Information Needed on Form

[Skarbromantis]

Gung Lik- what does it mean in english?

Any info on this form, I have read elseware that it is a Chin Woo basic set, that was brought over to Pm, who brought it over and where can I get more info on it?

Is the Chin Woo set the same as the one included in the PM system, also who trains it today at their school?

Thanks Again.

Skard1

[mantis108]

Hi SkarboMantis,

<<<Gung Lik- what does it mean in english?>>>

There are 3 different names in Chinese regarding Gongliquan or Gung Lik Kune.

1. Gong means skill and/or the merit of skill as in Gong Fu. Li means strenght.

2. Gong as in bow and arrow. It is sometimes written as Bow Strength.

3. Gong means justice, fair, and righteous. Li means reason. This one is more of a system not just a form.

Most of the time you will see the first meaning and characters.

<<<Any info on this form, I have read elseware that it is a Chin Woo basic set, that was brought over to Pm, who brought it over and where can I get more info on it?>>>

Gongliquan (Kung Lik kuen) was absorded into the Ching Wu curriculum. The earilest record of this one form system (Gonglimen) dated back to Qing dynasty Qianlong period (1736-1796 CE). So this form could be older than the USA or Canada. Master Wang Fengting (Wong Fung Ting) in his book "Practicing Gongliquan" noted at least 2 versions available around the book's publishing time (May 1964).

It is said that the progenerator's family name is Luo. He traveled to Cangchou, Hebei and met a person who was very hard working with his Kung Fu. Unfortunately this person's forms are all flowery. So Luo thaught him the Gongliquan. It would seem that the original idea behind the form is to develop Gong to compliment whatever that unnamed person was doing; therefore, the form is supposed to be played slowly.

Wang Fengting's version was much longer and very repetitive [re: repeat to 4 directions]. The Ching Wu version very similar to and not necessary the other version that Wang wrote about is much shorter. The interesting thing about the CW version is that it ends in 90 degrees position clockwise to the opennig position. If the form repeat 4 times clockwise, you will finish back at where you started just like Master Wang suggested.

Styles around the Yellow River region, especially the north shores, mostly have Pigua flavor which is to say there are chopping and smashing type of movements. There are also takedowns, throws, stand up and ground fighter (limited to the side control and mount position). Ching Wu version Gongliquan has these type of characteristics.

All teachers who teaches at Ching woo must learn the 10 sets of Ching Woo which includes the Gongliquan. GM Luo Guangyu and GM Chiu Chuk Kai both taught at different branches of Ching Wu at different times. So HK 7 Stars PM and CCK TCPM have the Gongliquan.

<<<Is the Chin Woo set the same as the one included in the PM system, also who trains it today at their school?>>>

It should be more or less the same. Different flavor and application might exist though. We train the Gongliquan in our style.

Hope this help.

Warm regards

Mantis108

[GermanMantis]

Hi Robert,

thanks for the bucket full of informations. :) Very interesting. Do you own the book you mentioned?
We (school of German Bai Lung) also train the Gung Lik Kuen. It is the first form that beginners learn. Because of - as above mentioned - devolping strength an coordination it is very usefull for starting MA training.
Best regards,
Chris

[mantis108]

Thanks. Glad you enjoyed the info. Yes, I have the book. It was a gift from Kevin when he came to visit me. He brought along quite a few goodies. He's a very generous friend and brother. :)

The book is full of information which includes a sonnet of the form. It gives the names of the moves and the applications of the moves. There are also applications with pictures. The interesting thing about the applications is that the 4 attacks Da, Ti, Na, and Shuai are all there plus it illustrated the "striking on the mount" position of ground fighting within the form. IMHO this serves as a proof that some degree of ground fighting existed in CMA even in the 60s. It wasn't popular but it was there.

It would be great to see your version and applications as well. I think I have an application of the GLQ on my laptop. If you are interested, I will send the file over.

Warm regards

Robert

[GermanMantis]

of cause i'm as ever interested :D .
I'll ask Jochen if we can make a clip of our version. Groundfighting sound very interesting i can't imagine moves in our version that would fit groundfighting but i'm openminded :)
Warm regards
Chris

[MantisCool]

It is said that all students or rather the teachers in CW must learn the 10 basic forms but in our Chin Woo we never learnt it!

My sifu didnt teach either and my si gung the same. And I think they also dont know the sets if not they would have passed down to us.

