What do you give back?

[Ernie]

What do you give back?
It’s funny I read countless post about people connecting themselves with this or that figure in wing Chun. They take the identity or accomplishments as there own, they take the history or should I say histories and connect themselves to it, like through some kind of osmosis or DNA they inherit wing chun skill. They create groups and organizations and huddle under their umbrellas, become masters of there little micro universe.

They take and feed off the reputations of others, they take and feed off the reputation of wing Chun

But what do they give back?

Instead of fighting so much about this or that legacy, who is right, who learned what from who and when and how much and who has the secret style blah blah blah?

What are they; we doing to give back and further progress in the development of wing Chun and ourselves on an individual level.

I have never understood this infatuation with the past and people trying to be the grand poobah of there own little empire.

How does any of this improve your skills and advance the wing Chun system?

Are you feeding or are you contributing?

These same individuals that everyone is trying to latch themselves to stood out because they contributed, the shed blood for the advancement of the system, they were not bottom feeders but leaders that took a chance and experimented, or else why would we admire them.
Should we not follow their example and try and grow, instead of feeding off their carcass

Just ranting a bit =)

[Miles Teg]

Good call dude
And lets be honest, we all think our teacher (and teachers teacher) is chocolate.

I just like the world view that YM had lots of students and he didnt name a successor. That way every one from different lineages stands at the same ground with different interpretations of W.C and we can all get along. In any case all evidence, besides a few out spoken individuals, points to the more than likely possibility that YM in fact didnt name a successor anyway.

Its just annoying when you hear one person talking about their system being "the Chosen One". It kind of degrades all other lineages in its arrogance.

I think a new forum rule should be that if you think your system is "the Chosen one", you should keep it to yourself.
...
...

and lets talk Wing Chun: training methods, fighting methods, principles, application and philosophy!!!!!!!!

[Wingman]

Some people are like the sun. They shine on their own light. Other people are like the the moon. They reflect the sun's light because they have no light of their own.

[anerlich]

It's about what you can do and what you have to give, not how others regard you or what titles you have.

But I *like* arguing about lineage .... ;)

[Matrix]

Originally posted by Wingman
Some people are like the sun. They shine on their own light. Other people are like the the moon. They reflect the sun's light because they have no light of their own. Some people's minds are like the pupil of the eye, the more light you shine upon it, the more they contract.

[yylee]

Not sure if contribution is always a good thing. Sometimes one might come up with some new methods, new ideas, thinking that it could take his/her Wing Chun to higher grounds. Of course one may also have strong desire to share his/her "new" elements to others. Although the intention is good, the contribution itself may not necessarily help others progress. In fact some other more experienced masters may look at your idea and just say: "Ha! been through that long time ago, bad approach, won't take you there".

Regarding lineage, I don't think I talk too much about my lineage here. It is true that I like it very much, however, I don't need to put my Sifu's, SiSuk's, SiBak's and Sigung's names on the table all the time. I am just a student, not a lineage representative. :)

[anerlich]

Not sure if contribution is always a good thing.

One can be a total traditionalist and still contribute enormously. Or not at all.

[anerlich]

I am just a student, not a lineage representative.

Ah but I prefer arguing about OTHER people's lineage ... :D

[yylee]

Originally posted by anerlich
Ah but I prefer arguing about OTHER people's lineage ... :D

and do you feel great after talking about those you called OTHER lineages, what does that contribute? :D

[anerlich]

and do you feel great after talking about those you called OTHER lineages,

I do!


what does that contribute?

That is for others to judge ;). Stop trying to sound like my mother.

[blooming lotus]

exactly...politics are state of "modern" life and pychology dictates that one ofthe utmost human needs ( as in on the second teir of human need), is crucial to productive life...........

let em rave.............and even humor them a lil..some folks just need that............

for the record:- relevance zero........until the pendulum swings your way and you just may may wanna little dribble yourself..........wheat from chaff, be kind and have a nice day ;)

[blooming lotus]

ps.humanity is what it contributes...................

humanity..............

be nice

[Ernie]

[[And lets be honest, we all think our teacher (and teachers teacher) is chocolate.]]]

I beg to differ,
I don't see my teacher or his teacher or anybodies teacher as anything more then a person that trained hard and got good.

If I really believed that these were special people and I could only hope to be a little like them then the wing chun system is a failure and why bother training if each generation becomes weaker and more watered down, just pail imitations of the '' mighty ones ''

That’s why I have no belief in masters or grandmaster nor do I care about what history says this or that person did.

These were all just regular people with good training and experience

And every student has the capability of surpassing the teacher if the teacher is a good teacher and honest and the student trains hard and smart

I believe it's every student’s duty to surpass the teacher; this would strengthen the chain and give back to wing Chun


Besides chocolate is fattening
:D

[yylee]

Originally posted by Ernie
Besides chocolate is fattening
:D

talking about fat. Recently I met a WC master who said WC doesn't get you fit. In fact, WC teaches you not to use any muscle strength. So don't look down on WC masters who look out of shape, they are more dangerous than you think because they hardly have to burn any calories to deal with their students :)

[Ernie]

[[[talking about fat. Recently I met a WC master who said WC doesn't get you fit. In fact, WC teaches you not to use any muscle strength. So don't look down on WC masters who look out of shape, they are more dangerous than you think because they hardly have to burn any calories to deal with their students ]]]


then we are all on our way to becomeing masters :)

[Miles Teg]

I agree that our teachers are the product of hard work and dedication. I also think it is dangerous to say that your teachers or teachers teacher has exceptional/natural skill. If a student truely believes this then then they wouldnt even try surpassing their teachers skill. I just meant that we all think our teachers are awesome - regardless of how they came to be awesome. I believe natural talent is only a small part of the equation. One has to train and work.

And your right, it should be the job students to try and surpass theior teachers skill. Thats a great idea that Ive never thought of before. Teaching techniques and methods can be refined to make the learning process faster.

[Ernie]

Miles
[[And your right, it should be the job students to try and surpass theior teachers skill. Thats a great idea that Ive never thought of before. Teaching techniques and methods can be refined to make the learning process faster]]



Miles my friend that is the meaning behind my post, I only wish more energy was spent on that then '' lineage, history, marketing, labels, and so on ''

My senior once criticized me, he said Ernie why re invent the wheel
[At the time I was seeking better ways to train dragon pole body mechanics and structure power]

I said I just cant help myself I’m a problem solver I passionately believe in research and development, break something down study all the components, see how they operate in singular and then combined fashion then cross reference it with other studies I have made in body mechanics and power generation, see if there is a common training methodology outside the system or some modern training apparatus that is better refined for that particular skill.

If I did any less I would feel like I was just being lazy and disrespecting the information and hard work others put in along the way.

My small attempt to give something back
:D

[blooming lotus]

Ernie,

pls dont loose faith.there really are great gm and even a shiofus out there worth their salt..............

peace lil bro :)

[KenWingJitsu]

lmao @ Andrew!

Ernie..stop making sense!!!!!!!!!! lol.

[Ernie]

Ernie,

pls dont loose faith.there really are great gm and even a shiofus out there worth their salt..............

peace lil bro


I am surrounded by highly skilled people, and there are tons all over the world, I just don't have any respect for titles nor do I see a need for them
As soon as some one introduces themselves as master this or that I tend to laugh [no joke has happened a few times] and I usually ask them master of what in regards to who, I don't get it?

I’m not rude, but I don't give automatic respect beyond just treat them the same as I would a bum in the street, just human decency

No one is nor ever will be my master thus there can be no gm

But there are plenty of individuals I respect, on a one to one, just plain good soul level

So you see there is nothing to loose faith about
:D

peace and elbow greas back atcha lotus;)

[AmanuJRY]

Ernie
They take the identity or accomplishments as there own, they take the history or should I say histories and connect themselves to it, like through some kind of osmosis or DNA they inherit wing chun skill. They create groups and organizations and huddle under their umbrellas, become masters of there little micro universe.

They take and feed off the reputations of others, they take and feed off the reputation of wing Chun

This, I think, comes from the "buisness" mindset. In the process of creating a buisness plan, you usually define what it is that sets you apart from your competition. In MA, it would be other MA (but with WC/WT/VT, it seems they/we focus on each other). I believe the only reason for the connection you describe is because being connected to someone that is "famous" helps bring in students (and being a buisness; students=$$$), that is also why they are all about the mudslinging, it's propaganda to retain students and a hardball marketing strategy.
But this kind of *stuff* can be seen in other education based buisnesses (private schools, colleges/universities, tech schools, etc.). -- "Learn here and recieve the best education in your chosen field."


Ernie
I have never understood this infatuation with the past and people trying to be the grand poobah of there own little empire.

LMAO, true......and kinda sad:(

As for infatuation with the past, I'm guilty, but I'm something of a history fan, it has little to do with training.


Ernie
These same individuals that everyone is trying to latch themselves to stood out because they contributed, the shed blood for the advancement of the system, they were not bottom feeders but leaders that took a chance and experimented, or else why would we admire them.
Should we not follow their example and try and grow, instead of feeding off their carcass


This poses the question - How do we respect, honor and follow the example of those individuals, without connecting-in some way- to their experience and accomplishments?

Pit-falls = Hero worship, ego, liniage propaganda/brainwashing, etc.


Ernie
How does any of this improve your skills and advance the wing Chun system?

It doesn't........... :(


Ernie
What are they; we doing to give back and further progress in the development of wing Chun and ourselves on an individual level.

