I lost the magic of kung fu

[Brooklyn Monk]

I think I lost something along the way

People have read my less than flattering accounts of studying Kung Fu at the Shaolin Temple, as well as my humorus stories about studying and fighting in Taiwan.

It is clear that I have dedicated myself to fighting, rather than to art. I trained and fought in thailand, which is just a huge gladiator academy.

now i am making kung fu movies in cambodia. in addition to my training for the movies, i just signed to fight (boxing) profesionally here in cambodia. there is a new foreign trainer here who is arranging title fights with WBC or one of the big leagues in USA. and i will probaly have a big televised fight in september (78 kg).

now that i am boxing again, the first good (fighting) training i have had since coming to asia, i think my opinion on fighting and kung fu is changing.

i love the boxing and fighting.

but maybe there is a place for the art as well.

when i was elevn or twelve years old, i believed in the magic of kung fu. i believed in the art. i thought it was something sacred and holy, and every night i said a prayer of thanks that i was being blessed with an opportuinity to learn these secrets, which had been passed down through teh ages, by generations of masters.

today, when i was supposed to be writing an article, I stumbled on to a website devoted to the TV show, KUNG FU.

Cain to his master: Old man, how is it that you can hear so much?
Master: Young student, how is it that you cannot?

re-reading all of those great philosophical quotes, i remembered why i began studying kung fu in the first place.

for the hour or so that it took me to read everything on the site, it was as if i had become a small kid again, and my belief in the mystery of kung fu was there. It reminded me why i began studying kung fu, and why I continued even when I showed no real aptitude for sports in general. It reminded me why I used to believe that every day of training brought me closer to enlightenment, and why I couldn't sleep at night, dreaming of my next training session, and of some day going to the shaolin temple, for real.

But why have I never found that in asia, not even for a second? was it because I was too proud? was I punching when I should have been listening?

But if it is me, why do I not know a single foreigner who ever found that wonder and magic in China and Taiwan?

I found the Thais and Cambodians refreshing, because at least they didn't pretend to have magic.

i'm not sure what that is worth. but i wanted to share. and if anyone has a constructive comment or even an insult, I'd be glad to listen.

did anyone else watch that show religiously as a kid? and, if so, did you experience disalusionment when you found that real Kung fu did not match Quai Chang Cains experience?

[David Jamieson]

good post.

Is this antonio? if so, I liked your articles man.

my view? well ok. :p

Training to attain kungfu is a deeply personal path in my opinion regardless of where geographically you undertake the path.

It doesn't matter if your teacher is western or eastern, it matters that you receive correct instruction. It matters that you maintain mindfulness in your practice.

No one can give you kungfu and no one can offer you a better way. All you can do is walk the path. That will sometimes lead you to the fighting aspects and other times will lead you to the art aspect. IN the end, it is a holistic approach that is required.

In youth, the fighting aspect will always hold more attraction it seems, but with age and experience you will look more for the other benefits.

It is quite recent the whole fixation amongst martial artists with getting to the proving grounds and leaving a mark, but in my opinion, this is a false path when regarded as the main objective and the art is lost if you stick to this although not entirely.

Fighting arts are honed in the forge of competition, but is kungfu just a fighting art or a living art? Isn't a fight a part of living afterall? What about all the other aspects of kungfu practice? The peace of mind, the awareness of your surroundings, the personal character development that comes with wins and losses, and so on.

Healthful practice is part of it too. Do the Chinese have it moreso than the west? I think it is not about geography or culture and it is a much more personal thing to seek and attain kungfu, afterall, if was geographical or cultural then we would expect an entire nation of kungfu masters in a given ethnicity. Which we know isn't true.

Do things because you enjoy doing them. If you love the practice, you will refine it into an artform that you can express in many degrees. Then you'll have kungfu in what you do.

cheers

[canglong]

did anyone else watch that show religiously as a kid? and, if so, did you experience disalusionment when you found that real Kung fu did not match Quai Chang Cains experience? I do believe my kung fu experience surpasses that of Caines. Find the root of your disallusion and release it and regain your focus.

[Banjos_dad]

I do believe my kung fu experience surpasses that of Caines. Find the root of your disallusion and release it and regain your focus

sig taggable gold.

[blooming lotus]

dude.....that is where the magic lays.......in the fact that these awesome folks ( such as yourself), continue through the unglamorous bs and soldier on to produce something glittery for others to share.........it's much like modelling.....in reality, the glam is the result of a whole buncha unglam hard-slog, but it's magic that there are folks, very rare and dedicated individuals, who foresake so much to produce a fantastical show............

as westerners sometimes it sucks out here, but hang in there because, even here you're semi-famous and people are waiting to hear what you're up to next...............

cheers BM

looking frwd to viewing your latest ;)

[TenTigers]

I feel you, man. I too, was disallusioned to find out that every teacher wasn't some spiritually elevated being like Master Po, or Master Kan. Imagine my dismay when I learned that many Sifus were members of Triads. Funny. One of the best teachers who brought the best out of me, who can look at my technique and make one comment and cause a dramatic improvement, who took me from a two-year losing streak, to first place championships, and this guy went from marrige to marrige, cheating, drinking, cocaine, you name it. His whole life was a total shambles, but he could teach. He taught me how to build champions. Develop an eye for detail, find that spirit and bring it out. Funny.
I also had the dream of meeting the old man in the take-out place who would take me under his wing. The only thing I learned is how to wrap dumplings. (my dumpling Kung-Fu is great!)
Then..THEN to learn that there are no monks, that the real monks are dead and gone, and thet Shaolin has been made into a tourist trap, that the monks there are wu-shu performers, who know no real application. That san-da has become accepted in China,worse than here in the USA, which means that even in China, they can't find people who can teach the real deal, and it is dying. Just kickboxing, which no doubt is great, but it is not kung-Fu.
Ok, now the good news. There ARE people who still teach real Kung-Fu, real applications, and teach real fighting with it, not kick/punch. There are Tai-Ch'i, Hsing-Yi, Ba-Kua,Hung-Ga,Wing Chun,Bak-Mei. Southern Praying Mantis schools, and others who fight with their Kung-Fu. You have to look, search, dig through alot of dirt to find gold. But it IS out there. (there ain't alot of it, but it's out there.)

[Shaolinlueb]

i persoinally hated the series kung fu. i loved watching the old shaw brothers movies. when you tlak about the amgic, i never expect to be able to do it. some things are just lost in time or i dont have time to practice that hard. did i want to be able to do some of the stuff the shaolin monks do? yes i did, can i achieve some of that stuff now? yes i can. i saw the kung fu "magic" die in the old days. does it still exist? yeah somewhere maybe. am i disapointed i wasnt able to achieve that? no not at all, its not my purpose. do i want to become a fighter that can take out 10 guys at once in the movies, yeah i would love too. but is it possible? most likely not. (yet my sihing got jumped by 8 gangsters in china and didnt get hit, he attacked two while they were charging at them and got away.) so for me there still is a magic in kung fu i still believe in. and i am not disapointed at all.

[Brooklyn Monk]

Wow! I want to thank all of you folks for writing in. I really appreciate it. Is anyone else writing from over seas? Or has anyone else studied over seas?

I guess the answer is, as many of you said, we each have to find our path, for ourselves. our unique path will be different from someone else's path. and only we can know when we have found it.

if i knew what the end result was supposed to be like, I would fidn it easier to work toward that goal.

my movie friends came down to my boxing training today. they trained about two and a half minutes and then quit. once again, my opinion of kung fu dropped about a hundred points. these guys can all jump in the air, spin,a nd kick three times before landing. but they can't complete a single round of boxing training. that tells me they have no heart. if that is the case, how could I respect them? and how could they ever win a fight?

I have lived in monasteries in china and thailand. I am seriously considering going to live in a monastery here, in cambodia. i like the buddhism here quite a lot. and my other friends, the ones who are or have been monks, are very peaceful. I would like to find that kind of peace. but at the same time i fight....

My movie friends will be going to train in beijing for several month, and i am considering going with them, and giving china another shot, or maybe going some place in chian where few people go, like Wu Dong, which has much less commercialism than henan.

copuld some of you folks tell me why you study kung fu?

does anyone get peace from kung fu?

have any of you been able to reconcile fighting and peace? (please, when you answer, answer from experience, not from a book. I've also read the books.)

[Banjos_dad]

I always saw other people who were training martial arts, and yes "Kung Fu" on TV and kung fu movies from Asia, and felt like they had special skills that "normal" people didn't have! And that to become skilled in martial arts was an achievement that distinguished people. Especially kung fu, it seemed mysterious and mystical to the outside observer.
The actualization of starting martial training arose in me, from not having gotten any fighting instruction at all as a kid & being kind of a doormat. My Dad's a pacifist, or he was then anyway. Finally as an adult I recognized the need to be able to define my own personal boundaries to others when necessary.
It has been really liberating.
I spent time in some schools where the curriculum was more superficial than what I need, but have come to find a good teacher & I feel like kung fu is a huge subject and worthy of a lifetime of investigation.
Mr G, don't you feel like it has been worthwhile overall, your martial arts journey? Your experience is extensive. Surely you found treasures here and there?
yr frnd, B_d

[GeneChing]

I knocked off a quick reply when you emailed me this privately, but I'll recap that a little for the benefit of this thread.

To me, the Kung Fu TV series was a minstral show. I was already studying martial arts at the time, although it was Judo and Shotokan. To see Carradine, who had no martial skill, with his eyes tied back, playing a Shaolin monk, well, that was messed up. It was like Al Jolson playing Shaka Zulu. That being said, the show was extremely significant in the cultural exchange between China and the USA. Today, the term 'grasshopper' is set in the common American vernacular, but you got to say it making squinty ***** eyes. Also the philosophy was largely derivative, and I've read the originals, so I have mixed feeling about the series. It never set me up for any disappointment, because from the onset, I could see through its delusions.

Reconciling fighting and peace should be easy on your level. You've lived in temples. Meditate on the guardian statues. In Buddhism, meditate on the door guards, Wei To and the Manjushri. At Shaolin, meditate on Jinnaluo. The answers are right there before you.

As for finding peace, I've found moments of peace. I haven't been able to sustain them. But I attained them through my practice, so I keep practicing in hopes of attaining some more.

I don't know why I practice any more exactly - many reasons. It's fun. It's my living. It keeps me out of trouble and in some semblence of health. I like it. I meet a lot of interesting people through it. Lots of reasons.

[SaekSan]

Hello,

Great thread BMonk.

Why do I study kung fu?

Considering your background you might understand my take on this... The simplest answer would be "because I choose to do so". We could go round and round as to the reasons why people “do it” but that would give meaning to it, ultimately meaning does not matter. Giving meaning to something doesn't really explain "why I do it", because my meanings, your meanings and their meanings are all different. What matters, is that they choose to do it, and they can attach any meaning they want to it (if they want to bind themselves emotionally to it), as you may attach any meaning you want to your practice (or anything). What should matter is the experience that we have due to the decision we make (but you probably know that).

Have I been able to reconcile fighting and peace?

I don’t feel any need to reconcile the two. I found that by fighting I was able to come to terms with things such as fear, hatred, anger, pride, pain, agony, joy and happiness (to name a few). Once I came to terms with these things I can now say that my life has had less and less “interference”. Because I came face-to-face with many of my inner “demons” I can now understand them (sometimes I continue to work on understanding some of them) and I am moving on. Fighting was/is a means to understand my true self, and through that I have found a form of “peace”… not eternal… not yet at least.

