Robert W Smith's shaolin text: Authentic?

[_William_]

Has anyone read "Secrets of Shaolin Temple Boxing" by Robert W Smith?

RW Smith claims that it is a shaolin text written anonymously by someone in mainland china. He says someone donated the text to him.

The book contains descriptions of Yijinjing, something called "Eighteen Exercises" (of which there are only 12 listed...?), and other stuff.

The reason I am somewhat suspicous of this book is the poetry near the end of the book. It rhymes in English. This seems a little too convenient to me, how classical chinese translated into english form perfect rhyming couplets? An example is "Like a dragon move here or there / To win or lose is a moments affair".

There are lots of these weird rhyming poems. Translated chinese doesnt rhyme in english.

Anyways, have you guys read this book and have any comments about it? Personally I think its probably a fake.

[mantis108]

I haven't read that book. But from the line that you provided, it seems to be from a sonnet of Shaolin. There are 2 sonnets of 8 lines each.

"Like a dragon move here or there / To win or lose is a moments affair".

This is the last 2 lines of the "Advance and Retreat Sonnet of Shaolin." The translation doesn't vividly give the meaning but it does convey the main message.

I would translate it according to the Chinese text as "Changes (movement) like a dragon, Slow or quick (timing) separates the victory (from) defeat."

You are right about not rhyming. If you could provide the rest, then we can verify this easily. The other sonnet is "Closing and Avoiding."

These sonnets aren't exactly secrets. They have been around in Chinese MA community for awhile. But then it's great that someone translated them.

Mantis108

[The Willow Sword]

of the hairy chewbacca grandmaster?:eek:



heheheh im sorry i had to do it.

PEACE,,,TWS

[_William_]

Here it is, it says it is from the martial traditions of Szechwan and Kweichow, but it gives no name.



"Advance with the wind's speed
Withdraw after the violent deed.
Go ahead with body sidelong,
Don't mind a little pushing on.
Shoot a power palm while exhaling,
For effectiveness a shout entailing.
Like a dragon move here and there,
To win or lose is a moment's affair."


Another one is:



"Edging and dodging need sharp eyesight;
You must move fast to left and right;
To dodging edging owes,
From the unreal the real goes.
A mountain slide you may escape,
By wedging ahead through the gape.
Flinch not at actions furious;
To beat the great with the small is truly curious."


Here is another one, which it says is written by a monk named Pan Hui:


Ch'i goes from the navel part,
Strength centers in the palm heart;
In the substatial your strength is found.
Exhale air while making a sound.
Upward pushing is necessary;
Pressing with a horse step, primary.
Remember Attacking, Pushing, and Blowing(Exhaling),
The bones near your pulses are forcefully going


The above three poems are the ones in Robert Smith's text. I would very much appreciate it if you could verify the authenticity of these poems.

[lkfmdc]

my favorite shaoln poem begins "there once was a monk from Nantuket..."

[cerebus]

Heh, heh, heh.:D :D :D

[GeneChing]

That book was one of the first major books in English on Shaolin. I looked up the Tuttle Publishing site (http://www.tuttlepublishing.com/title.cgi?title_id=491) and they list it as (C) 1999, but that's surely a reprint/revised edition date. I can to dig up my old copy and see what the original date is, if you're really interested. Since it was so early, it's a must-have for any serious Shaolin researcher in the English language. This is because all the English speaking researchers that came after probably stumbled on this one first, and that certainly had an influence on their folowing research, myself included (although I haven't engaged that book again in years).

Is it authentic? It does fall in line with a lot of other stuff that was floating around. 'Secret' texts are such a part of CMA, and you'll find forgery in those that go back 400 years. Many of these text attribute their origins to mythic beginnings, so often the introductions and forwards are fantastic, so much so that they couldn't possibly be true. But that was just the style of writing of the day (and it perpetuates now). It doesn't detract from the content.

As for the poems rhyming, if you have a lot of skill, you can translate a poem from another language so that it still rhymes. It's very difficult from Chinese, but I'd cite the numerous translations of Dante's Inferno, which has a bit of tricky meter. That has been successfully translated, preserving the rhyme.

[rogue]

there once was a monk from Nantuket...
Who fought with his head in a bucket...

[jun_erh]

in "chinese boxing" he describes how he got the book. I think one of his teachers had befriended and helped a wayward kung fu master out of a jam with the local authorities and as a reward the guy gave him the book.