What I want to give back to WC is to learn and teach an open minded, analitical view of WC in an open and ego-free environment.
How I want to further progress individually is to be respectful of and thankful for my training partners...my sihings and sidais. Those who dedicate time and effort into progress, and who have helped in creating the afore-mentioned open and ego-free environment.
And always respect where the knowledge came from.

[Ernie]

AmanuJRY

[[This, I think, comes from the "buisness" mindset. In the process of creating a buisness plan, you usually define what it is that sets you apart from your competition. ]]

and in turn splinter and weaken the whole :(

[[[This poses the question - How do we respect, honor and follow the example of those individuals, without connecting-in some way- to their experience and accomplishments?]]]]


buy focusing on the organic process of growth , gain inspiration , base everything of your individualism ,write your story don't live theres
everything has a certian timing , those same people that stood out then , stood out because events around them caused them to stand out ,
if those same people started to come out today the might go un noticed , it is how the world works .

[[[What I want to give back to WC is to learn and teach an open minded, analitical view of WC in an open and ego-free environment.
How I want to further progress individually is to be respectful of and thankful for my training partners...my sihings and sidais. Those who dedicate time and effort into progress, and who have helped in creating the afore-mentioned open and ego-free environment.
And always respect where the knowledge came from.]]]]]


then you have answered my question , now just do it :D
you dictate your enviroment , there is no room for ego , only growth , and what good is growth if we can't help another grow
you have a good heart my friend , your words were honest i admire that :D
perhaps one day we can meet in a ego free enviroment and you can teach me a few things ;)

[AmanuJRY]

Amen brutha!:cool:

"you have a good heart my friend , your words were honest i admire that
perhaps one day we can meet in a ego free enviroment "

Thanx, how 'bout next month? :D

[Ernie]

Thanx, how 'bout next month


;)

[Ultimatewingchun]

This is something that Ernie posted on a different thread:

"The second an instructor tells you.
You don’t need to train with outsiders
You don’t need to spar [share and compare] with other arts
You don’t need some level of conditioning

Then rest assured you are not learning a fighting art ."

You see...I have a slightly different take on the "Masters" and Grandmasters"...the "sifu" vs. the "coach" thing...etc.

I don't mind all the hoopla if the person in question does not fall into the category that Ernie describes above.

If someone is really good (he can REALLY do his system...and his system is effective)...and he has an open-minded attitude regarding the things that Ernie mentioned...

then I have no problem addressing him by his title.

But if the person in question has not DEMONSTRATED..in action...his excellence...then all bets are off!

Then he's just John Doe - as far as I'm concerned.

[sihing]

I gotta agree with most of what Victor P. just related, obviously if the person, sifu or whatever knows d!ck then he doesn't deserve the title or to be teaching anything for that matter. But if the Sifu has earned the respect of students, and paid their dues in their respective arts then my question is this, "How many times do I have to prove myself to every Tom, D!ck and Harry that comes through my kwoon door". For me I don't have to prove anything to anyone, I've earned everything I have, as I am sure allot of the people on this forum have done the same. To simplify all of this, when one has the skill they shouldn't have to prove anything to anyone, the skill they have will be apparent in everything they do and in the students they have...Just a thought..

Sihing

[Ernie]

Sihing


hmmmmm how do you define skill ?



[[How many times do I have to prove myself to every Tom, D!ck and Harry that comes through my kwoon door"]]]



every single time , i watch my teacher do it [ say him sparking up a few guys this morning visiting from different lineages ]

i test him all the time , toe to toe
it's my job to push his game and he loves it


i excpect the same from the guys i train , if i'm slipping drop me
keeps me focused and honest .

[t_niehoff]

Please pardon my intrusion . . . but Ernie asked the million dollar question: how do you define skill ?

IMO since we're training WCK to fight, our skill is measured only in one way: by how well we can *fight* (using our WCK as we say we can). In other words, how skillful the opposition we can routinely handle. (We measure the skill of tennis players by the level of opponents they can beat, we measure the skill of boxers by the level of opponents they can beat, and we measure the skill of chessplayers by the level of opponents they can beat.)

What doesn't say anything about one's skill is "touching hands", i.e., pretend fighting (it may give you an idea of how someone will try to use their WCK, but it doesn't mean they will be able to).

Regards,

Terence

[Ernie]

IMO since we're training WCK to fight, our skill is measured only in one way: by how well we can *fight* (using our WCK as we say we can).

b-i-n-g-o :D

one of the things that drew me to wc was the fact that when ever i saw a demo they never said punch like this or kick like this
it was allways open ended just attack me or i will attack you and we will work it out from there


it's the same way i do a demo , sure i hold back and don't leave them busted up
but a little shell shocked and on there butt never hurt any one
:D

just like when people visit and say they want to test my skill and ask me to chi sau

if they just wan to roll and play with structure and sensitivity cool but if the want to ''test me''

i tell them glove up and lets move around or don't glove up and lets move around

it's amazing how shocked and insulted some people get buy that
never understood that :rolleyes:

[anerlich]

How many times do I have to prove myself to every Tom, D!ck and Harry that comes through my kwoon door

In arts like BJJ, you are constantly proving yourself to everyone stepping onto the mat, and most especially, to yourself. The BB's all wrestle, and very occasionally get tapped (but only by the very best students).

Most of the BJJ schools in the '90's expected and took challenges. John Will, head of the Machado org here, and another then purple belt (JW is now a 3rd degree BB) took all the challenges in turn when he was training in California, sometimes 4 or 5 a night.

You go into any BJJ school today, you will not get to fight the BB, A purple belt will accept your challenge. And you WILL find it extremely difficult.

Last WC hero who came to our WC kwoon wanting to test us was given a guy about his size with three years' training. Our guy took him down and submitted him about ten times in five minutes. He decided to pull out his "deadly eye gouge thermonuclear option" and only succeeded in annoying our guy, bad move.

As an instructor, you should be constantly proving your ability to teach to every prospective student that comes through the kwoon door. In a sale, it's called "the moment of truth". You are only EVER as good as the last class you taught.

In one of Marc "Animal" MacYoung's books, he talks about two types of leaders on the street. The first type, if you challenge him, he'll have to stand up, all his buds will stand behind him hoping he's going to beat you. The second, all his buds will stand between you and him, saying "you aint going to get in his face." You'll be fighting all of them before you get close to him.

As you get older, you really want to be trying to turn yourself into that second guy.

[t_niehoff]

Andrew Nerlich wrote: He decided to pull out his "deadly eye gouge thermonuclear option" and only succeeded in annoying our guy, bad move.

**I'm glad you pointed out on of the common "myths" among folks that don't routinely fight (put it to the test): that the eyejab along with the groinkick (I've heard some call it their two primary weapons!) will save their @ss. IME for the *most part*, these things are grossly overrated in effectiveness and are low-percentage shots that more often than not leave the person trying them in a worse pickle.

Regards,

Terence

[Ultimatewingchun]

"How many times do I have to prove myself to every Tom, D!ck and Harry that comes through my kwoon door.......every single time , i watch my teacher do it [ saW him sparking up a few guys this morning visiting from different lineages ]...,,i test him all the time , toe to toe... it's my job to push his game and he loves it... i expect the same from the guys i train , if i'm slipping drop me, keeps me focused and honest."

"IMO since we're training WCK to fight, our skill is measured only in one way: by how well we can *fight* (using our WCK as we say we can). In other words, how skillful the opposition we can routinely handle. (We measure the skill of tennis players by the level of opponents they can beat, we measure the skill of boxers by the level of opponents they can beat, and we measure the skill of chessplayers by the level of opponents they can beat.)"

"just like when people visit and say they want to test my skill and ask me to chi sau... if they just wan to roll and play with structure and sensitivity cool but if the want to ''test me''... i tell them glove up and lets move around or don't glove up and lets move around,
it's amazing how shocked and insulted some people get buy that
never understood that."

"Last WC hero who came to our WC kwoon wanting to test us was given a guy about his size with three years' training. Our guy took him down and submitted him about ten times in five minutes. He decided to pull out his "deadly eye gouge thermonuclear option" and only succeeded in annoying our guy, bad move.

As an instructor, you should be constantly proving your ability to teach to every prospective student that comes through the kwoon door. In a sale, it's called "the moment of truth". You are only EVER as good as the last class you taught."

The management of this T.V. station...WPIWANNAKEEPITREAL...wishes to thank all those who have contributed to this award-winning program, entitled..."Let's Join the 21 ft Century - Okay Wingchunners?"

Thank you, and good night!

[Ernie]

Terence

Have to disagree with you a bit there, as far as eye jab and groin shots, they have saved my butt a few times, like any tool it can be cultivated to a high degree and when used in the right place and time or set up correctly it is the most efficient tool for the job. Now this mean their needs to be a few prerequisites like timing speed distance power and can you fake.
On the ground which I have very limited experience, but I have rolled/sparred with bjj blue belts and vale tudo guys, I have cause them a lot of havoc with slapping the balls and biting and the occasional eye massage.
Last week I was working out at gold’s gym local hot spot for roid heads and my neighbor thought it would be funny to send one of his 250-pound half man half animal buddies to make an example of me while I was drinking water. Dude walked up behind me and was right about to give a bear hug, I popped my foot into his nuts on reflex, thinking it was my neighbor just trying to play with me, spun around saw this huge dude piked up grabbing his balls with his eyes all bugged out bright red in the face, not sure what was on I gave him a thigh kick on that big side a beef leg he had, and down he went.

