? about movement and power

[troy fuller]

Hello,

I've heard some say in their wing chun, movement and power begins with the hips/waist. Others say movement begins with lower legs. Could some of you discuss the principles behind both methods? Comparisons, pros and cons of each. I'd like to learn more about this from some with more knowledge and experience of each school of thought (RR, Jim R, Joy etc...)
Thanks.

Troy

[Yaksha]

The more muscular joints you have moving at once, the more power you can generate.

I'd say that the greatest amount power comes from the hips and legs because those are your strongest muscle groups.

[couch]

Originally posted by Yaksha
The more muscular joints you have moving at once, the more power you can generate.

I'd say that the greatest amount power comes from the hips and legs because those are your strongest muscle groups.

Perfectly said. The legs move, turning your centre a little, then the shoulder, elbow and finally the wrist. There is a lot of small wrist movements in the forms and the art. It's like a whip.

I concur. :)

Couch

[yuanfen]

Troy F(? Not SteveF? From T town?).
I tried to email via list but it didnt work.
Feel free to email if necessary.
On power-
You will get many different opinions I am sure.
Some comments-
Agree with some things that Yaksha and Couch said.
But details make differences.
There are different kinds of power-each with different mechanics.
Long power, short power, pushing power, exploding power,
power when you can use your whole body, power when part of your body is restrained, power when you are vertical, power when you are horizontal, borrowed power, power when turning, stepping and both... and many more.

Wing Chun itself is a study of timed power-right power, at the right time at the right place.
Application can be different from development.

Proper stance is important, proper chor ma-from chum kiu is important.

For development- and start up--- cooperation and coordination of the knees are very important.

A long subject.

Joy

[Ultimatewingchun]

And most of all...power is generated to it's maximum potential through the proper use of thought, desire, and will...to be mainifested through proper visualization, breathing and exhalation at the timely moment.

[IRONMONK]

anyone use the spine to generate power?

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by Yaksha
The more muscular joints you have moving at once, the more power you can generate.

I'd say that the greatest amount power comes from the hips and legs because those are your strongest muscle groups.

Im no wingchun legend , but I'd say it's more about your core. It plays in nearly every ma sequence you execute, like when you throw a punch, if you can put your torso into it, you'll have more power. same as a good roundhouse etc, if you can work in some core strength, your more solid on the come down and again , you have more power. of course the first part of your statement is true, but I think a person shift their focus, just a little..

[troy fuller]

Joy,

Yeah it's Steve here. Troy is my middle name and the name I use on the internet. Don't ask me why.

Anyway, thanks to all for the answers. My question in part was in reference to Jim R's Emei/ Omei thread. No so much the discussion of wing chun origins but more about "twisting" or "coiling" power. I started a different thread to maybe get information in more laymens terms. I should have been more specific.

[Jim Roselando]

Hello,


There are more than one way to skin the cat! hehe

I use the waist/spine as well as combine the legs (other stuff) to add extra beef to it. The below writing comes from HS as I think its a good way to describe the difference;


You either Stretch and Hit or Compress and Hit!


The stretch and hit guys use the waist/spine and the compress and hit guys use the legs. This is very general so dont shoot me. We all use a lot more than that but what I just wrote was just the base source.


One way to look at it is like this!


If the WC fists are arrows then what is the bow? How does a bow release the arrow? Dung Tao/Ting Yiu! If these two are in its proper alignment then the spine will be elongated (two directional pull) creating the Bow!


Yet! Both work!


Regards,

[troy fuller]

Jim,

I think I understand compress and hit, but could you explain "stretch and hit" with more detail? Thank you

[yuanfen]

Troy- I thought I knew. Lance remembers you---says that you used to play the guitar. You remember him from his competitive
wrestling days and football too.
Number 2 son will be going your way for tribal festivities next month- wish I could go with him but can't. Duties beckon- caring for a very elderly mother.I could show ina couple of hours much of the implications invoved in this discussion.

Joint expansion is an important aspect of WC IMO. Taiji is different in stancing-parallel legs in the standing stake. But both taiji and atleast some wing chun involves two way stretching-
you sink downwards in ygkym but your spinal column is as though you are hanging from a string.It takes time to learn it well-
part of the reason for the discipline of the ygkym.
You are not pressing or compressing as in the military press.
Two different routes in power development.At least two quite different roots of power. Both have their place.

On the spiralling/coiling--- without seeing people I cant tell from the net exactly who is doing what- conclusively. In good wc- kung fu takes time--- you first learn a little bit of the coiling in the first section of slt- the tan sao goes forward byour elbow is spiralling the energy and the bones involved. Eventually- you develop per Hendrik's terminology- the principles of the snake for the whole body- after you learned the standing principles of the crane.

