Form and Function

[Sim Koning]

I started this thread for people to share their opinions on what now seems to be one of the most controversial subjects in the martial arts, forms. Opinions on the subject seem to range from thinking they are a very important and integral part of the martial arts, to the belief that they are completely superfluous and a waste of time.

The fact is that they are not necessary to learn how to fight. Each technique in a form can be learned individually and practiced more realistically in shadow boxing. If you can learn how to fight without them, then why learn them at all? The answer to me is simple; there are more benefits to practicing forms than simply learning how to fight.

When practicing a traditional form, the stances are very low and the limbs are often extended to their limit. This provides an excellent exercise to increase flexibility, more so than normal stretching exercises. This also increases endurance and leg strength. But as with anything in a form, you have to do it correctly and you can’t be lazy, you have to go as low as possible, or it’s a waste.

Another thing practiced in forms is probably the least understood even among some martial artists, which is the practice of “chambering” the fist at the hips or upper ribs. To many it just looks stupid, because any good fighter knows to keep his guard up. Even more confusing for some people, is the fact that many early karate and tae kwon do practitioners actually sparred and fought by punching from the hip. I think this was mainly a result of fighters not understanding the real reason this is done in their kata. The primary reason for doing this is to train proper posture. Pulling your arms back tightly against your sides and hips opens up your chest and helps straighten your back. The secondary reason is that it helps teach the student to punch straight and end it with a twisting motion.

Forms are excellent for building coordination and ambidexterity. Most traditional styles practice their techniques equally with both the left and right arms. There are usually some stances that have no use in fighting but are excellent for building balance

And lastly, any good form should have real combat applications; otherwise you will be building muscle memory for movements you will never use. These applications should be taught and the martial artist should imagine using them on an opponent while performing them.


What are your thoughts on the practice of forms in the martial arts, and what do they mean to you?

[SPJ]

Forms are moves in a logical sequence.

Once you are very good at each move. The practice of forms is then necessary.

At any kind of display or "show", you always see forms.

Who like to watch the same move done over and over, anyhow?

Practice of indiviual move or form. They are practices.

San Da or San Shou (free sparring) is the actual fighting practice.

So forms are practices of moves in a sequence.

:)

[Shaolinlueb]

well martial arts has shifted form its main purpose of 200 years ago. 200 years ago when it was taught to survive, where in a modern world it emphasises more on health and such. but forms can still be used to learn techniques., a punch is a punch. same today as it was 200 years ago. i dont know who you trian with, you can tyrian forms with applications to be used in a "real sitation" but 70% fo the people today wont ever use what they learn unless they enter tournaments. even then msot goes out the window.

[SPJ]

Practice of forms is the foundation or skill buildup.

Which means you do forms over and over again.

To a certain level, you may practice "free" forms. You may improvise several sequences yourself. You may practice "fragments" of forms in random orders whatever comes to your mind.

At a higher level, you meditate about the moves in the forms. You move your Qi and mentally practicing the forms without actually moving your body or limbs.

Practice of physical forms is to train your body into reflexes.

Practice of mental (thinking without moving) forms is to train a focused mind and a quicker mind.

So that your body and mind are doing logics of sequences/sets of moves.

If your body and mind are doing or responding by indiviual move, you will be slow. Unless your each move is mighty fast, but there will still be critial "pauses" between your each move.

Just a few notes to unleash the forces of forms.

[SPJ]

Agreed.

I am guilty of practicing forms for health reasons nowadays.

So do most people.

However, do not underestimate the importance of forms.

Peace.

[Shaolinlueb]

Originally posted by SPJ
Practice of forms is the foundation or skill buildup.

Which means you do forms over and over again.

To a certain level, you may practice "free" forms. You may improvise several sequences yourself. You may practice "fragments" of forms in random orders whatever comes to your mind.

At a higher level, you meditate about the moves in the forms. You move your Qi and mentally practicing the forms without actually moving your body or limbs.

Practice of physical forms is to train your body into reflexes.

Practice of mental (thinking without moving) forms is to train a focused mind and a quicker mind.

So that your body and mind are doing logics of sequences/sets of moves.

If your body and mind are doing or responding by indiviual move, you will be slow. Unless your each move is mighty fast, but there will still be critial "pauses" between your each move.

Just a few notes to unleash the forces of forms.


agreed on that too. good input.

