Attn: Mp

[Becca]

Hey MP- You said something on the other thread that got my attention. Hope you don't mind me starting another; that one was giving me a headache with all the bickering...



Becca,

I'm going to throw something out there that will not set will with people who want to emphasize differences, lineage and engage in true believerism.
I've seen clips of "good" Tai Chi push hands, Bagua, Shooter's tai chi and Tim Cartmell's work.

All of them - ALL of them displayed a sense of unity and fluidity of movement that I identify most closely with the grappling arts. Tim Cartmell - who is also a BJJ brown belt, has commented in the past that the principles are all the same.

Lets put it this way. I UNDERSTOOD what they were doing. It was clear to me, even (especially!) at full speed.

The thing is (and this is where I will get into trouble with the true believers), that this understanding of fluidity, unity, timing, etc... isn't unique to any art, but rather the practicioner. The skills can be cultivated anywhere, and depend entirely on how you train and how hard you work.


So what you're saying is that it isn't so much an internal art thing? Is it sort of like the theory that dancing helps wrestlers with thier ballence, then?

[Merryprankster]

So what you're saying is that it isn't so much an internal art thing?

That's exactly what I'm saying.


Is it sort of like the theory that dancing helps wrestlers with thier ballence, then?

Yes, but it's a bigger point. ANY art, properly taught, practiced hard and coupled with your own innate abilities will teach you:

1. How to move well.
2. To identify good (and bad) movement elsewhere.

This isn't an issue of style. It's an issue of kinesthetic awareness (understanding where you are in space relative to other things and how you need to move to get a desired effect)- something that is gained through training and practicing hard. Any style will bring you to it provided, the instruction, necessary ability (We all have to have SOME talent to do this stuff) and will to excel are present.

To put it succinctly, good is good, bad is bad. Style is just shorthand for how you go about developing the principles and for the training focus. This will inevitably lead to there being some things you wind up doing better than others. But it doesn't change your fundamental kinesthetic awareness.

[3rdrateIMAkilla]

And a rear naked choke is a rear naked choke

[Merryprankster]

Provided it's properly applied, that's true, regardless of who taught you.

However, if you continue on yesterday's track, I'm just going to slap you on my ignore list. I don't have time for this.

[Becca]

What kind of exersixes would help develop this, other that the drills taught in class? I'm just not getting very far with just drills.

edit: Ditto MP on that. That's exactly why I started this new thread.:rolleyes:

[Oso]

To put it succinctly, good is good, bad is bad. Style is just shorthand for how you go about developing the principles and for the training focus. This will inevitably lead to there being some things you wind up doing better than others. But it doesn't change your fundamental kinesthetic awareness.

sweet, stole that shiat...


Becca, drills are the step before good hard sparring.

And you usually have to have help from someone more experienced ( a good teacher ) to help you make the transition and keep helping you improve.

[3rdrateIMAkilla]

Hmmm. Perhaps I should look into cross training in ballet.

[Merryprankster]

What kind of exersixes would help develop this, other that the drills taught in class? I'm just not getting very far with just drills.

Sparring. Find out what it takes to do something to somebody. That's the honest to god trick. You might think you're doing something right then find out it's a different matter on somebody who doesn't want you too!

Proper practice requires tons of drilling and frequent full contact sparring to get the gist of it.

I don't personally know any other way.

Using a track analogy, I threw shot for years. I spent lots of time drilling different pieces of the throw. I spent lots of time using different weighted implements to fine tune different portions of what I was doing. I spent lots of time inside and outside of the circle working on things

But all that drilling would mean nothing if I couldn't bring all the pieces together at the same time with the right weight implement in the 7' circle with a toeboard that I called home.

Both parts of training are tremendously valuable, but you have to be able to pull all the pieces together. Just drilling won't cut it. I never could have practiced shot that way and hoped to succeed. I find it amazing that some people (not necessarily you) insist on practicing martial arts that way.

I don't want to sound like drilling won't help, because it sure as heck will. But it has to be accompanied by the full speed stuff - that develops that awareness. Drilling helps you ingrain movments that can take advantage of that awareness.