[mantis108]

The first 2 are definately Shaolin Sonnet of Advance and Retreat, and Shaolin Sonnet of Closeing and Avoiding. Although the wording in English is changed quite a bit, it still somewhat convey the message. Having said that it is depending on the source of where these are from. The Shaolin part could be an add on from schools that has affiliations with the Shaolin temple. I have seen a source that said it is from Sezchuan area. BTW, there is claim that Shaolin has a temple/branch in that area. So... one would have to be careful of the claims. Regardless, the sonnets have been floating around for a while. In our style, Grandmaster Chiu Chuk Kai who studied Taizu Men and Taiji Praying Mantis had recorded these sonnets without the titles in his manuscripts. That's the first time I knew of these sonnet. Years later, I got a book in Chinese from mainland China about supposed Omei Sanda that has the same sonnets again not title. Finally, I found it on the internet no long ago that these are named as such.

If you are interested in my translation of them, I will work on them for you later.

I have no idea of what the third peom is. Sorry.

Warm regards

Mantis108

[GeneChing]

Nice reply. I'd love to see your translation!

Hey, would anyone mind if we moved this thread down to the Shaolin forum? I think it would elicit more discussion down there and we wouldn't have to chase it to the second page as quickly as on the main forum.

[_William_]

Sorry for the late reply.

Mantis108, I would definitely appreciate a translation, and it would be extremely helpful if you could also supply the chinese characters, since I too am a chinese speaker. Do you know if the sonnets belong to any particular martial art?

Hmm... perhaps I was much too quick to dismiss Secrets of Shaolin Temple Boxing. It seems Robert Smith is a poet as well as a martial artist? :D I'll definitely read it through again tonight.

Theres still a few things that get me about the text.

For one thing, I didn't know that kung fu in China was divided into regional schools. The book lists different characteristics of the kung fu in different regions.

Also the book only lists 12 of the "18 Exercises", before Robert Smith inserts Yijinjing exercises because he says it is similar to the 18 exercises. Are the eighteen exercises the 18 lohan hands? They seem to have martial applications.

Geneching, I think moving it to the shaolin forum is a great idea.

[norther practitioner]

For one thing, I didn't know that kung fu in China was divided into regional schools. The book lists different characteristics of the kung fu in different regions.
.
That is really, really common. Look at contemp. wushu.. chang chuan and nan chuan.. northern tends to be "long" and southern "short"...

[mantis108]

Thanks. I agreed that it would be a good idea to move it over too.

Hi William,

Nice to know that you are Chinese speaking as well. I will scan in my notes later. You will have to pardon my hand writing though.

Before I post the translation, I would like to share some thoughts with you.

The regional divison is quite "common". There are a few ways to do this. One of which is using river regions. This method of division is quite helpful in establishing an evolution theory of CMA.
It helps in linking North Shaolin and Southern shaolin most effectively. Even the Hakka arts further south in the Guangdong area could be link to North Shaolin by this method. The concept of regional division would not be IMHO fraudulent.

I presume the 12 exercises could be from 18 Lohan hands (Shiba Louhan Shou) which is a set of Qigong like exercise. But I have heard that Northern Shaolin (the style) has 18 exercises or moves that have actual applications. Since I haven't read the book I can't tell which one is that.

I have come across 3 different " forms" of conditioning. They are pretty ancient. One is Shuai Jiao's 13 Taibo with 24 forms/moves, another is Wu style Taiji 24 postures Neigong, and finally Mantis' 18 Lohan and paida gong.

The Shuai Jiao one can be found on

Shuai Jiao Conditioning form (http://www.johnwang.com)

There seems to be an extremely interesting relationship between Shuai Jiao's gong form and the Wu Style Taiji Neigong form.

The 18 Lohan Gong might have a Sezchuan connection although its documentation can be found in the Shandong praying mantis community.

All 3 Gong forms have actual combat applications or strengthing the applications.

So in disney's tune: it's a small world after all. ;)

Warm regards

Mantis108

[mantis108]

Robert Smith's version:

"Advance with the wind's speed
Withdraw after the violent deed.
Go ahead with body sidelong,
Don't mind a little pushing on.
Shoot a power palm while exhaling,
For effectiveness a shout entailing.
Like a dragon move here and there,
To win or lose is a moment's affair."

My translation:

Shaolin Pugilism Advance and Retreat Sonnet:

1. Advance (with) steps swiftly like the wind.

2. Losing oppotunity the retreat should be quick.

3. Capitalize (his) lost enter from the flank.

4. Torso slightly launch forward

5. Palm (that contact) solid must immediately release (energy) *could use spit instead of release*

6. Do use vocalizing, scaring and strange tactics.

7. Changes (movement) like a dragon

8. Slow or quick (timing) separates the victory (from) defeat.

Another one is:

"Edging and dodging need sharp eyesight;
You must move fast to left and right;
To dodging edging owes,
From the unreal the real goes.
A mountain slide you may escape,
By wedging ahead through the gape.
Flinch not at actions furious;
To beat the great with the small is truly curious."

