Footwork

[Tiger_SS]

My sifu is a long time student of GM William Cheung, he ran GM's Australian training for many years. In GM's teachings we have always been taught to pick our feet up and put them back down when changing stance. Some forms of WC I have noticed students are taught to slide their feet. From what I have noticed it seems to be the Hong Kong lineage that slide their feet.
The thing that concerns me about sliding feet on the ground is that the terrain in which you may be in it may be difficult to slide your feet over things like rocks or sticks. Fights will not always happen on a neat floor of your training centre.
Can anyone advise me of the pros , cons and oppinions of both methods?

[yuanfen]

I don't do TWC- best for the TWC folks to explain William Cheung's
reasoning on this issue.

From one of several possible WC perspectives---there are many stances and motions in WC--- after getting ygkym down well...moving to chor ma (chum kiu turning), biu ma-forward, huen ma (biu gee- circles).

One must distinguish between development-training the fundamentals and applying them. The fundamentals in WC teach you a lot about centering, sinking and not bouncing too early- so you understand your structure and relationship to the ground.
A flat surface allows one to focus on principles of structure and motion.

Once learned suficiently- you feel/sense/see the surface and adjust accordingly- going over or around obstructions- lifting your feet on a San Diego beach, jumping on a boulder, climbing up and down stairs.

The learned lessons of rooting and balancing and moving- minimizes the chance of slipping and falling when someone charges into you(generic you).

[Ultimatewingchun]

Tiger-ss:

You wrote...

."From what I have noticed it seems to be the Hong Kong lineage that slide their feet.

The thing that concerns me about sliding feet on the ground is that the terrain in which you may be in it may be difficult to slide your feet over things like rocks or sticks.

Fights will not always happen on a neat floor of your training centre.

Can anyone advise me of the pros , cons and oppinions of both methods?

I'm with William Cheung for almost 21 years now...and with Moy Yat for 8 years before that. So I've done both methods...

Picking up the feet before moving is absolutely essential, IMO, for the very reason you already gave: the terrain cannot be counted on to be perfectly smooth.

And by the way...I know Dana Wong since August, 1983...when he still lived in Boston.

[Tiger_SS]

And by the way...I know Dana Wong since August, 1983...when he still lived in Boston.

Sifu mentioned the boston training centre just last friday. Its winter here at the moment. He was telling us the place where he trained was so cold that sometimes everyone would just go to the noodle shop around the corner.

I will send sifu this link.

[macaulay]

I agree with Victor (UltimateWC) about picking up the feet, as I train under the Cheung lineage. Apart from dogma though, it makes sense to me to pick up my feet. In combat if I aim to pick them up, the worst they will do is slide along. I am sure the sliding method works well for those who use it.

I think the essential point is just not to have dead legs, IMHO.

[Vyvial]

i believe that Joy said it but i will say also that there is a very big difference between training and application.

[OdderMensch]

I'll admit to slideing my rear foot, when preforming the toe ma step. Why? Becuase i have been taught to move my body wieght as a single unit useing the adduction between my knees to drag myself forward. Keeping the rear foot on the ground prevent my wieght from comiung onto that front foot. If anyone can explain to me how you can lift that foot off the ground and not place your wieght forward, I'd be grateful.

As for rocks, stick and other ground issues, I've never had a problem, and i've practiced my steppiong on everthing my feet have stepped on. Grass, dirt, forested areas, Ice, everythnig but boulder to boulder.

I think it is important to note that toe ma (or dragging step) is not meant to cover more tha 6-12 inchs of ground. You should not toe ma around, but into the opponent, while hitting, in contact if possible.

Ultimately, you footwork is there to suport your strikes. While there is a place for shifting the wieght to the forward foot, mostly i see one foot planted, and one foot moveing.

[Yaksha]

why not boulder to boulder?

[duende]

Personally I don't think sliding your feet is very realistic. It's like trying to fight while doing the moonwalk.

JUST KIDDING!!!!

Hey if you are convinced it works for you fine.

