mantis108
06-25-2004, 03:04 PM
On the Dazed and Confused thread, there are quite a bit of good points posted.
I basically agreed with Sevenstar's points. Mika make a good rebuttal to that as well. Shriker1 also impresses me with he's post.
First and foremost, there are a lot of different styles of Mantis in exsitance today. No 2 styles and no 2 lineages are alike and they don't have to be. Without training or understanding the different approaches and form an opinion from a video clip is plain ignorant and baised (God knows I have sinned like that many times with my big mouth).
There is an effort especially by the mainland China groups (Shandong, Shanghai, etc...) to "centralize" Mantis. That's part of the reason why we are hearing a lot of our mantis is the "one and only true way" of Mantis. The follow up of that is " my way or the high way".
As we saw in the latest round of debates, there simply is no way of pleasing those agenda oriented people. Criticism ranging from pat-a-cake to reverted to kickboxing, etc... Bottom line is those are the people that have more real agenda than true virtue (skills and heart). A lot of the negativities came from weak eyesights (lack of possitive vision included) and expressed in poor taste. Roundhouse (quanchui) and straight punches (tong chui) combinations would be deemed as "frailing", intensed combinations would be called brawling, etc... what more could one say? There are people who saw hook grab pluck in my clip and they acknowledged it. GBL, Tainan and I demonstrated in the clips that we have specific goals and specific techniques in mind in order for the students to see the timing to apply such things (mostly basic) in a lively situation. It is not good because it is not you attack with one punch and I counter with a death blow or some fancy moves from the forms? There is a time for drills like that but it is a different time. If you really truely can fight exactly like doing a form with an extremely resistive opponent, who's only goal is to smash your face or tackle you down, more power to you, great master(s). I'd love to see that in clip or in person.
There is a serious demonstration of how disconnected are those self-proclaimed master(s ) and so-called experts in Mantis Kung Fu in today's reality. Their reality is one that's 100 years or so ago. Whether we like and/or appreciate things like point sparring, kickboxing, Sanshou, K-1, UFC/NHB, etc... They are here to stay because there are dedicated people see to it that these things are to stay. So is traditional training. We don't have to cut other's line to make ours look longer.
The most erroneous and absurd assessment of GBL' last clip is that Sanshou type of sparring session is of little or no value to Mantis training. This is based on a claim of a great grandstudent generation practitioner's "complete" understanding of a famous internally known Grandmaster whom he never ever met? Yet, complete understanding is achieved?! No wonder newer formats of competition is not acceptable. I don't doubt the intelligence nor the skill of that practitioner (he and others could beat the crap out of me anytime for all I care) but let's have a fair and healthy atitude. A fairer and practical assessment should be that Mantis training is one that prepares the practitioner for any and all events be it sports or real life. Not the other way arround. It is definately the choice of the teacher whether to limit student's exposure to the reality of the real world which includes martial sports. I did that once upon a time. I limited myself to traditional mindset. As I start working with students some have extensive backgrounds in martial sports or other MA, I begin to see their needs to sort out the value and the wisdom of what traditional training has to offer in this day and age. Show them how hook grab pluck would be apply on the dark corner in the street and show them how it would be used on the platform and under the lime light. That's what Tanglang Kung Fu should be - exercised to the full potential.
What's wrong with basics? If basics is what save the day then why not capitalize on that? Yes, hook grab pluck, axe blade kick, quanchui, dengta, dengpu, etc... are basic and they don't necessarily do serious harm or look exciting even look like simply kicking+boxing or brawling to some. If you can use it to get yourself out of a tight spot, it's worth more than a thousand fancy techniques. More doesn't mean better. Boxing doesn't have hundreds of techniques but people can train in it for years and still never perfect it (re: win a championship). Same as Muay Thai, etc... When those who perfected them fight, people admire their skills. Don't forget many of the perceived sophisticated styles (CMA especially) got their a$$ handed to them when battling with those who got good basics. The assumption that mantis technique (even in basic form) is far better that other systems techniques is a fallacy and an illusion that lends to the potential of a marketing ploy. Only people who has very little experience, interest, or understanding of fighting would think in those terms. In my clip, I showed basic mantis skills (including advancing and retreating) in free movement phase in conjunction with basic groundfighting strategy within my mantis training program no more no less.
We've seen through the clips of Tainan, GBL and I that there are vibrant and distinct flavors in each of the mantis training. Like it or not they are going to be there because we are dedicated to see to it that they are going to be there.
Well, believe what you will. It is your right to believe that you are invincible and your way is the only way that counts. If your training builds a comfort zone for you to dwell in the past rather than serves as a mirror for good reflection to brighten the way ahead, I think you owe it to yourself to serious question the mindset and the training before it is shattered by something that you look down on.
For the record, I understand very well that there are many many people who understand and perform 10 times or 100 times better than I. It is a known fact to me and I have no illusion about it. So it doesn't bother me that I was labeled as amatuer and/or unskilled. All is relative. When push comes to shove, it wouldn't be a walk in the park for those who want a piece of "moi" and my mantis Kung fu.
