Horse and leg strength.

[Mr Punch]

I've recently started doing a lot more horse and other painfully low and slow/static stances. From I thought about fast-twitch and slow-twitch muscle fibre, this should not increase my overall leg-strength... BUT I seem to be noticing a big difference in for example running up the stairs, and kicking. Why should this be? I don't eat shredded wheat, and as far as I know I wasn't completely mr-puny-can't-run-up-the-stairs couch potato beforehand either!

[One Finger Zen]

This is perfectly normal as you're in the stage between the old strength and the new strength taking over. I used to feel it when i began doing mabu for extended periods of time but now at 24 minutes, its all good :D.

It should subside soon after a couple of weeks as its the old muscles being torn down and built up by even stronger muscles (feel free to correct me anyone if im talking BS again ;))

Peace

[IronFist]

Originally posted by One Finger Zen
It should subside soon after a couple of weeks as its the old muscles being torn down and built up by even stronger muscles


wtf do they teach in kf schools?

[Tak]

Stance training has the same effect for me.

[Dark Knight]

I run 4 days a week and bike two. The rides are 2 hours long and the runs are 3 to 5 miles. (my job allows me to workout during the day)

When I first started running I noticed my front leg sweeps were alot more effective. They went from disrupting their balance to taking them down.

Kicks became more powerful, faster and more effective. My speed overall improved, especially in sparring, I can cover distance faster, and my movement is smoother.

[Toby]

Mat, were you trained before? Weight-trained? Or just wussy WC-trained in high stances :D (I train WC too). How long are the stairs? How long are you kicking for? What difference is there to your kicking (you feel you're kicking harder?)?

[blooming lotus]

I go quite heavy on varied squats and other thigh, butt, stance training myself and at school and in my apartment building we have bulk stairs to deal with many times a day...........just don't forget your stretches, as varied as possible ( no matter how breif) and work through it regardless........you're probably feeling the difference because by doing this your hitting alot more of the smaller antagonists and supportive muscles and tendons etc than you previously were.............crazy how these things work...................

[inic]

What grammar school did you go to where they teach people that having 9 "." is the proper ending to a sentence.

[IronFist]

^ :D

[One Finger Zen]

...but you know what i mean doncha?
Ironfist, I put that into words a bit stupidly. But the pain is the muscles being rebuilt right? Please correct me if i'm wrong...

OFZ

[scotty1]

I've read all the arguments about strength training and stance training, and how it doesn't really work too well, but since starting our neigung, which involves some pretty serious stance training, my leg strength has definitely (and continues to, after doing it for 6 months) improve.

*shrug*

I know, I'm a miracle of medical science. :D

[blooming lotus]

grammar..very m.freakin funny boys...believe it not, it's my forte..I'm very well spoken you know :rolleyes: :p :p

anyway...I believe the "pain" or slog comes from metabloisation and lactation.it's all about you sugars, ( which allcomplex carbs end up being), your proteined portion compliment and timing of workouts..for high performance you've gotta be constient, gotta have a routine, a cycle and know what your body needs , when you're goinmg to provide it and exactly how much of it your providing and how you'redealing with the "un-useable".........otherwise , just consider yourself a b-grader and be done with it...............


a -class performance requires a-classvigilance.........end 'o story.......

Ps.don't always believe what you read...text book accounts are often jus a lil of the mark;).....

pps.if you're not eating wheat.check your sugars and like............

[Serpent]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
grammar..very m.freakin funny boys...believe it not, it's my forte..I'm very well spoken you know :rolleyes: :p :p

anyway...I believe the "pain" or slog comes from metabloisation and lactation.it's all about you sugars, ( which allcomplex carbs end up being), your proteined portion compliment and timing of workouts..for high performance you've gotta be constient, gotta have a routine, a cycle and know what your body needs , when you're goinmg to provide it and exactly how much of it your providing and how you'redealing with the "un-useable".........otherwise , just consider yourself a b-grader and be done with it...............


a -class performance requires a-classvigilance.........end 'o story.......

Ps.don't always believe what you read...text book accounts are often jus a lil of the mark;).....

pps.if you're not eating wheat.check your sugars and like............
Wrong in every way.

Naturally, we should all ignore the text books with their scientifically proven and verifiable data and instead all believe the wondrous Eyebrows Genius for what she says is truth.

:rolleyes:

[blooming lotus]

you know it's times like this I wish I could read your post.........


missin me ha???..........

don't worry, have a show doqwn in 10 wks but after I clean up , maybe I 'll zip down sydney and we can do coffee and a chat

[Serpent]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
you know it's times like this I wish I could read your post.........


missin me ha???..........

don't worry, have a show doqwn in 10 wks but after I clean up , maybe I 'll zip down sydney and we can do coffee and a chat
WHy am I replying to this based on the assumption that you can't read it? Ah well, in case your genius IQ ever helps you to fogure out how to switch off the Ignore function that you claim to have on, you'll see it then.