In HFY we also instruct our students to lift there feet. We also tell them to land softly so that they don't over-commit to a landing, and can keep proper balance while one foot is up in the air.

But then again we also tell our students to keep a 50/50 weight dispursion.

[Yaksha]

Training barefoot on sharp rocks or coarse pavement will teach you to lift your feet.

[duende]

Yaksha,

Obviously you are not aware of iron sole conditioning...

Ha!

[Yaksha]

Originally posted by duende
Yaksha,

Obviously you are not aware of iron sole conditioning...

Ha!

:rolleyes:

[duende]

Can't you take a joke?? Albeit a rather silly one...

[KingMonkey]

i believe that Joy said it but i will say also that there is a very big difference between training and application.This was one of the rationales my old instructor used to use and part of the reason I sought out a better instructor.
When the **** hits the fan you'll move the way you move in training. That, after all, is one of the main goals of MA training, to reinforce through repetition preferred body mechanics so that you do it without thinking.

[yuanfen]

King Monkey sez:-
This was one of the rationales my old instructor used to use and part of the reason I sought out a better instructor.
When the **** hits the fan you'll move the way you move in training.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ok- you are entitled to your opinion but you missed the point
and I dont think that you understand the rationale.

When you are in very close quarters and you want to take a quick micro step- lifting your feet can be dangerous to your health.

Wing chun training begins with close quarters- whereas many systems begin further away and then try to figure out how to "close the gap". There is lots of wing chun footwork where(gasp) the foot is lifted.

Jumping to conclusions based on partial sampling of wing chun
is a frequent problem specially among critics of the art.

In boxing rope skipping is training prelude to footwork but no sensible boxer takes a skipping rope into the ring or a speed bag.
You fight as you train can be an oversimplified cliche in the communication of some critiques.

I am glad that you found an instructor you are/were satisfied with.

[Vyvial]

King Monkey sez:-
This was one of the rationales my old instructor used to use and part of the reason I sought out a better instructor.
When the **** hits the fan you'll move the way you move in training.
--------------------------------------------------------

When the **** hits the fan you'll move the way your Kung Fu tells you. Example: i train in my stance, when i spar i don't take a stance because however i happen to be standing is my stance. I spent the hours and over a decade standing in Yee Ji Kim Yeung Mah so that i always have a horse, when i walk it's with a horse, when i stand it's with a horse, i don't need to drop into Yee Ji Kim Yeung Mah and point my toes in order to use my kung fu.
If i needed to fall into my stance in order to do wing chun then that is just one more thing to go wrong in a real fight.

Wing Chun is just a vehicle to give me kung fu, i don't fight with WC... WC gives me kung fu and allows by body to react to any situation, looking at it any other way just weakens the system and sets limits to the amount of kung fu you can have.

Dragging my feet in back horse while floor walking trains my horse to be very strong while keeping the hips engaged it doesn't tell me how to walk or step and by not doing it you are missing the whole point, it's a conditioning drill, by not doing it you are setting limits.

If you are setting those same conditions then why even train Biu Je? It's full of "mistakes"... and I guess Yip Man had no idea what he was doing either when he passed down those drills, watch the chum kiu video of him.... maybe his techniques just are not modern enough, some one always has to have their own new version of the kung fu in order to make a name for themselves...

this rant is not directed at King Monkey just something on my mind while reading all this.

[Ernie]

Man this thread and the views are so refreshing,
First I would like to comment on joy’s post


[[[[Once learned sufficiently- you feel/sense/see the surface and adjust accordingly]]

Joy your entire post kicked butt, what I drew from it was what I have always suspected and trained. The stances and forms and so on are about capturing the essence of a feeling.
They give us these postures and ideas to help us simulate and internalize the feeling of being in contact with the ground. Once we have this feeling, we can plug in anytime any were, with in reason. To argue about stances and toes in a training system is well, silly
As long as that person can tap into the ground when they need it, and disengage when they need to. A live organic base that relates to you opponent or situation.

