Russian Kettlebells

[Ruah Boxer]

I've been sort of toying with the idea of owning a couple of my own and really taking the time to fully discover what these things can do for me on my own time. But as somebody who has never worked with Kettlebells before, I'm not really sure what the hell I'm doing. I have some questions.

http://www.dragondoor.com/p10.html

Is it a bad idea to purchase Kettlebells online? Could I find Kettlebells as easily as free weights and would it be less expensive? As somebody who has never worked with Kettlebells and has relatively limited experience with strength training, how many would I need to train effectively and at what weight? Is there anyway to gauge what Kettlebell weight you should be starting with?

Thanks.

[Toby]

The problem is, if you're untrained you'll need to start light but you'll quickly progress. So you'd need a whole range of weights. My advice would be to train in a gym for 6-12mths first then get straight into heavier KB's. Otherwise you could get a range of KB's and sell the lighter ones later. It might be tough to find people who know what they are to buy them, though.

Some people will hopefully chime in to help you. Ford Prefect and fa_jing have experience with KB's. I have none. I would imagine there are cheap places to buy them online. Dragondoor probably isn't the cheapest ;).

[IronFist]

Pretty much the only place to get (real) kettlebells is through Dragondoor. See if you can find a place that has them before you buy them. My gym has two 1 poods (16kg) and two 4kg ones. But I think I belong to the only gym in America that has them No one uses them, tho, it's funny.

I mean they're cool. But they're kind of expensive, and they're not the end-all be-all of exercising. You'll get good muscle endurance from the, tho, and good cardio, too. I can see them being beneficial for fighters and boxers.

[Dark Knight]

Check out Scott Sonnons circular training.

http://www.clubbell.tv/

Worth reading about

[Ford Prefect]

I'd get kb's before clubs. I'd get an olympic weight set first though.

[FooFighter]

I agree with Ford. However, if you a gym member of a good gym, then you do not need buy a weight set. And if Kbs fits into your needs and purpose, then get right into it. Dont let money be a hindrance, get it and practice it. Besides I think Russian designed Kbs are a good investment if exercise is part of your life.

In search for cheaper Kbs, I purchased a 20Lb pair made in china and it sux. The design and weight distribution was off and I couldnt help me do some of the exercises found in Pavel's book. I was very disappointed.

By the way, Ford how long have you been working with KB? I believe I've been working with KB since 2001. Back in the day in the late 90's, I remember I received other products line through the mail and thought who is the hell is this skinny Russian dude? I only wish I started sooner with Pavel's system. I was very skeptical at the time and I too was a poor student. Ford, how is your CB training going? I thinking about getting Body Flow video series. Is it a good buy?

[Ford Prefect]

Foo,

I never consistently focussed on KB training and there were long periods where I wouldn't touch a KB at all. I got my first KB when Pavel first came out with them. I remember the appartment I had when I got them and I lived there from Sept '99 - August '01, so it had to be sometime in that time frame. If they were available in the spring of 2000, then I'm pretty sure that's when I got the first ones. They are stamped differently than the ones I got recently. I think it was really the last good thing Pavel came out with.

Body flow is a great series. I'd recommend the book and the tapes. I had Grappler's Toolbox from back when Pavel was on Sonnon's Amerross forum, but the Body Flow book shed light on a large number of concepts that I completely didn't get by just watching the Grappler's Toolbox tapes. I don't buy everything Sonnon is selling in the book, but the book explained the how's and why's of the exercises very succinctly. I still practice it and CB's on my "off days".

Body flow has been a god send for my knees, which are a huge problem area for me, and has been great for my whole lower body, and CB's have been great for my wrists and shoulders.

[FooFighter]

Ford:

Body Flow is pretty pricey... I will trust you. Dang, I was planning to buy another KB. Oh well, I guess I will go get it. Because I do want to learn more about joint injuries prevention. CB has definitely improve my grip strength and increased my forearm size. I have beating my Cb against old rubber bus tires when I am irate. Seriously, swing Cb against something like a tires is a good way to develop torque power.

