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TjD
06-07-2001, 02:27 PM
this is pretty **** cool :)

i was wondering if you could go into a bit more depth on the subject - mabye provide some examples on how to practice this?

i've never tried it myself, but when punching i keep my fist/palm relaxed, it seems to work well on a human but ive hit a brick before

anyhow, do you have any tips on how one could practice this, or could you describe how the movement works?

thanks
travis

Watchman
06-07-2001, 06:54 PM
Well, first of all let me start off with some advice not to get too carried away with the brick thing because practicing all the time on heavy, immovable objects will slow you down a bit and dull your power in chi sau.

My sifu first taught me the brick thing to be used as a demo piece which highlights the difference between relaxed "shock" power and that of "hard" muscular power (proving that you don't have to be a football lineman in order to do damage), and of course I thought it was cool and started smacking bricks every chance I got. Thing is, after a while I started to notice that my reaction time when I practiced chi sau with my kung fu brothers was getting a little sluggish. So, it's fun to do but keep it balanced with your regular training. About the only time I ever touch a brick anymore is when I'm doing a demo (which is infrequent).

Anyway, a good drill to practice subhydroshock power (and brick-breaking if that's your inclination) is to take your standard issue wallbag, put it on something about waist height (on a table, or you can put it on something lower if you kneel) and practice dropping your palm onto the bag. What you do is start with your arm extended in front of you at eye level, completely relax, and drop your arm (without any added acceleration on your part - just let gravity bring it down), letting the full surface area of you palm impact on the bag - trying to feel a sharp stinging impact on the bottom of your hand. This drill trains your palm strikes from a completely relaxed state and helps develop the requisite power.

After you get the right feel in your hands from the "dropping" drill, then you can add in a short elbow acceleration which whips your arm down into the wallbag. Make sure you aren't trying to hit the bag "hard", but are still maintaning complete relaxation to develop the "shock" effect. The feel in your arms is almost like you are "throwing" your arm down and just letting it go, rather than trying to shove it down with your muscles.

After this you can go buy yourself one of those flat grey paving bricks, put it on some supports, slap a phonebook on top, and start the "drop" drill all over again until you feel comfortably relaxed. Then start in with some elbow acceleration to feel the shock impact when you hit. To send the shockwave through the book and into the brick you just need to maintain some elbow pressure downward upon impact so your palm doesn't just bounce off the book.

When you get the feel of the proper elbow acceleration, feel the shock power in your palm, and maintain your elbow pressure so you don't bounce, take a deep breath and go for full acceleration. You should be able to do the job.

Explaining this is kind of hard. If I was in front of you I could take two minutes to explain it to you, show you the motion a couple of times, have you take a practice shot, give you a pointer, and have you laying the smack down right away. It really doesn't take that much training to accomplish.

Now as far as translating this to fighting:

Working the wallbag exercises will do amazing things for your speed and power, believe it or not. When you practice chi sau you want to use the same kind of relaxed elbow acceleration in all of your arm movements with the same maintanence of elbow pressure upon impact when you're striking. You'll notice that your "soft" strikes will have a funny split second delay before they vibrate in and start wreaking havok.

http://www.wckfc.com/masters/man/Sec2-1.GIF

Not to tire of learning is wisdom;
Not to weary of teaching is benevolence.
-- Tzu-kung

TjD
06-07-2001, 08:27 PM
its funny but i think i know what your talking about. ive done my fair share of chi sau, and it seems that the punches that hurt the most are the ones where i wasnt even trying. when you just whip your hand out there and arent expecting to hit and therefore dont tense up to release the energy (if you know what im talking about)

with this i mean, when we punch we "tense" up so to say, to give our punches that extra snap at the end

but when my arm just gets sent flying out without the tension and ends up whacking my chi sau partner, usually it hurts them more

is this more the energy your talking about?

thanks very much!
travis

Watchman
06-07-2001, 08:56 PM
Yup, that's exactly the energy I'm talking about. Tensing up on impact will go a ways to damage your opponent, but maintaining complete relaxation upon impact with proper elbow pressure will send the force into his body cavity instead of just tearing up the surface area. This way it doesn't matter how physically conditioned he is because the force leaps right through him.

I have new students feel the force all the time by having them hold a phone book flat against their chest and letting me whip a medium strength punch into it from short range (about four to six inches away). They will feel the instant impact, then a split second delay, and a vibrating "buzz" will shoot and sink through them. I demoed on a student last week who said he felt the ********y force drop into his liver area and buzzed for a good half hour. He also got a little nautious and had to sit down for a while. :D

http://www.wckfc.com/masters/man/Sec2-1.GIF

Not to tire of learning is wisdom;
Not to weary of teaching is benevolence.
-- Tzu-kung

kungfu cowboy
06-07-2001, 10:05 PM
I have had the pleasure of being on the recieving end of this kind of power. Very convincing! I'm just glad it wasn't full force. Its a neat way to express energy.

(I seriously need a life.)™

mikey
06-08-2001, 09:36 PM
sorry,
I came here expecting to see a side of
beef getting blown to hell with some new
kind of subsonic Federal hollowpoints.

Stranger
06-10-2001, 01:49 AM
Where's the vid clip?

"Luminous beings are we."

Watchman
06-10-2001, 02:02 AM
Vid clip?

Stranger
06-10-2001, 02:28 AM
I'm sorry, I thought you were refering to some mpeg. that was posted elsewhere on the forum. I just wanted to see some cool stuff. :D

"Luminous beings are we."