[German Bai Lung]

The information given by Robert and Kai Uwe are the same I get from Sifu Lee.

Application of the forms are multiple but as Kai Uwe said, in a very different flavour than in typical Tong Long forms.

Here is a clip of Gung Lik Kuen (http://www.bailung.de/mov/Gunglikkuen.mov) its performed slow, just for the papers! :)

Well, maybe we can start a exchange of application here? Would be fun ...

[Skarbromantis]

Thanks for all the replys

German Bai Lung- the link won't open, any one else have problems viewing it?

"Is your Sifu or Sigung Philipman Chow teaching you Gong Li Quan?"

Master Chow is my Sifu, student of Wong Hon Fan, and yes I have learned this form early in my training, but overlooked the important messages within it, I am now going back over it to get a better understanding, as simple as it is, I feel it has some serious benefits.

Skard1

[Oso]

try right clicking and 'save as' worked for me.

I would have to brush up on my gungli, haven't done it in a couple of years....but I don't have it from a mantis source anyway.

Sifu Thomas in DC and I compared versions a couple of years ago when I visited him. Rather different but you could see the core similarity I think.

[Skarbromantis]

Oso I forgot to thank you in the other thread, I now have the "Bear Walking" on my computer, to make my son a happy
little guy.

Skard1

[Oso]

sweeeet....

[Skarbromantis]

German Bai Lung, thanks for the link, I got it working.

Ok now that I have seen it, is this the version that is included in the chin woo system?

Is this the version that you play in "your" PM system the same as this? Or do you have one "more Mantis like"

Skard1

[MantisCool]

I think some of the Chin Woo masters taught some of the ten basic forms are because they studied the forms before they joined PM. Meaning they were students of other masters before they studied PM. And they didnt teach all the 10 forms. maybe 4 or so only.

[German Bai Lung]

Hi Scarbro,

it´s the same form we got in our curriculum! No more "mantis-like" available. Why should be? It´s a Chin Woo form, not a PM form!

Khoo,

you are right. It´s just the tradition who makes the forms going down from generation to generation. Nothing wrong about that.

Although it´s mentioned already several times here in some other threads, Sifu Lee Kam Wing teaches the following Chin Woo Forms:

Gung Lik Kuen
Jit Kuen
Sap Sei Lou Tan Toi Kuen
Fuk Fu Kwan Yoeng Gwan
Baat Gwa Daan Dou
Ng Fu Cheung
Daan Dou Doi Cheung

[Skarbromantis]

German Bai Lung, there is a Mantis version of this set.

I did a search on the forum here and this is what I found

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=5671

It pretty old but its a post from Sifu Carl Albrite 2nd post in the thread....


"In the case of Gung Lek which is not a mantis form but a jing mo form, some mantis stylists
perform the set closer to the original jing mo version. Others perform the set in accord with
the mantisized (by Law Gwong Yuk)version."

But Kai Uwe Pel posted:

"Previous masters like Luo Guang Yu, and his kung fu brothers from Shandong, never originally studied nor taught the Chin Woo ten basic forms"

What is correct?


Should I assume this mantis version was created by one of his students, or was it created by Luo Guang Yu himself

Again I ask, does anyone play this form in a mantis like style, like the set I have.

Skard1

[ursa major]

Originally posted by Skarbromantis
... Should I assume this mantis version was created by one of his students, or was it created by Luo Guang Yu himself

Again I ask, does anyone play this form in a mantis like style, like the set I have.

Skard1

Hey Skard how are you doing?

I burned a few brain cells on this form several years back (Gung Li). According to some documents that I found at that time, this form has origins in Long Fist and shows up in many NPM curriculums, most likely because we share alot with with Long Fist.

For what its worth, I spent some time last year chasing down Eagle Claw style trying to locate it's roots in our system. Along the way I discovered that many Eagle Claw curriculums also include Gung Li and share alot with Long Fist as well.

Best regards,
UM.

[Skarbromantis]

ursa major- Thanks.

"It means that the info in that post does not discuss wether Luo Guang may or may not have later studied and/or modified the form. It only states that they didn't have to learn it in Shandong."

shanghai_kid - Thanks for the info

Couple questions

Are you saying LGY taught it later or learned it later and changed it ?

Do you have info on this or are you going by what Kai Uwe Pel posted. ?

Also do any of the mantis guys here, play this form in a more mantis like fashion????