Then again you might have a completely different perception of what “peace” and “fighting” are than I do…


:)

[joedoe]

I practice kung fu because I enjoy it, and because I feel a great deal of loyalty to my teacher since he has invested so much time in teaching me.

How do I reconcile fighting with peace? For me it works on several levels. First, fighting taught me how to face fear and deal with it (to a certain degree anyway). In learning to do that I found that it made my life in general easier - so much of our negative emotions stem from fear.

Secondly, I gradually developed the mindset that I was learning the fighting arts not only for myself, but for others as well. Whether that meant to be able to fight for those who cannot, or whether it was to keep the art alive so that future generations can also enjoy the art is irrelevant. The point is that the reason for doing it is not purely a selfish one.

And I guess the third point is that learning and training in the fighting arts has given me some truly amazing experiences and gathered a fantastic group of friends around me. :)

[canglong]

originally posted by TenTigers
There ARE people who still teach real Kung-Fu, real applications, and teach real fighting with it, not kick/punch. There are Tai-Ch'i, Hsing-Yi, Ba-Kua,Hung-Ga,Wing Chun,Bak-Mei. Southern Praying Mantis schools, and others who fight with their Kung-Fu. You have to look, search, dig through alot of dirt to find gold. But it IS out there. (there ain't alot of it, but it's out there.) In full agreement with you TenTigers and no doubt there is a movement afoot to Return Shaolin to China all the necessary action in the proper time and place will need to occur but it will occur the only question for those who would appreciate such an endeavor is will you know Shaolin when you experience it yourself.

[David Jamieson]

these guys can all jump in the air, spin,a nd kick three times before landing. but they can't complete a single round of boxing training.

well, the training is different from what they have been doing, but i bet they could catch on quick if they had interest in it more.

I went through this too. Did 7 years of trad training in cma then over the last 4 have been doing more mixed stuff and at first I wasn't used to the different type of training. It took a few sessions to get in the groove, current result is I now train both and enjoy both.

anyway...just saying

cheers

[Brooklyn Monk]

Thanks again, ten tigers, gene, everyone had excellent points.

Gene mentioned about meditation. In shaolin, my Sifu was Xi Hung Fu, and we were responsible for the first stupa, on the left hand side, as you entered through the main gate. you walked past that silly theater, where they did the shaolin show, (which i have never seen), through the second big gate, and it was the next little building on the left. my training brother miao hai and i used to go there in the morning, sweep the floor, do our prayers, and then he would have me hold stances, for hours, while he rang the gong for the tourists who came to pray.

while i was hoilding stances, of course, i would meditate. but i often got distracted by the fact that miao hai would steal the money from the offering bowl.

in thailand, my monk, Pra Kru Ba, made us meditate for hours and hours. but he always instructed us to meditate on fighting. he said that ancient muay thai masters from the past would come and train him while he meditated.

I never found any peaec in either of those meditations.

my friends in taiwan who were monks were very peaceful. but they had very little martial arts training. and my friends in here in cambodia who are or were monks are the most peaceful people i have ever seen. they too have had very little martial arts training. one of their chriticisms of thailand is that the monks meditate about fighting. i dont think the practice of meditating about fighting is very wide spread in thailand. but the monks here see that as contrary to achiving peace.

for those of you who meditate, what do you meditate on? how does that relate to the rets of your practice of kung fu? and do you ever steal the money from the offering bowl?

[blooming lotus]

I might free-load if absolutely essential, but I'd make up for it in community contribution..no.not a theif.bjt you have to bear in mind, that even monks are developing souls and people...........kinda cute really..............

I train gongfu because it's one of the most effective expressions of myself ( aside from dancing and singing............entertainer extroaordinare turned ch'an buddhist ;)).............fighting or the abilty to is a glorious reprecussion............it's not the end but it is a bonus.there's a cretain confidence that comes from being able to do that that you just can't find elsewhere...............

I know nothing else but to move my body .or why I am alive......................to veg??.I don't think so...............

I daily take time out to contemplate and or meditate, and when I do, firt it's about what alis or troubles me, or if it's too too much, I just zone out and concentrate on innocnce and clarity of purpose.or alternately, I just blank out and empty my mind mediatating on building qi and identifying where the deficit lays and what thoughts I need to cultivate to grant me peace within myself..............then, if that's all saidand done, I mediate on the universe and see time before , time present and time to come......I think about karmic relations and my true place progressively in the spanse of time............this is a seroious buddhist concept and way of thinking, and may not be for everyone...but it brings me peace like nothing else does...............


I wish you well Antonio, stregnth, perserverance, confidence and serenity be yours always....

BL

[Shaolinlueb]

so brooklyn monk how did you become a movie star overseas?

[GeneChing]

I've never stole offerings. In fact, I do a lot of volunteer work for a Free Clinic and one of my jobs is to gather donations. But stealing donations is not unheard of - in fact, we recently had a tragic embezzlement case at the Clinic, on the order $750,000 to a million. Does that make me disgusted with the Clinic? Of course not. Quite the opposite, it makes me more commited. The clinic represents philsophies that I truly beleive in. Just because there are some challenged individuals alongside me there, some bad apples, that does not destroy what it represents to me. If anything, it firms up my resolve.

With monks, we often idolise them as some perfected being, but actually it's quite the opposite. These are people who left society. Some left it for religious reasons, but many left because they have issues with society. Many are working to change. That's what Shaolin is - it's a furnace to burn off samsara. Many people get toasted in that fire and never make it. Some flee. Some struggle. Some, like Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego, walk through the fire and never get burned.

[r.(shaolin)]

Gene wrote:
"To me, the Kung Fu TV series was a minstral show. . . . playing a Shaolin monk, well, that was messed up. That being said, the show was extremely significant in the cultural exchange between China and the USA."
.................
I would add, that the 1972 television series "Kung Fu" was instrumental and pivotal in the chain of events that led to PRC desire to rebuild Shaolin. It was this popular television series that made term "Shaolin" famous in the west and part of western vernacular. You could say it is direct and indirect driving force behind the long list of successful marketing projects since.

r.

[GeneChing]

To the best of my knowledge, the Kung Fu TV series never played in PRC. Even now, only a very few of the monks even konw what you're talking about if your reference that series. The first time that Abbot Yongxin ever heard of the series was when Carradine himself went to Shaolin and showed him an episode for his documentary. You can see Yongxin's expression when he first views in that documentary, and he looks puzzled but amuzed.

I would attribute the Shaw brothers movies and of course, Jet Li's Shaolin Temple (http://www.martialartsmart.net/dvd40021.html) to the reconstruction of Shaolin, but I don't think that Carradine's series had any significant effect at all.

[r.(shaolin)]

Hollywood's connection to the Hong Kong film industry goes back to the late 1960's. Warner Bros. had already successfully began distributing Kong Kong made kung fu movies in the US as well as exploring the possibilities of joint film projects. The ABC produced pilot and series was not only known and noticed by the Hong Kong film industry but in-fact triggered the hasty dubbing and adapting of Hong Kong martial arts movies for 'West' - to take advantage of the opportunity of it's success.
Through out the 70's the Hong Kong film industry produced many
"shaolin films" It was during this period the kung fu craze hit America. (This is not to take away any credit from Kwan Tak Hing and his earlier Wong Fei Hung films.)

Shaolin's sudden and remarkable popularity in the PRC at the tail end of the cultural revolution was very much driven by the western style entertainment / fad phenomena. The investment and world wide marketing of Shaolin by the PRC is no accident. We saw the same sudden phenomena in the USA 10 years earlier. Although Hong Kong movies were already part of a the sub-culture in the US, the series was the real start of successful mass marketing of Chinese martial arts in the US. First aired in early in '72 by 1973 it literally became the no. 1 TV series in the US over night.

The PRC's decision to invest in Shaolin was clearly influenced by a similar phenomena and marketing opportunity, i.e.. the Jet Li film. By the time the young Abbot came on the scene, the fad was well under way in the PRC.
That this fad bewildered and confused the few surviving old monks is understandable, but confusing Abbot Yongxin? . . . I don't think so.
Where will this (fad) will be in the next 5 to 10 years? Well. . . a few die-hards will still be around. Aging die-hards :-))))
r.

[GeneChing]

The western market, the US specifically, played a really minor role in the distribution of HK film. Sure, there was a wave of dubbed Shaw brothers movies and such, mostly to ghettos and thrid run theaters (remember this was before video), the whole kung fu wave in the wake of Bruce Lee, but it was minor in comparison to what happened in Asia. Places like India and and Indonesia were much closer and more accessible markets. Now I'm not saying that the US/HK film didn't have some effect, but it was negligible and even moreso, the effect of the Kung Fu TV show. When it came to US TV show imports, Hong Kong was more into the Green Hornet.

Shaolin in cinema was more an effect of Shaolin in literature. References to Shaolin were quite common in late Ming literature - from classical tales to pulp fiction wuxia. This persists until today - just look at the impact of Jin Yong.

If anything, I think the Kung Fu TV show was more of an effect - or symptom - than it was a cause. It had tremendous impact here. But it's a bit ethnocentric to think it had much impact over there, especially when no one really knows it over there at all. Look at that Carradine documentary again, when he goes to talk to Jackie Chan. Jackie tries to give Carradine some face, but it's obvious from his priceless expressions that it's a challenge, even for Jackie.

[Brooklyn Monk]

Someone asked how i got into the movies.

I came to cambodia to write a book about Khmer Kung Fu. my khmer kung fu contacts were making an action movie, and invited me to participate. over night i became the first foreigner in a kung fu movie in cambodia. so they re-wrote the script, gave me more scenes, and gave me second billing on the posters. Now i have offers for two more movies.

it looks like i will be here for a while.

I feel a little guilty, though, because i hate kung fu movies. i am all about fighting, and am learning to respect people who do incredible feats of Wu Shu or Biao Yuen. but i dont like the movies. they cheapen the art and have people like kanue reeves doing things real people like Lee Lien Jay or Chun Long can't do.

but i am also fighting professionaly here. so maybe that is just to compensate for the guilt of perpetuating the myth.

one of the interesting points i wanted to study, in writing my book, was how does a country with so much real fighting, Khmer Boxing is the national sport, how can they support kung fu at all? it is a mystery. thailand is the same way. They have so much good, real fighting, why watch kung fu movies?

but did we learn kung fu to fight and make movies? it all seems like a huge contradiction, and now i am part of it.

[YinYangDagger]

"They have so much good, real fighting, why watch kung fu movies?"

Because if you put "real fighting" in a movie, it turns out to be what people saw at the bar last weekend.

Kung fu on the other hand, in the movies, shows a lot of great skill (not talking Keanu here), technique, and the people that go and see movies wants to be entertained. If they want blood and "real fighting" they usually order UFC, Pride, etc. Big difference there....

Even the Thai movie Ong Bak can be seen as an example. From my readings here at the forum as well as other internet sites, Tony Jaa was using a "real" Thai style, yet it would have been d@mn boring if he just used a thigh kick / elbow combination in evey fight scene to knock his opponent out.