[IronFist]

What is body flow?

[Ford Prefect]

It's a book/tape set Sonnon put out. If you've seen Grappler's Toolbox, then you've seen nearly all the exercises and drills in the set. The explanation of the benefits of such exercises is much better with this series though as is the explanation on how to progress through the system. I like it because it's great for your joints with a focus on your hips, knees, and ankles. I think it would be of huge benefit to a grappler though especially when combined with Sonnon's other tape Be Breathed.

The drills are hard to explain. They have most in common with calesthenics/bwe except they are still different in nature, execution, and goal. You don't do this "x" for "y" reps. It's almost like form work. Each exercise (Sonnon uses a buzz work biomechanical exercise/BME) has 3 parts. A beginning, middle, and end position and you flow throw them. The end is the same position as the beginning, so you you can keep repeating the exercise over and over. You learn each exercise seperately until you can perform it well without thinking. They are challenging, so it's not easy. It requires a good degree of flexability in directions you normally don't stretch and stanima.

(NOTE: The series is actually Body Flow: Freedom from Fear Reactivity. If you look at chilren they are much more limber and would seem to be able to bend in impossible directions. Sonnon and the western world hold that this decrease in flexability as you age is a result of nervous system programming either through injury or through not utilizing full ROM's of your joints. Sonnon's buzz word for this is "fear reactivity" and these exercises are supposed to help remove this programming to give you more freedom of movement and help you recover ROM's.)

So after you have mastered a good number of exercises you start stringing them together into Sonnon buzz word #3, kinetic chains. A kinetic chain is when you flow flawlessly from one exercise to the next. It can have as little 2 exercises or as many as you want. Like the BME, the kenetic chain ends with the beginning position, so you can keep repeating it over and over. You can even link kenetic chains and BME's that wouldn't seem to fit together because of the starting positions, by maybe cutting one BME off in the middle or adding a movement to the end of another etc.

The final goal is to be able to set a time limit, and just flow off the top your head through various positions. You need a decent sized room to be able to do all these because the exercises aren't done in place. You travel as you do them.

Real hard to explain which is why I guess it took a book with pictures to do so.

[Abstract]

these are bodyweight exercises i assume?

does dude have a website to purchase them? this sounds very interesting

i'm always looking for different things to add to spice up the workouts....:cool:

[Ford Prefect]

Not really abstract. They are quite different in form and function from what you'd expect bodyweight exercises to be like.

Here is his description. I'm hesitant to post it because of all his rediculous marketting. It's a decent series though.

http://www.rmax.tv/bodyflow.html

http://www.rmax.tv/kinetic.html


Here are a few biomechanical exercises (BME's):

Scorpion: http://rmax.tv/images/circularscorpion.ASF
Spiderman: http://rmax.tv/images/spiderman.ASF
Neck Roll: http://rmax.tv/images/neckroll.ASF
Screw Push-up: http://rmax.tv/images/screwpushup.ASF

You try to master each individually and then link them together in seemless chains (kinetic chains). Here are a couple clis of a kenetic chain.

http://www.rmax.tv/images/kc8.AVI

http://www.rmax.tv/images/kc10.AVI

[IronFist]

Ford, thanks for the description. I'll check out those links when I get home today.

[Abstract]

thanks Ford, i might have to check this stuff out, looks interesting


the hype advertising is a biatch to sort through though...:p

[Roger LaPointe]

Russian Kettlebells are one of my most popular items.

Here is a few things to
keep in mind when buying kettlebells.

First, you have to figure out just
what you want to train for. The general guideline is that you start out with a 16 kg then a 24 kg then a 32 kg since these are the traditional sizes. Then you fill in the regular sizes or double up as needed. There are several new sizes that I don't have on the site yet. I like single limb work but the double bell work adds an interesting dimension. For Women, the general guideline is the same except to start out with 12, 16, and 24 kg and work from there although the 8 kg is good too. Pavel has
a new video for women too called From Russia with Tough Love which is pretty
good.