Shaolin Pugilism Closing and Avoiding Sonnet:

9. Closing and avoiding requires sharp eyes.
*dodge could be used instead of avoiding*

10. (taking) Leftside or rightside follows the oppotunity to execute.

11. Closing (oppotunity) from within avoiding

12. solidify (position) from everywhere.

13. Despite (His) conditioning surpasses me.

14. A gap opens (in his offense/defense) advance foward without stopping.

15. Thou shalt not fear the double fierceness (in his action)

16. 4 taels removes a thousand catties.

Here's the rough translation. As you would notice there is some difference in the wording and the meaning aren't quite exactly the same although it is similar in a way.

Mantis108

[mantis108]

Robert Smith's version:

"Advance with the wind's speed
Withdraw after the violent deed.
Go ahead with body sidelong,
Don't mind a little pushing on.
Shoot a power palm while exhaling,
For effectiveness a shout entailing.
Like a dragon move here and there,
To win or lose is a moment's affair."

My translation:

Shaolin Pugilism Advance and Retreat Sonnet:

1. Advance (with) steps swiftly like the wind.

2. Losing oppotunity the retreat should be quick.

3. Capitalize (his) lost enter from the flank.

4. Torso slightly launch forward

5. Palm (that contact) solid must immediately release (energy) *could use spit instead of release*

6. Do use vocalizing, scaring and strange tactics.

7. Changes (movement) like a dragon

8. Slow or quick (timing) separates the victory (from) defeat.

Another one is:

"Edging and dodging need sharp eyesight;
You must move fast to left and right;
To dodging edging owes,
From the unreal the real goes.
A mountain slide you may escape,
By wedging ahead through the gape.
Flinch not at actions furious;
To beat the great with the small is truly curious."

Shaolin Pugilism Closing and Avoiding Sonnet:

9. Closing and avoiding requires sharp eyes.
*dodge could be used instead of avoiding*

10. (taking) Leftside or rightside follows the oppotunity to execute.

11. Closing (oppotunity) from within avoiding

12. solidify (position) from everywhere.

13. Despite (His) conditioning surpasses me.

14. A gap opens (in his offense/defense) advance foward without stopping.

15. Thou shalt not fear the double fierceness (in his action)

16. 4 taels removes a thousand catties.

Here's the rough translation. As you would notice there is some difference in the wording and the meaning aren't quite exactly the same although it is similar in a way.

Mantis108

[GeneChing]

It's always fun to steal a good thread. ;)

To add to NP's comment, I'd venture to say that even in the standardized contemporary wushu forms, you can see some regional difference. It's just natural. Certain coaches emphasize certain things. And coaches in the same region are constantly competing against each other, so they're in each other's faces and each other's methods. A lot of people make this sweeping generalization about what wushu is, but as an example, most of the wushu coming out of Shaolin technically isn't sport wushu because it's not part of the compulsories. Stuff like the crazy Shaolin wushu animal forms are quite distinct from Beijing wushu. And that can be distinguised from Shandong wushu, although there's a lot of Shandong influence on Shaolin wushu left behind from when Jet Li's movies were filmed there.

OK, that had little to do with the translations. Nice work, mantis108! Perhaps this will give non-Chinese speakers some sense of the range of translations. Ever compare the translations of Sun Tzu or Lao Tse? There's a lot of them and some differ quite significantly. Realize that you're always going to get some influence from the translator, so know who your translator is and what they are about. Or learn Chinese. :cool:

[_William_]

Mantis108
Great translation, readily understandable, thanks!

Hmm... I think this is third version of yijinjing(muscle-changing classic) I have seen so far.

The first two I have seen were from a chinese language book called "Zhongguo ying-qigong" (Chinese hard qigong). The book was basically a set of writings on different hard chi kungs like iron shirt by different authors, of which their names I couldn't make out. :D It gave two versions, one that was supposed to be from shaolin, and one from a "Huang" family? Sorry if I'm mixing pinyin with other transliterations. Also there was a text attributed to Ta Mo included. I didn't read it, since my chinese skills are limited.

The three versions I've seen have big differences. The one thats shaolin is more calisthenic in nature, the other two are less so, Huang version seems to have lots of backbends, and Robert Smith's version involves only movement of the arms? Hmm... I dont have the book on chinese hard qigong with me, I want do a closer comparison. Next time I'm at the library I'll check it out.