[brothernumber9]

Brooklyn Monk

suksobye money
Do you live in the south of Cambodia? Its cool you found a place to teach you Khmer boxing, I assume it's similar if not the same to Thai Boxing? My wife is Khmai and we hope to plan a trip either next year or 2006. I hope you keep posting some of your experiences so I can gain some insight and inspiration while I wait to go. Let me know when your movies become available overseas and I'll check em out.

Maybe there's a role in an Angelina Jolie movie in the future for you?

Good luck on your journey. Hearing that you adhere to budhist customs there implies that you adhere to Khmai customs as well, thats way cool. I am not buddhist but I follow along the protocols during bun and other services out of respect for my wife's family and culture. The monks and others in the Khmai community here have all received me warmly. So I'm glad to hear it is not different there.

[blooming lotus]

if nothing else, it promotes the arts for others or non practioners............

BM : are you sure the Jackies and Jets had no influence on your interest as a boy????...........

[Brooklyn Monk]

nrother num,ber 9

i live in phnom penh. i think it is amazing that overseas khmers adn those associated with overseas khmers are always writing to me or writing about cambodia. it is a country with a real sense of community and where even the people who have left have stayed connected.

i do learn khmer boxing, but i ahve no intention of fighting khmer boxing for money. i will be doing western boxing professionaly here. beyond that i learn khmer kung fu and wusu for the movies.

someone brought out the point that the depth of kung fu is there to placate soccer moms. i think that is a funny statement, but dead-on accurate.

a lot fo yuo pointed out taht it was the movies which gave kung fu huge exposure to the world. this is true. but i believe that it is a doublke edged sword. the movies also sold people a bill of goods which teachers can't deliver. for example, how many of you actualy do wire fighting or can run accross a lake while sword fighting?

[Brooklyn Monk]

Blooming lotus


it was actually david caradine who sparked my interest as a boy. when i was a boy, jet li was also a boy, so he wasnt making movies yet. jaki chan was basically unknown.

but i get your point, the movies are like a PR event for kung fu.

I hope that is right. I have never bee a fan of kung fu films. there are only a few i consider good movies "Dragon, the Bruce Leë Story" is amazing. I have watched it like 100 times. I appreciate "Enter the Dragon" for being a cutting edge classic. The newer Jacky Chan movies "Rush Hour" and "Shanghai Noon," are excellent movies even if you don't like Kung Fu. "Ali," is also amazing. and of course, the original "Kung Fu" TV SHow.

[YinYangDagger]

LOL BM - Every movie you named I thought SUCKED. I'm an old Shaw Brothers fan, but we each have our own opinion :p

[Shaolinlueb]

man i'd love to make a movie in a foriegn country lol that would be hot yo.

[r.(shaolin)]

......
The western market, the US specifically, played a really minor role in the
......

Although Bruce Lee was popular in Hong Kong before his role in the Green Hornet it was after Bruce Lee became an international star, that Chinese martial arts became popular internationally.


Underground to over-ground is very much part of how American consumer cultural has worked since the 50's. Having said that, keep in mind that in 1973 Fists of Fury, Deep Thrust - the Hands of Death and Five Fingers of Death were listed in Variety as top box office draws - not too shabby. This would not have happened with out great success of the TV series both the 'Green Hornet' and 'Kung Fu'.

Through Bruce Lee's role in Green Hornet via the TV series 1966-67 and the comics (Green Hornet comics included bios and background on kung fu), many people in the west (including my self) were first exposed to the Chinese martial arts. If you look at the dates you will notice that most of the internationalization of Hong Kong cinema took place the 1970's. I think that includes India and Indonesia etc. Bruce Lee became know there after his successful exposure in the US.

Kwan Tak Hing on the other hand, although big in Hong Kong long before Bruce Lee, did not have any impact on the internationalization of kung-fu.

In-spite of the PR spin that Shaolin monks have made the name famous through out the world, it was generations of lay students, lay schools organization and secular writers that have kept the name alive over the centuries. In more recent times it has been the entertainment industries both Asian and Western that accounts for much of the success Shaolin is experiencing.
..........
YinYang Dagger wrote:
LOL BM - Every movie you named I thought SUCKED.
............
Although I agree the kung fu series was a caricature of Shaolin, it also had a positive side. Unlike the 'bloody action" of the Hong Kong kung fu movies, (parodied in the Kill Bill movies) Kung fu presented a 'peace and brotherhood'
side of the martial arts. There was no spurting blood in the series. Villains were subdued and rarely killed.
r.

[johngreenhow]

Antonio,

A little off topic for this thread, but at least I know you read this one...

Just wanted to say that the San Da vs. Muay Thai article was (for me) your best yet. Nice one.

John

[blooming lotus]

ditto.........top article.........In fact, kind of considering thailand now myself as a result. For ma of course..........How about a run down

I know they speak english, but
Where should we go for best instruction, how much is cost of living, what facilities can we find ......etc etc......Particularly inteested in the monestary teachng.how much is that, is it easy to get a shifu???..oh and food........what can we eat there??


Cheers BM



Ps.......judging by your artice and lack of elbows at shaolin, that'd have to mean mizong is wushu????

[cerebus]

Heh, heh. First you were all Gung-Ho for Shaolin, then you were returning to Australia to "pick up some Wing Chun certs", now you're considering Muay Thai. Got a little Attention Deficit Disorder going on there BL? :D By the time you get settled down, you'll be well versed in "Chop Suey- Do".

[blooming lotus]

actually, it was a comment from yourself about hangng in there, good luck, soldier on etc etc that kinda made me review my plan......I just want to study gongfu, and at the mo, with the state of the temple and moves etc, it's really not as viable for foreigner to study there full time until the Tianjin site opens in '08. I thought about WC in Aus, but generally speaking, western instruction is BS. Appologies to everyone I no doubt just offended. I did read Anthonys' article and I think the throws and elbows he described would be a nice addition to my arsenal. God knows where I'll end up........I'll go where the gongfu is, and shaolin I will always always carry with me where-ever I am and return often.

Cheers C'bus :cool:

[cerebus]

Cheers! :D

[blooming lotus]

;) :p

[johngreenhow]

After my 6/7 months in Shaolin, I came here to Australia to earn some hard cash to get back to Asia. Met some Southern Mantis folk in HK on my way, and have just started training in that here in Sydney - same people. There's always kungfu.

Quality teaching matters, but so does what you put in. If you've got Shaolin with you - then I think you gain something from any class, anywhere.

And as to going lots of places and learning lots of things - all the better, just gives you a wider view of the world and a better understanding.

I did hear about Muay Laos on my way thru, and figured it was just the local Muay Thai - besides, there's enough automatic weapons about in the countryside that no-one'd bother with kung fu..

Personally, something I'd like to learn more of is some of the Japanese locking / grappling stuff. Only, Japan's a little expensive for me. It's supposed to exist in Shaolin ("qi na?", but it's very hard to find anyone who knows much about it.

The best I managed was the stuff my Jiaolian used to teach to those army guys in the barracks on the way out to the temple. Powerful stuff, but not as smooth as some of the things I've seen Shorinji kempo (sp?) or Jujitsu guys do when they get hold of your arm...

Anyway, safe journey...

[blooming lotus]

dong......I understand, and I think personally I'm looking at incorperating native Japanese arts ( more ninjitsu and ??? some judo type jazz), better elbows,hk aerials and whatever else I discover meantime...... and if I can pick up some forms that'll give me something I can apply real life or ring - wise, I'll consider it a bonus.


kow the feeling on the budget, while being a foreign teacher or even a teachers teacher / lecturer is locally in asia quite lucrative, it comes at a price.......you are expected to live breath eat and sleep work and on 3 hrs a night and off/on food poisoning and dodgey nutrition ( even the students complain)........training is twice the mission it should be......



cheers John, sure you'll make it back and better equipped when you do ;)..........

Ps.....what did you find gongfu wise sydney side???

[Brooklyn Monk]

John,

good to hear from you again. please send me an email at my hotmail address when you get a chance. i was wondering if you were still in contact with anyone from shaolin.

i wish i had some answers about kung fu. now i am fighting professionaly again, and feel like i have never been further from where i started.

i may be fighting in australia soon. let me know where and when you will be there.

antonio_graceffo@hotmail.com

[GeneChing]

...and the rest of you - my email imploded two weeks ago and we're still trying to sort it all out. Check your emails to me and make sure that they are going to gene@kungfumagazine, not info@kungfumagazine. Also, if anyone has emailed me this month and has not recieved an answer, that email was probably lost. Please try again.

[Shaolinlueb]

Originally posted by GeneChing
...and the rest of you - my email imploded two weeks ago and we're still trying to sort it all out. Check your emails to me and make sure that they are going to gene@kungfumagazine, not info@kungfumagazine. Also, if anyone has emailed me this month and has not recieved an answer, that email was probably lost. Please try again.


i was suppossed to send you something but I do not remember................ you probably dont remember either. lol

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by Brooklyn Monk
John,

good to hear from you again. please send me an email at my hotmail address when you get a chance. i was wondering if you were still in contact with anyone from shaolin.

i wish i had some answers about kung fu. now i am fighting professionally again, and feel like i have never been further from where i started.

i may be fighting in australia soon. let me know where and when you will be there.

antonio_graceffo@hotmail.com


I'm about to hit Aus soon ( sep -ish, ?? post shaolin fest 04) myself, being that I can't find and no -one here'll help me find a link or school elsewhere....it's risky .......moving on though, ....please let us know where you'll be fighting..........I'm confident in your abilities and It'd be a pleasure to make the hike to check out your stuff in the ring.cheers antonio ;)....BL

[GeneChing]

You were supposed to send me $50. ;)

OK, I don't remember either. dimmakseminar was supposed to send me some sparring video of a monk vs. some TKD champ, but I can't remember you promising me anything. No worries. Make it $100. :p

[Brooklyn Monk]

Blooming Lotus

I dont know for sure when i will be in australia. but i will be going there. if you are looking for a teacher, i have contacts in melbourn (spelling?) and they would prbably be able to direct you to teachers in other parts of the country.

[blooming lotus]

cheers.........I do have something half teed up but I'll pm you closer to time

[diego]

Originally posted by GeneChing
I knocked off a quick reply when you emailed me this privately, but I'll recap that a little for the benefit of this thread.

To me, the Kung Fu TV series was a minstral show. I was already studying martial arts at the time, although it was Judo and Shotokan. To see Carradine, who had no martial skill, with his eyes tied back, playing a Shaolin monk, well, that was messed up. It was like Al Jolson playing Shaka Zulu. That being said, the show was extremely significant in the cultural exchange between China and the USA. Today, the term 'grasshopper' is set in the common American vernacular, but you got to say it making squinty ***** eyes. Also the philosophy was largely derivative, and I've read the originals, so I have mixed feeling about the series. It never set me up for any disappointment, because from the onset, I could see through its delusions.

Reconciling fighting and peace should be easy on your level. You've lived in temples. Meditate on the guardian statues. In Buddhism, meditate on the door guards, Wei To and the Manjushri. At Shaolin, meditate on Jinnaluo. The answers are right there before you.

As for finding peace, I've found moments of peace. I haven't been able to sustain them. But I attained them through my practice, so I keep practicing in hopes of attaining some more.

