Tough fighters who train hard!

[YongChun]

http://www.blackbeltmag.com/archives/blackbelt/1970/feb70/dut.html

http://www.realfighting.com/0102/jonblumi.htm

IN MOSCOW it was acclaimed the sensation of the year!
The greats of Russian sambo wrestling from all over the world witnessed an unknown Dutchman conquer everyone in sight to become the unbeaten world sambo champion.
More than 12,000 spectators, plus competitors from Russia, Bulgaria, Mongolia, Japan, England and Holland, sat in shock and disillusionment as Christian Dolman dominated the international tournament, considered by many as the semi-official world sambo championship, recently held in Moscow.
The achievement is even more unbelievable when one considers that a few days before the actual contest Dolman did not have the slightest notion as to what Russian sambo was. (small except from the first link)
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I have deleted a comment from a friend of mine where he talks about Dolman and Bluming being able to take care of some of the well known fighters from today because the wrong message got taken.
Ray

[Prometheus]

Yah. You tell them big guy. :D

Lots of claims of fighting ability, but not substantial evidence of any methodology.

A lot of fighting is the individual fighter. So? Many would agree.

[YongChun]

An Olympic Judo guy told me that these are some more names of greats:

koga, in the 90's, okano in the 60's, yama****a 90's heavy weight. inouye now. and lots more. and of course the great kimura

I find sometimes it helps to read about these people even though they are not Wing Chun people. Still fighters can appreciate other fighters whatever their background and sometimes can incorporate good training ideas from them. So that's the reason for my post.

[KenWingJitsu]

Real fighters like Dolman can literally toy with people like Boztepe and Gracie.

Mmmm, really? And you know this because...maybe you have some evidence other than your anecdotal opinion?

I mean....if half that claim were true, he'd be in Japan right now, making half a mill per fight.:D

[anerlich]

:o

Rigan Machado won a pretty high ranked Sambo Comp some years back without knowing the rules. All he knew was that armbars were legal submissions and chokes weren't, so he immediately proceeded to armbar all his opponents.

It's often said that the World Sambo Champs are for the also-rans, the real competitions are the internal Russian ones.

What's this Herb dude got against the Gracies, anyway? Did an older playmate triangle choke him in the playground as a kid and he didn't know whether to be scared or excited about the sexual undertones?

Are people like Sakuraba, Shamrock x 2, Henderson and Coleman not worthy wrestlers and worthy MMA opponents?

Dan Gable might smoke everyone ... IF? Sure, Bruce Lee might kill 'em all if he were alive, so might Ulysses or Maximus or William Wallace or Henry VIII (if you've seen his suit of armour, you'd know he was a huge dude). The comparison is about as relevant, no disrespect to Dan Gable (my fave pair of wrestling boots bear his name).

All these guys were great, no doubt ... but what exactly is your point in putting down modern personalities? To make you feel better about what you do, even when you can see its holes? Dutch and German nationalism? What?

How about Lennie "The Guv'nor" MacLean? How about a crapload of SAS and special forces soldiers you never heard of?

[YongChun]

I posted this because someone I know sent this to me. So I thought to get some comments from people that maybe know Jon Bluming and Dolman. They are very opinionated but seem to be able to back up their mouth. Everyone is opinionated anyway. Unfortunately that note was just a small part of many notes on the subject of the reality of classical martial arts training. Many people train for years and years in something and some of the modern fighters are just trying to say to really look at the old ideas and see if they are still relevant in modern combat. I think on another topic here Ernie talks about the dangers of just relying on other people's reputations form the past to justify what you do. I read on the Jon Bluming site that **** Wachberger one of Wang Kiu's top guys was learning stuff from Jon Bluming to beef up their Wing Chun. Bluming himself made comments about Emin but a student of Emin said none of that was true. I usually ignore the name calling but still am intersted to see what the big boys really have. I used to wonder how Yip Man taught some of his students. But when I asked that question to a Yip Man student I was told "are you here to learn about Wing Chun or to find out about my personal history?" So after that I thought OK forget it and didn't bother to ask any more questions.

[anerlich]

people like xxxxxxx (name removed to avoid politics) and Gracie.

So xxxxxxx is political, but Gracie is not? Your biases are still showing.

So you want to see our reaction to "old-timers" and their training methods, hype Dolman to the max but don't even say much about him other than that he is a huge Dutchman, let alone how, or if, he trains. You mention Bluming only in passing, though most would know of him as an old time tough and highly skilled Oyama student. Not sure how the original post has much to do with your stated aims ... perhaps more to do with unstated ones like putting down the Gracie name and MMA fighters, which you have done before, and some kudos for the Netherlands? The last is OK, but stop the Gracie bashing, OK?