[count]

In my opinion and experience, forms should not even be taught or practiced until a person understands the basic movements, ie: applications, principles and power issues. It only leads to total misconceptions. Ones like that having your fist at the waist as a principle is "chambering" and one fights from that postition. Than people who have such gross misconceptions actually incorporate these principles into other fighting systems. LOL. If one doesn't know correct positioning, timing, angles and entries of an application than practicing forms is a useless excercise. There are much better ways of learning to fight or to learn how to defend yourself. Forms are a teaching tool for passing on a system, but not a method of practicing or training to fight.;)

[David Jamieson]

forms are catalogues of techniques of a given style.

you would learn form so that you could efficiently practice a body of knowledge.

you extrapolate single techniques from form or combined techniques from form and practice them with force or with a partner to gain further knowledge of the function and application of the technique.

form helps you to make a technique second nature and build it into your immediate reaction to a given threat, but this is mostly done by extrapolation and drilling against common attacks.

Forms can also contain techniques that are unusual and that you will likely not readily undertsand or be able to use.

form should emphasize correct alignment of teh body structure, fluid movement of the body, correct breathing and maintenance of teh position of strength as you move from posture to posture, strike to strike etc etc.

In short, form is a method of instruction taht has proven useful for physical skills. Any set pattern of one or more motions practiced with an inculcative method to instill the defense or attack into the practitioiner can be considered a "form" or "set".

cheers

[Banjos_dad]

KL beat me to it.

Also, here's a thought...back in the "old days" most people were illiterate, weren't they? Reading & writing skills being reserved for the upper class of citizens?
Instead of having to remember all the moves separately ("...Each technique in a form can be learned individually and practiced more realistically in shadow boxing..."), they assembled them into standardized sequences for mnemonic purposes.
(light bulb ignites)
Right or wrong that's my take.

People either like forms or not.
The carcass of this horse is flayed bare anyway :)

[SifuAbel]

"("...Each technique in a form can be learned individually and practiced more realistically in shadow boxing...")"

Except you wouldn't be training the TRANSITIONS between techniques of which you will be doing in fighting. Its not about the one move, you don't fight with one move. You don't do one technique , stop, reset, start again, at least you shouldn't :D, in a fight.

This applies especially with footwook.

[SifuAbel]

Also there are several layers of movement within any given technique.

You will find that the more time passes the more simple these movements will seem to you. And the less unusual they will become. After a while you'll think back and ask yourself "why did I think that was so strange before?"

The answer is, before, they were just empty movements, now, you can see the opponent in them. You see how simple it really is.

[3rdrateIMAkilla]

I think count and banjos dad had some good ideas. Also SifuAbel did too.

Who says forms are useless? Well, MMA guys, they don't do them. You don't need forms to learn to fight.

But, who says forms are key? High level masters, with high level skills, that enable an old chinese man to defeat trained younger fighters, in an ubeleivable fashion most can't imagine

[David Jamieson]

Well, MMA guys, they don't do them. You don't need forms to learn to fight.

well, that's not true. MMA guys do work forms as much as some of them may kick and squeal and proclaim they don't, they do.

if you work any combination moves in sequence, you are doing form you are practicing form whether you wanna call it something else or not, that's fine.

let's say you work on your one two, then your crosses, then your kicks etc etc, none of that sh.it is done statically. You want to keep all of it alive whether you are solo, with a partner, on a bag or flapping air. It's all form work.

some styles have forms that are 4 or 5 moves, some have 50+ and so on. It's all working form.

so, I would say that anyone who practices martial arts, classical or modern works forms and works techniques repititiously as form.

I would also add that a great deal of mma guys come from classical backgrounds.

but that's another dead horse we spend way to much time kicking at here.


-Abel, transition is important and when I say extrapolate, i do mean to use techs that flow one to the next in some cases. However, there are multiple techniques that all flow one to the next but these are what I call text book moves and they almost never work out that way in a for real situation.

You never get perfect opportunities range wise and often get cut off or jammed or whatever and this screws up any transition you were trying for.

but one or two strung together is still good to do.

Forms for me are an efficient way of practicing and learning a large body of material. There isn't a lot to many arts and they are dead simple to learn but nothing is dead simple to master. THere are also a great deal of arts that are not even remotely easy to learn, nevermind master. lol. (I generally think that these are the arts that everyone thinks they are learning :) )

cheers

[Banjos_dad]

Thanx 'killa.

SA's mention of transitions between techniques is also very valid here.

Difference is like trying to comprehend a form from a series of pictures in a magazine article VS watching a dvd or live instructor.

Sometimes our time is better spent just training now & understanding later :eek:

[SifuAbel]

" You never get perfect opportunities range wise and often get cut off or jammed or whatever and this screws up any transition you were trying for."

This is true , yet, far from the point I was making.