[Merryprankster]

Hmmm. Perhaps I should look into cross training in ballet.

I'm guessing it would lead to improvement for you.

[3rdrateIMAkilla]

Very funny.

[norther practitioner]

Thats why I do some wushu. It helps me get a better awareness of how my body works, and considering I do both traditional and contemporary chang chuan, it isn't a total loss in time in more than one regards.

[Merryprankster]

All right Becca,

I'm about to settle in for a VERY long game of Civ III. But I'll be back a bit later.

Cheers!

James

[3rdrateIMAkilla]

I'm not sure if I agree with MP totally or not, I'm not gonna flame anymore though, there's something to his post, just what I talk about is more specific, but perhaps not so different.

[Becca]

3rdrateIMAkilla- Thanks. It's much easier to get the gist of a conversation without all the flames.

MP and everyone else- The reason I'm asking is that I have reached that point in my style where technical proficiancy will not get me through the next rank test. I can execute the movements correctly, but have been told repeatedly that I either have no power in my forms and drills or no flow, and that the only time they can see both is while I'm sparring. I have also been told that I will not pass another rank test unless I figure out how to "fix" it.

I had no idea what my Sifus were talking about. I'm starting to see what they meen now but have no clue how to fix it, as it was put...:confused:

[Oso]

Becca, then I'd have to say shame on your teacher.

That's a crappy thing to say to a student...are you still working at a sub 'black' sash level? I could only excuse that if you were working towards a teaching rank.

If you are stuck then your teacher is supposed to help you get past it, not tell you to figure it out on your own.

And, IMHO, if it's showing up in sparring but not in forms then screw the forms...

good luck, if you have specific question then I'm sure we'll all try and help.

[Becca]

In general both are very good teachers. I'm the only one in my class who's not "getting" what they mean. I feel disloyal about it, but I'm thinking of asking one of the sifus from a sister kwoon if he can maybe work with me on it. Asking you guy for some clairification was a last ditch effort to avoid do that.:(

[Serpent]

Becca, when you do your forms and drills, do you visualise an opponent that is resisting? Remember that these things are an encyclopaedia of fighting techniques - practice them as such.

Alternatively, get a partner to play opponent and break the form down into segments. Apply the form against your resisting opponent to feel the flow and power required, then practice it solo with the same energy and intent.

[yenhoi]

Only 1 more year of civ III left.

I think IV comes out next may!

Yay!

:eek:

[yenhoi]

I think you should look into these sites:

www.straightblastgym.com
www.dogbrothers.com
http://go.to/stickgrappler

:eek:

[Merryprankster]

I'm not sure if I agree with MP totally or not, I'm not gonna flame anymore though, there's something to his post, just what I talk about is more specific, but perhaps not so different.

And I SO needed your validation.

I gotta go with Oso...shame on your teachers.

Some people are "gamers." They can't seem to pull it all together and fight with drilling...and then you give them an opponent and it's like they've been doing it all their lives.

[Becca]

Good ideas! We do most forms both as a form and as a combat set. I have no power in either. I will definantly try the visualization as well as braking it down to try and find the power as you put it. Thanx guys!

[red5angel]

Becca, then I'd have to say shame on your teacher.

I don't get it, her teacher is honest with her in telling her she won't pass the next level if she doesn't fix what she is doing wrong, or incorrectly and that is bad?
I wouldn't feel guilty about going outside for help though Becca, sometimes you need a second opinion.

My biggest weakness is probably the same sorts of issues you are having becca and I know exactly where MP is coming from and what he is talking about.
Ive been trying to figure out how to improve up on it for a few years now and that only thing I 've found is that it is a pretty personal search.
Some people have it naturally. Some people seem to pick it up using drills and forms. Some people need to go outside their art to find it (ie. ballet or gymnastics), some people just seem to struggle with it all their lives.
What I'm trying to say is that I don't think anyone's going to have the right answer for you, it's something you're going to have to look for yourself. If you're not getting "it" currently then you need to change something and probably try something else.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