[YongChun]

Actually I am a fan of the Gracies. I have their videos and some of my students train in the Gracie system. Also we train in the Kenneth Chung lineage and Ken has had a lot of good things to say about the Gracies. What this person Herb said has nothing to do with my opinions. In in fact countered his arguments but wanted to see other opinions as well to see if they match my own. Sometimes Email is a problem. I did a lot of grappling myself and in fact admire all kinds of martial artists and don't have a particular hero.

[anerlich]

Well, I'm usually pretty good at reading between the lines, but how you expected people to see what you were looking for from your original post with the opinionated quote from "Herb" therein escapes me.

The History Forum on the Underground has links to a lot of historical documents. Most are WMA and weaponry based, but there are links to free versions of such things as Farmer Burns's manuals (without Matt furey's channeling) etc.

As you calim to be a fan of the Gracies, you might benefit from reading Renzo and John Danaher's book "Mastering Ju Jitsu" and Kid Peligro's "The Gracie Way", both of which give excellent insights into the evolution of BJJ from Tani and Maeda, and Fusen Ryu Ju Jitsu. The former IMO sets a bar for MA historical reporting at a height yet to be reached by other texts, including MKF, and the latter, though predictably hagiographic, does give some great insights into the early development of BJJ by Carlos and Helio Gracie.

Any other info about Dolman, other than he has significant genetic attributes? Does he train in a particular system or School? Have any specific training methods worth discussing? Or was his success due only to genetics, and so the rest of us are doomed to mediocrity?

The old timers deserve our respect, though most accounts of their prowess are prone to exaggeration and lack historical veracity. A pertinent question, however, is whether their success was BECAUSE or IN SPITE OF their training methods.

[YongChun]

I tend to agree with you and can't see that what they achieved really apply to most of us other than the fact that hard work pays off (if you train the right thing of course). For me it's a challenge to see what can be taught to a small person. It's an interesting challenge to see what they can achieve.

In the 80's our club got up many experts from different fighting systems so we have a pretty good appreciation of talents in other arts as well as talent in the different lineages of Wing Chun that we have come across. I never agreed with any of the Wing Chun politics because I have known very good people from all kinds of lines. Much of the gossip I heard before just wasn't true.

I also trained in Karate, Hung style, Tai Chi, Escrima, Silat and in various versions of Wing Chun. I still appreciate all of those arts. It's the man behind the style and not the style that wins. However one can still academically discuss the efficiencies and logic of each system and note the pros and cons.

The other list of Judo names were names given to me but together with a comment that this person though no Tai Chi guy would ever be able to handle them. I tend to doubt this however my evidence is weaker than his. You never can prove any of these kinds of comments unless there were a real match.

[Merryprankster]

Well, this is how the best train. I've had the privlege of training with this fellow a little more than just a few times...

He was featured in the Washington Post


Muscle and Mayhem

By Eli Saslow

On his bad days, Rhadi Ferguson surveys his drab, worn-down dorm room and marvels at what becoming an Olympian cost him.

He lives at the Olympic Training Center in Colorado Springs, 2,000 miles away from his wife in Rockville. Pain often keeps him from sleeping and forces him to endure two hours of treatment each day. He's so deep in debt that he refuses to spend money on anything other than his sport, judo.

"I've given up just about everything," said Ferguson, 29. "Some days, that's pretty devastating. But its almost not a choice. I needed this, to make the Olympics."

For Ferguson, it has never been so much an Olympic dream as an Olympic obsession. He fell in love with judo six years ago, and the sport ransacked his life. For it, Ferguson sacrificed a $70,000 job at Texas Instruments and a comfortable home with his new wife.

He underwent major knee surgery, ripped his thigh muscle off the bone, pulled his groin muscle and dislocated three fingers -- all in the past year. "He takes brutal beatings," his strength coach said, "that most men wouldn't even survive." And in return Ferguson, ranked No. 1 in the United States, hopes to win a gold medal at the Olympic Games in Athens.

"It was never my goal to be the best in the U.S.," Ferguson said. "I want to be the best in the world, and I've worked harder for that than anyone."

A three-sport star at Howard University in track, football and wrestling from 1994 to '97, Ferguson stumbled into competitive judo almost by mistake. Having dabbled in the sport during childhood, Ferguson decided to join a judo club after graduation. He overpowered his amateur opponents and earned a black belt. On a whim, he decided to compete in the prestigious N.Y. Open in 1998 and wound up finishing third.