I don't know why I practice any more exactly - many reasons. It's fun. It's my living. It keeps me out of trouble and in some semblence of health. I like it. I meet a lot of interesting people through it. Lots of reasons.

i don't have much experiance with my kung fu but i'm glad you posted Gene cuz it helped me put into words what i wanted to say before i got to your post and was unsure if i was going to reply or not due to my lack of experiance:)

the magic of hollywood in kung fu never amazed me like caine is a fluezy...the real magic monks to me are like those i think it was vietnamese monks who set themself on fire fighting foriegn christians etc

to have that heart and will is amazing to me and that is what i love about bhuddism and all righteous spiritual peeps....that selfless giving

i've always known how to take care of myself but haven't gotten to test out my kung fu in a fight yet cuz i stopped being stupid and getting into fights when i started studying kungfu...i remember always visualizing applications while going to bed when i first started...like i would always think about skillfull ways to destroy a foe which i feel kinda took the fight out of me and turned the punk into a cool guy

so yeah the magic is there for me ...it also may have something to do with hiphop like in breakdance you are always battling your opponnent or mc battles but it's all about skills not ego so that probably helped me bridge fighting and peace...i look at the kung fu legends as meditations and just like Gene said about the gaurdian statues and the vietnamese monks who set themself on fire...meditating on these things fills me with that magic like it gives me an artfull way to mentally empower myself kinda like football jocks will slam heads with each other before a game so like it just gives me a lot of motivation etc...i mean dudes just sat there burning fighting what they saw as a wrong and i mean what is f'n with that...caine is a putz compared to the real magic humans can come up with like that mother with a broken leg who dragged herself up the hill lifted the car and got her baby out from underneath or whatever crazy story of willpower mind over matter people can come up with when the going gets tough...puts on carribean queen jumps into MABU singing along with Mr.Ocean :)

[blooming lotus]

Personally I do ma to strectch and challenge my yang ( body to the same extent I do my yin( my thoughts and spirit) keeping a healthy balance...............but some very nice words Deigo, thx for sharing ;)

[Red Rain]

when i was elevn or twelve years old, i believed in the magic of kung fu. i believed in the art. At 12 years of age dreams and reality are often inseparable at times.


But why have I never found that in asia, not even for a second? was it because I was too proud? was I punching when I should have been listening?

But if it is me, why do I not know a single foreigner who ever found that wonder and magic in China and Taiwan?

I found the Thais and Cambodians refreshing, because at least they didn't pretend to have magic. China is large in size and just as vast in the depths of it's intrigue, a person could only hope that their experiences were comparable to that of the size of China.

[Shaolinlueb]

dude all you need is pixie dust and to think happy thoughts, and the magic will come back :D

[MeatTosser]

Hey Antonio Graceffo, first off, I just wanted to say, that I respect ya a lot. I think it's good that you've gone to great lengths to explore different systems of martial arts in several places/regions. I've read several of your articles, (including your mis-adventures in Shaolin, heh heh) and they're all pretty solid.
However, you say you lost some magic along the way. But you must've gotten some good things along the way as well, right?
You had said:
"People have read my less than flattering accounts of studying Kung Fu at the Shaolin Temple, as well as my humorus stories about studying and fighting in Taiwan..."

But I remember reading you article on some Taiwanese teachers giving Push-Hands training sessions, and you had joined in those. Throughout the vast majority of that article you seemed to be pretty positive about the training there, as far as I can recall. You even mentioned that a 70-something-year-old man challenged you to some push-hands, and tossed you around like a rag doll. (An excerpt from the article: '...he had me fight with one of the old men who was less than five feet tall and very slim. He looked like an extra in a Vietnam movie. I kept expecting him to start yelling, "I no see VC. VC go other village. GI number one. VC number ten!" But he didn't do that. Instead, he just beat the crap out of me.') Did you ever stop by and train there again?
Also, on your dis-illusionment on modern Shaolin, I'm glad that you go balls out and show that most "fighting monks" in the temple aren't taught traditional boxing, just Modern Wushu; however, I do believe that there are a few monks (or ex-monks) left around that know the REAL traditional shaolin boxing methods. Have you heard of Shi DeCheng? As far as I know, both Gene Ching and Dr. Rich Russell (Doc, of Russbo.com fame) have had a chance to meet him. He spent several years at the temple, and he was one of the few 'martial' monks that were taught traditional shaolin boxing.
China is a huge country, and I'm pretty sure there are still a few masters that teach the real fighting kungfu (NOT Modern Wushu). Have you met Feng Wu, or Pengcheng Chen? They've written several articles on Gongfu training, and it seems they have some good, solid training. I think they're from Fujian Province. Also, have you been to Hong Kong? I've heard that Wan Kei Ho (William Wan) is an excellent Choy Lee Fut and muscle/tendon changing Qigong teacher. Anyway, no matter where you go in your journey from here, hopefully you'll find what you want, good luck.

JohnGreenhow said: "...Personally, something I'd like to learn more of is some of the Japanese locking / grappling stuff. Only, Japan's a little expensive for me. It's supposed to exist in Shaolin ("qi na?", but it's very hard to find anyone who knows much about it."

Hmm, do you live close to Boston, MA? Dr. Yang Jwing-Ming is one of the most well-known Chin'na (Qin'na) masters in the USA. Probably one of the best White Crane/ Shaolin Long Fist teachers in the States today.
On a side note, Antonio, I remember you had mentioned that before you even went to visit Taiwan or Shaolin Temple, you had already had a Sifu in United States. Who was he and what style/system did he teach you? You still train with him?
(Sorry, I know this post is huge, but I had a lot of things to say, heh heh heh.)

[blooming lotus]

BM


on the above, also been following your progress and tracking schools and stops...........I'm half between Aus ( for solid nutrition if nothing else.as yibanban as most kf instruction is there ). Taiwan ( where I just got ofered x amount of $$ plus gongfu lessons .........style and branch unknownbut extra elbows would be fabulous thx....)..and japan ( loving my ninjitsu and extra grappling skill especially native styled is on the itenerary but undated )


Really looking for an experienced piece of aadvice......to the exclusion of all else. I'll go where - ever I need to.................

what do'you think???......oh, and what can I expect in Thailand???........big ask........and as a gongfu sister in earnest, props and cheers .............

[diego]

lmao @ VC #10

[GeneChing]

Last I heard from Antonio, he was having some problems accessing our forum from some internet cafes somewhere in Asia. His latest article has been receiving some attention on the main forum (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=32162).

[Brooklyn Monk]

BM

Thanks for reading my articles so intently. You are right on so many counts. I got so much out of studying in taiwan and china, the US, Thailand, and now cambodia. I cant complain. the cultural experience, the fitness, new ideas...

I am just not always sure which way I am going with the arts. I am fighting professionaly again now. Training in cambodia, and fighting in Thailand next week.

Is fighting what it is about? probably not. but then when i meet someone who claims to master this or that, but who can't fight, I have no respect for him.

I will keep training, fighting, learning...probably will be studying indonesia or vietnam next.

every art seems to think they are the best. but as for fighting only muay thai, BJJ, and boxing impress me.

If I can get myself up a bit earlier I will add kung fu back into my daily regimen of boxing and movie kung fu and see if there is something i have forgotten.

but when i was a kid i was so excited about the magic and energy of kungfu. as a fighetr i see it in very practical terms. the more cardio i have the better i can fight. that, and i need as much sparing as I can get.

but then you spend your day hitting people or hitting bags. is that any way to spend your time?

[MeatTosser]

Graceffo said: "Is fighting what it is about? probably not. but then when i meet someone who claims to master this or that, but who can't fight, I have no respect for him."

I definitely agree with you. Fighting isn't everything to the Chinese boxing arts, but it should always be of utmost importance, in my humble opinion. They're called "Martial" arts after all, aren't they? If they do not teach solid, practical hand-to-hand combat methods, then they shouldn't even be called martial arts. :) I respect the gongfu, or other teachers out there that are very no-nonsense about what they teach. Have you heard of Bak Mei? I hear that this system has quite a few teachers today that still teach some good, no-nonsense traditional gongfu. Hmm, you're pretty close to the Indonesia area and all that, right? Maybe you could find a good Kuntao-Silat teacher? By the way, I had previously asked you who was your original teacher, the one who taught you your first martial arts? You never responded on that, heh heh heh. Anyway, whatever yer doing right now man, I wish ya the best. Good luck in your upcoming fight.

[blooming lotus]

feeling Graceffo here, and looking for new kf hot spots..... suggestions folks??? ching

[bungle]

I think i'm gonna have a rant.

It seems to me that shaolin kung fu was seen to be used as a transformational tool that also brought about combat efficiency.

Well, I've not read one post on this forum indicating any of you have achieved any of the skills that i've read about.

People seem to think every has to be hard and difficult and a long slog. It just isn't true. In fact it's just the opposite.

The closest to the real thing is www.wahnam.com.

Now their traditional values rang my alarm bells since from my modern perspective (being a child of the 80s) i feel uncomfortable lending that much respect and and social control.

Also, 30 minutes of qi gong everyday and night along with kung fu practice seems like too much hard work. Also you gotta lay down the grand for the intensive and 500 for local courses. Well, i never gelled with the idea anyway.

Anyway. I think some of you are familiar with my ideas and advice on the transformational bit.

So the martial aspect. This is connected to the transformation bit believe it or not and in a VERY direct way. I'll put it in a really simple way. There is your true self (beingness, god, buddha nature) and when you fight well thats your buddha nature coming through. The kung fu is simply a way of unveiling the buddha nature in the application of combat. OF COURSE, it doesn't matter what area of your life you work on. Unveiling beingness is unveiling beingness and it effects your WHOLE life no matter which part of life you happen to focus on.

So, IT IS EXACTLY like Bruce Lee said. Fight intuitively. UNFORTUNATELY poor Bruce neglected to mention the part about revealing the jewel of the lotus. In other words, you need to remove your ego. Your ego is the obstacle to every sucess in live. The ego is limitation.


Believe it or not EXTERNAL and INTERNAL are one and the same. Take a book like "power vs force" explains this well. The external strike is using internal force just a lot less.

Now. You'd really have to speak to a master understand how this mechanism works.

There are easier ways to do this. If you are TRULY interested in going for freedom or mastering kung fu. Stop being a seeker and become a finder:

www.releastechnique.com

If you can afford it buy the abundance course AND the resistance course AND the growing up course.

I'm currently beginning the "what do i want to do when i grow up course". It's the deepest tape course. It works on the fear of dying and wanting to be seperate. The root of everything. This course can take you the whole way.

I think something you'll be suprised about is when your aware of your feelings and thoughts and you are put on the spot and forced to decide to go free you'll realise that this decision is a hell of a lot more scary than you realised.

Enlightenment is death of the ego. Because you think you're your ego. You therefore think you are going to die if you go free. So it's a scary thing to face. This is the reality of it all. It's not fairy tale anymore. IT's here and now, quick and effective.

You can ***** foot about the edges your whole life and guess what? You'll get ***** foot results so it's up to you.

At the end of the day. It doesn't matter what we achieve or do in life. We're going to die and lose it all. There is something bigger than life and personally i'm going for it.

At least watch the infomercial and listen to Larry Crane talk. He's a straight talker and in this world of smoke and mirrors that's exactly what we need. It's like a breath of fresh air.