By that time my boy ran over laughing and told me to chill, we all had a big laugh after but the guy had a good sense of humor ‘’ thank god ‘’
In all honesty I wouldn’t want to go toe to toe with this guy =)

[t_niehoff]

Hi Ernie,

I've found that they have limited usefulness (depending mainly on the level of skill of the opposition -- they work well on the poorly-skilled, less so as the skill level of the opposition increases -- and on how well-developed the level of your attributes are; the targets are difficult to hit, the contact has to be "just right" to have much of an effect, these targets are instinctively protected, good fighters can "soak up" some pain, etc.) mainly as set-ups or distractions but in a "full-out" situation against skilled fighters they aren't effective as "fight-enders" (Nerlich's "deadly eye gouge thermonuclear option" LOL! Good one, Andrew!) or even as serious threats (personally, I'd prefer an opponent that was trying to do them against me -- it means he's not focusing on the "good stuff").

But if you can make them work (and have made them work against skilled fighters in a genuine fighting environment), good for you. In the end, we need to find out what it is that we can *personally* do (which can only be found from the doing). Hawkins' says "theory is great, but can you do it?" Someone "theorizing" that they can realy on eye-jabs and groinkicks should the sh1t hit the fan is IME in for a rude awakening.

Regards,

Terence

[Ernie]

Hawkins' says, "theory is great, but can you do it?"

Dude Hawkins will smack you in the groin in a heartbeat ha ha

But I hear it's can you pull it off, skill level will dictate, but I have never seen wing chun as strong approach against a skilled fighter in a aware situation when you have decided to square off and your going to have a go and see what happens,
Now you’re dealing with conditioning, pain tolernence and attributes

But on that note I have seen allot of dudes that I wall eat punches for lunch
When I sparred with Thai dudes they were real good at vibeing off pain.
But at soon as I took them out of their game balls eyes head butts tight ballistic elbows and low line knee shots they were not conditioned for that type of pain,

Now this has been my personal research subject to change as I evolve

But I have yet to see anyone be able to hard-core there nuts and eyes

The key is if you want to eye jab a boxer better know how to box and if your going to get a UN interrupted bite on a ground guy have some ground experience

Have to know your timing and position

Got run 4th of July festivities are calling

[AmanuJRY]

To add to the original question,

How important to you are the people train/work out with and/or teach?

By this I mean,as an instructor/school owner, do you interview or screen people to see if they will have a negative impact on your group? Do you have a grace period or trial period that you can observe people and their 'tude?

As a student, if you don't like or have a personallity conflict with someone else at your school, do you still train? Is your instructor open to discussing the issue?

As a training partner, are you as concerned with your partner's development as well as your own?

I think most of the bad elements in WC today are people who have a predisposition towards such behavior or people with such predisposition who have been coached by someone with similar pesonality issues.
How important is it to you that your training environment is comfortable (in the psychological sense) and focused on learing (real learning, not just flowered over technique) and building confidence in your skill, not smack-talking other styles or liniages.
Is it our responsibility, as instructors or sihings, to try and provide these types of people with therapy for their issues or weed them out of the group for the benifit of the whole group?

Maybe I'm just ranting now, but then I feel that the group I train with is important to my development and me to theirs.

[anerlich]

"By this I mean,as an instructor/school owner, do you interview or screen people to see if they will have a negative impact on your group?"

As my coach says, "the d*ckheads weed themselves out". He's occasionally said "we're full up" to punters who come through the door who are obvious fruit loops. A few people have been asked to leave over the years.

"Do you have a grace period or trial period that you can observe people and their 'tude?"

Yeah, it starts with their first class and continues throughout their membership of the academy.

"As a student, if you don't like or have a personallity conflict with someone else at your school, do you still train?"

As a senior student and assistant instructor, I have a duty to help people fit in as well as possible. I've generally found the best way to deal with people with whom I have personaility clashes is to be extra nice to them, and maybe do them a favour, be it extra attention, loaning them a tape, or something similar.

"Is your instructor open to discussing the issue?"

My instructor is extremely attentive to any such clashes and discord and ENCOURAGES such discussion. He's very occasionally held conflict resolution meetings when he felt they became necessary.

"As a training partner, are you as concerned with your partner's development as well as your own? "

Most people start out concerned only with their own development. Over time, friendships develop, and the pleasure and value of helping your juniors becomes apparent. This stuff's way too hard to stick with if you don't have friends doing it with you. You don't get good at an MA by yourself.

[anerlich]

WRT eye gouges, groin shots, etc. you can probably use these effectively if you have game without them. If you can't fight, these tactics won't help much without a lot of luck.

As a grappler once said, "if you can't beat us *with* rules, how are you going to beat us without them?"

[sihing]

Any definition of skill is very subjective, especially when concerned with WC. In comparison it is like when your buddy thinks the chick walking down the street in her short skirt is the greatest thing since sliced bread, and your there scratching your head wondering what's so hot about her. It all depends on what you’re used to and what you have been exposed to. Logically skill would mean to me someone that has a high level of competence in all areas of a specific subject. We all think that our instructors are skilful people, time will tell that tale. If the skill is not there you will notice it over time for sure. Now as for always having to test ourselves to everyone, I do not agree with that. Like I said it will be reflected in everything you do while you are teaching and in those that you have taught. I'm not sure what everyone else is learning, but for me after the basics have been learned, then understood and worked at over and over again, there comes a time when they become second nature and require less practice to maintain. We have many students that have less and less time to train due to life commitments, but still have a high skill level due to their training in the beginning stages of their training. Not all martial arts allow this to happen, but WC is a very different MA and due to its adherence to the science of movement and pure logic, it allows us as practicioners of the art to become effective fighters(or the best fighters we can be according to our genetic disposition) without sacrificing hours and hours in the training hall throughout our MA careers.


Many times over the last few weeks I have had prospects come into the school and say the same thing. After researching many schools throughout the city, including mine, they come back saying that we know what we are doing in my kwoon. Did I have to fight with these prospective students? Nope. Did I have to demonstrate to them by putting myself up on a pedestal and making them feel inferior to me? Nope. All we do in the school I belong to is make them feel comfortable, give them adequate explanations of why things are done the way they are, answer their questions, and make them feel that they can achieve the exact same skill I have, as the art of Wing Chun was created for that very purpose, for everyone to learn on equal ground. And they can!
Sihing

[Ultimatewingchun]

"The key is if you want to eye jab a boxer better know how to box and if your going to get an uninterrupted bite on a ground guy have some ground experience... Have to know your timing and position." (Ernie)

This is the whole point..."dirty tactics"...for lack of a better term...WILL work in a fight. But the more you know HOW to to fight - the more often those tactics will work.

Sometimes these kinds of moves can be used to set up a more "conventional" fight-ender kind of move(s)...and sometimes the more conventional stuff can set up a dirty tactic move as a fight-ender...

either way - the more you have really trained in a fighting system(s)...the more successful you will be.

It's not a question of one or the other...that would be a false choice.

[Matrix]

Originally posted by sihing
Any definition of skill is very subjective, especially when concerned with WC. ........... If the skill is not there you will notice it over time for sure.........After researching many schools throughout the city, including mine, they come back saying that we know what we are doing in my kwoon.
So, it's not subjective. Lack of skill is apparent, especially when comparing against other schools. Sounds pretty objective to me. Just becuase you're not fighting everyone who walks through the door, doesn't mean that there are not other objective means of comparison.



Originally posted by sihing
Not all martial arts allow this to happen, but WC is a very different MA and due to its adherence to the science of movement and pure logic, it allows us as practicioners of the art to become effective fighters(or the best fighters we can be according to our genetic disposition) without sacrificing hours and hours in the training hall throughout our MA careers. I find that training in WC requires as least as much, if not more training than most other arts I've been involved in the past. Is it just me?? I wouldn't be too surprised if it was. Maybe you just can't teach an old dog new tricks.... ;)
Just because something adheres to "science" or "logic" does not mean that it is necessarily easier to learn. In some ways the apparent simplicity masks the complexity.

Bill

[Ernie]

AmanuJRY

How important to you are the people train/work out with and/or teach?

By this I mean, as an instructor/school owner, do you interview or screen people to see if they will have a negative impact on your group?

[[[[[I always try and get to know the person a bit, what there trying to get from this training, past experience as a reference point, since in my personal training group I only do private or small group I have complete control of who I want to deal with, but when I coach at Gary’s place I have to deal with anyone who walks through the door and when some one is coming in with a chip in there shoulder, I first let them swim around a bit see how the interact ‘ some times people are just nervous but don’t want to show it so the over compensate ‘’ but if the attitude continues I spend time training with them get a feel for what’s going on with them and then talk to them during the session and often after class when everyone is gone , they usually get real excited about working one on one with a ‘’senior ‘’ so I tell them to act right and I’ll help them out , if they still don’t get it then I just stop working with and usually everyone else does as well and they fade out .]]]

As a student, if you don't like or have a personality conflict with someone else at your school, do you still train? Is your instructor open to discussing the issue?

[[[I just don’t’ work with that individual, since I never view wing chun / chi sau as an actual fight how people get there rocks when there ego is flaring has always made me laugh so I never take it personal just looks like a spoiled child trying to get there way. soon enough a person like that has no partners to work with]]]]]]

As a training partner, are you as concerned with your partner's development as well as your own?