To further reduce this broth, I'll add that the transitions teach how to flow within movement. That includes having to readjust and adapt on the fly. Whatever the technique may be.

The point about form being as simple as the "form" of a single punch is correct. Most of the MMA guys are just mincing words and argueing semantics.

[David Jamieson]

agree with all dat :D

[3rdrateIMAkilla]

Forms do repeat. But are very balanced. And many times 1 move is 5 different moves.

Also, most forms I have learned start facing south, end facing north

[omarthefish]

Originally posted by Kung Lek


well, that's not true. MMA guys do work forms as much as some of them may kick and squeal and proclaim they don't, they do.

if you work any combination moves in sequence, you are doing form you are practicing form whether you wanna call it something else or not, that's fine.

[snip]

cheers

Nah....that's working on "your form" not working on forms. Big difference. Show me an MMA guy who has 30-40 moves strung together in sequence that they do the same each time and never change the sequence unless they have been at it for decades and have decided that they have some personal refinements on the way that sequence was taught to them and THEN you'll have an MMA guy doing forms.

I do both. I take little 2 or 3 move sequences and then I have the form. There's overlap as most of my little combos are lifted straight out of the form but the combos alone are a looooong way from "form training".

Little pet peeve of mine there that's been bugging me.

One other item that grated on me was in the original post where "chambering" to the waist was mentioned. *groan* To take an example out of Baji, where the rear hand comes back to the ribs on many many moves....in application not a single one is a chambered punch. And it's not about posture either. One I can think of starts as a grab that turns into a wirst lock/armbar combonation. Had it applied to me in a push hands scenario. I thought we were working on taiji and then suddenly my hand was wrenched, I was bent over at the waist and a big ass forearms smash was coming down over my neck. I get up and review what just happened and realize it was textbook Baji with the hand "chambered" at the waist.

Another one I can think of is actually a variation on a single leg. The hand is back at the ribs in solo practice but in application you can see than the rear arm is cradling a persons leg. Most of these hand-at-waist poses in Baji at least, are "after" pictures, not "before".

There is one thing I find partucularly special about the Baji forms though. A reason why I am always having to dig deep to find the energy to go over them again. I was not taught to do them slow and deep, holding each pose for a moment or 3 before moving on. I was taught that that is a good exercise for certain reasons but not the main way to do them. I do them at full speed. There are spots where I can slow down a bit and parts where I have to speed up. I do Xiaobaji and Dabaji back to back and I have yet to see ANYTHING else that can suck up my wind as quickly. It takes incredible discipline to do these 2 back to back at full speed and nearly full power and not be thrust immediately into the "so gassed I am about to puke" mode. Incredibly good training for relaxing and breathing right under pressure.

I find the rythmn and speed of Dabaji simulates the stresses placed on the body of fighting better than anything else other than . . . .well . . . fighting. In some ways better even than sparring because in sparring, we try to be nice to each other.

Different forms give you different things. I think some are more valuable than others.

[David Jamieson]

Nah....that's working on "your form" not working on forms. Big difference. Show me an MMA guy who has 30-40 moves strung together in sequence that they do the same each time and never change the sequence unless they have been at it for decades and have decided that they have some personal refinements on the way that sequence was taught to them and THEN you'll have an MMA guy doing forms.

I do both. I take little 2 or 3 move sequences and then I have the form. There's overlap as most of my little combos are lifted straight out of the form but the combos alone are a looooong way from "form training".

with forms in kungfu, you definitely work on your form.

In the gross sense of the word you are correct omar. But in the definitive sense, I think that 3 moves strung together or 25 is still form work when it is done repititiously and to improve motor skills etc.

I also do both. I still consider combos to be form work. By definition, it is. But is it only a "form" at 11 moves? 3? 26? 50? When does repitition of a combat exercise no longer meet the criteria and when does it?

I understand the gross differences in training methodology, but the goals and objectives are too similar to make a sweep that 3 moves is not form but 20 is.

cheers

[omarthefish]

Bummer.

Looks like the site server crashed or something.

I wasn't able to acess the forums all day today and now when I finnaly got in.... it looks like the last days worth of posts have disappeared.

:(

[SevenStar]

ttt so people can repost the lost info.

[omarthefish]

Aaarrrrgggghhh!!!!

I got to get back to this later tonite. I was really enjoying this topic but I HATE reposting...

:mad:

[SifuAbel]

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[SifuAbel]

Working on your "forms" is working on routines.


Working your "form" is working on the shape of every individual movement. If this is not done the routine will look sloppy and weak no matter how many moves are stringed together.

So far people have shown simply that they just don't get it and make a world a reasons for why they don't get it and for why they shouldn't get it.