Now, i know i come across as a salesman or preacher sometimes. I'm not, it's just that this really seems like the best advice i can give. I try not to over do it. But i only really use this forum when i'm home with my parents anyway. So i'm sure you can forgive this indiscretion.

[blooming lotus]

I think to get a hard core shaolin gongfu experience, being the nature of it, you'd need to take an indocrination and train in the temple ( which by the way I'd do tommorow if possible ) . People may jump up and down about that claim, but there are so many schools who don't teach the other aspects of shaolin that their forms and styles , let alone general IMO s etc hardly embody the concept. I do empatically believe that you cannot have one without the other or what you're really practicing is some morphed hand-me-down strand . I guess , being the situation with foreign acceptance into temples on that level at present, that would most likely be why we are just not finding what we came for.

[johngreenhow]

Hi,

I'm at john_greenhow@hotmail.com.

Antonio, you should have my email by now. I'm sure you'll do well fighting here - I'll be there at the ring-side.

BL - I know of a number of kungfu classes around Sydney. If nothing suits, then join me training in the park! After all your travels and training, I'm sure I'll have something to learn.

Oh, and finding what you went to Shaolin for? One thing: "You can't always get what you want, but if you try sometimes, you just might find, you get what you need."

All the best,

John

[MeatTosser]

Originally posted by johngreenhow
Hi,


Oh, and finding what you went to Shaolin for? One thing: "You can't always get what you want, but if you try sometimes, you just might find, you get what you need."

All the best,

John


Haha, classic song. :D

[GeneChing]

I was standing in line with Mr. Jimmy
And man, did he look pretty ill
We decided that we would have a soda
My favorite flavor, cherry red
I sung my song to Mr. Jimmy
Yeah, and he said one word to me, and that was "dead"

When I go to Shaolin, I make a conscious decision to be the singer of songs, not Mr. Jimmy. Most people in line for their Shaolin sodas wind up being Mr. Jimmy. :cool:

[blooming lotus]

John,

Isnt it a boitch that we travel travel this far to only discover what we were looking for was not here after all.

Not sure if I'll even make it home ( as in ever ) at this stage, but soldiering on , and providing I can still study for a hm phd or for medicine, i'll go where the teachings at. Love to trade notes, and If I EVER get home 'i'll be in touch. So much news and no-one to share it with :(



happy training folks! :)

[Songshan]

Well the Brooklyn Monk has struck again. I actually found the post very informative and insightful by Antonio. I do read posts that I don't agree with to view the authors opinions. However, I disagree on how he feels and what he lost. The first time I really read Antonio's posts I was sort of offended by them. Here I was training day in and day out under one of the "monks" only to read about how he (Antonio) was scammed at Shaolin and that all he learned was modern wushu. But to me the posts seemed a lot deeper. Not only was he discussing his journey and discussed his unpleasant trip but it seemed like to me that he was trying to discredit modern Shaolin all together.....dismissing it all for "wushu" as many of the anti Shaolin martial artists call it. That is what bothered me the most. So I said to myself he has a right to post his experiences and what he believes. Its human nature not agree with everyone all the time on all things.

Antonio is no doubt a martial artist. A hard styled martial artist at that. I feel Antonio has scratched only the surface of martial arts. His continous search for the "perfect fighting style" or the "perfect fight" is nomadic at best. Winning means mastering the art? Or to have found the true fighting style you seek? No way. We all have our reasons for studying martial arts. For me Shaolin Kung Fu isn't just a fighting style. There's a deeper meaning in it for me. It's a way of life especially if you incorporate it in your daily life routine. Perhaps one day Antonio will discover that there is more to studying martial arts than fighting in the ring. I am quite content with where I am. Best of luck!! :)

[GeneChing]

You know, I just was privy to some amazing private video, all shot inside Shaolin Temple, the fruits of some 9 years of research there. At the request of the filmmaker, I can't divulge much more about it yet, but it was amazing footage of the internal traditional temple stuff that NO ONE is teaching outside yet. It's material that I've been trying to get at for years, but most won't allow themselves to be filmed showing this stuff. That researcher is the next one to watch - we just met for the first time last week after lengthy email/phone correspondance, and he's got some phenomenal stuff, but because it's in development for a major project, I have to keep it secret for a little while longer.

Antonio's experience was quite valid and it mirrors what has happened to other peopole who have gone to Shaolin, including me. But it would be shallow to say that you penetrated the temple and found modern wushu/sanda only. Because it takes years to penetrate the temple. Shaolin keeps its secrets. And so do we... ;)

[emre]

What amazed me about Antonio's articles, was that here was a guy who went half-way around the world to study CMA, and he didn't seem to have the faintest idea of the multitude of styles in existence and what he wanted to learn exactly.

I don't know if it's just the way he spins things, but reading his articles he really sounds like he was just done watching David Carradine when he packed his bags and left, without ever picking up a single book about CMA, or visiting any of the number of schools in NY from almost every single style.

There was a whole article where he talked about tui shou like it was a kung fu style for crying out loud.

[Serpent]

Antonio. You searched high and low (and are still searching) for something. You found that Shaolin wasn't it. You have started making movies that you don't believe in and all the time you are fighting in the simple, elegant arena of western boxing. You train the boxing, because it's the only art that gives you any peace as it allows you to fight. You train the wushu for the movies, but you don't like them.

So, you are either doing things you don't believe in or you're training to fight in a considerably taxing arena.

Have you ever stopped for long enough to consider just exactly what it is that you're searching for?

[norther practitioner]

You know, I just was privy to some amazing private video, all shot inside Shaolin Temple, the fruits of some 9 years of research there. At the request of the filmmaker, I can't divulge much more about it yet, but it was amazing footage of the internal traditional temple stuff that NO ONE is teaching outside yet. It's material that I've been trying to get at for years, but most won't allow themselves to be filmed showing this stuff. That researcher is the next one to watch - we just met for the first time last week after lengthy email/phone correspondance, and he's got some phenomenal stuff, but because it's in development for a major project, I have to keep it secret for a little while longer.


:rolleyes:

Tease....



:p

[phoenix-eye]

"I was standing in line with Mr. Jimmy
And man, did he look pretty ill
We decided that we would have a soda
My favorite flavor, cherry red
I sung my song to Mr. Jimmy
Yeah, and he said one word to me, and that was "dead"

When I go to Shaolin, I make a conscious decision to be the singer of songs, not Mr. Jimmy. Most people in line for their Shaolin sodas wind up being Mr. Jimmy"

Gene, that really was just a beautiful post.....

Now I know why you write articles on kung fu and I write reports on risk management....

Sing........sing a song............

PE

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by GeneChing
You know, I just was privy to some amazing private video, all shot inside Shaolin Temple, the fruits of some 9 years of research there. At the request of the filmmaker, I can't divulge much more about it yet, but it was amazing footage of the internal traditional temple stuff that NO ONE is teaching outside yet. It's material that I've been trying to get at for years, but most won't allow themselves to be filmed showing this stuff. That researcher is the next one to watch - we just met for the first time last week after lengthy email/phone correspondance, and he's got some phenomenal stuff, but because it's in development for a major project, I have to keep it secret for a little while longer.

Antonio's experience was quite valid and it mirrors what has happened to other peopole who have gone to Shaolin, including me. But it would be shallow to say that you penetrated the temple and found modern wushu/sanda only. Because it takes years to penetrate the temple. Shaolin keeps its secrets. And so do we... ;)


hmmm.....:) :) :)


Gene is so so right!!


Folks come here for a year or 2 ( and as foreigners (wai guo yen ) and think they had a "real" experience when in fact , we 've had nothing of the sort.


Shaolin is sacred and have endured alot of hardship from foreign contact in past , so you think you can rock up and expect them to spill their beans??!!!

We really have no idea of what they go through in prac, and it's a gift to appreciate we don't.


hmmm............nearly makes me want to stay ..........

[johngreenhow]

What do you mean "a real experience"? Did you have a fake one? Didn't you get up every morning with aching legs, run up a big sodding hill and then practise jibengong and forms all day? Didn't you, basically, work your arse off and improve your kungfu in a unique environment that so few laowai are lucky enough to spend time in?

Most of the (30,000+?) students in DengFeng do nothing more than that. If they're good enough, they'll make it to the WushuBinGuan and make into a performance team. A few of them will stick it out for over 10 years and still not learn killer-death-touches or any other esoteric kungfu secrets. Most of them will join the police, the army or just head off into normal life. I met a few sanluo drivers who had spent 3 years in one school or another.

I have no illusions about having "penetrated the temple" or having learnt anything I couldn't have learnt in London, New York or Sydney. We may not go through what the temple initiates go through but we do have the opportunity to go through what the bulk of the DengFeng students do, and in my opinion that's just as "real" an experience as you could hope to have.

I dunno. I guess all I'm saying is that I know there was a lot that I didn't get to see but training with the kids in modern wushu and sanda was enough for me, it left me with a whole bunch of lessons that I've taken with me and I couldn't have asked for anything else.

[blooming lotus]

lol...

about as real as any foreigner's getting for now ha :cool:


I think you misunderstand. I was working nearby songshan but didn't have time to hang out there long and didn't train at the wushuguan ( though I did a spend a day checking it out ). Still know the experience you speak of and have been having them all over China.

Just didn't want to mislead you, but a future hook up'll sweet. Let you know . :)

[emre]

So Gene,

Are these internal Shaolin forms completely different from the ones you've mentioned seeing before, like the internal version of Hong Quan that I think you said you witnessed?

Is it a style ( or styles?) that is known to the outside world, but was thought to be lost in Shaolin or is it something unheard of before?

[GeneChing]

BL will tell you all about what a tease I can be (and what a tease comment that is, eh?)

In all seriousness, there's several reasons why we've published so much of Antonio's work on the net. He's an edgy writer who walks the walk. He may not be that scholarly, but what he might lack in literate research, he makes up for with sweat. When he first sent hisShaolin tale (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=411), it flew in the face of a lot of things that I was saying about Shaolin, but I felt he wrote from the heart, and far be it for me to say that I have the only perspective on Shaolin. Since then, Antonio and I have kept up a correspondence between his article submisssions, and I've found him to be a fine companion on the warrior path, despite being in different continents and taking totally different approaches. I have a lot of respect for his work, which is why I support his writing and encourage the editorial board here to do so. Given the polarity of reactions to his articles, I'm very pleased. There will be another one of his up soon.

As for the internal sets, yes, they are the same as the the internal version of Xiaohong I mentioned, but there are several of them and I have yet to identify it all. I have yet to identify all of the external versions. The internal temple stuff is much harder to get at. Mostly, they seem to be alternate interpretations of the Songshan forms with which we are already familiar, but to be honest, I've only started to tap this stuff and I have a long way to go. Ask me again in a few years. Or better yet, just keep up with what I publish (http://store.martialartsmart.net/19341.html). Now that's a tease, for sure. ;)

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by GeneChing
BL will tell you all about what a tease I can be (and what a tease comment that is, eh?)

;)

Sure!! I don't really understand your IMO Here Gene, but here it is folks .......