Watchman
06-10-2001, 05:49 AM
He was referring to a post I made on another thread. I'll copy it over here:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Subhydroshock demonstration (from "Straight Line Punch" thread):

Here's me putting the smackdown on some innocent, standard lumber yard issue gray paving bricks. If you'll notice, there are no spacers and I've got a phone book on top of the first brick. I also don't make any big "body mass" moves (jumping, screaming, backflips, etc.) to get the job done -- just a nice relaxed whipping motion from the elbow and a focused hand position.

The purpose of the demo is to show that you can use soft force from just a whipping motion that can be sent through one surface (the phonebook) into another (the bricks) in order to do damage. If you see it live, there is a very tiny delay from the moment of impact on the phonebook and when the bricks snap. Enjoy.


http://albums.photopoint.com/j/View?u=1677781&a=12869344&p=49761636 http://albums.photopoint.com/j/View?u=1677781&a=12869344&p=49761635

Martial Joe
06-10-2001, 05:51 AM
Getting smacked by him,would it cause my head to split in two?

Martial Joe
06-10-2001, 05:52 AM
Of course but not Relaks,his is toooooo thik!

tnwingtsun
06-10-2001, 11:11 AM
Is that the same kind of energy you used on the spider?

Sorry man,couldn't help it. :D

kungfu cowboy
06-10-2001, 12:13 PM
LOL! :D

(I seriously need a life.)™

Stranger
06-10-2001, 02:15 PM
Cool, thanks for indulging me.

"Luminous beings are we."

mun hung
06-10-2001, 06:05 PM
Ever try it just a few inches from the phonebook?

Watchman
06-10-2001, 07:41 PM
Yes I have, but with only one brick.

Sharky
06-10-2001, 09:05 PM
away from the book? eh?

My anus is superiorâ„¢

Empty Cup
06-11-2001, 09:35 AM
Do you ever do it with no phonebook? Just curious.

Empty Cup

mun hung
06-11-2001, 10:24 AM
I think (correct me if I'm wrong) the watchman's trying to demonstrate the shock power "thru" the phonebook, Empty Cup. Breaking bricks is simple. Transfering that power thru a phonebook is more difficult. (but alot easier on the hands) ;)

Hitting the sandbag on a stand is one of my favorite excercises. We start just a few inches away whipping the palm down using the elbow. The arm is kept loose at all times. Does wonders for your pak sau.

Anymore interesting things to share?

CLOUD ONE
06-11-2001, 04:17 PM
Watchman that looks very impressive.
What stance are you using?
Does it matter what stance you are using?
Could this be done if you were sitting down?

Watchman
06-11-2001, 07:29 PM
>>>I think (correct me if I'm wrong) the watchman's trying to demonstrate the shock power "thru" the phonebook, Empty Cup. Breaking bricks is simple. Transfering that power thru a phonebook is more difficult. (but alot easier on the hands)<<<

Exactly! Plus the fact that I'm not using spacers shows that you have to focus the power so the bricks break simultaneously without the help of a "domino effect".

CLOUD ONE: I'm not using any particular stance at all (since it's all in the relaxed arm movment). I've done it standing, kneeling, and sitting. The important part is the angle of your arm when you hit.

http://www.wckfc.com/masters/man/Sec2-1.GIF

Not to tire of learning is wisdom;
Not to weary of teaching is benevolence.
-- Tzu-kung

[This message was edited by Watchman on 06-12-01 at 10:34 AM.]

CLOUD ONE
06-11-2001, 10:13 PM
Have you ever tried doing this tecnique in a bucket of water?

Watchman
06-11-2001, 11:24 PM
No, but I've practiced on watermelons. :D

El_CLap
06-11-2001, 11:39 PM
Is your elbow straight or bent on impact?

Watchman
06-12-2001, 12:37 AM
It's still bent slightly on impact so your elbow still tries to continue travelling through -- which sends the shockwave into the material.

kungfu cowboy
06-12-2001, 12:51 AM
I think its neat how whatever the heck is being transmitted is transmitted! I almost cringe to say it: physics is cool! :D

rogue
06-12-2001, 03:40 AM
Watchman, did you use any spacers?

Adventure is just a romantic name for trouble. It sounds swell when you write about it, but it's hell when you meet it face to face in a dark and lonely place.
Louis L'Amour

Martial Joe
06-12-2001, 05:12 AM
Watchman said
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Exactly! Plus the fact that I'm not using spacers shows that you have to focus the power so the bricks break simultaneously without the help of a "domino effect". [/quote]

Watchman
06-12-2001, 07:46 AM
>>>Watchman, did you use any spacers?<<<

Nope, no spacers.

rogue
06-12-2001, 10:37 PM
So are you saying that you did or didn't use spacers.

BTW I did like how you made use of the "domino effect". Very good!

Adventure is just a romantic name for trouble. It sounds swell when you write about it, but it's hell when you meet it face to face in a dark and lonely place.
Louis L'Amour

Martial Joe
06-12-2001, 11:03 PM
hahaha

greyseal
06-13-2001, 05:41 AM
I didn't see any dominoes in those two pictures.

kungfu cowboy
06-13-2001, 06:21 AM
HEY! I didn't see any effects!!!! :mad:

Watchman
06-13-2001, 06:42 AM
Sorry guys, getting Photoshop to erase my mullet and the reflection of my TransAm showing in the window was hard enough.

I couldn't figure out how to add in any dominoes. :(

kungfu cowboy
06-13-2001, 06:59 AM
HAW HAW!!! :D

IronFist
06-13-2001, 09:20 AM
Watchman,

Ever broken the bottom brick by hitting the top brick (no phonebook?)

That would be cool.

Iron

mun hung
06-13-2001, 11:08 AM
I think you've watched "Bloodsport" one too many times. ;)