WC threw out much of animal terminology but understanding
the vestiges and where we came from in wc evolution- helps.

Water coils in its way through a hose or pipe. You have to adjust
to fill a bottle from the tap so that the water doesnt splash out.
A well thrown football spirals on its way. So does a rifle bullet on its way to the mark.

Old time kung fu masters knew many things- discovering them experimentally and by feeling- without dealing with the terminology of todays applied physics. It takes longer to get from physics to feeling.
The gaps between those two different ways of knowing-feeling and mechanics is closing in some areas of knowledge.
But traditional kung fu still has its edge in understanding aspects of martial motion. Sorry, if I write a bit densely in avoiding oversimplifications. Reading should take effort too.

Joy

PS. My unfinished new website is at <www.tempewingchun.com>
and my wing chun email address is<joy.chaudhuri@tempewingchun.com> Note- the beatings will continue for spammers. No body part or functional enhancements needed. Some marketing idiots thinking that joy is a girl want to enhance the wrong places:-

[CFT]

Joy,

Really nice post. I'm becoming more aware of the spiralling nature of the tan sau in SNT when I perform it solo, but when using tan sau in a two-man drill I have problems getting the twist in.

The twist gives hardness/tension to the forearm, but it is not a forced tension. I'm probably not making much sense here - I only know a bit of the story.

BTW, you shouldn't post your full email address like that. It can get harvested by spam-bots. One of the methods of disclosing your address in forums like this is to use the following:

joy dot chaudhuri at tempewingchun dot com

A bit clumsy, but real people will be able to decipher it.

[yuanfen]

CFT and Crimsonking-thanks much.

Egads- about spelling my whole email out. Not again. Thx much CFT for the heads up- am an idiot when it comes to the net.Wont do that again.

[troy fuller]

Joy,

Yeah, I remember Lance from high school. He was a great guy in character and size. He was definately the biggest guy in our school.

Your explanation of two way stretching was good, but I have a question. If you were trying to explain this to a new student, how would you do it? For instance; the student is sunk in ygkym and you make corrections and say "the spinal column is as though you are hanging from a string." How would you convey this idea in physical movement to the student. The student might try to do this by lifting shoulders or stretching neck up or chest out, which is obviously incorrect. So how would you explain this to the wing chun novice? I've been doing wing chun for about 5 years now with two different schools. Sometimes when I read other posts I feel there are certain subtleties I may be missing in my training. Then again, maybe not. Maybe the physical aspects are there just not the same terminology.

Troy

[yuanfen]

Notes on Troy's post- Troy
Joy,

Yeah, I remember Lance from high school. He was a great guy in character and size. He was definately the biggest guy in our school.
(((Before that he had a year of wing chun together with my sons with Augustine Fong sifu in Tucson.. That helped his hands for football and wrestling...before he left here to line up against Troy Aikman and the Hneryetta Mudhens. In the Putnam City state regional wrestling he had the fastest take down and pin-- in 20 secs.He is rebuilding his cardiovascular foundations and relearning some wing chun-after a spell of walking away from fitness.Immensely strong- without any pumping iron experience-his first time in Okmulgee he benchpressed 400 pounds.He still has the wing chun straight punch and his fast grappling moves.
Apparently you were skinny and tall in HS?))

Your explanation of two way stretching was good, but I have a question. If you were trying to explain this to a new student, how would you do it? For instance; the student is sunk in ygkym and you make corrections and say "the spinal column is as though you are hanging from a string." How would you convey this idea in physical movement to the student.

(( VBG. Years of experience doing just that in teaching. To your hypothetical case-- I would first check on his foot ankle and knee positions. Pronation-right amount in ygkym.Then move up to make sure his midsection is correct-the kwa, the hips and the tail. Making sure that the lower back is straight- I touch people and see. I ask them to sink their knees without tightening up. Then pull them up by their hair a bit. If they are hairless I pull them up by the side of the head---making sure that they do not raise their shoulders. I tuck in their chin a bit for alignment. Then you check their stance from the front and back to check for stability. Lots of adjustments in the details of slt. The luck of exposure to good teaching and experience. I dont just explain-it is hands on correction imvolved.
That is how I learned too.
Hope this helps. I am sure there are different ways to skin that cat.))

[Jim Roselando]

Hello,


Just one thing to add to this!


While both work and in the hands of skilled people are effective there is indeed a difference in the energy these produce.

The waist/spine will produce a light vibrating fa jing and the other method will produce a light cleaving power.

Dont shoot me for this post!


Regards,

[troy fuller]

Joy,

Yes, I was a skinny kid about 5'11". Those were the days.

Thanks for your helpful explanation.

Troy