn't know. So instead of making a hard and fast judgment, they left the principles in place and let the people, through the processes of government, sort all the details out.

There's plenty of judicial wiggle room. The 10th doesn't say powers not SPECIFICALLY delegated... I suspect that would seriously change the meaning.

Words mean things. Semantics, therefore, matter...

Ok, I'm rambling now.

[cerebus]

I'm still wondering where this leaves someone who doesn't have ID. I'm not legally required to obtain a license (no car) or a state ID (I don't get carded anymore, look too old). I'm not travelling abroad anytime soon, so I don't need a passport. I do most of my banking over the internet or through ATMs. I don't show ID when I'm ordered to do so (no ID to show), I guess I'm just focked, eh?

[red5angel]

Can I just tell you my ID number instead?

I think that should be acceptable. No system is perfect and most policemen understand this as well.

[diego]

Originally posted by red5angel
I odn't see what the problem is here, if a policeman asks you for your id, give it to him. I've found that when someone resists giving that info out, it's because they have a reason for it ;)



true but also false

i was at a bus terminal and a pig and his cool jr partner came up to me all like let me see your id

i was already in a ****ed off mood and i was all startled just like "why"


"LET ME SEE YOUR ID"

"why?"

"LET ME SEE"

so i cut him off by talking to his jr partner

"eh what's happenning what you guys upto"

jr speaks- "oh we got a call uno, and you kinda fit the description"

me to the fat sr pig "see that's all you had to say" then i handed my id to the jr cop and completely treated the sr like a piece of **** by not paying attention to him and everytime he would say something i just replied to the jr and left sr there looking like the fat geeky pig who used to get they f'n asskicked in highschool acting all tough now with a badge and a gun that he is

so yeah you prolly got something to hide if you refuse but some peeps are *******s that shouldn't be anywhere near a position of authority and if the jr wasn't there the situation could have gotten worse coming up to me all rude and **** like i'm a common criminal and you just some f'n chump-type i used to beat on when i was sorta crimy :)

i was sick and just had an argument and it was laundry day so i had my cheap clothes on and the guy thought i was a crook or atleast fit a description so they say...prolly just wanted to feel me up orsomething!!?