Anyone have any thoughts on why there are apparently different sets floating around that are named Yijinjing? My uncle even knows an exercise from Yijinjing, but I have not seen it in what I've read.

[mantis108]

Sorry about the late reply. I got side tracked. Anyway, glad you enjoy the translation. It's a rough draft only. I try to keep close to the Chinese text because the imageries are important. Also I tend to guage translations of MA material with the translation's personal experience. That is to say that the translation would reflect the translator's understanding of the art historically, culturally, empirically, spiritually, etc... I believe that's the best way to help the reader to understand the art.

Some thoughts that I would like to share with you about the Yijinjing is that I would consider it a lost art. Many versions of this "secrat" text or art are made up since Qing dynasty after popular martial art ficitons. Just like many legends of Southern Shaolin. This is not to say that there is no benefit in practicing some of the these versions. But just don't think of it as magical that's all.

Warm regards

Mantis108

[GeneChing]

The first book to argue that Shaolin martial arts originated from Bodhidharma was Yijinjing buy Zimingdaoren in 1624. You read that right, those of you who understand the author's name. He was a Taoist. Prior to this book, Bodhidharma Yijinjing only existed in the Taoist schools. Taoists attributed qigong techniques to Bodhidharma as early as the Tang and are 'borrowing' Buddhist ideas as early as 200 CE. Contrary to popular beleif, Bodhidharma was not venerated as the founder of Shaolin martial arts until this time.

That's probably a lot for most Shaolin people to digest.

Anyway, the form presented in this work is consistent with the forms we see today at Songshan Shaolin. There's some slight variation, but if you look at say Deqian's (http://store.martialartsmart.net/8511.html) yijinjing (http://store.martialartsmart.net/vidshaolmusc.html), you'll see that it's essentially the same postures and methods as Zimingdaoren presented.

I actually posted aversion of this earlier but it got eaten by the black monday forum crash of 6/28/4. It's taken me a while to slog through the fractured threads and repost all this stuff.

[taichi4eva]

I haven't read this book but can somebody tell me the contents of it in detail? What is there other than the following?

- Yijinjing
- Eighteen Luohan Exercises
- Five Animals

Are weapons included?

My personal opinion of Robert W. Smith's work- his Hsing Yi, Pa Kua, and Chinese Boxing Methods- is that the books he writes are to be taken for its information, not for its instructive value, even though he strives for his work to have that purpose.

[Tainan Mantis]

Gene,
Where do you get your info on that Yi Jinjing publishing date?

Tang Hao and other less famous historians puts the earliest available copy at 1827 and considers the book fruadulent.
It is a supposed reprint of a book from 628 with a preface by Li Jing claiming that the orgin of Shaolin pugilism originated from Damo.

Since the first mention of Damo's name(correct me if I am wrong) is 500 years after his death in Song Gao Sen Chuan, many historians question his actual existance.

Furthermore, there exist very complete lists of Chinese MA books dating from ancient times which do not list Yi Jinjing.

Though they do list some of the more legitamite Shaolin Ming and Ching texts(among many others).

Funny that those don't mention Damo as creating Shaolin pugilism nor do they mention Yi Jinjing.

So the only solution I see is that this book you mention is a brand new discovery dug out of someone's tomb or these historians I mention somehow missed this book you mention.

[r.(shaolin)]

............
Since the first mention of Damo's name(correct me if I am wrong) is 500 years after his death in Song Gao Sen Chuan, many historians question his actual existance.
.............

Hi Tainan Mantis,

Actually the first mention of Damo is in Lo Yang Ch'ieh-lan chi.
This major document, completed in 547, was written by Yang Hsuan-chih, an officer in the Wei army. It is one the the most important records from the time period. Note it was written about 50 years after Damo's arrival in China.

r.

[Tainan Mantis]

Hi r,
Thanks for that extremely important info.
Do you have this book or quotes from it?
If so, would it be too much to ask for a scan and post?

[r.(shaolin)]

Hi Tainan Mantis:
http://www.shaolinwushu.com/damo
The translation was done by Professor Yi-t'ung Wang and was published by Princeton University Press in 1984. By the way this is copyrighted material please use it accordingly.
Note Damo's special interest in Vajrapani. This Bodhisattva carries the thunderbolt and was placed as a guardian to protect the entrances of Chinese sanctuaries.
Even in India, Vajrapani carried a thunderbolt and was used as a protecting deity. He was considered the enemy of sin and evil.

I've included a Chinese Song Dynasty version of a 'thunderbolt carrying Bodhisattva taken from the famous "Buddha Scroll." - again this is copyrighted material please use it accordingly.
Oh yes, both Damo and Huike appear in this 12th century scroll featured as important masters.
r.