Skard1

Thanks

[LawClansman]

Skarbromantis,
As to the addition of Gung Lek intos the system it is true that Law Gwong Yuk did not teach any Jing Mo sets originally. In fact it was Fan Yuk Dung that was supposed to go the Jing Mo to teach but sent LGY instead. After his experiences there , he did adapt some of their techniques as most popularly illustrated by the creation of our 14 roads which was his answer to the Tam Toy already being taught. He would have rather create his own than teach theirs (so it would seem). In fact the story we are told is that the Jing Mo wanted him to teach the Tam Toy of twelve roads and within 48 hours he had created 14 roads of his own - 2 more than they had.

This is only to say that our Gung Lek is from LGY according to my SiGung (his student) . Chiu Chi Man, Wong Hon Fan and others had already learned the Gung Lek set as members of Jing Mo. And had to make changes to it during the mantis class. So it is a different version.

Interestingly enough I have broken that traditon altogether and do not teach the Gung lek set as a matter of course. I will teach it if asked by a student but I teach Sup Baat Sao first as it gives me more mantis theory to work with in my lesson.

With Sup Baat Sao I can teach the principles as described on my site. And it is fairly easy to learn so the student can learn it quickly.

So back to the point, Yes, it is true that before LGY came to Jing Mo he didn't have a Gung Lek set. But later Gung Lek became part of the curriculum. But as far as I know, the entire 10 sets of the Jing Mo were never officially adopted into the style.


**************************************************
Greetings and happy 4th to everyone. I will be getting hosting in the next couple of months and with the increased bandwidth, I should be able to start putting some clips on the site. Thank you for your emails and I will take in consideration the comments of those that have contacted me.

[MantisCool]

I think the teaching of the 10 Chin Woo sets is now not a must. If it is a must then all new students must start with these 10 sets first but thats not the case. If you go the Hong Kong CW you would see that the PM students start off with PM first. Which PM enthusiast wants to start with other styles instead of the PM first!

As GBL said it is the tradition not the norm. If you look at WHF's curriculum you would notice that he only teaches the Gung Li Quan out of the 10 sets.

Jochen,

Sap Sei Lou Tan Toi Kuen is PM! Chin Woo set is "12 routes Tham Tui". PM's Tan Tui is "Spring Leg" and CW's is "Swamp Leg" if I am not mistaken.

I dont think LGY teaches part or all the 10 sets because my si gung didnt teach any!

[Tainan Mantis]

I agree,
Shi Ba Shou is a great set to start and heavy on the methodology of PM fighting.

[Skarbromantis]

Thanks for the info LawClansman .

As I mentioned earlier in my posts, I learned Gung Lek a couple years ago.

I also have also learned Sup Baat Sao.

Skard1

[ursa major]

Lawclansman said... "Interestingly enough I have broken that traditon altogether and do not teach the Gung lek set as a matter of course. "

and MantisCool said... "I think the teaching of the 10 Chin Woo sets is now not a must."

You know what -- I wouldn't be teaching a student of PM anything but PM. There is enough to learn without throwing other lineages into the lesson.

Best regards,
UM.

[GermanMantis]

Originally posted by ursa major
what -- I wouldn't be teaching a student of PM anything but PM. There is enough to learn without throwing other lineages into the lesson.


Hi Ursa Major,

indeed quite good argument. But nevertheless Kung Lik Kuen is quite a good form for absolute beginners because of it's simplicity.
I think that PM forms mostly are very complex to start with. The 2nd form that is teached at our school is Yie Lou Ja Yiu Kuen, which is quite short and not so complex.
Which one ist the first you teach? Sap Baat Sau Kuen is also very difficult for beginners because of learning both sides, most get very confused or having realy problems with the left side.

Best regards
Chris

[ursa major]

Originally posted by GermanMantis
Hi Ursa Major,

indeed quite good argument. But nevertheless Kung Lik Kuen is quite a good form for absolute beginners because of it's simplicity.
I think that PM forms mostly are very complex to start with. The 2nd form that is teached at our school is Yie Lou Ja Yiu Kuen, which is quite short and not so complex.
Which one ist the first you teach? Sap Baat Sau Kuen is also very difficult for beginners because of learning both sides, most get very confused or having realy problems with the left side.

Best regards
Chris

Hello GermanMantis,

Thx for your reply and I agree our forms are very complex and require sophistication to perform at all -- not to mention perform with excellence.