£Ô£È£Å¡¡£Ç£Õ£Ù¡¡£É£Ó¡¡£Á¡¡£Ô£Å£Á£Ó£Å¡¡£Æ£Ï£Ò¡¡£Ô£È £Å¡¡£Æ£Ï£Ì£Ì£Ï£×£É£Î£Ç¡¡£Ò£Å£Á£Ó£Ï£Î£Ó£º

£á£º¡¡£_¡¡£Á£Ð£Ð£Å£Á£Ì£Ó¡¡£Ô£Ï¡¡£Ù£Ï£Õ£Ò¡¡£¢£Ó£Ð£É £Ò£Ô£Õ£Á£Ì¡¡£¢¡¡£Ó£É£Ä£Å¡¡£¬¡¡£Ò£Ï£Ð£Å£Ó¡¡£Ù£Ï£Õ¡¡ £É£Î¡¡£Ô£È£Å£Î¡¡£Ì£Å£Á£Ö£Å£Ó¡¡£Ù£Ï£Õ¡¡£×£Á£Î£Ô£É£Î £Ç¡¡£Í£Ï£Ò£Å£®£®£®£®£®£®


£â£º¡¡£Ó£Õ£Ð£Ð£Ï£Ò£Ô£Ó¡¡£Ù£Ï£Õ¡¡£Ô£È£Å£Î¡¡£Ä£Ï£Å£Ó £Î£§£Ô¡¡£Â£Á£Ã£Ë¡¡£Ù£Ï£Õ¡¡£×£È£Å£Î¡¡£È£Å¡¡£Ô£È£É£Î £Ë£Ó¡¡£Ù£Ï£Õ¡¡£§£Ö£Å¡¡£Ç£Ï£Ô¡¡£É£Ô¡¡£Õ£Î£Ä£Å£Ò¡¡£Ã £Ï£Î£Ô£Ò£Ï£Ì


£ã£º¡¡¡¡£Í£Á£Ë£Å£Ó¡¡£Á¡¡£Ä£Á£Ô£Å¡¡£Ô£È£Å£Î¡¡£É£Ôin £Å£Ò£Á£Ò£Ù¡¡£Ã£È£Á£Î£Ç£Ås on both sides ¡¡£Ì£Á£Ô£Å£Ò¡¡£Á£Î£Ä¡¡£Ù£Ï£Õ¡¡£Ç£Å£Ô¡¡£Ó£Ô£Ï£Ï£Ä¡¡ £Õ£Ð¡¡£¨¡¡£Ô£È£Å¡¡£Ç£Õ£Ù£§£Ó¡¡£Â£Õ£Ó£Ù¡¡£Á£Ó¡¡£×£Å ¡¡£Á£Ò£Å¡¡£Ù£Á¡¡£Ë£Î£Ï£×¡¡£»£©¡¡£©¡¡

£ä£º gives you info and makes you reasearch the final conclusion yourself!!





¡¡E ...... ropes you in with his smooth as* shaolin god shyte and £Í£Á£Ë£Å£Ó¡¡£Ù£Ï£Õ¡¡£Ô£È£É£Î£Ë¡¡£Ï£Æ¡¡£È£É£Í¡¡£×£È £É£Ì£Å¡¡£®£®£®£®£®£®£®


£×£È£Ù¡¡£Ä£É£Ä¡¡£Ù£Ï£Õ¡¡£×£Á£Î£Ô¡¡£Í£Å¡¡£Ô£Ï¡¡£Ä£Ï ¡¡£Ô£È£É£Ó¡¡£Ð£Ï£Ó£Ô¡¡again???


Babe??


duibuqi....... I missed it
:( :rolleyes: :) :p


oh yeah, then gives you "bait " for shaolin perpetusim and leaves you to your ch'an :rolleyes:

dammned intellectual honey as*ed maers !!!!!!!

[GeneChing]

Here's something y'all might find of interest - Antonio's new book (http://www.gompublishing.com/books/monk_from_brooklyn.html).

[blooming lotus]

he studied at the temple Gene??!!!

I 'm sorry ,I've been here for over a year for that exact purpose!!!!! The school (wushuguan)off the temple , no question. Actual Temple ??!! I'd NEVER BELIEVE without more information about your journey BM !!!!!!!

But if there was ever a foreigner more deserving of entry I hate to ego on it, but It'd be me!!! I've been hanging about for more than a year declaring my intention, and because he (BM) makes false claims to "inside temple knowledge" I have to dismiss most of his statements as exagurations.......i'm here for this sole purpose remember and as far as i'm i'm concerned, the guy just lost credibilty!!!


At least John acknowledges he didn't breach the walls but did come within several feet for a period!!



BM, you're statement is UNTRUE and embelished for marketing!!!! For My respect and that of other dedicants you'll need to elaborate before you receive acknowledgement!!!!!


WE'll wait a while.........


Cheers

amitopho

Bl


Bad bad intro .....care to rehash???

[Serpent]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
I have to dismiss most of his statements as exagurations.......i'm here for this sole purpose remember and as far as i'm i'm concerned, the guy just lost credibilty!!!

POT

KETTLE

BLACK!

[blooming lotus]

you Serps???



:rolleyes: just the facts ....I want. just the facts!!


Ps: dead set: my life is THAT crazy!!! exageration leads to what?? misinformation??!!! Against my ..my .RELIGION!!!!!!!!!!

peace Serpie Guy :) !!!!!!!

[WanderingMonk]

Gene,

In one of the reply, you mentioned you are working on some secret shaolin materials, by any chance,, did you see monk Shi Dejian's xinyi quan?

[Brooklyn Monk]

I am having trouble posting from internet cafes in Asia. So, let's see how this goes.

After having studied in China and Taiwan, I have to say I don¡¯t believe that there are secret, deadly Shaolin techniques, only taught to a handful of supermen. If there were, at some point, one of them would have come forward and either fought in competition or made a video or something.

When you start kung fu the magic is the kung fu itself. Then once realize that kung fu is just an art, which if practiced, can be mastered. Then there is no more magic. So you like to believe that there are secret, magic, techniques waiting at the end of your path.

I believe there aren¡¯t.

One more point, someone on this forum said that I was ignorant. For the record, I fought thirty challenge fights in China and countless fights in Taiwan. I also sparred and fought in Thailand and Cambodia. I lost my most recent fight in Thailand. But to say that I am ignorant is not quite fair.

[Brooklyn Monk]

I should have read the recent posts before posting my own reply. Shaolin Village, no doubt, looks very different from when I first arrived there, March 3rd of last year. The government ordered the destruction of the village only days later.

As I remember Wu Shu Guan, isn¡¯t that like a big expensive hotel where foreigners pay through the nose to say that they studied in Shaolin? And, if I am not mistaken, Wu SHu Guan isn¡¯t even run by monks. Is it? I think all te instructors there were Jiao Lien. Unless I am confusing with Tago.

But, the lay out, and my training were like this. I slept in the temple, sharing a room with two monks. After three days they asked me for an exorbitant some of money, so I changed monks, but still inside the temple. My monk wound up being Shi Hung Fu. My training brothers, Miao Hai, Miao Ping and I trained at the temple every day, in fromt of Sifu¡¯s little house, but we slept at a school which was very close to where Tago was at that time. We had at least one of our daily training sessions at the temple until the SARS epidemic became so bad that they didn¡¯t allow students into the temple anymore.

[GeneChing]

Actually, several of us have trained in the temple, it's not that big a thing, really. I do think that you're ad text is a bit deceptive Antonio, since I can think of plenty more then 50 people taken lessons inside - the question really is how long did they study and with who. Just because you're in the temple, doesn't mean that you're getting better lessons. You might be, but then again, you might not be. Although FWIW, I don't think any women have stayed in the temple, although some have takien lessons in there, so don't feel bad BL. You might have better luck at the nunneries. As for the Wushuguan, it's not run by the temple, but in the early years, the monks went back and forth. Now there is more separation between the temple and the wushuguan. There's a huge time element to consider about Shaolin, as anyone who's been watching Shaolin for more than say, three years, has probably noticed. Everything is changing. In fact, all of China is changing. It used to be a bargain to travel there, but each year, it gets more expensive. Many of the changes at Shaolin reflect what has happened to China as a nation on the whole.

[blooming lotus]

you're a disciple and removed from our circle of reality on this note. Make up your mind anyway, you said only some posts back that it was dificult and unlikely. :rolleyes:

[Serpent]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
you're a disciple and removed from our circle of reality on this note. Make up your mind anyway, you said only some posts back that it was dificult and unlikely. :rolleyes:
Look out, Gene - she's out to get you now!

[Red Rain]

After having studied in China and Taiwan, I have to say I don¡¯t believe that there are secret, deadly Shaolin techniques, only taught to a handful of supermen. If there were, at some point, one of them would have come forward and either fought in competition or made a video or something. Is this a result of your own frustrations because you realize your own expectations having not been met or your exhaustive research of all martial arts? You sound as if the search is over but you keep searching anyway.

[Songshan]

Originally posted by Brooklyn Monk
I am having trouble posting from internet cafes in Asia. So, let's see how this goes.

After having studied in China and Taiwan, I have to say I don¡¯t believe that there are secret, deadly Shaolin techniques, only taught to a handful of supermen. If there were, at some point, one of them would have come forward and either fought in competition or made a video or something.

When you start kung fu the magic is the kung fu itself. Then once realize that kung fu is just an art, which if practiced, can be mastered. Then there is no more magic. So you like to believe that there are secret, magic, techniques waiting at the end of your path.

I believe there aren¡¯t.

One more point, someone on this forum said that I was ignorant. For the record, I fought thirty challenge fights in China and countless fights in Taiwan. I also sparred and fought in Thailand and Cambodia. I lost my most recent fight in Thailand. But to say that I am ignorant is not quite fair.


Hey Brooklyn Monk I have come to one conclusion after reading your last post. You have absolutely lost your mind!!!! The last time I thought there were "secret magical" techniques I was about 7 years old watching the Kung Fu television series. Have you been knocked in the head too many times?? Seriously, whats the deal?

I don't recall reading the post where someone called you ignorant, but comon the way you present yourself here on these forums is well...a little bit arrogant. What does thirty challenged fights and countless fights in Taiwan give you? Mastery? Lets discuss it. I hope that you would respond to the posts you were asked specific questions about your theories. I hope you answer my post.

Oh yeah about your book. It seems to me that since you were scammed at Shaolin you are now scamming them with your book. Now you are the one trying to make a profit. To me that's not quite fair either.

[GeneChing]

Fair enough, I should qualify that statement. It's difficult and unlikely to train in the temple for any length of time or to any depth. Most serious students lean towards training outside the temple because it's chock full of tourists in the daytime. And it's not my discipleship that allowed me to train there (although, again, fair enough, I'm a bit outside the *normal* circles, but more so from my job). The first time I went to Shaolin, I trained in the temple with about a dozen other Americans and none of us were disciples at that time. I was just a freelance writer back then too. So it can be done, it's just not as desireable as it might seem.

[blooming lotus]

No. It's not desirable for them nor us, especially when you're fml.......... If there was a way to get there over 12 + mths, I'd have no hair and a discipleship today........


you're lucky gene and your chinese head 's gotta help too.....mine's white and fml........what d'you do???

[Serpent]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
you're lucky gene and your chinese head 's gotta help too.....mine's white and fml........what d'you do???
You're also barking. Don't forget that.

[Brooklyn Monk]

Song Shan

Sorry if I came off as arrogant. And also sorry I didn't specify who said that about me being ignorant. Anyway I think it was someone on the other forum. So, sorry again. I have so much trouble logging into forums from over here that I dont generaly get to read everything carefuly before i post.