[[[[This is a great question and something I try and pound into to peoples heads all the time, your partner is more important then you, if both parties believe this there is symbiotic growth and good times to be had along the way, if you want the best for the person your working with you will give them your best, good energy when your feeding drills, honesty when they need correction and no ego. I have always had this with the people that taught me and the guys I consider my training partners, another thing I do after were done is a sit down session were we get critique from each other and a outside source ‘’ who ever is the coach ‘’ this way things are honest and there is a genuine bond]]]]

.
How important is it to you that your training environment is comfortable (in the psychological sense) and focused on learning (real learning, not just flowered over technique) and building confidence in your skill, not smack-talking other styles or lineages.

[[[[[As I tell people don’t worry about fighting another wing chun dude, odds are you won’t find one in the street so stop dissecting approaches, you can learn something from anyone. as for flowered over techniques, pressure test it, and ask yourself this what is this drill teaching me, ‘’ body mechanics, attributes what? and how long will it take to develop it and what is the possibility that this will come up in a fight, just a general rule of thumb

Is it our responsibility, as instructors or sihings, to try and provide these types of people with therapy for their issues or weed them out of the group for the benefit of the whole group?

[[[[In life help were ever you could, be as giving as you can, but at the same time be honest with yourself and the person]]]

Maybe I'm just ranting now, but then I feel that the group I train with is important to my development and me to theirs.

[[[[Not so much a rant as the right way to be]]]]]

[Matrix]

Originally posted by AmanuJRY
As a student, if you don't like or have a personallity conflict with someone else at your school, do you still train? Is your instructor open to discussing the issue? I used to try to avoid these types. However, I've changed my tact in recent years. In the real world, you can't always avoid those who you "don't like". You may need to work with them, regardless of your personal feelings. Besides, everyone has something to teach you. Sometimes it's "how to deal with difficult people". Having said this, sometimes there are people who are just too negative to deal with. These people should be asked to leave the school by the Sifu and senior students.

While it is very important that the environment be comfortable and focused on learning, it is equally important that we each come into the environment with that same objective - we are in fact part of that environment and responsible for it. We need to open our mind to learning, otherwise, even the best environment will not be of much value. The concern for your training partner's development must be equal to your own. A rising tide carries all boats. In other words, as I make my fellow students better, they make me better, and vice versa.

Your mileage may vary.

Bill

[Ernie]

Any definition of skill is very subjective, especially when concerned with WC.

[[[[I humbly disagree skill can be measured 2 people walk into a room only one walks out the other is carried out, crude but true. now if your talking wing chun training system skill that doesn’t correlate to fighting skill. like wow you got a great root or gee your pak sau is killer. this would be equivalent to going to a boxing gym and saying man I’m the best in town at a jab drill or when I work the speed bag no one can do it like me, you see these are just minor sections of the whole. Ok fine what about the rest of the package and how well can you apply it in an aggressive situation. Something that has always intrigued me when wing chun people high light just one thing like man his pole form is the best or his chi sau is un touchable his 2nd form is out of this works, that just tells me what does he suck at everything else and how does that even matter in live application]]]]]]]]


Did I have to demonstrate to them by putting myself up on a pedestal and making them feel inferior to me?

[[[[What pedestal? if you buy a car you take it for a test drive, you can express skill with out hurting any one, that is one way to measure skill, I would respect a person that wants to know that there getting especially if it’s about combat effective training, it’s not ballet or a day care center, it’s about giving them something that might make the difference between life or death, now I know some people just want the shirt and the secret hand shake, be able to sit on the golf course and tell there friend how the studying in martial arts .and those people need to be catered to as well , but if you got people coming from a rough neighbor hood that have a genuine need they will require proof , I know I did and still question and test my teacher to this day , and he wouldn’t have it any other way ]]]]

[sihing]

Quote: Matrix
"So, it's not subjective. Lack of skill is apparent, especially when comparing against other schools. Sounds pretty objective to me. Just becuase you're not fighting everyone who walks through the door, doesn't mean that there are not other objective means of comparison."

Maybe I didn't explain the example I was using when I said that prospective students came back to my school after checking others out in the city and said we know what we are doing. By this I meant that our approach and our way of explaining things and the knowledge we had towards lineage, history, technical questions appeared to be superior to the prospect than in the other schools visited. People would tell me that usually the other schools were run in a unprofessional manner and the instructor couldn't anwser all the questions put to them in the same manner as we could in the school I belong to. The question of skill never came up, as I would never even ask that question to a prospective student or make any statement regarding the skill in my school as compared to any others. Hope this clairfy's my earlier post, and that I still believe that skill is subjective.

Sihing

[Matrix]

Originally posted by Ernie
, now I know some people just want the shirt and the secret hand shake, Ernie, There's a secret hand shake !!
Bro, you've been holding out on me. ;)


....sit on the golf course and tell there friend how the studying in martial arts .and those people need to be catered to as well , but if you got people coming from a rough neighbor hood that have a genuine need they will require proof I ususally meet these people at parties. There parents must be very proud. :p
Seriously though, these people can be catered to at any number of Mc Dojo's in town. They just want the drive-thru service anyways.

Ultimately we are talking about Martial Arts here, not Fine Arts.

Bill

[Ernie]

Ernie, There's a secret hand shake !!
Bro, you've been holding out on me


ok here it is

you put you left in
you take your left foot out
you lock your pinkie fingers and you shake it all about

and for the modified ghetto version you pound you hand on your chest and ad in a sup dog

[Matrix]

Originally posted by sihing
The question of skill never came up, as I would never even ask that question to a prospective student or make any statement regarding the skill in my school as compared to any others. Hope this clairfy's my earlier post, and that I still believe that skill is subjective. The ability to explain (i.e teach) and answer technical questions can be measured objectively. As for skill, if you have to tell me how skilled you are then we have another problem. It should be apparent by watching a typical class.

Skill is not objective. There are standards of measure, and I'm not talking about coloured belts. Some people may not be discerning enough to tell the difference, but that, like the skill itself can be developed in time.

Caveat Emptor,
Bill

[Matrix]

Originally posted by Ernie
ok here it is ........ Ernie, Thanks....... and that's the 3.15 degree pinkie finger, right? :D

P.S. I guess it's not a secret any more.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Originally posted by sihing
"Not all martial arts allow this to happen, but WC is a very different MA and due to its adherence to the science of movement and pure logic, it allows us as practicioners of the art to become effective fighters (or the best fighters we can be according to our genetic disposition) without sacrificing hours and hours in the training hall throughout our MA careers."

I'm sorry, James Roller (sihing)...but every single word of this quote is NOT TRUE.

Every word.

And the ideas put forth here promote laziness, false pride, and disrespect.

Laziness because hour and hours MUST be sacrificed in order to become an "effective fighter".

False pride (and a false sense of security) because it implies that other martial arts don't adhere to science and logic - which they do...

and Disrespect both for other non-WC arts, but also in the way that many of those other martial art practitioners look at WC.

They scorn the attitude (and the fighting abilities) of those that espouse the attitude you preach - and with good reason.

[sihing]

Well Vic we usually do not agree anyways on most things, so to each there own....best of luck to you....

Sihing

[Ultimatewingchun]

And good luck to you too, James...unless you start wearing something funny-looking on your head.

Then all bets are off!

[Matrix]

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
...unless you start wearing something funny-looking on your head. Then all bets are off! That reminds me, I remember that Ernie had made a statement earlier on about why people would want to be a "grand poobah" and the thing that crossed my mind was........ of course, it's the hats. :D

Bill

[Matrix]

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
...but every single word of this quote is NOT TRUE.

Every word.

And the ideas put forth here promote laziness, false pride, and disrespect.

Laziness because hour and hours MUST be sacrificed in order to become an "effective fighter". Victor,
You said it far more bluntly than I did, but in principle I absolutely agree with you. I must admit that I was absolutely baffled by the original quote. Say what?? :rolleyes:

Bill

[sihing]

Baffled?? How can you be baffled by what I said? If you believe that WC is not more than you average MA then you are denying its history also. Wasn't that the whole reason for its creation? We may disagree about who was involved with the history of WC(Ng Mui, Yim Wing Chun, etc) but the whole idea behind the creation of the art was to be a more effective one, one learned faster and one that would be able to be used by all comers, not a elite few...Like I said earlier, I'm not sure what "you'all" are learning but for me WC is a level above most all the other MA out there, just in its concepts and principals alone put it a step above most everything else. Yes of course one has to put the time in to learn all there is to learn in WC but in the end there will be a difference, and I have no problem stating this fact. I you disagree then you are all on the wrong forum, the JKD forum is just below this one...

Sometimes I wonder where you people are coming from...but you can think what you like, it’s not my mission to convince anyone of anything.

Sihing

[Matrix]

Originally posted by sihing
I you disagree then you are all on the wrong forum, the JKD forum is just below this one... James,
I see that your method of discussion is to insult those who do not see things your way. Interesting approach. I think you're blowing things out of proportion.

You say "Yes of course one has to put the time in to learn all there is to learn in WC but in the end there will be a difference, and I have no problem stating this fact." So, when did I say otherwise? I said that my experience indicated that I need to train at least as hard as other arts I have been involved in, maybe more. Is the end product better, I hope so, or I'm wasting a lot time. However, your original comment implied that skill comes without the sacrifice of training, because it is logical and scientific. Sorry, but I disagree, and no, I won't be going anywhere....but thanks for asking. ;)

Bill

[Ernie]

[[ denying its history ]]

god yes with a passion


[[Sometimes I wonder where you people are coming from ]]]

hey i'm one of '' you '' can't wait till i'm one of ''those'' people


[[[ Like I said earlier, I'm not sure what "you'all" are learning but for me WC is a level above most all the other MA out there,]]]

and of course this comes from training in all other systems and having first hand experience in comparing fighting and testing against most all martial arts , because i'm sure this wouldn't just come from speculation hmmm

hey now i'm a '' you all '' this is getting fun :D

[[[I you disagree then you are all on the wrong forum, the JKD forum is just below this one...]]]]

really and i'm sure if there were a marital ''arts'' Cryogenics forum you would be all over it

ha ha sorry man just couldn't help myself

but it does go back to my original post what are you giving back towards the advancement of wing chun ?