So we are now discussing a challenging issue for the Mantis community as a whole, that being, where do you start training for the new student who walks in off the street? What form shall they be challenged with?

Now just to remind the reader who is most likely already established in the martial arts, do you recall what was it like for you on your very first day of training however many years or (in some cases :) ) decades ago that was?

Do you remember the bewildering activities? The not having a clue of what was going on and that everything you did was clumsy and lacking in skill? You thought "I will never get this straight!?"...

Where we start a new student is a critical issue to us because it is a critical issue to that student and I cannot imagine a worse scenario than that of someone walking away from our system because our teaching method was flawed in that it failed to address their learning issues.

I have studied many other systems and have concluded that Praying Mantis is one of the most complex to learn (yet easiest to practice) systems. The fact is NONE of our traditional forms that have been handed down to us by past masters are 'easy to learn' or well suited to beginners when compared to basic forms of other systems.

I have asked other Sifus what they teach as first form and common replies are:

- Bung Bo (classic Mantis a good place to start)
- Monkey Steals Peach (short, they will learn it before their
introductory membership expires :D)
- Eighteen Elders
- Plum Flower Fist

Seems every lineage has it's favourite start form.

I have received feedback from students as well. Eventually after a fruitless search for an existing 'basic Mantis form' I did something very controversial and decided to write my own 'basic form' I call it "Mantis First Steps". I wrote this form to make life easier for the new student.

So in answer to your question I teach Mantis First Steps (my basic form) followed by Duo Gang (also known as Secret Force) followed by Bung Bo (also known as Crushing Steps) followed by Sup Baat Sau (also known as Eighteen Elders) and on and on...

Best regards,
UM.

[German Bai Lung]

Well Ursa, good points.
But I see it this way: teaching students some of the Chin Woo Form and to TELL them what they learn, I let them take insight of an important and exciting part of the Chinese martial Arts History: the foundation and spirit of the Chin Wu!

If I just tell the students: well some time ago there was a great man called Huo Yuen Chia .... well nobady would listen. If I tell them: okay this form you´ve learned now is not PM, it´s from Chin Wu. Then they will ask and think about what I tell them!

The curricili of the schools are all different. No Problem. Also the playing of most forms differs from school to school. Even in the same linage. But the History and tradition stays on and it is worth to given away to intrested students!

Thats why I will always teach some of the Chin Wu forms.

[MantisCool]

Our first form is Chun Quan followed by Shi Si Lu, Shi Ba Shou and then Beng Bu.

Why I never heard others mentioned about the Chun Quan 4 routes? The Chun Quan 4 routes is the most basic for us. The 1st route starts with a Left Bow Stance with 3 straight punches starting from the right punch. Then, move the right leg up to form right bow stance and then another 3 punches starting with the left punch. Repeat until end of the line and then turn back and repeat. The 2nd route starts with a right bow stance and block inwards towards the left with the right fist and then deliver a right beng chui then move up the left leg and do the same with the left hand by blocking towards the right and then deliver a left beng chui and so on until end of line.....

In the early 60's, a Tham Tui sifu tried to imposed the Tham Tui curriculum on PM by passing a resolution in the CW stating that any person wanting to learn PM must learn the 12 routes Tham Tui first! My Si Gung asked about 50 of his students to register with the Tham Tui sifu to learn the 12 routes and that sifu got a fright! He knows that if he is going to teach these 50 students he is looking for trouble! And reluctantly rescinded the resolution.

[GermanMantis]

Originally posted by ursa major

Do you remember the bewildering activities? The not having a clue of what was going on and that everything you did was clumsy and lacking in skill? You thought "I will never get this straight!?"...

So in answer to your question I teach Mantis First Steps (my basic form) followed by Duo Gang (also known as Secret Force) followed by Bung Bo (also known as Crushing Steps) followed by Sup Baat Sau (also known as Eighteen Elders) and on and on...


Hi Ursa Major,

yes i can remember my first mantis steps :) I came from Karate and had some problems running forms fluently. I had no difficulties in learning, but in performing. I always tried to perform every movement very exact and technique by technique in a very karate-like manner. ;)
I started with Bung Bo, which is in my opinion to long and highly complex for beginners. Your "First Step" Form sounds interesting, but i would start with Kung Lik Kuen, by the reasons German Bai Lung listed. But it's only for absolute beginners, if someone has already experience with MA i would teach a short mantis form.

Best regards,
Chris