Some thing has always tripped me out is how people argue over frozen moments in time ‘’ stances or shapes ‘’ when there real essence is in there transition. I always just figured since CMA were often passed down by way of static postures, which the designers decided the best position to simulate the connection with the idea, concept or feeling they were handing down.

A lot of the transitional naturalness was lost.

People become lost and enamored by insignificant details in static postures



Vyvial

[[[If I needed to fall into my stance in order to do wing Chun then that is just one more thing to go wrong in a real fight.

Wing Chun is just a vehicle to give me kung fu, I don't fight with WC.]]]


Beautifully put, so we can fight over what color and tread design the tire has or we can just become very skilled at making it roll


Thanks for a breath of fresh air gentleman


:D

[old jong]

There are no "static postures" in Wing Chun!...Everythings in Wing Chun is a "motion"
A bong sau is not the finished arm position,it is the total motion from beginning to end.A tan,a fook,a punch!...Are all the total amount of time and space necessary for their completion.
Even YGKYM is not static.It is a matter of finding the center and is a matter of constant minute adjustments.There can't be development in something "static"

I hope this doesn't ruin your "fresh air"!...;)

[yuanfen]

Ernie sez:Joy your entire post kicked butt, what I drew from it was what I have always suspected and trained. The stances and forms and so on are about capturing the essence of a feeling.
----------------------------------------------------------
Thanks Ernie. A common problem---among non wng chunners and some wing chunners....

wing chun is not a robotic system and it does not create
cookie cutters. A good martial artist learns how to adapt.

Good wing chun folks are human-- they can move away, run, dance, jump if needed- but good wing chun training gives them
many natural hidden weapons and a headstart on solutions to problems that they as individuals can face. The art does not do anyone's fighting.... any more than a heavy bag will doa boxer's work.

joy

[Vyvial]

"There are no "static postures" in Wing Chun!...Everythings in Wing Chun is a "motion"
"

Nicely put, but of course by that rationale....

the wc posture is in motion. so Yee Ji Kim Yeung Mah is always moving and really represents any "footwork" using a wc shape? maybe, maybe?

I like to tell my students that their opponent should never see their jong ma or jearn sau. All that should be seen is movement.

WC doesn't teach you how to fight, it only gives you an advantage. A punch is a punch and a kick is a kick the only difference is the path you take to get there.

[Ernie]

There are no "static postures" in Wing Chun!...Everythings in Wing Chun is a "motion"


as much as i hear that i always use a little test when i meet new wing chun friends or when they come to visit

i tell them i'm going to fire off a jab and i would like for you to intercept it with a pak or what ever

i do it slow not i'll intent

and just about every person i have done this with no matter the lineage always pauses to assume there stance [ static posture ]

only one or two have just fired from there natural position with out telegraphed motion


these same people will tell me how they are free and formless
so i walk away thinking hmmmmmm


i made it a point to never have that curse , that need for a preset posture or position


so that's why i liked to read these post so much , i was like cool i'm not the only one ha ha ha
i

[Matrix]

Originally posted by Ernie
To argue about stances and toes in a training system is well, silly.
As long as that person can tap into the ground when they need it, and disengage when they need to. A live organic base that relates to you opponent or situation.

Some thing has always tripped me out is how people argue over frozen moments in time ‘’ stances or shapes ‘’ when there real essence is in there transition. I always just figured since CMA were often passed down by way of static postures, which the designers decided the best position to simulate the connection with the idea, concept or feeling they were handing down.

A lot of the transitional naturalness was lost.

People become lost and enamored by insignificant details in static postures Ernie, Is that you??? ;) Just kidding.
You've really put these ideas together so eloquently.
You and Joy really seem to flowing with this topic. I love it.
This is the type of thread that makes it worth coming to this forum. Very nice indeed.

Peace,
Bill

P.S. I must also acknowledge the contributions of Vyvial and Old Jong. :cool:

[Ernie]

Ernie, Is that you??? Just kidding.
You've really put these ideas together so eloquently.
You and Joy really seem to flowing with this topic. I love it.
This is the type of thread that makes it worth coming to this forum. Very nice indeed.