In agreement mostly with what others have said.. i do try to vary the rhythms and timing of forms to more closely approximate combat situations.. too often i see people pushing forms for max speed and forgetting that there are natural pauses in many combat scenarios.. sometimes i see sparring where people move too fast as conditioned by form and miss the desired application.. in all cases, try to "feel" the presence of an imaginary opponent, feel the application and how it might feel in combat.. play your forms as though it were real.. we look at each application in a form and train its use, there's a big difference between flashy forms and fighting forms (the eyes search for the target, look ahead for the next 2-3 moves).. i look to see if the student is using good body mechanics or just mimicing.. stable foot-work is another of my focuses, weak grounding is weak form and weak combat.. oh, and complete a technique, slop in the name of speed is still slop..

Be well..

[Becca]

Red- The reason I'm hesitant to seek that second oppinion is that I don't want to offend him. But I see my performance and I see some of my fellow students who started with me but have surpassed me. I just don't see how what I'm doing is any different than what they are doing. Thier stances aren't any better, thier technique isn't any cleaner. My control is better than most of them. When we do drills that involve "phonebook drills", I can hit harder with more presission than most of them. It almost feels as if I'm being held to a highr standard, which, if true, is flatering. But missing this rank test will mean no advancement or new material for a solid year. I fail to see how this could help me if I have in fact mastered the skills needed to survive the next level, so to speak. He knows I won't test if he advises me not to. I guess I'm worried that this has nothing to do with my skill level, and everything to do with some unknown agenda.

But if I'm wrong, and end up offending him, I may loose out on one heck of an opertunity to train with someone of his caliber. I would rather try to figure it out on my own than risk loosing his trust for no reason. :(

Does any of that nerotic babble make sence?

[Oso]

I don't get it, her teacher is honest with her in telling her she won't pass the next level if she doesn't fix what she is doing wrong, or incorrectly and that is bad?

yes, bad if they are leaving her to struggle on her own.

I assume that she is paying the school. So, for one, it's their job.

My impression from what Becca has said is that she's been working on the issue for a while and is unable to see a solution. I agree that teaching is partially guiding and pointing direction to a student but letting someone get bogged down with frustration on top of the confusion is not good teaching.

As I said, the only way I could excuse that attitude is if she were trying for a teaching rank where the emphasis is more on figuring out things for yourself.




He knows I won't test if he advises me not to. I guess I'm worried that this has nothing to do with my skill level, and everything to do with some unknown agenda.

Becca, while this may or not be true, just the fact that you think it might be true isn't a good sign either. If he is holding you to a higher standard then it would be nice to at least know that he is.

[red5angel]

yes, bad if they are leaving her to struggle on her own.

in that case I would agree, I just didn't get that impression from what Becca said.

Ok, Becca, so from your point of view you have the right stuff correct? You say your performing atleast as well as your fellow students. Have you sat down with him and asked him the same questions you are asking us now? Tell him you feel your doing atleast as well as the other students and ask him why he feels you are not. I think you owe it to him to be as honest as possible and he owes it to you as well.

[Becca]

Yes, I have. He told me point blank that he A) felt that I should be performing better, and B) That I would have to figure it out myself. The not performing better, he attributes to a lack of stretch some days, a lack of stamina others. This part, I can see where he is comming from. Some das I don't have good stretch. And I do go to class dead tierd some days, so I get winded faster. But then he goes on to explain that I should be able to get some energy in my movements, even if I'm only at 80% or 70%, or what ever. That's the part he said I need to work out for myself.

The junior sifu is trying to help, but what he is working with me on isn't "fixing" what's wrong.

[red5angel]

he said figure it out for yourself. I think that's enough to look elsewhere for the answers you need. I don't think, no matter how often traditional teachers rant about it, that it's a bad thing to go out and shop around, even if it's just for a little help with something your not getting in your current class. Heck in this case it may not even be another martial arts school, just something else to get you going in the right direction.

I say do what you feel you have to do Becca, you're not there for your instructors, your instructors are there for you. If they are failing you in some way then you need to fill those holes elsewhere. Especially if the guy doesn't want to offer you any advice or help in your search, seems like you might not have another choice but to look for other options to get what you need.