[sihing]

First of all I'm not here to insult anyone, if one does not agree with another are they not allowed to state there case? When I talk about WC being an "advanced" Martial art here's what I mean. One has to practice and practice and practice some more, along with a thorough understanding of all the concepts and theories involved with WC. I did just that for about the first 7 years of my involvement with the art (WC is also my first and only martial art studied). Then after that, the skill was there, I have since found that I do not need to do the same things at the same intensity level or the same frequency to maintain or even elevate my skill. I feel better now as an overall practitioner of the art than ever before. Yes, if I choose to start a very strict program of conditioning and WC training I would improve, but for what purpose? I haven't had to use WC in a fight for years now, and I am quiet satisfied with how my tools perform (speed, flexibility, sensitivity, etc..).

The impression I have been getting from some on this forum is that WC is just like any other MA, and that one has to "always" train at high intensity levels, even after years and years of WC practice, to maintain the skills they have, and that also other arts must be incorporated into one's WC repertoire to compete on the street against the fighters of today. If I have misunderstood or offended anyone, then I apologize, by this is what I have been hearing on this forum, that's why I directed people to the JKD forum, because that's what it sounds like to me. WC has all the tools needed for the average JOE to defend themselves. After the hard work is put in to learn what has to be learned(a good 3 to 5yrs at least) then the skills "should be" there, therefore intensity levels can decrease and life can be enjoyed again, without losing all that was acquired in the training.

Again, I am not here to insult, just state my case....

Sihing

[Ernie]

sihing
i learned long ago when it comes to this forum and people i meet that train ,
it is all based of your individual goal
if your training as a hobby and to deal with the average joe and you are happy being the average joe then
by all means '' be happy ''

i myself have a very active life far beyond average , i push myself in all that i do ,
so that same ethic will be in my wing chun training

i also don't play with average joes , i deal with skilled athletic people that train like nut bags this is what we enjoy and brings good times , we would rather be sparring , training, doing chi sau or in the gym then drinking smokeing or over eating at the local pub or sitting infront of the tv with a beer and pizza yelling at some one else performing on the tube .

sometimes when i'm tired and everything hurts and the alrm goes off and it's still dark outside but i have to meet my boys for a run or in the ring before they go to work
i wish i was a average joe , but that is not in my blood

doesn't mean one is better or more important then the other just different life choices


you will find a seperation of application and training from these different types of people

if you are happy were you are at then you have found your way and that is the answer for you but that may not be what works for me :D

if training hard and pushing myself testing and refineing my skill means i belong on a jkd forum then perhaps i do and i take that as a compliment :D

as for why ?
i would push , why not ? how else will you find that inner honesty

[t_niehoff]

First of all I'm not here to insult anyone, if one does not agree with another are they not allowed to state there case? When I talk about WC being an "advanced" Martial art here's what I mean.

**"Advanced" compared to what? Isn't that somewhat of an insult to other arts?

One has to practice and practice and practice some more, along with a thorough understanding of all the concepts and theories involved with WC. I did just that for about the first 7 years of my involvement with the art (WC is also my first and only martial art studied). Then after that, the skill was there,

**It's not a matter of "the skill was there" -- skill is not a thing obtained, it is a relative measure. Are you skillful enough to fight *well* using your WCK? How do you know if you didn't fight other skillful fighters?

I have since found that I do not need to do the same things at the same intensity level or the same frequency to maintain or even elevate my skill.

**Are you fighing? If not, how do you know you are maintaining your skill? From drills? FWIW, drills, forms, etc. do not develop fighting skill; you only learn to fight from fighting. Forms, drills, etc. are the "training wheels" of fighting; you need to go past them to say you can ride a bike.

I feel better now as an overall practitioner of the art than ever before.

**Lots of people "feel good" about their abilities (people take MAs to feel better). That means nothing unless it is backed up by experience. It is the experience that validates "feelings".

Yes, if I choose to start a very strict program of conditioning and WC training I would improve, but for what purpose? I haven't had to use WC in a fight for years now, and I am quiet satisfied with how my tools perform (speed, flexibility, sensitivity, etc..).

**That's fine, not everyone wants to be the best they can be; some are satisfied with more modest accomplishments.

The impression I have been getting from some on this forum is that WC is just like any other MA,

**WCK has its own approach to fighting but is like every other MA in that our bodies are the same, and what it takes to train our bodies or keep our bodies functioning at certain levels is the same.

and that one has to "always" train at high intensity levels, even after years and years of WC practice, to maintain the skills they have, and that also other arts must be incorporated into one's WC repertoire to compete on the street against the fighters of today.

**If you actually fight, you'll find that without regular reinforcement (fighting) you will lose the timing, conditioning, speed of action (changing), etc. to perform at the level you are presently at or improve. This is true of all physical activities. The only way to learn to fight is by fighting; the only way to improve your fighting is to fight. As far as "incorparating other arts", it depends on what you want. What do you do if you are taken to the ground? If it matters to you, then you'd better learn some groundfighting. If you think your WCK has groundfighting, then go to a gym where they roll and get out there and see for yourself if you can make it work.

If I have misunderstood or offended anyone, then I apologize, by this is what I have been hearing on this forum, that's why I directed people to the JKD forum, because that's what it sounds like to me. WC has all the tools needed for the average JOE to defend themselves.

**What does the average WCK Joe do if he's tackled to the ground or grabbed in a headlock. If you think you have the ability to deal with these or related problems, then go give it a try with someone good at grappling as your partner.

**More imprtantly, WCK is not to defend yourself, it is to fight. Period. Sometimes we need to fight to defend ourselves, but self-defense involves a great deal more than WCK. And, I disagree with your assessment of WCK -- as Wong said, "Wing Chun is a good horse but few can ride her." IME WCK is a small, uncomplicated approach to fighting that takes a a very high level of development to use *well*.

After the hard work is put in to learn what has to be learned(a good 3 to 5yrs at least) then the skills "should be" there, therefore intensity levels can decrease and life can be enjoyed again, without losing all that was acquired in the training.

**Put your opinion to the test -- go fight some skilled fighters and see for yourself how "skilled" you are. Then decrease the level of intensity of your training and go back and fight some more. Then tell us the results.

Regards,

Terence

[Matrix]

Originally posted by sihing
First of all I'm not here to insult anyone, if one does not agree with another are they not allowed to state there case? As opposed to being told to post elsewhere, sure.


I did just that for about the first 7 years of my involvement with the art (WC is also my first and only martial art studied). That's where you have me beat. I've studied several martial arts since I started with Shotokan karate many years ago. I've only been involved in WC a few short years.


Then after that, the skill was there, I have since found that I do not need to do the same things at the same intensity level or the same frequency to maintain or even elevate my skill. I am not there yet, and really don't know if I ever will be. So I can't relate to your comments. If we break things down, concepts that I used to find more difficult are now second nature, however the intensity has merely been focused elsewhere..... to the next level so to speak. It's a lifelong journey, not a single destination.


WC has all the tools needed for the average JOE to defend themselves. That's why I love it. It does not depend on superior strength or speed. If you look up Average Joe in the dictionary, you will see my picture. ;)


After the hard work is put in to learn what has to be learned(a good 3 to 5yrs at least) then the skills "should be" there, therefore intensity levels can decrease and life can be enjoyed again, without losing all that was acquired in the training. I agree with the sentiment here, but I'm not sure why you think that some other arts would be any different. In particular, I am thinking of arts such as Tai Chi.


Again, I am not here to insult, just state my case.... You did a better job of it this time. Your first post was not as concise, IMO. It led me to think that you believe WC is easier to learn than other arts, which has not been my experience. The concepts are simple, and yet it is so complex. It is the yin and yang of things.

Bill

[kj]

Originally posted by AmanuJRY
To add to the original question,

How important to you are the people train/work out with and/or teach?


Critically important. Even from the coldest and most selfish perspective, the people I work with are my top training assets.



By this I mean,as an instructor/school owner, do you interview or screen people to see if they will have a negative impact on your group?

Absolutely. The tricky part is making the right balance to be as inclusive as possible while at the same time mitigating risks of behavior that would be detrimental to individuals or the group on whole.


Do you have a grace period or trial period that you can observe people and their 'tude?


Yes. Our introductory period is 8 weeks - for mutual reasons. We get to know the prospective learner, and they get to experience us and our practice approach long enough to decide if it's really for them or not, with no need for ill feelings or regrets if it isn't. We also reserve the right to dismiss anyone at our discretion at any time if appropriate or necessary. More often than not, people figure out for themselves if we are "right for each other."



As a student, if you don't like or have a personallity conflict with someone else at your school, do you still train?

It would depend upon the nature, severity and ramifications of the conflict. Simply not liking someone probably wouldn't be a good enough reason for me leave (unless I didn't like everyone, LOL).OTOH, some behaviors would be sufficient for a parting of ways.