Peace,
Bill



ha ha yep it's me

my wing chun well runs deep , i just don't normally talk about the skin [ technique ]

i look for the soul of the application , so i avoid technique threads ,

this thread has soul , joy and Vyvial and Old Jong are speaking on the life of an action

talking about static posture and form is the death or the end of a action

often we study the remains or the corpse of something to understand how it lived

i know that as well

but i prefer to point my eyes ahead and see the motion and how it fits in today . ;)

sihing
this "WING CHUN" forum is sounding more and more like a JKD forum on a daily basis, IMO....


no it's finally sounding like a wing chun forum

:D

but if it will make you feel better i can talk about pia or abd , timing half beats , hip fakes , hu bud , distructions

ha ha ha

[couch]

This is now a pure WING CHUN forum!

Wing Chun is not to be passed down to make carbon copies of your Sifu. It is not supposed to be "karate-sized" into just a bunch of techniques. It is an expression of yourself. Even my Sifu is constantly learning because we are. When we are attacked, we stand like we would be standing waiting for the bus, or something. I believe that a lot street confrontations won't give you the time to step back into a neutral stance and stick your arms out. "Be water, my friend." (I just had to!)

IMO, as long as you are following the Kuen Kuits, then it can only be true Wing Chun - an expression of yourself.

If anyone gets a chance to read Moy Yat's Kung-Fu-Life article, I strongly suggest it. http://www.moyyat.net/brice/moyyatnet.nsf/852ae86c491401f086256d770077ae3d/1f1d31ae09aebd3e86256e6d00729efe?OpenDocument

It echos what I believe.

Take Care,
Couch

[Tiger_SS]

Thank-you all for your replys there has been much food for thought.
What about when changing from a right neutral stance to a left neutral stance?
I have been tauaght to pick feet up slightly and put them back down again when changing. But I see teachings of Augustine Fong and they seem to pivot on their heels. Im a little confused by this method and it looks pretty strange to me. When it is used properly it is very fast, it just seems strange how it puts the centre of weight further to the back when I try it.
Is any-one familiar with what I am talking about? Seen it? Train it ? Understand it and how to do it properly to keep the weight set properly?

[couch]

Originally posted by Tiger_SS
Thank-you all for your replys there has been much food for thought.
What about when changing from a right neutral stance to a left neutral stance?
I have been tauaght to pick feet up slightly and put them back down again when changing. But I see teachings of Augustine Fong and they seem to pivot on their heels. Im a little confused by this method and it looks pretty strange to me. When it is used properly it is very fast, it just seems strange how it puts the centre of weight further to the back when I try it.
Is any-one familiar with what I am talking about? Seen it? Train it ? Understand it and how to do it properly to keep the weight set properly?

I know what you're talking about and it was strange for me in the beginning, but it's all about practise. :)

The pivot or shift that you're talking about is done on the heels to keep the centre line on the...um...centre. Your heels are connected to your ankles...obviously, the ball of your foot isn't. The key so that you're not off balance is the pelvic tilt that is in your Neutral stance. It's like a "lock."

As I'm sure you've seen in the Chum Kiu with the shift - in practise, you don't have to shift all the time or so "far". Shifting just changes your centre, as you try to face your opponents centre. My Sifu says not to worry too much about weight placement. I know in LT/Emin's WC, I was told to have 100% weight on the back leg...but I agree with my Sifu in that you should just do what feels right. The locking of the hips is very important. It's just like someone saying: "You're pak sao is here. Always here." Depending on different situations, you might catch a punch with a pak really close...or a little bit away from the shoulder. Saying things like "you must" makes Wing Chun like karate. Blindly following someone else technique for technique.

I've done both the picking up of the feet and the shifting you talk about. My Sifu recommends that we step when being Lap'd (so to speak)...you can step, but you shouldn't break structure. So there is still stepping in the "shifting system."

Anyways...some of my response was opinion, but I hope it helped.