[Tainan Mantis]

r,
Thanks for posting this file.
I tried to find the book on amazon, but no luck.
I guess it is out of print.

I also like the picture very much. I find this kind of art inspiing for the CMArtist like myself.

In the text you posted I didn't see how that confirms that Damo's name was mentioned in 547.
But I will keep my eyes open for the book.

[r.(shaolin)]

Tainan Mantis "In the text you posted I didn't see how that confirms that Damo's name was mentioned in 547."
.....................

Hi TM,

"Damo" is the transliterated name of "Bodhidharma" the founding ancestor of Chan - i.e. both names refer to one and the same person.
r.

[Tainan Mantis]

Hi r,
I know about Damo's long name.
So this section of text is from 547 is what I failed to see.
I had it stuck in my head that the archaic Chinese would come out looking like archaic English.

[r.(shaolin)]

Hi TM,
....................
Tainan Mantis wrote:
". . . archaic Chinese (should) come out looking like archaic English. . . "
....................

:-))))
The translator, Dr. Yi-tung Wang, is not only a professor of East Asian languages but a renowned essayist. The work is part of Princeton's library of Asian translations which produces authoritative English editions of major classical work from Asia. Their advisory committee is composed of some the finest Chinese scholars in the world.

cheers,
r.

[Royal Dragon]

Any chance they have done General Qi Jiguan's "Summary of Chinese boxing?"

[GeneChing]

Tainan Mantis: That 1624 Yijinjing book was a recent scholarly find by Dr. Meir Shahar. HIs findings are pending publication. r.(shaolin)'s comments are quite in line with current research on Bodhidharma. Most now beleive that Bodhidharma was invention of tradition, and may well have had very little to do with Shaolin, Chan, Kung Fu, etc. He may not have even existed, except in the symbolic sense he does now. Many people seem to have a big problem with that, which I find rather ethnocentric. I don't really beleive Adam and Eve existed beyond the metaphor, but that doesn't mean I discredit Judaism, Christianity and Islam. Evidence of Vajrapani or some manifestation of him (jinnaluo) goes ****her back at Shaolin than Tamo, at least martially speaking. But even Buddhist scholars bring Tamo into question.

In a way, it's very Chan. Can you have Shaolin of no Tamo? ;)

Royal Dragon: Have you read Douglas Wile's translation?

[Tainan Mantis]

Hi Gene,
Thanks for the info.
I look forward to seeing the book.

[Royal Dragon]

Taiji Ansecstors? Yes, it has a translation of the Tai Tzu 32 move form. It's all poetry though, you can't work the form out.

There is only a small chapter on it though, hardly the whole boxing manual

[GeneChing]

That's the one!

Qi Jiguang wrote military encyclopedias and was the first to mention quan or 'boxing' as one small chapter in his encyclopedias. The rest was bing fa - warfare, like Sunzi, et.al. Those were grand books of military strategy, but did not address individual combat, except perhaps in metaphor. I think it's important to draw a distinction between quan and bing fa when doing any historical research. During Qi Jiguang's time (late Ming) quan was considered too vulgar for print. And it's worthy of note that the chapter on quan was removed when Qi revised his encyclopedia in his sixties. I think that was his final revision too, but I'm not sure about that. Correct me if I'm wrong here, since I haven't seen the full edition in Chinese, but my understanding is that the small chapter is all that there was specific to quan and the rest was more military and bing fa.

[mantis108]

I have a copy of General Qi 's book courtesy of Tainan Mantis. This book is unlike other Bing Fa book that it is a manual for the military. It is really detailed and practical. There is no abstract matter covered. We can also see that it is carefully constructed to please the ministry officials and the royal court. It is divided into 6 volumes designated with the 6 disciplines of Confucians.

1. Ettiquette

General introductions. This part includes all formal offical applications for drafting, forming, and training of troops. Curiously, these documents are almost in the tone of pleading for approval. It also makes official reply to quiries from the military ministry.

2. Music

7 chapters in total concerning military administrations.

3. Archery

2 chapters in total concerning training (battle formations) and marches.

4. Conduction (as in riding and driving)

5 chapters in total concerning fighting skills of troops. This is were the Quan jing is found along with the other weaponary training. It is of note that these are closely related to the actual applications of General Qi's creation - the mandarin duck battle formation. This is the battle formation that won him the war with the Japanese pirates. He also commented that this is pretty much invincible against the pirates.

5. Books

3 chapters in total concerning equipments, arsenal and century.

6. Mathematics

1 chapter concerning navl affairs.


Mantis108