In addition to obvious considerations of the person "offending" me, and the pros and cons of staying versus leaving, I would consider things like whether or not my own presence is constructive to the learning environment. I'd introspect a bit on whether I too was contributing to the problem in some way. I'd also think about things like my ability to "creatively cope" or my ability to outlast the offender or "other" through sheer stubbornness. :D



Is your instructor open to discussing the issue?


Unless they themselves inquired, I would be unlikely to burden my teacher about personal issues or differences unless a) it was something quite severe and/or chronic b) and with real or potential impact to others (not just to me or offensive to my own selfish interest). I might "point" something out to ensure the instructor's awareness, but beyond that would likely manage my own needs as circumstances dictate, rather than pressing the point with the instructor or others if they remain unaffected, unconcerned or uninterested.


As a training partner, are you as concerned with your partner's development as well as your own?

In a sense, even more so. Even from a selfish perspective, the more my training mates improve, the better for them to help me. ;)



I think most of the bad elements in WC today are people who have a predisposition towards such behavior or people with such predisposition who have been coached by someone with similar pesonality issues.

Sadly, there is no shortage of people with "issues," or those easily offended by someone else's. It's not Wing Chun or even the martial arts environment, per se; it's just human nature.



How important is it to you that your training environment is comfortable (in the psychological sense) and focused on learing (real learning, not just flowered over technique) and building confidence in your skill, not smack-talking other styles or liniages.

As above, critically important. A rich, serious, safe, pleasant and effective learning environment doesn't sustain by magic - it must be cultivated and nurtured.

If people are emotionally distressed and distracted when coming to class, how can they adequately focus on learning? And why would they continue to participate in the long term? Some basic operations of human behavior, in this order:

1. People are most likely to do things they are rewarded for (get something they like). Thus rewarding people with something they like offers the best chance of sustaining desired behaviors or behavior change. (R+)
2. People also tend to do things when they are rewarded by having something unpleasant taken away (something bad or unpleasant stops happening). This can be almost as effective as giving something positive, especially if the level of pain was sufficiently high. (R-)
3. The best way to get people to stop doing something is to ignore what they are doing (the behavior will become extinct). This phenomenon occurs whether the behavior is desirable or undesirable. (E)
4. A less positive, less sustaining, and sometimes less effective approach for changing behavior is through some sort of punishment (an undesirable consequence). (P) Sometimes this is necessary with those who are resistant to the other more positive types of reinforcement, or are simply incorrigible in their behaviors.

Therefore, for example, if coming to class offers less reward (insufficient R+, R-, or too much E) or becomes more unpleasant than not coming to class (P), the outcome can be predicted.


Is it our responsibility, as instructors or sihings, to try and provide these types of people with therapy for their issues or weed them out of the group for the benifit of the whole group?

Not everyone would share these priorities and concerns, and not everyone would accept or assume such responsibility. For that matter, we don't even all share the same fundamental values.

But for my part, in answer to your question, yes. At the same time, I also understand that degrees of tolerance and acceptance are important; being only human, we all fall short of ideals and perfection often enough in practice. Thankfully a few generous souls have cut me some slack now and again. ;)


Maybe I'm just ranting now, but then I feel that the group I train with is important to my development and me to theirs.

You're in good company. Feel free to rant at will. :)

Regards,
- kj

[sihing]

Okay, although we have gotten way of the topic of this thread, I feel the need to reply to t_niehoff, so hopefully this is the last of it, but you never know, lol...

Its pretty obvious t_niehoff that you and I share very different opinions on WC effectiveness and training philosophies. First off, Advanced as compared to what? Well a gun is more advanced than a bow & arrow as a weapon, both have there place and can be used effectively, but there is not really a competiton when one brings a bow/arrow to a gun fight(realizing that both are experts in their respective fields). It's the same IMO with WC as compared to most all other martial arts out there today. Like I have said before I have been curious to see what the other arts have to offer and I have still not found anything that comes close to WC, at least not the WC I have learned and what is taught by my Sifu. Also, my Sifu, who has 40+ yrs of MA experience, and who after mastering two different forms of Kung-fu and studying others, dropped teaching and training in all of them after learning the WC he know teaches, I tend to believe him when he says that nothing compares to WC in combat(let it be stated that he has had fights in the street, against single and multiple(8+) opponents). I also trust what I believe and in my common sense, WC is just that "common sense" that's not so common.

How do I know I have improved? How do I know that I can fight? As a teacher I can evaluate myself, and I know within myself that I have improved and can still fight using it, I am honest with myself and know my limits. Also others have stated this to me, others that have previous experience in other styles that have joined our school. Do they have to praise me to make me feel good? Nope. They do it because the want to, not because they have to. It’s called recognition and I have no problem telling people when it is called for that they have improved. Does this mean I can kick your a$$ t_niehoff? Or that you can kick mine? Who knows and who cares. We will never know. You are free to do things they way you like and to think the way you like, your opinion is just as important as mine, but to say that one does not know how to fight when they haven't used their WC, I have to disagree with you on that one. Would I want to fight Mike Tyson, nope. Or some other pro UFC fighter, nope not really, but if the unfortunate happened and it was in the defence of someone in my family I would have no choice but to do my best against any and all comers, and I wouldn't really care as to what style they practice or how hard they train. I would engage and try to overwhelm them to gain the advantage, use the element of surprise(most people get surprised when one throws 6 or 7 punches to them in a second) and keep going till the job was done. The tools are in me and they will come out when needed and called for, as my "experience" has told me so, which validates my feelings toward my previous statements.

For those of you that like to experiment and like to train hard all the time for various reasons, to test your limits(Ernie for e.g.) or to find the "truth" in combat(Victor) then I commend all of you and admire all of you for your dedication and perseverance towards you own personal goals, but to say that we all have to follow this path to have "any chance" of defending ourselves in a combat situation is IMO not correct. I have proven it myself, seen it many times myself and heard too many testimonies to the contrary to believe anything otherwise.

Sihing

[Ernie]

Sihing,
No worries on my end definitely not trying make this some kind of wing chun witch hunt =)
So please take my comments as general points of discussion and not targeted towards the individual.
Some things you mentioned caused my usual knee jerk response and there nothing worse then kneeing myself for being a jerk =)
One thing you mentioned is your teachers experience and that links back to the original point of the thread

[[[[[It’s funny I read countless post about people connecting themselves with this or that figure in wing Chun. They take the identity or accomplishments as there own,]]]]]]

And this point

[[[[[[They take and feed off the reputations of others, they take and feed off the reputation of wing Chun

But what do they give back?]]]].

This mindset is what inspired my post, it such an easy road to get lost on, to live in the shadow of ones teacher, it’s warm and safe. But your walking in another mans footsteps not your own, how can you ever really know yourself until you make your own path, and by this thus giving back to the art you hold so dear?


Another example

[[[[I tend to believe him when he says that nothing compares to WC in combat (let it be stated that he has had fights in the street, against single and multiple (8+) opponents). I also trust what I believe]]]].


And further

[[[How do I know I have improved? How do I know that I can fight? As a teacher I can evaluate myself, and I know within myself that I have improved and can still fight using it, I am honest with myself and know my limits]]]]

I ask this question not just to you but all and myself. How do you really know yourself in a combative situation ‘’fog of war ‘’ if you have never been there? Or at least the nearest stressful simulation you can create?
How do we know in are hearts the information we are passing on to the next generation is correct if we in some way shape or form have not battle tested it to the best of our individual abilities?


Here is a little more

[[[[Also others have stated this to me, others that have previous experience in other styles that have joined our school. Do they have to praise me to make me feel good? Nope.]]]]

This is something any senior student or teacher can relate to, but the reality is if I believed what I was told from the people at my school or those that visit, then I could walk on water and part the red sea, people come to a new school because the never reached a level of expertise in there previous discipline, they never really learned to fight or they are just enamored by wing chun on paper, all it takes is a little trip to any pro boxing gym or Thai camp or mix martial art studio to bring you back to reality , how do you know your limits when some one is pouring water on your face saying are you all right holding up 2 fingers but you see 4 and they ask you what day it is and you respond thus day when its Saturday =)

[Phil Redmond]

Ernie wrote:
"I said I just cant help myself I’m a problem solver I passionately believe in research and development, break something down study all the components, see how they operate in singular and then combined fashion then cross reference it with other studies I have made in body mechanics and power generation, see if there is a common training methodology outside the system or some modern training apparatus that is better refined for that particular skill."

Remember that Chinese kung fu and Chinese culture itself is largely based on Confucsianism (sp)?. That's where the terms Sifu, sihing, sidai, etc; came from. If you work at a job you might have a supervisor/boss, line leader. In a corporation there is a President, Vice- President. The proper term in Cantonese for what we do is "Mo Sut", not kung fu. Kung Fu is a vernacular term meaning an aquired skill. A teacher, lawyer, carpenter, musician is doing his/her kung fu. Mo Sut means specifically "martial/military art" In the military you have "superior "officers.That doesn't mean that they are "superior". It's simply a title used in a "military/martial" organization. I hear where you're coming from though from a western mindset. "Ain't nobody better than me". And that's all good. It's when people use the term "master" to mean something above reproach and mystical the problem begins. To me the term "master" means, Woo Hoo. No more testing......grin. I have only one master and he's above reproach because he's not of the flesh. Now talking about what are we giving back. I remember Sifu saying that martial arts are like a cookie jar. Everyone's taking cookies out, but but no one's putting cookies back into the jar. I used to go to the bandshell in CEntral Park every Weekend in the late 70'early 80's. Guys from man different martial arts would practice there. I met a Northern Shaolin guy who had a wicked Iron Broom sweep that came out of nowhere during sparring. In 1983 I asked Sifu how to defend against a fast Iron Broom. He showed me a technique by dropping his whole body on my sweeping leg that I had not seen in WC before. I asked him if it was WC.
He said "no, but it works" Get my point?