I also recommend Steve Cotter's Kettlebell Course. It was written with martial artists in mind. Here is a recent article by steve which outlines some of his kettlebell training concepts and ideas:

http://www.atomicathletic.com/articles/detail.asp?ArtID=54

If you have any more questions let me know.

Live Strong!
-Roger

roger@atomicathletic.com

[FooFighter]

Abstract,

Remember me, Bao, from Sifu Lee's Yip Man Wing Chun Academy. I have not seen you a long time and hope you are doing well and also your family. I am very glad to see you here and to be honest I am surprised.

I am staying out of the wing chun forum because I have found it cliqueish, politically deceptive, and sophmoric. I ran into my old sifu Parlati of traditional wing chun on the forum and I found that he has somehow convinced many people he is an expert and capable grappler. I guessed people on that forum will believe anything written that sounds right like some people here. Knowing and sounding right is mad different than being able to do what is right and on point and what is wriiten. Enough of my rant.

Happy Fourth of July!

Sincerely,
Bao

[Toby]

Originally posted by FooFighter
I ran into my old sifu Parlati of traditional wing chun on the forum and I found that he has somehow convinced many people he is an expert and capable grappler. I guessed people on that forum will believe anything written that sounds right like some people here. Knowing and sounding right is mad different than being able to do what is right and on point and what is wriiten.You just can't help yourself, can you? Oh, to have your "mo duk" :rolleyes:

[FooFighter]

Toby:

My comments was directed to Abstract. He knows my Si Hing Peter and my sifu and myself. I do not want you to take any cheap shots at me. Because this situation is very personal and real to me. I will not go on and speak bad against Victor because it is not neccessary. Besides there is two sides to every story. If you were from NYC, you will know that wing chun is a very small community and people know each other. Better to make an opinion of someone after you met him or her then instead based it on heresay. I have been to all the main wing chun branches in nyc and pay my respect to the most sifus. It is my opinion that
Sifu Alan Lee is much better instructor than Parlati not because of technical ability alone but he is a gentleman, friendly, honorable, and respectful. It is from my "experience" that Sifu Victor Parlati was not respectful and considerate to me and my experience isnt unique. Since you are not from around here, I dont expect you to believe me or know the the two sides. If you want to judge me properly based it on objective factors and not hearsay. Come to NYC and see for yourself. By the way, Mo Duk isnt part of training course in seminars. Here is my logic: I would not get surgery done by a a seminar educated doctor, likewise I would never never never get trained by anyone who is a seminar trained martial artist. Enough said.

[Abstract]

hey man what's goin on? haven't seen you in ...it's been a year or so now, huh?

the fam is good...i've been so busy i haven't posted here in a LONG while...i post a comment or two on the main forum when i have a spare moment at work....if only i could train with Sifu Lee in queens....:( *sigh*

i was boxing for awhile & even that's been sporadic at best of late:( i've got too much going on ...hope all is well with u..

yo if you talk to Pete tell em i said wattap & that we all have to get together when we can manage some free time, at the same time haha



Toby, i dunno what y'all got into, but Bao isn't the type to run his mouth or make up fanciful BS...just thought i'd mention that

peace fellas:cool:

[Toby]

Foo, I left the Parlati stuff in there. But my main gripe was with this bit.
Originally posted by FooFighter
I guessed people on that forum will believe anything written that sounds right like some people here.Victor Parlati isn't the most diplomatic poster on the board and I'm aware you have some history with him. My point was you just love attacking people for no reason :rolleyes:. It's just unnecessary. You might hate everyone else on here, but if so, why are you here?

[IronFist]

Who is Parlati? Does he post on this board?

[Toby]

Ultimatewingchun, a high-ranking William Cheung student who doesn't pull punches. He stays in the WC forum where he's very active.

