GTG for other lifts/exercises?

[bung bo]

in the naked warrior pavel says only to GTG with one arm pushups and pistols. i do these a few times a day, never to failure. if i did the same thing with bench presses, curls, etc. intergrated into the program (along side the OAPU and pistols) would it curtail my strength progression?

[FooFighter]

Bung Bo:

Glad to see I have a fellow class mate in "Naked Warrior." I think you can combine both PTP and NW. For example, MON, WED, FRI you can you can do single arm push ups and TUE, THU, SAT you can Bench. Or you can do two workouts a day, like NW in the morning and PTP in the late afternoon or evening. The twice of a day workout will help you develop skills and strength much faster than normal traditional three times a week schedule in my opinion. However, most people do not have the discipline or time. Oh yeah, make sure you have plenty of hours in between the two workouts.

If you want to try the hyperthrophy bear program 5 sets of 5 Reps found in PTP: Do 3 sets of bench and 2 sets of single push ups. My Wing Chun Si Dai, Dean and I came up with this idea when we were discussing how to combine NW and PTP along with improving wing chun specific exercises. By the way, it would be a good idea to invest in weighted vest (www.performbetter.com) for future load progression for the single arm push ups. I hope this was helpful. Keep up the good work.

[bung bo]

i got the book 2 days ago and have added 1 pistol. i'm still working up to OAPU on my left. i sprained my right wrist a few weeks ago and pushups on my right aren't possible.

haven't read PTP yet. one of my classmates is going to lend it to me. how do you feel about the overhead sidepress? if i do NW in the morning and PTP later, is 6 hours enough in-between time?

thanks for your input FF.

[Toby]

Well, as a newbie I'm not qualified to answer this, but I'll try anyway :rolleyes:.
Originally posted by bung bo
would it curtail my strength progression? It might. Here's an example - I used to do PTP with bench, squat, deadlift and weighted pullups. All was good until I started getting near my maxes. Then, my breaks between sets got longer and longer and my fatigue for the deadlift got more and more. It didn't curtail my strength gains, but it did make for more fatigue nearing the end of a cycle. After a couple of months of this I went to alternating 2 week cycles of bench, squat, pullups and bench, DL, pullups. Much better.

If I was going to do both, I'd do PTP every day of a cycle and NW as much as possible. Unlike Foo I disagree with doing one day one workout, another day another. I think the break in the program would be enough to disrupt the neurological improvement process. I'd try every day NW and see how it went, then maybe cut down to 3 times a week.

Overhead sidepress? Sure. My preference would be bench, but it requires more equipment obviously.

[FooFighter]

bung bo

You and I are the only two who I know are reading and practicing NW on this forum. For your wrist injuries, I think you should find ways to develop your grip strength such as the Ivanko Super Gripper and the wrist roller. By the way, as you know in NW Pavel classified the single arm push ups as a power chest movement like the bench press and therefore there be will no neurological hindrance as Toby suggested. Moreover doing 2-5 sets of 3-5 reps for a particular lift is not uncommon in Pavel's system.

How do you feel about the overhead sidepress?

This is the king of shoulder exercise in my opinion. Doing the saxon press will prepare you for KB shoulder press variations if you decide to work with KBs in the future.

IF do NW in the morning and PTP later, is 6 hours enough in-between time?

Yes it is enough recovery time for your Nervous system. Remember you are not "working out" but "practicing a skill". The more you practice you get better at the skill. Doing NW or PTP with the "work out" mentality is clearly wrong which Pavel have wrote about. It is from my observation that many people who were students of HITT have a difficult time understanding how to use PTP or manage their max loads.

Good luck and best wishes.

[bung bo]

first off, this thread had more posts on it 3 days ago. RTB, were some deleted?

FF--what is the saxon press? i have tried the overhead side press, the weight was easy enough to deal with, (only 20lbs.) but it was hard to keep the barbell steady. is this what the saxon press will help me with?
i'd like to get some KBs, but i can't afford them. the shipping alone is high for me. well, i could buy them and try the pump and run thing at the gas station. i don't think i will, though.

[Ford Prefect]

Foo,

I own and have read NW. I just never saw fit to practice it. ;)

[Serpent]

What's GTG?

[Ford Prefect]

Grease The Groove

It's Pavel's (Tsatsouline: a strength training author with a loyal following) catch phrase for synaptic facillitation. The more complex way to describe would be that the more you practice a chosen motor task (ie bench press, jab/cross combination, jump shot, etc) the more refined the movement becomes because the motor pathways for that movement (the synapses that make up the pathways) actually respond to the frequent stimulation thus they grow to acoomadate the CNS traffic. This includes all the pathways that would make up a complex action, so the increased efficiencey in the CNS means muscles fire strongly and in a coordinated fashion to best facillitate the movement, opposing muscle groups will relax, etc.

The easier way to describe it is just practice makes perfect.