Thanks,
Couch

[Matrix]

Originally posted by Ernie
my wing chun well runs deep , i just don't normally talk about the skin [ technique ] I can see that. May I say that it looks good on you. :)


i look for the soul of the application , so i avoid technique threads , this thread has soul , joy and Vyvial and Old Jong are speaking on the life of an action. talking about static posture and form is the death or the end of a action Yes, I absolutely agree. It's a nice way to put it, IMHO. That's why it seems to resonate so well with me. Technique threads have some merit, but that merit often seems to die a quick death since it lacks the "soul" that you've already identified.


but if it will make you feel better i can talk about pia or abd , timing half beats , hip fakes , hu bud , distructions
ha ha ha It's all good. I'm open to it.

Bill

[anerlich]

this "WING CHUN" forum is sounding more and more like a JKD forum on a daily basis, IMO....

No chance. There's still more than enough lineage based arguments and historical bickering to make it unmistakably a WC forum.

There are some good JKD forums out there, like that on the Underground, that this one could do worse than to emulate, uh, IMO ....

[KenWingJitsu]

LOL @ this topic.

Really..LOL!.

The last thing to be concerened with when someone is trying to knock your block off is whether or not you are correctly mimicing some "sifus" unproven theory. What are your feet doing? How about what is your timing doing? what is your evasiveness doing? Can you react instinctively. If you can, "sliding" or "stepping" become sa non-issue.

:rolleyes:

[Ernie]

Dhira
[[[LOL @ this topic.

Really..LOL!.

The last thing to be concerened with when someone is trying to knock your block off is whether or not you are correctly mimicing some "sifus" unproven theory. What are your feet doing? How about what is your timing doing? what is your evasiveness doing? Can you react instinctively. If you can, "sliding" or "stepping" become sa non-issue.]]]




shhhh did you guys hear that , wait ........... there it goes again [ smack] the sound of the rigid rod of reality



:cool

[OdderMensch]

Originally posted by KenWingJitsu
LOL @ this topic.

Really..LOL!.

The last thing to be concerened with when someone is trying to knock your block off is whether or not you are correctly mimicing some "sifus" unproven theory. What are your feet doing? How about what is your timing doing? what is your evasiveness doing? Can you react instinctively. If you can, "sliding" or "stepping" become sa non-issue.

:rolleyes:

Off course the last thing you want to be worrying about in a fight is "am I doing this right" Hell if you've got time to think that, it not much of a fight now is it? But thats exactly why you have to train your self right.

Personally, one of the few things that worked fairly well right of the bat when I begain sparring was my footwork. It allows me to stay stable while in motion and links itself well with my upper body to support my hands. It also permits me to kick when needed, and provides the basis for my anti-grappleing and ground fighting.

I have seen people set up a WC guard to spar (and no, i would not settle into my stance and place my guard up before I fought someone) and then proced to mimic a boxers suffle. I dissagree with that aprouch because i feel WC footwork is designed (by people whom knew WAY more about fighting than I do) to work with WC hands.

In my school, we step at times and we slide at times, but we approach neither with unreasoned dogma nor slavish clinging to past glory. WC works if done correctly and it can be done corectly if trained properly.

[Matrix]

Originally posted by KenWingJitsu
LOL @ this topic....The last thing to be concerened with when someone is trying to knock your block off is whether or not you are correctly mimicing some "sifus" unproven theory. :rolleyes:
Dhira,
This is true. You should not be worrying about this when you're under a pressure packed situation. At that point I doubt you will be thinking about your feet, your timing, or your evasiveness. You will just "do" what you have trained to do in the time leading up to that moment - It's not a time for reflection. If you have to think about any of these issues in the heat of the moment you're probably in for some trouble. So until then, now is a good time to work through these issues.

The original question is a good one - "I've been taught this way, but I've seen others do it another way, why?" I think it shows that the questioner is open minded and wants to really understand some of the subtlies of footwork. It may be funny for someone with your skill and experience. Some of us mere mortals need a little more help.

Bill