[sihing]

Ernie, I must say that I appreciate your way of communication, you make your point without stepping on anyone’s toes, lol. I think all of what you are saying has to do with two things, 1) one’s own experiences and 2) one’s perception of things. I don’t know you at all but from reading your posts it is probably safe to say that you have more combat experience than most, including myself. I have only used this stuff a few times, and not in the last few years. For some reason I am lucky that way, I can go out somewhere and never even get close to a confrontation with someone, the closest yet is while I am driving and dealing with the crazy’s on hiways, lol. Now it makes sense that if one has had to use their skills in MA in real combat situations, this will give them a different perspective on things, and may or may not give them an advantage. Also does sparring supplement this if one has not had the opportunity to use it on the street? This debate has appeared on this forum before, and many people believe it does and some believe it doesn’t. So then my question would be, what is one supposed to do if they never get the opportunity to use it on the street. Well that is where Sifu`s/coaches come in. Have you ever heard the expression” Experience is the best teacher", well I have a better one "Someone else’s experience is the best teacher", what’s the difference, basically it has to do with not reinventing the wheel philosophy. If one has already attained a goal that I want to also attain then I can get there faster if I use his/her experience and do not make the same mistakes they already made. When I say that I trust my Sifu`s advice it does not necessarily mean I am walking in his shadow or making myself feel special because I am associated with him. I am proud of my relationship with my Sifu and I am lucky to have such a man in my life, but I do not base my identity on my relationship with him, nor do I base my fighting ability on the fact that I am his student. And let me tell I know people that do just that, so I know the difference. I also realize that I may not have all his attributes or in this case "genius" when it comes to MA and fighting. But we all can still learn a thing or two about combat from people that are much more skilled than ourselves. Not everyone that comes through our school leaves with great combat ability, but I will say that they at least know a few things that may help them get out of a situation when needed. People have to sooner or later take responsibility for their training and ability to defend themselves, all I am saying is that IMO WC makes it easier for them to attain this ability.

Concerning combat ability, basically I have confidence in the art that it works in reality situations. Again, I have used it, I have tested myself in gradings during random attacks by fellow students that were "really" trying to hit me and it worked, I have seen others do the same, and have heard many testimonials. On the theoretical side for example, in the Wing Chun I teach we like to use the "blindside" theory that GM Cheung uses, which is basically flanking our opponents and for a moment having the advantage of using two hands against one. Now it is a fact that when one can get to this position you will have an advantage, although it will not last long. Now the question is how hard is it to get to this position? Well its no harder than getting into any other position, once the idea is understood and practiced that is. So IMO its fair to say that this will work in most situations, especially if the one you are fighting has no idea what this strategy is all about or that you have this ability.

In closing, what have I given back to the art? Well good question. I think my great belief in what the art represents, my promotion of the art through people I have had the privilege of teaching, and my belief that learning a art like WC will ultimately make one a better person first, before they learn to fight, and that this is the more important trait to learn by studying Wing Chun.

Sihing

[t_niehoff]

Its pretty obvious t_niehoff that you and I share very different opinions on WC effectiveness and training philosophies. First off, Advanced as compared to what? Well a gun is more advanced than a bow & arrow as a weapon, both have there place and can be used effectively, but there is not really a competiton when one brings a bow/arrow to a gun fight(realizing that both are experts in their respective fields). It's the same IMO with WC as compared to most all other martial arts out there today.

**OK, if you think WCK is "more advanced" than other MAs, why not get out there and demonstrate that "superiority"? People can "believe" anything -- some people believe in Bigfoot too. It's no coincidence IMO that the folks that fight with WCK don't hype it as "superior" and the folks that don't fight (and hence never compare skills) always seem to think it is.

Like I have said before I have been curious to see what the other arts have to offer and I have still not found anything that comes close to WC, at least not the WC I have learned and what is taught by my Sifu. Also, my Sifu, who has 40+ yrs of MA experience, and who after mastering two different forms of Kung-fu and studying others, dropped teaching and training in all of them after learning the WC he know teaches, I tend to believe him when he says that nothing compares to WC in combat(let it be stated that he has had fights in the street, against single and multiple(8+) opponents).

**Here is my opinion: most WCK "masters", "grandmasters", and "sifus" -- including those with 40 years experience -- couldn't fight their way out of a paper bag. And do you know why I say that? Because they don't fight. It's as simple as that. If you don't fight (and fight regularly) you will not, and cannot, develop good fighting skills. Period. Think you or your sifu have good fighting skills? Easy enough to find out -- go down to a local MMA gym and fight.


I also trust what I believe and in my common sense, WC is just that "common sense" that's not so common.

**Belief and "commmon sense" are one thing -- experience is another. Why not find out for sure?

How do I know I have improved? How do I know that I can fight? As a teacher I can evaluate myself, and I know within myself that I have improved and can still fight using it, I am honest with myself and know my limits.


**You don't know your limits unless you've encountered them.

Also others have stated this to me, others that have previous experience in other styles that have joined our school. Do they have to praise me to make me feel good? Nope. They do it because the want to, not because they have to. It’s called recognition and I have no problem telling people when it is called for that they have improved. Does this mean I can kick your a$$ t_niehoff? Or that you can kick mine? Who knows and who cares. We will never know. You are free to do things they way you like and to think the way you like, your opinion is just as important as mine, but to say that one does not know how to fight when they haven't used their WC, I have to disagree with you on that one.

**You're right that all of our opinions are just that -- our opinions. My point is that I don't need to rely on opinions or belief, I can test my skills. You can't learn to box without boxing; you can't learn to grapple without grappling; and you can't learn to fight, with WCK or anything else, without fighting. If you think you can, then what's the problem testing your belief?


Would I want to fight Mike Tyson, nope. Or some other pro UFC fighter, nope not really, but if the unfortunate happened and it was in the defence of someone in my family I would have no choice but to do my best against any and all comers, and I wouldn't really care as to what style they practice or how hard they train. I would engage and try to overwhelm them to gain the advantage, use the element of surprise(most people get surprised when one throws 6 or 7 punches to them in a second) and keep going till the job was done. The tools are in me and they will come out when needed and called for, as my "experience" has told me so, which validates my feelings toward my previous statements.

**It's fine to say "you would do your best" -- but what if your best turns out to be little or nothing? If you want to learn to fight, why not actually fight -- see if you can really do what you think you can?

For those of you that like to experiment and like to train hard all the time for various reasons, to test your limits(Ernie for e.g.) or to find the "truth" in combat(Victor) then I commend all of you and admire all of you for your dedication and perseverance towards you own personal goals, but to say that we all have to follow this path to have "any chance" of defending ourselves in a combat situation is IMO not correct. I have proven it myself, seen it many times myself and heard too many testimonies to the contrary to believe anything otherwise.

**I've heard lots of stories too -- and they're just that: stories. WCK or MAs is no different than any other physical activity: if you want to get good, you need to actually do the activity. Only in some MAs is there the myth that you can become a skilled fighter without fighting. If you don't believe it is a myth, then just check it out for yourself.


Regards,

Terence

[sihing]

Quote:T_nieoff
"**Here is my opinion: most WCK "masters", "grandmasters", and "sifus" -- including those with 40 years experience -- couldn't fight their way out of a paper bag. And do you know why I say that? Because they don't fight. It's as simple as that. If you don't fight (and fight regularly) you will not, and cannot, develop good fighting skills. Period. Think you or your sifu have good fighting skills? Easy enough to find out -- go down to a local MMA gym and fight."

Jeez you sound like the you know it all. Can you actually believe this statement you just made? So your saying that because they no longer fight they can't fight anymore, what kind of logic is that? Sugar Ray Lenoard has been out of the ring now for how long, 10yrs? Do you think he would get his ass kicked in the street. I would say 70% chance that he wouldn't. He still has something left I would say. Same goes for William Cheung, Leung Ting, my Sifu who is 50, and Yip Chun for example, a man in his 70's he probably would do alright in a fight for a man of his age, compared to a man of similar age, body structure(small) and no MA training, just because of the fact that his body will at least react in one way or the other. In your way of thinking, someone that learns WC but never uses it is just as worse off as someone that doesn't take anything at all, again I do not see the logic here.

Why don't I go out and prove it? If I did then I guess my ego would have won. I have nothing to prove, and if one thinks contrary to my belief's then more power to you. Plus I'm more scared of what kind of damage I would have to inflict on the person to prove the point than my need to actually have to prove it. If I did go out to prove WC effectiveness would we have to fight to the death? What outcome would have to happen for this to be proven or disproven? I'm not sure if the consequences are worth the answers you and I are looking for. Also maybe your criteria for testing a arts effectiveness is not sufficient in my or other opinion, then what? Whose "testing" standards do we use?

Sihing

[Ernie]

Ernie, I must say that I appreciate your way of communication; you make your point without stepping on anyone’s toes,


[[[[Not my goal, we are all brothers connected by a universal umbilical cord that is wing chun, and I might fight, disagree and even resort to name calling in the end there will always be a underlined respect, with out respect there is no truth or honesty in our words or actions]]]

I don’t know you at all but from reading your posts it is probably safe to say that you have more combat experience than most, including myself.