[IronFist]

Originally posted by Ford Prefect
The more complex way to describe would be that the more you practice a chosen motor task (ie bench press, jab/cross combination, jump shot, etc) the more refined the movement becomes because the motor pathways for that movement (the synapses that make up the pathways) actually respond to the frequent stimulation thus they grow to acoomadate the CNS traffic. This includes all the pathways that would make up a complex action, so the increased efficiencey in the CNS means muscles fire strongly and in a coordinated fashion to best facillitate the movement, opposing muscle groups will relax, etc.


Thanks. I was actually going to make a thread called something like "the role of the CNS in strength training." In fact I think I still might make that thread. I mean I kind of know what it's all about, but I don't REALLY know what it's all about.

[Serpent]

Originally posted by Ford Prefect
Grease The Groove

It's Pavel's (Tsatsouline: a strength training author with a loyal following) catch phrase for synaptic facillitation. The more complex way to describe would be that the more you practice a chosen motor task (ie bench press, jab/cross combination, jump shot, etc) the more refined the movement becomes because the motor pathways for that movement (the synapses that make up the pathways) actually respond to the frequent stimulation thus they grow to acoomadate the CNS traffic. This includes all the pathways that would make up a complex action, so the increased efficiencey in the CNS means muscles fire strongly and in a coordinated fashion to best facillitate the movement, opposing muscle groups will relax, etc.

The easier way to describe it is just practice makes perfect.
Right ok - that's a great description. Thanks.

Why doesn't he just call it synaptic facilitation like everyone else? You could have posted:

"It means Grease The Groove. It's marketing speak for Synaptic facilitation"

and I'd be all up to speed.

[Toby]

Everything Pavel says is marketing speak :p.

[Serpent]

Pavel should have a gay love affair with Matt Furey and then the both of them could leave us all the fvck alone.

[FooFighter]

Bung bo

Why was my tread to you deleted? I have no clue.

What is the saxon press?

Another name for the overhead side press.

I know Kbs are expensive but it is not vital to have or to practice. Maybe in the future you can save enought money for a pood KB?
I have personal been working with them for a long time now and it works.

FordPerfect, glad to see you here. I am sorry about my comment. I will correct my original statement. Ford and I have all of Pavel's body of work, however, Ford did not see fit to practice NW. Ford, how is the CB training going?

[Ford Prefect]

Foo,

It's alright. Once again been put to ancillary work since I was able to build myself a decent gym. I basically just use it for grip work, recovery work, and shoulder pre-hab.

Iron,

I'm always torn between structural (hypertrophy) and functional (CNS) work. I think the naturally skinny guys like us should stick to CNS work and heavy work.

[FooFighter]

Ford,

Do you know is funny and maybe you can explain this? I am now on a 10 week body composition cycle and it has been been for five weeks. I do cardio work 4 times a week and practice strength skills (2 sets/5 reps) three times a week. For some odd reason my triceps and shoulders and back is getting bigger? I am trying so hard to lose the fat and it is a battle. It is just odd that certain body parts is growing? I thinking maybe it is the supplements I am taking? By the way, I agree I think CNS strength training should be a must for us lean and mean dudes. <wink>

[Ford Prefect]

Do you take tape measurements at regular intervals during the same time of day every time? If not, and you're just going by appearance, a leaner waist gives the appearance of wider lats and shoulders.

[IronFist]

Originally posted by Serpent
Why doesn't he just call it synaptic facilitation like everyone else? You could have posted:

"It means Grease The Groove. It's marketing speak for Synaptic facilitation"

and I'd be all up to speed.

Cuz not everyone else knows that.

[rubthebuddha]

Why doesn't he just call it synaptic facilitation like everyone else? because using your own terms lets you make acronyms for everything you publish. :D

PTP, RKC, GTG, NW, etc. -- which are all his babies. synaptic facilitation is a scientific term, and making an acronym when the term isn't your own and isn't inclusive or cool enough. ;)

[FooFighter]

Do you take tape measurements at regular intervals during the same time of day every time? No, I havent Ford and yes, I was just going by appearance. However, I now weight 159 and I weighted 165 four weeks ago. I have a waist line is 31 and that hasnt changed and my shoulder (like how tailors' measure your shirt size) measurement is 48.

Oh yeah, Ford I dropped about 400 bucks today on July 4th. I purchased another 15lb CB (now I have a pair). I was too skeptical before but since I free style my CB without any training, I realized CB is an amazing tool for MA training. So I also purchased "Circular Strength" book and video, The" Body Flow" book, "Be Breathe" video series, "Warrior Wellness" video series, and "CST Core Cadre Curriculum" book today. Wish me luck and do you think I made a good purchase? I hope it will worth it. If anything at least I will have more tools and knowledge than Toby, LOL. Kidding.

[Ford Prefect]

Not bad. I would have skipped the CST book and Core Cadre as well as warrior wellness. You'll be getting plenty of ROM/Joint work with Body Flow and the CB's. Of course I didn't figure that out either until after I wasted my money on them too...

[FooFighter]

Ford:

If I owned most of Pavel's stuff, why not Sonnon's stuff? I am planning to collect all his videos and books like I did with Pavel's body of work. Grip strength and shoulders and hips play a huge role in the type of wing chun I practice. Therefore Kettlebells and ClubBells are things which I thing no serious wing chun student should miss.