Mantis108
I basically agreed with Sevenstar's points. Mika make a good rebuttal to that as well. Shriker1 also impresses me with he's post.
First and foremost, there are a lot of different styles of Mantis in exsitance today. No 2 styles and no 2 lineages are alike and they don't have to be. Without training or understanding the different approaches and form an opinion from a video clip is plain ignorant and baised (God knows I have sinned like that many times with my big mouth).
There is an effort especially by the mainland China groups (Shandong, Shanghai, etc...) to "centralize" Mantis. That's part of the reason why we are hearing a lot of our mantis is the "one and only true way" of Mantis. The follow up of that is " my way or the high way".
As we saw in the latest round of debates, there simply is no way of pleasing those agenda oriented people. Criticism ranging from pat-a-cake to reverted to kickboxing, etc... Bottom line is those are the people that have more real agenda than true virtue (skills and heart). A lot of the negativities came from weak eyesights (lack of possitive vision included) and expressed in poor taste. Roundhouse (quanchui) and straight punches (tong chui) combinations would be deemed as "frailing", intensed combinations would be called brawling, etc... what more could one say? There are people who saw hook grab pluck in my clip and they acknowledged it. GBL, Tainan and I demonstrated in the clips that we have specific goals and specific techniques in mind in order for the students to see the timing to apply such things (mostly basic) in a lively situation. It is not good because it is not you attack with one punch and I counter with a death blow or some fancy moves from the forms? There is a time for drills like that but it is a different time. If you really truely can fight exactly like doing a form with an extremely resistive opponent, who's only goal is to smash your face or tackle you down, more power to you, great master(s). I'd love to see that in clip or in person.
There is a serious demonstration of how disconnected are those self-proclaimed master(s ) and so-called experts in Mantis Kung Fu in today's reality. Their reality is one that's 100 years or so ago. Whether we like and/or appreciate things like point sparring, kickboxing, Sanshou, K-1, UFC/NHB, etc... They are here to stay because there are dedicated people see to it that these things are to stay. So is traditional training. We don't have to cut other's line to make ours look longer.
The most erroneous and absurd assessment of GBL' last clip is that Sanshou type of sparring session is of little or no value to Mantis training. This is based on a claim of a great grandstudent generation practitioner's "complete" understanding of a famous internally known Grandmaster whom he never ever met? Yet, complete understanding is achieved?! No wonder newer formats of competition is not acceptable. I don't doubt the intelligence nor the skill of that practitioner (he and others could beat the crap out of me anytime for all I care) but let's have a fair and healthy atitude. A fairer and practical assessment should be that Mantis training is one that prepares the practitioner for any and all events be it sports or real life. Not the other way arround. It is definately the choice of the teacher whether to limit student's exposure to the reality of the real world which includes martial sports. I did that once upon a time. I limited myself to traditional mindset. As I start working with students some have extensive backgrounds in martial sports or other MA, I begin to see their needs to sort out the value and the wisdom of what traditional training has to offer in this day and age. Show them how hook grab pluck would be apply on the dark corner in the street and show them how it would be used on the platform and under the lime light. That's what Tanglang Kung Fu should be - exercised to the full potential.
What's wrong with basics? If basics is what save the day then why not capitalize on that? Yes, hook grab pluck, axe blade kick, quanchui, dengta, dengpu, etc... are basic and they don't necessarily do serious harm or look exciting even look like simply kicking+boxing or brawling to some. If you can use it to get yourself out of a tight spot, it's worth more than a thousand fancy techniques. More doesn't mean better. Boxing doesn't have hundreds of techniques but people can train in it for years and still never perfect it (re: win a championship). Same as Muay Thai, etc... When those who perfected them fight, people admire their skills. Don't forget many of the perceived sophisticated styles (CMA especially) got their a$$ handed to them when battling with those who got good basics. The assumption that mantis technique (even in basic form) is far better that other systems techniques is a fallacy and an illusion that lends to the potential of a marketing ploy. Only people who has very little experience, interest, or understanding of fighting would think in those terms. In my clip, I showed basic mantis skills (including advancing and retreating) in free movement phase in conjunction with basic groundfighting strategy within my mantis training program no more no less.
We've seen through the clips of Tainan, GBL and I that there are vibrant and distinct flavors in each of the mantis training. Like it or not they are going to be there because we are dedicated to see to it that they are going to be there.
Well, believe what you will. It is your right to believe that you are invincible and your way is the only way that counts. If your training builds a comfort zone for you to dwell in the past rather than serves as a mirror for good reflection to brighten the way ahead, I think you owe it to yourself to serious question the mindset and the training before it is shattered by something that you look down on.
For the record, I understand very well that there are many many people who understand and perform 10 times or 100 times better than I. It is a known fact to me and I have no illusion about it. So it doesn't bother me that I was labeled as amatuer and/or unskilled. All is relative. When push comes to shove, it wouldn't be a walk in the park for those who want a piece of "moi" and my mantis Kung fu.
Mantis108