[[[Experience is subjective my friend, maybe I’m just dumb or stubborn and it takes me getting hit on the head 100 times before I believe what was right in front of me all along, perhaps you never need to get hit on the head and you just picked it up who knows who cares as long as we are both advancing from our individual experiences =)

Like you said a smart man learns from the mistakes of others, and the experience of others, I agree to a degree, we need coaches to guide up and prep us for the real experiences but we still need to ‘’ what ever personal level ‘’ has our own experiences.

I could tell you all about having sex what it feels like and how to do what were and when and you might say oh I get it, but not until you have it for yourself will you truly understand =)]]]]

As for giving back, if you believe in what you teach in your heart and pass it on then you give back in that sense alone, my goal was not to ‘’convince anyone of anything ‘’ but to just make people pause and think. And I get to pause and think when you are all so kind to respond

[AmanuJRY]

Just to add, the idea of skill being good, better or best is subjective, and to say someone who has trained for anything over ten years does not have good skill is insane. If someone has done anything that long and isn't at least good at it, they should try something else cause they are wasting their time.

How do you judge good skill?

How do you judge great skill?

You could boast how many fights you've won, but what does that prove. <sarchasm> "I beat 12 guys in one fight" yeah but they were all 85 y.o. and invalid </sarchasm>

The only way we can judge good/great/best is by matching skill. This is done in combat sports, but if we don't participate in combat as a sport then where are we going to be able to match skill. As Ernie has stated, if someone is exceptional at chi sau or forms, etc. it does not prove their combat effectivness (paraphrased).

Sparring is the closest test of skill to real fighting. The closer your sparring session is to a real fight, the better experience gained.

[anerlich]

talking about fat. Recently I met a WC master who said WC doesn't get you fit. In fact, WC teaches you not to use any muscle strength. So don't look down on WC masters who look out of shape, they are more dangerous than you think because they hardly have to burn any calories to deal with their students

Apparently you are about 100,000 times more likely to die from a lifestyle-related heart attack than you are from an assault. So it would seem that practising an MA in this fashion was a very poor survival strategy.

I can go along with the idea that you can get 95% of the way to being as good as you're going to get, as a practitioner of a single MA style, in seven years. This takes into account, though, the 80-20 rule, and the fact that the learning curve goes asymptotic the closer you get to the max.

The notion of being able to slack off and "enjoy life again" is foreign to me as well. Training should never be your whole life, you have to have balance, but some of the most fun, most satisfying times of my life are and continue to be related to training hard and continuing to push the envelope. I think this helps rather than stunts the other aspects of my life and my relationships with SO's.

I certainly dispute the notion that you can become a the best teacher you can possibly be in even fifty years - the thread is about "giving back", not about "you", after all. The best teachers I've met are ALWAYS trying to find better methods to teach, and to learn, even after 30, 40, 45 years. This is not something that ever stops if you are truly trying to make a difference. And if you are not only trying to teach, but also inspire, that is even more of a challenge.

[Ernie]

Originally posted by anerlich

.And if you are not only trying to teach, but also inspire, that is even more of a challenge.


this is when you give back :D




well said you fellow training junkie

[t_niehoff]

Jeez you sound like the you know it all.

**I'm just someone that forms his opinion based on what he sees, not what he hears. ;)

Can you actually believe this statement you just made? So your saying that because they no longer fight they can't fight anymore, what kind of logic is that? Sugar Ray Lenoard has been out of the ring now for how long, 10yrs? Do you think he would get his ass kicked in the street. I would say 70% chance that he wouldn't. He still has something left I would say.

**Sugar Ray fought -- against world class opposition, sparred literally thousands of hours against skilled fighters, etc. That's what fighters do -- they fight. That's how they become better fighters, whether it's boxing, wrestling, bjj, MMA, whatever. It's not a matter that "they" (the wing chun elite?) no longer fight, but that for the overwhelming part (with very few exceptions) never fought at all, and as such never developed any real skills. And for many that that did have some fights, it was a matter of teenager against teenagers. The skill of the opposition is all important.

Same goes for William Cheung, Leung Ting, my Sifu who is 50, and Yip Chun for example, a man in his 70's he probably would do alright in a fight for a man of his age, compared to a man of similar age, body structure(small) and no MA training, just because of the fact that his body will at least react in one way or the other. In your way of thinking, someone that learns WC but never uses it is just as worse off as someone that doesn't take anything at all, again I do not see the logic here.

**So your idea of skill is being able to beat someone that has no skill? I guess that means that a blue belt in BJJ is a high-level attainment -- he will beat most people that have no ground skills. For me, skill is relative -- we determine it by the level of the opposition we can defeat. This is true for all physical activities. Someone doesn't claim to be good at golf because they can beat someone that has never played! BTW, tell me who -- give me names -- of who these "masters" fought; any skilled fighters? If you don't fight you will never develop better skills or attributes to fight -- it's that simple. Imagine if there were BJJ "masters" that never rolled, "champion" boxers that never got into the ring, etc. But this is standard in WCK.

Why don't I go out and prove it? If I did then I guess my ego would have won. I have nothing to prove, and if one thinks contrary to my belief's then more power to you.

**It's easy to stand on the side of the pool and say "I could swim if I wanted to, but I don't need to prove it." Well, you don't need to prove anything to me. But it's fairly simple, if you want to become a better swimmer, you need to get into the water. If you want to become a really skilled swimmer, you need to get into the water a lot. Personally, I don't want to be someone that stands on the side of the pool and thinks -- i.e., hopes -- I can swim should that situation ever arise: I want to know that I can swim because I've done it, not once or twice but lots. Besides, I enjoy "swimming", that's why I'm involved in MAs in the first place.

Plus I'm more scared of what kind of damage I would have to inflict on the person to prove the point than my need to actually have to prove it.

**Yes, I'm sure you're just a walking hand-grenade, waiting to go off. ;) It always amazes me how folks rely on the old "I could show you but I'd need to kill you" routine. Funny how those WCK folks that did fight -- Wong, Sum, etc. -- were able to fight without "killing" or "maiming" anyone. I guess your skill and power is just at a higher level. ;)

If I did go out to prove WC effectiveness would we have to fight to the death? What outcome would have to happen for this to be proven or disproven? I'm not sure if the consequences are worth the answers you and I are looking for. Also maybe your criteria for testing a arts effectiveness is not sufficient in my or other opinion, then what? Whose "testing" standards do we use?

**WCK is to develop greater fighting skills. How do you determine whether your training is working, how well it is working, etc.? Do you think forms or drills will tell you? Touching hands? None of that is fighting -- it is merely prep work (the beginnning, not the end). And you never "test an arts [sic] effectiveness", you only test yourself and how well your training has prepared you. Good fighters know that they win or lose the fight in the gym (with their training).

Regards,

Terence

[t_niehoff]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by anerlich

.And if you are not only trying to teach, but also inspire, that is even more of a challenge.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ernie wrote:

this is when you give back

**IMO is depends on how they "inspire" you.

Regards,

Terence

[Tom Kagan]

[[[[I humbly disagree skill can be measured 2 people walk into a room only one walks out the other is carried out, crude but true.

Within one context, I tend to agree. But it's still not quite as cut and dry as you suggest. It is possible to get "erroneous readings" when measuring.

What if one has a glass jaw? What if one can't see without their glasses? What if one had the misfortune of wearing the wrong shoes? What if one was recovering from hernia surgery? What if one were Buster Douglas on a really good night and the Champ was having a bad night?

Additionally, both can walk out - or be carried out - too. Who has the better skill, then?

I'd much rather be lucky than good. However, it is next to impossible to train the "lucky charm" attributes. :)

[Ernie]

Within one context, I tend to agree. But it's still not quite as cut and dry as you suggest. It is possible to get "erroneous readings" when measuring.


[[[To me I keep it simple, you can come up with a million far-fetched reasons why you lose or there can be one obvious one, lack of skill

Now being that skill is the last on the list behind conditioning and courage ‘’ heart ‘’

And just because you get dropped doesn’t mean you don’t have skill just got dropped by the better or more conditioned or luckier person that day, man up give him his prop’s and learn from it.

Or let the flood of excuses fly
:D

[PaulH]

Quite true, I just had many incredible bad lucks against you, Ernie! =)

[Ernie]

Quite true, I just had many incredible bad lucks against you, Ernie! =)


ha ha your nuts not bad luck just learning experiences :D

trust me i got plenty of blood stains and humbling experiences at the hands of robert and gary and many more to come if i'm lucky :D

gary has knocked me out on my feet a few times , and not a single bruise to show from it still trying to figure that one out

[PaulH]

For a while I didn't understand why people keep asking me questions while Sifu is around. Now I know their dirty rotten tricks! Ha! Ha! Let them suffer the stings and arrows of their own outrageous questions! =)

[Tom Kagan]

...
And just because you get dropped doesn’t mean you don’t have skill just got dropped by the better or more conditioned or luckier person that day, man up give him his prop’s and learn from it.

Or let the flood of excuses fly
:D

I agree. It is good to read you writing "that day." The "Mad Max 3" simplification you've repeated a few times was, in my opinion, no longer doing it justice. :)

Our dialogue reminds me of a story: Sir Laurence Olivier once gave a stupendous performance in a play he was in but came off stage furious about his performance. When asked why he was not happy with such a great performance, his comment was "because I have absolutely no idea what I did."

Excuses are attempts to give reason why something should be overlooked. Explanations are attempts to give reason why something happened the way it did. Sometimes, a winner can produce quite a few excuses, too. Given human nature, perhaps a winner would need more explanation than a loser at times. ;)