[Toby]

Originally posted by FooFighter
Grip strength ...Some interesting old school ideas in John Brookfield's book (http://www6.mailordercentral.com/ironmind/prodinfo.asp?number=1273&variation=&aitem=8&mitem=48). I'd recommend it.

[FooFighter]

TobyOne:

Thanks for the information. I have heard of this author and his book, but dont have it. Are you doing any KBs and CBs work?

[Ford Prefect]

Yeah, Foo. If you are a big fan of Pavel's, it'd make sense to like Sonnon and vice-versa.

[Toby]

Originally posted by FooFighter
I have heard of this author and his book, but dont have it. Are you doing any KBs and CBs work? Like I said, worth it if you happen to be making an Ironmind purchase. I don't do KB or CB work. I wouldn't mind KB's, but price in Oz scares me off. I can get a hell of a lot of Olympic setup for the same price. CB's - the closest I come is I made my own Heavy Hammer II (http://www6.mailordercentral.com/ironmind/prodinfo.asp?number=1255&variation=&aitem=32&mitem=39) out of a piece of galvanised 2" pipe, 700mm long. The pipe alone is heavy enough, but I stuck a couple of Olympic Bulldog (http://www6.mailordercentral.com/ironmind/prodinfo.asp?number=1226-L&variation=&aitem=10&mitem=12) collars on it and it's pretty heavy. I wanted to stick weight on there, but it's unnecessary. I could start sticking a few pounds on there now, I guess. But as Ford once said, I wouldn't trust it for CB work. I feel it really helps my grip, though.

Back to the book, he uses sledgehammers for a lot of work. Similar stuff to HHII or CB, although not as dynamic as CB work. One exercise that interests me is "finger walking". You hold the hammer vertically in your fingertips and "walk" your fingers one after the other up and down the shaft. Another is hold two hammers one out each side of your hand and move your hand around so the hammers are horizontal, vertical, whatever. One I really want to try is make a leather pouch and fill it with shot and toss it up in the air and catch it. Supposed to be very good for a claw grip. I've heard that students in my school that used to learn a tiger style would do this in the old days. Last cool idea - drive an axe head into a large block of wood (with or without the axe handle) and lift the wood in a farmer's walk by pinch-gripping the axe head. Anyway, the point is, it's full of out-of-the-box ideas.

[FooFighter]

Toby:

I get enough direct forearm work with my wrist roller and Ivanko Super Gripper and indirectly from my weight training, Kettlebells and ClubBells training. I understand that KBs are quite expensive but you are really missing out on good Pavel's intel by passing this tool up as well with the CBs. Much of PTP is much more a complete package when you study how to use Kettlebells along with PTP in my opinion. There is no close CB-substitute which as you know Ford can better explain than I.

The Heavy Hammer II sound like the Thor Hammer which sound like great old school strength tool but I am not too keen on home made, boot leg creations unless you are a skilled wielder. Hence, I believe authentic Kettlebells and ClubBells fit the bill for me and I have achieve good gains from using them. Just today as I was working with my clubs many curious personal trainers and fellow gym rats wanted to play with my Club and were surprised that something that only weight 15Lb felt so heavy. Some even wanted to buy a CB. Some personal trainers asked me to demostrate how this Iron Bat worked and I performed a clean/ torch press while doing a pistol. When none of the trainers could copy my movement, I will admit I felt like a braggart. However
I did motivated many gym rats to maybe rethink their own routines. <wink>

[Toby]

Originally posted by FooFighter
Toby:

I get enough direct forearm work with my wrist roller and Ivanko Super Gripper and indirectly from my weight training, Kettlebells and ClubBells training. I understand that KBs are quite expensive but you are really missing out on good Pavel's intel by passing this tool up as well with the CBs. Much of PTP is much more a complete package when you study how to use Kettlebells along with PTP in my opinion. There is no close CB-substitute which as you know Ford can better explain than I.Just trying to help. The book is worth a read, anyway. BTW, dunno whether Ford does/did much CB work. Did you read the recent article on KB's arguing some of their major points? Don't remember which thread it was. Anyway, for the price of 6 KB's I got a full power rack and 400lb Olympic weight. I'll have to wait a few years if I want KB's and even then it'll probably be supplemental. I'd rather start with the Olympic lifts first but before I do anything I have to rehab my shoulder.


Originally posted by FooFighter
The Heavy Hammer II sound like the Thor Hammer which sound like great old school strength tool but I am not too keen on home made, boot leg creations unless you are a skilled wielder. Hence, I believe authentic Kettlebells and ClubBells fit the bill for me and I have achieve good gains from using them.Nothing wrong with homemade, especially if you save big bucks. I like the idea of old-school stuff. Stone lifting, caber tossing, tyre flipping, sledgehammers, etc. I've got nothing against KB's and CB's except the price, especially in Oz. My homemade Heavy Hammer isn't dodgy. It's just a 700mm length of 2" galvanised pipe with a couple of Olympic collars on one end - nothing difficult to that. Adjustable weight and position of the weight. As to boot leg - :confused: nothing illegal about making one, either.