Coffee and a chat, eh? I'll be there for that. How about a friendly spar while we're at it? Gong sau?

[FooFighter]

Mat

Doing stance training is an isometric exercise. Most sifus I know believe doing Ma (horse) training is vital in gung fu training because they believes it develop gong lik and chi power in your legs. The reason why you see a difference in you running up the stair is your legs are stronger. Reasoning? Who cares as long you are getting stronger.... (LOL). Isometric exercises helped me to improve my chi sao. Do I believe in chi power/gong lik? I dont know, but it works.

[Mr Punch]

Dark Knight, cheers, I used to run a lot (10 k before breakfast 4 times a week, sprints on a pebble beach and in the water with my dog and my weapons etc...), and I know the benefits of running. That makes more sense to me as it's fast-twitch muscle right?

What's foxing me is that horse is slow-twitch, and it appears toi be improving my explosive strength.

Toby, you're a very cheeky boy, and I'd spank you but you'd probably like it. I am used to doing horse for maybe twenty minutes a day (my sink is too low, so washing up hurts my back otherwise!!!), plus trainforstrength bodyweight exercises... which aren't too sloppy. Plus of course wrestling and thai based mma and kung fu.

Foo, good point, but it matters to me partly out of natural curiosity and partly because eventually I'm going to want to teach my arts and am going to need some kind of scientific explanation instead of just saying, "Just do it!"!

[Toby]

10k runs aren't fast-twitch.

I'm tempted to add the spank comment to my sig, but people might talk :D.

I asked the questions before because I thought you might not be used to any exercise in that ROM and therefore low horses might improve over your exercise baseline. That's not the case, though. FWIW, I think it might be due to stair climbing being in a similar ROM to low horses. Most of the effort is when your legs are heavily bent, esp. steep stairs. By the time the lower leg straightens, the upper leg has taken up the load again (in the bent position). Also, I asked about the length of time because a really long flight of stairs (like 2-3+ stories) would be moving into the realm of endurance. Short flights (10 (?) stairs or so) would be more strength-ATP. I go well for the first few (e.g. 10) stairs but a 2-3 story building is a different story. I'll start to breathe more heavily in the long staircases, whereas a shorter one will raise my heart rate but not wind me at all.

Basically, I dunno. The above is just ideas and thoughts.

[_William_]

I read that in an isometric exercise, the closer your muscles are to the fully lengthened position, the more the gains over the full ROM will be. I guess that means if you've been working really low horse stances theres going to be some improvement in your strength through the full ROM.

Actually I've been wondering about why the strength gains you get isometrics are supposed to be confined to the angle you train at.

Maybe its a neurological phenomenon? Surely the muscles dont "know" what angle they are exerting force at.

:confused:

[IronFist]

Isometrics increase your strength through about 15 degrees either way from the angle of contraction. At least that's what I hear. So horse stance training won't do anything for almost straight leg strength.

[Mika]

I don't wanna bore y'all with a long response (this time...;) ), so I will make it short.

Training is very specific if it is to be maximized. Having said that, the level from where one starts makes a big difference. From 0 you can only go up, no matter what. From 10 (arbitrary numbers) you cannot go too far, no matter what (relatively speaking).

In a nutshell :)

//mika

[Ford Prefect]

Mika makes a good point. As Iron said isometric exercises strengthen the muscles at the joint angle it is performed in as well as +/- 15 degrees of flexion. If you were untrained/undertrained to begin with, you will see increases in things like maximal strength/explosive strength to begin with because the nature of the increase of force output in such individuals. However, gains in those areas will eventually dwindle to nothing and the only thing you will be training is strength-endurance in that position.

[Toby]

Uh, yeah. That's what I was trying to say. Thanks Mika.

[IronFist]

Translation: newbies can do anything and make crazy strength gains. I added 20lbs to my squat overnight the first time I squatted.

So if you're a noob, just because you're making gains doesn't mean what you're doing is good or effective. It just means your muscles are doing more than they're used to and responding.

[Ford Prefect]

Haha! I like that break down, Iron.

Sorry Tob's. Only read about 3 posts on this thread before posting. ;)

[Toby]

No, no. I didn't explain it well, although that was my point. You and Mika cleaned it up.

[Mika]

Originally posted by Ford Prefect
Mika makes a good point. As Iron said isometric exercises strengthen the muscles at the joint angle it is performed in as well as +/- 15 degrees of flexion. If you were untrained/undertrained to begin with, you will see increases in things like maximal strength/explosive strength to begin with because the nature of the increase of force output in such individuals. However, gains in those areas will eventually dwindle to nothing and the only thing you will be training is strength-endurance in that position.

And you made that point even clearer. Well put. Like I said, you have very good posts here :)

You frigging moralist, you :D

Peace :)

//mika