As for too many shots in the head, that is pretty funny, but may actually be true.

I totally agree that I am no master. I would never claim to be. I just meant that I had enough experience to not be considered ignorant.

As for magic techniques of kung fu, I keep coming across posts where people are saying that there are secret techniques and that. I maintain that MMA fighters and pro boxers and pro muay thai are the best fighters in the world. But there are people who are saying that the secret kung fu techniques would win in a fight.

How exactly did I scam at Shaolin and scamming on the forum? Not sure what you meant by that. Please explain.

GENE

Sorry about saying only fifty people had ever trained in side the temple. What I really meant is that it was a very small percentage of people, as most train outside the temple. also very, very few foreign students have ever slept in the temple. Also my point was that I was in a Chinese program, with Chinese people and no foreigners. Shi Hung Fu had only trained about three other foreigners ever.

TO EVERYONE

I don't claim to be a master or even to be good at Kung Fu. I am a writer first, and fighter second. I travel through Asia, studying fighting and writing books and articles about the experience. If you read the book, The Monk from Brooklyn, you get a feeling for what it is like to live in China, and to study at the temple.

[Kristoffer]

Brooklyn Monk, check your PM

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by Brooklyn Monk
Song Shan
TO EVERYONE

I don't claim to be a master or even to be good at Kung Fu. I am a writer first, and fighter second. I travel through Asia, studying fighting and writing books and articles about the experience. If you read the book, The Monk from Brooklyn, you get a feeling for what it is like to live in China, and to study at the temple.

bit of a writer myself and If I make it out of here, I'll look forward to reading your take on it myself.



cheers :)

[GeneChing]

Antonio, thanks for the recant. I've never slept in the temple. I've been there after and before 'public' hours plenty of times, as well as in many of restricted access areas, but I've never slept there.

As for the best fighters, the problem I have with that old MMA/boxer/Thai argument is a scale. In the fight games, we talk about the best pound-for-pound. But what we should really be talking about is year-for-year. I wouldn't dare get in the ring with any of top fighters in those fields, but I might wheelchair race them when we're at the old folk's home. What I'm saying is that, while granted there are a few older masters in those arts, it's a fight sport and like almost any sport, it's a game for the young. I've met more fighters who've paid a heavy price to play those games - we joke about too many blows to the head, but look at Ali - that's no joke. Once you crossed a few decades, traditional martial arts like Shaolin and Tai Chi make a lot more sense. I'm looking at the "long green" and year-for-year, I'd still say they're the best investment.

[blooming lotus]

you're a disciple Gene and've never slept in the temple?! what is that?? softness or option?? I know you yourself've done others but at Shaolin Si Antonio???

[GeneChing]

No, I've never slept in the temple. I would have liked to when I was younger, but probably not now. Too touristy. I tend not to sleep well at Shaolin, so sleeping at the temple probably wouldn't be very restful. Then again, it would be fun to do it just to say that I did. I've spent the night at Tamo's cave, if that's of any importance.

But you;ve got to get past this disciple fixation, BL. There are literally thousands of disciples. Thousands. Figure that there are 100-200 inner temple monks, and probably the same amount, if not more, martial monks, and they rotate. That's the part that most westerners seem to have a big problem with since we've been raised in a culture that doesn't have a Buddhist monastic tradition. You can be a monk, then you can not be a monk. Or vice versa. Almost the entire population of Thai men enter the monastery at some point in their lives and that does not make every Thai man a monk. Far from it.

So let's do a little math. Let's say that there are 300 monks at any given time and that they rotate in and out another 100 or so every year. Figure this have been going on for at least ten years now. Now add in the fact that some monks have over a thousand disciples.

Now you can answer that eternal koan: How many disciples does it take to screw in a lightbulb?

[Serpent]

Originally posted by GeneChing
Now you can answer that eternal koan: How many disciples does it take to screw in a lightbulb?
In China? It doesn't matter - the power will probably be off anyway! :)

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by GeneChing
.

But you;ve got to get past this disciple fixation, BL. There are literally thousands of disciples. Thousands. Figure that there are 100-200 inner temple monks, and probably the same amount, if not more, martial monks, and they rotate. That's the part that most westerners seem to have a big problem with since we've been raised in a culture that doesn't have a Buddhist monastic tradition.

well daah Gene and if that's not my exact point ( let alone the personally different ways you all interperate and practice said discipleship)....well I'll be fruitless !!!!!!!!!!!!


Ps : pls see forrest for trees ;)

[norther practitioner]

Can't you just say Oh...

[blooming lotus]

oh ?? ......

:rolleyes: :p

[Brooklyn Monk]

Blooming Lotus,
Tell a little about your experience. I didn’t realize you were over there. Last time we emailed you said something about Australia. How long have you been there? How long are you planning to stay? I heard that Wu Shu Guan is heated. Is that true? In that case you could stay through the winter.

where are you getting internet acess? do you have to go into deng feng? there used to be a secret, illegal internet next to ushu guan but it was leveled.

By the way, I respect what you are doing very much.

Gene, I agree fighting is bad for your body. I mentioned that in some articles. You could do regular kungfu for a lfe time, which is a huge advantage.

[Brooklyn Monk]

I agree with Gene that trainig with monks or training inside the temple is not necesarily better than training outside, froma quality of training standpoint. but it is more interesting from a cultural stand point, and is mroe what we expected before going to shaolin.

[GeneChing]

One of the things that has always bothered me about Shaolin training is that most Westerners treat the monks like chattle. They train under monks, or pseudo monks, and then they can't even tell me the name of the monk they trained under. They just want a monk. They don't care about the individual. One of the biggest thrusts of my research has always been to show the monks and masters of Shaolin as individuals. Whenever you study anything to any depth, the most important thing is your relationship with your teacher. It's very possible that you might not hit it off with a particular monk or master, despite their skill. That's happened to me plenty of times. So it doesn't really matter whether you study in the temple or even with a monk. What matters is that you study with some one that shares a certain chemistry with you, some one you can trust.

Serpent: Nice. You solved the koan. You can progress to the next chamber of Shaolin. ;)

[Serpent]

Woohoo!

:D

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by GeneChing
One of the things that has always bothered me about Shaolin training is that most Westerners treat the monks like chattle. They train under monks, or pseudo monks, and then they can't even tell me the name of the monk they trained under. They just want a monk. They don't care about the individual.

crazy no!! :rolleyes: I think in their starstruckedness, alot of folks see the robe and forgert that there is dude under it with strengths and weaknesses. Since when are you taking a shifu without knowing his competancies???
:confused: :rolleyes:


ps: if Serpent 's solved the koan, that's created a new one of its' own !!!!!!

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by Brooklyn Monk
Blooming Lotus,
Tell a little about your experience. I didn’t realize you were over there. Last time we emailed you said something about Australia. How long have you been there? How long are you planning to stay? I heard that Wu Shu Guan is heated. Is that true? In that case you could stay through the winter.

where are you getting internet acess? do you have to go into deng feng? there used to be a secret, illegal internet next to ushu guan but it was leveled.

By the way, I respect what you are doing very much.

Gene, I agree fighting is bad for your body. I mentioned that in some articles. You could do regular kungfu for a lfe time, which is a huge advantage.

B:


Cheers babe.. someone's gotta tell it!
and then after you , I'm giving my own version! ;) :P


to be honest, I am having a sincere B*TCH of a time at the moment !!!!!!! I am in Guangzhou now, and was only out at shaolin/ dengfeng/ zhengzhou for 4 mths max. I was teaching esl, ( on a second trip / shaolin ma / ch''an seeking venture ) and my school ( the one I was teaching english at ) dodged me out of neary everything they promised including food and wage. Sick as a mofo , so split! Total time in china to date about 1 long , sorry yr!!!!

I did get a chance to study alot of shaolin kf, taiji, bagua, and various snake/crane. iron/ blah blah while there though, so not all bad. picked up some awesome stuff!!! One colleague was an ex- native sanda/ wushu champ ( now about 38 yrs) so that was extremly cool!

THe wank sh*ts at my old school refused to admit they breached their contract, but because I'm concurrently doing a phd ( observation paper ) in ch'an buddhism, thought I'd hustle a lil down the line , and see what else I could turn up. Rocked up at Guanzhou, picked up some awesome aerial tips and southern shaolin gf, then ( shoppaholic and mommy with bub and neices / nephews and fams at home) needed more cash to get home , so went up to Liaoning to teach uni english..... Didn't find the manchu ( which was what I was hope for nor tam tui min), but met babe Russian shotokan ex - nat - competitor - multi - regional champ and muay thai student colleague , traded notes for a bit and was sweet.

Also been to Anhui teaching ( huge on taiji there - particularly chen/ yang ) then a lil time in shanghai and beijing for some bagua .

Schools post Zhengzhou did dirty on the visa extension, and trapped as a mofo! Been strandeed for 4 weeks here paying travel bills, hotel , food and bought 3 air tickets home I couldn't use nor refund!!

Kinda not sure If I'll even live through this BS to be frank , but have offers from Teipei to brazil , though wanna head home.

gongfu is something I do as part of my day, and shaolin as a belief system, is just something I study and the way I acknowledge the world. Kinda sappy, but there it is........

Look fwd to getting home if I can, ( and if I do i'll definately hook up for school refs via mails), but at this point, hating every moment of it and crossing fingers / meditating profusely!

I just want to study and train!! You feeling that????

BL


on the wangbas..........

there are 2 in dengfeng I think and never really had drama there...I think the problem is really getting network availabilty......... a " wo yao chu wang ba-" 'll usually get me there, but getting connected is a whole new saga !!!


Cheers Bm

Ps : where 're you at ???? If I make it home, or even outta here I'll be in touch!!

[Brooklyn Monk]

Blooming Lotus

Your china experience sounds interesting, and enlightening, if not always pleasant. but good for you, you did it.

Even the Blooming lotus can be as a piece of iron, if the situation demands. Dante Perso


I am still in cambodia. just lost a fight in Thailand. but feeling fit and good. training here about two and half hours per day. probably going back to thailand to fight soon. my movie opened and flopped. But we are starting work on some short Khmer Kung fu films this month, and are hoping to do well in the over-seas market.

in the states, my book, The Monk froim Brooklyn, is out now. and i am going home to do a book tour. I know a lot of people dont like some of my opinion. but on the whole, the book is pretty funny and reveals a lot about living in china. when you read it, you will probably nod your head and say, "Ah yes, that is China."

In new york i will be looking for a publisher for my book about training in the temple in thailand. tentatively planning my next book in USA, training with NHB teams, and if I could find live in Kung Fu or MA programs I would include them in the book.

if anyone wants their school featured, just write me and let me know.

Blooming Lotus, please keep in touch.

[blooming lotus]

of course, and cheers for the kind words , but what does that mean?? Hopefully I'll get a copy of your book sometime soon myself ;) .

How long are you off the asian circuit?? and what are your plans after the promos??

BL

[Songshan]

Originally posted by Brooklyn Monk
Song Shan

Sorry if I came off as arrogant. And also sorry I didn't specify who said that about me being ignorant. Anyway I think it was someone on the other forum. So, sorry again. I have so much trouble logging into forums from over here that I dont generaly get to read everything carefuly before i post.