Less than a year later, he moved to Colorado Springs and went to the 2000 Olympic Games in Sydney as an alternate. "I hated watching the Olympics and not competing," Ferguson said. "So I made a vow to stay in Colorado and make it in 2004."

At the Olympic Training Center, a place where dedication seems cliche, Ferguson is revered for his work ethic. He wakes up at 5:30 to lift weights and then goes to practice for two hours. In the afternoon, he takes classes in pursuit of his third degree before going online to run his blossoming business www.trainingtowin.com.

Coaches think Ferguson might be in better shape than any other person in the world, and its easy to see why: At 5 feet 7, he weighs 225 pounds with just 5 percent body fat. He can squat 550 pounds, bench his weight 30 times and run the 40-yard dash in 4.5 seconds.

In fact, Ferguson is in better shape than many of his opponents think could be legally possible. Because of his build, the Olympic Training Center has tested him for steroids about a dozen times in the last few years, coaches said. Each time he's come up clean.

"People don't understand that he's just a genetic freak," said Carlos Santana, his strength coach. "His body works better than anyone else's in the world. It just leaves people dumbfounded."

To Paul Cotton, his Howard wrestling coach, Ferguson is "the closest thing this world will ever have to Superman." To William Moultrie, his Howard track coach, he's "the most athletic guy I've known." And to Mike Barnes, ranked No. 2 in judo in the United States, Ferguson is "flat-out scary."

At tournaments, opponents dread fighting Ferguson. They don't want to lose, sure. But more than that, they don't want to endure the physical pain he can inflict.

So far this year, Ferguson estimates that he has "popped 25 arms" or dislocated 25 shoulders. He grabs an opponent's hand, swivels it behind his back and then jerks upward. When that doesn't work, he resorts to simpler methods: Once this year, he picked up a 220-pound opponent and threw him 10 feet into the air.

"I'd be scared to fight against me," Ferguson said. "I'm all muscle and desire."

Question is, could Ferguson be too dedicated? Judo has left some lasting marks on his body -- early signs of arthritis, a finger so swollen his wedding ring won't fit -- that Ferguson seems to ignore.

Last year, doctors told Ferguson to give a torn thigh muscle six weeks to heal. He fought in the Pan Am Games less than two weeks later, finishing third. At the Olympic trials this month, Ferguson won despite a groin injury that kept him from moving side-to-side.

Ferguson's body never screamed louder for rest than it did about a year ago, when he tore his lateral collateral ligament and needed major replacement surgery. Doctors told Ferguson the injury would take nine months to heal. Finally, friends thought, Ferguson would be forced to spend a week in bed.

"That was so tough for him," said Rufus Ferguson, Rhadi's father. "But we thought he would relax and give himself time to heal."

Instead, Ferguson woke up at 5 a.m. after his surgery and hobbled into the weight room on his crutches. He lifted upper-body weights for more than an hour, until a combination of pain and anesthesia made his so nauseous he went to the bathroom to vomit.

"People came up and asked me what I was thinking," said Ferguson, who ended up recovering from the torn LCL in about five months. "I told them I was thinking about going to the Olympics. I was thinking about staying in shape and fulfilling a goal."

"He borders on crazy," said Lloyd Irvin, who teaches Ferguson jujitsu. "But once he decides that he's going to do something, there's no way he's stopping."

And hence the pattern that has sculpted Ferguson's life: Define a goal and aggressively achieve it.

He wanted to play three sports at Howard, so he did. He wanted to amass a bevy of degrees, to become a "lifetime learner," so he got a Master's in education, became a certified strength and conditioning specialist and started working toward his Ph.D.

He even pursued his wife, Traci, the same way. She came to one of his football games at Howard and, that same day, he told her they would get married. She resisted for five years, but he eventually achieved his goal.

"Rhadi was just so persistent," Traci said. "He always gets what he wants."

That's why friends take Ferguson seriously when he talks about his next goal: playing in the NFL. Ferguson had a solid college career as a gritty running back, but a major shoulder injury kept him from going to the NFL coaches combine for prospective players. Plus, judo has left him so broke -- he spent $30,000 traveling to competitions last year alone -- that he wants to make money fast.

"He has the skills," said Rufus, who played for the Atlanta Falcons in the late 1970s. "He could very easily be at that level."

"He'd be in the best pure shape of anybody in the league," said Santana, who works with about 20 NFL players. "And if he says that's what he wants to do, I sure don't have any reason to doubt him."