As for too many shots in the head, that is pretty funny, but may actually be true.

I totally agree that I am no master. I would never claim to be. I just meant that I had enough experience to not be considered ignorant.

As for magic techniques of kung fu, I keep coming across posts where people are saying that there are secret techniques and that. I maintain that MMA fighters and pro boxers and pro muay thai are the best fighters in the world. But there are people who are saying that the secret kung fu techniques would win in a fight.

How exactly did I scam at Shaolin and scamming on the forum? Not sure what you meant by that. Please explain.


TO EVERYONE

I don't claim to be a master or even to be good at Kung Fu. I am a writer first, and fighter second. I travel through Asia, studying fighting and writing books and articles about the experience. If you read the book, The Monk from Brooklyn, you get a feeling for what it is like to live in China, and to study at the temple.


Maybe I am just confused but the way I understood your "mission" was not from a writers point of view but from a martial artist's point of view. You said you were doing movies overseas. You said you were looking for a real fighting style. You said you had thirty plus fights under your belt. I don't think a writer would subject themsleves to this. It is ok to write about your own experiences. I followed your articles since they first appeared in e-zine on this web site. The only feeling I really got from your story was that you were depicting Shaolin in a negative way. You basically told your story on how you got "scammed" while staying at Shaolin. This included what happened to you, your stay at Shaolin, what you learned, where you trained at, etc. The conclusion I gather from you is that Shaolin is no longer Shaolin (aka wushu) and you learned first hand that there are no secret techniques in MA. I think any martial artist knows there are now "secrets" in fighting it's all skill, training and dedication. I heard about your book but the picture on the cover depicts you in shaolin attire. So in your book, I imagine you don't really have a lot of good things to day about Shaolin....you didn't in your article. I just find it hard to believe that you would think Shaolin Kung fu isn't real just after spending a few weeks there an not really researching Shaolin thoroughly. What do you think?

[SaMantis]

Maybe I am just confused but the way I understood your "mission" was not from a writers point of view but from a martial artist's point of view. You said you were doing movies overseas. You said you were looking for a real fighting style. You said you had thirty plus fights under your belt. I don't think a writer would subject themsleves to this.

I think you'd be surprised what writers often subject themselves to in order to get a story. (I don't want to go into some of the things I've done, some of them are way too embarrassing.) Experience is not only the best teacher, it's also the best way to understand the subject you want to write about. Experience also can -- and does -- change the way you write about the subject, ultimately.

If a writer wants to fight or a fighter wants to write, there's nothing to stop them from doing so.

Except broken fingers. That could stop them.

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

ya know............... sometimes we just live our life and as it turns out , it's so interesting / or noteworthy for others on the same tangent, you can't help but penne some , then before you know it, your book is 3/4 written ;)

[Songshan]

Experience is the best teacher indeed. As a matter of fact I support writing about your experiences. I just didn't think it was quite fair that the brooklyn monk dismissed the whole Shaolin system based on a few weeks he experienced. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion(s) though so I guess it just kind of rubbed me the wrong way. I guess I wouldn't be as harsh if he called himself a writer from the very beginning and said "hey I am just a journalist/writer this is what happened to me". Instead, I kinda felt like he portrayed himself as a "martial artist on a mission". Oh well, to each his own :D

[yellowpikachu]

Originally posted by Brooklyn Monk
I think I lost something along the way

when i was elevn or twelve years old, i believed in the magic of kung fu.


Cain to his master: Old man, how is it that you can hear so much?
Master: Young student, how is it that you cannot?

re-reading all of those great philosophical quotes, i remembered why i began studying kung fu in the first place.

..... It reminded me why I used to believe that every day of training brought me closer to enlightenment, and why I couldn't sleep at night, dreaming of my next training session, and of some day going to the shaolin temple, for real.

But why have I never found that in asia, not even for a second? was it because I was too proud? was I punching when I should have been listening?

But if it is me, why do I not know a single foreigner who ever found that wonder and magic in China and Taiwan?

I found the Thais and Cambodians refreshing, because at least they didn't pretend to have magic.

i'm not sure what that is worth. but i wanted to share. and if anyone has a constructive comment or even an insult, I'd be glad to listen.

did anyone else watch that show religiously as a kid? and, if so, did you experience disalusionment when you found that real Kung fu did not match Quai Chang Cains experience?


It is true Zen and martial art is non dual. IT is also true training in Kung fu can get closer to Enlightenment.

But, who really believe that?

Who has the practice to attain the Silence Watcher which always watching the thinker as Totlle who is the author of the Power of Now refer to? Who really know the non dual and integration Ken Wilber wrote about.

Yes, there are patriachs of Zen and Buddhist cultivator who knows what it is. and has method to get there.


enlightenment is suddent not gradual or getting closer and closer.

You are looking for to Know the silence watcher, the ever present knower, the non dual, or the original face, the immoveable heart, the unflatterred mind ...and then going into integration to transcent to transform your life, your art, your environment, your family, your competitors... core with the non dual and show them there is an alternative to grow to be better to be at peace to be at harmony.

In this path, first you have to find a lineage of Zen who can indeed train you to see the Non-Dual the original face. Then, the rest is you have to walk your journey to integrate. That is the Boddhisatva path. Read about Ken Wilber. he has good sense of what is going on.

As why you dont find the "magic" (which is not magic at all ) in China or Taiwan. just check it out, how many of them really belive in Karma and really want to search for the Non-Dual instead of falling into the trap of money, power, fame, ego as we all are in this world of only strong and weak matter but not truth and virture? Sensation indulging vesus peace and stillness? win verus to do it right?



Quai Chang Cains is just a TV show character and you are real and better. who says the journey is easy and simple? who says it is not about being defeat and lost and desprate and frustration and at the end only then one "knows" what happen.




best luck
and you shall find your path if you look for it.

There is no magic under prajna paramita. only wisdom. and first one has to learn to not take the thinker as oneself.. and learn not to pretend but honest.. there is no secret but everything is ordinary.. it is a lonely journey, some will call that a journey for the fool.

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

Originally posted by yellowpikachu
It is true Zen and martial art is non dual.

correct my friend. zen is about mind or lack of it subjective to encompassing passion, and martial art is for most a physical relief.


IT is also true training in Kung fu can get closer to Enlightenment.

] enlightenment has many aspects, and becomming familair with your body is one. If you see your ma as expression of your spirit, or as mk put it a time back, moving meditation, it certainly can!
enlightenment is suddent not gradual or getting closer and closer.

bu xing !! not true! enlightment is something that evolves gradually throughout a persons entire life!!

In this path, first you have to find a lineage of Zen who can indeed train you to see the Non-Dual the original face
humanity itself are the zen masters and the original face and non duality comes from the detatchment we all at some stage cultivate

best luck
and you shall find your path if you look for it.
.
on BM, the guy is fighter and went to shaolin for ma not chan! He claims no budhhism. Guess that's the difference in the magic! ;)

[yellowpikachu]

Originally posted by Ego_Extrodinaire
on BM, the guy is fighter and went to shaolin for ma not chan! He claims no budhhism. Guess that's the difference in the magic! ;)


The guy is not a fighter but a warrior. he went to shaolin for advance warrior alchemist training. But no one seems to show him the core of alchemist training is Chan training.




bu xing !! not true! enlightment is something that evolves gradually throughout a persons entire life!! -----


after the first glims of Non-dual one can grow one's living experience, expand one's view..... etc etc.
but that first glims of Non-dual doesnt come gradual,
and There is nothing to grow for the thus as it is Non-Dual.

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

;) love your thoughts on it!!!

however...... each increment of enlightment are many parts of a whole picture we receive in ones , twos or manys.........

amitopho

[SaMantis]

Originally posted by Songshan
Experience is the best teacher indeed. As a matter of fact I support writing about your experiences. I just didn't think it was quite fair that the brooklyn monk dismissed the whole Shaolin system based on a few weeks he experienced. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion(s) though so I guess it just kind of rubbed me the wrong way.

That's cool. But what I liked best about Brooklyn Monk's original article was that it was very "in the moment." It's rare to find that kind of writing being published, because professional writers are always processing, refining, rethinking their angle on a story so that even an "I was there" article will read smooth and have an overarching perspective. A true "in the moment" story is coarse and rough and rarely has more than one perspective, and almost always rubs some folks the wrong way. Its real value is that it captures the raw emotions of the event it describes.

If BM ever goes back to Shaolin, the article he writes about it will probably have a totally different perspective and attitude (not better or worse, just different). Because by now he has processed the events of his last trip and incorporated them into his total experience. In fact, I would love to see just such an article from him. (*hint hint Gene*) ;)

[yellowpikachu]

Originally posted by Ego_Extrodinaire
;) love your thoughts on it!!!

however...... each increment of enlightment are many parts of a whole picture we receive in ones , twos or manys.........

amitopho



There is suddent and then gradual
There is gradual and then suddent.
consist of both suddent and gradual, increment and step, that is non dual.

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

whatever works

[No_Know]

Other than disillusioned from Kung-Fu the series. Still valid.

Fantastic stories help me excel. Run across a lake? I understood the actual example was perhaps a stream...and I have practiced that. For me it is about breathing rate and selective contractions or focused less-tensioning. I look to keeping the water off of the top or sides of my shoes at select puddles.

The tree stuff? It's a process and I am other than in a rush for end result.

Magic of Kung-Fu.?.

Stealing in the stance traing place. See it. Know that it is happening but do not be drawn to it. Stay at You. Settle...you reach out of yourSelf when you worry or concern yourself, basically, when you stance train it might have to do with, "It doesn't concern you." Was it training? To distract you. Excel, regardless of those around you(in spite of those around you).

Peace in fighting? I refine my fighting to improve perception and comprehension of potential fightings At me. Understanding it to deal with it.

Continued success.

Is it about the fighting? It's about Being-one might say. The lessons vary moment to moment-at least our focus on/of the lessons perhaps.

Keep being.


I No_Know

Magic of Kung-Fu--other than the place The magic is in the doing. Not doing with intent. A pure action. If you will take no other action but that last thing which you are curently doing. A series of last acts might be for me a pleasure.

From Ernie Moore Jr.'s Kung-Fu, Squirrel:

*If I shoot for the stars and fall short I end-up-on-top of the world.

*I see the sun on the watery horizon. Now I draw within and can only see as far a some of the water. Then only as much as the beach or shore. Then inches in front of my feet. Then up to my feet. Then not below my shins then ~I can only see behind my eyes (some-such)--My mind. A focus of all that is~

There is darkness for the most part. But there is a sensing/awareness that wasn't noticed before the whatever. I have a coolness in my head sense, clearness. I usually only go as far as comprehending withdraw for sight. In front of my eyes but the other mentions might help you get something.


Whatever we get out of whatever, whatever whatever.

Be well enough.

I No_Know

Ernie Moore Jr.'s Kung-Fu, Squirrel is not a real Kung-Fu per se It's a Self Development I patterned after what I thought was the ideal at the moment, of Kung-Fu. Or some such perhaps. I was inerested in having my own Kung-Fu. Ernie Moore Jr.'s Kung-Fu, Squirrel is with which what I came-up.

I No_Know

[David Jamieson]

You didn't "lose" anything. there is no magic to it. It's practice and hard work to attain kungfu. that's all.