[FooFighter]

Abstract:

Glad to see you are doing well and will call Pete to tell him your message. I am a medical student, dude. I have been off from Sifu Lee's almost two year now. However, I have been training by myself and let me tell you it rough brother to away from wing chun. There are plenty of new students there and some are pretty good now. Yum Cha with you and Pete sounds goood. Best wishes, brother.

Toby, I dont love attacking people and I dont hate anyone. That is not my temperament. Perhaps I am very jaded and maybe very doubtful about other people's personal accomplishments and etc because I have caught many so-so experts on these cyber rooms in lies. My sifu taught me to use doubt and dont believe it until you see it and or feel it. I think this wise mind set in practical mattters. For example, one occidental wing chun sifu claimed that he loves working out with weights and etc besides practicing wing chun. I remember meeting this fellow in New Jersey and he was a fat fellow who my sihing Peter demostrated his whipping tan sao which opened up his eyes. And of course my past relationships with my other instructors. Therefore based on my actual experience here on these forum I wrote that many people here will believe anything that sounds right which is true. I have found many people who I trust and respect because they behave like an intelligent gentleman without ego and without trying to prove themselves. This is the spirit of mo duk which my sifu has taught me which I try my best to practice.

[FooFighter]

Abstract:

Glad to see you are doing well and will call Pete to tell him your message. I am a medical student, dude. I have been off from Sifu Lee's almost two year now. However, I have been training by myself and let me tell you it rough brother to away from wing chun. There are plenty of new students there and some are pretty good now. Yum Cha with you and Pete sounds goood. Best wishes, brother.

Toby, I dont love attacking people and I dont hate anyone. That is not my temperament. Perhaps I am very jaded and maybe very doubtful about other people's personal accomplishments and etc because I have caught many so-so experts on these cyber rooms in lies. My sifu taught me to use doubt and dont believe it until you see it and or feel it. I think this is a wise mind set in practical mattters. For example, one occidental wing chun sifu claimed that he loves working out with weights and etc besides practicing wing chun. I remember meeting this fellow in New Jersey and he was a fat fellow who my sihing Peter demostrated his whipping tan sao which opened up his eyes. And of course my past relationships with my other instructors. Therefore based on my actual experience here on these forum I wrote that many people here will believe anything that sounds right which is true. I have found many people who I trust and respect because they behave like an intelligent gentleman without ego and without trying to prove themselves. This is the spirit of mo duk which my sifu has taught me which I try my best to practice.

[Fu-Pow]

Don't believe the hype!

http://ejmas.com/pt/ptart_brennan_0103.htm

[IronFist]

Originally posted by Fu-Pow
Don't believe the hype!

http://ejmas.com/pt/ptart_brennan_0103.htm

Nice article. I'm not saying I agree with him entirely, but it's nice to see the other side presented. Has this been shown to Pavel's board? I bet they'd get all upset if they read that. I should go post it.

[Toby]

Nice article. The primary reason I'd get them is room. They'd also be something you could take on a driving holiday.

Foo, I commend your philosophy. However, I don't think it's necessary to take shots at people, like the bit I quoted. You could've just written:
Originally posted by FooFighter
I guessed people on that forum will believe anything writtenand that would be fine since most of the WC could care less about what you write on this forum. But you took a shot at "some people here" as well. Based on your (our) recent history, I thought that was a poor move.

[FooFighter]

Toby:

Thank you for commending me in my own philosphy. You are right that it was unnecessary to be critical of others and I am not beyond reproach. I will admit my own personal character flaw which you pointed out of "taking shots". However I will not be sorry for being skeptical and less gullible than most here. I hope you can look it from my point of view and try to put yourself in my shoes. With my past bad experiences with liars and dishonest martial artists in these forums and in the real world, can you see why I am a bit cynical? Isnt true that some people blindly listen and believe what sounds good or correct without seeing the source? This can be quite dangerous if not taken with a grain of common sense and table sea salt. Get my point, old bean?

At the time when I posted "braggards", I was fed up with some of statements and claims of a 'few' individuals. I believe in my heart that I didnt lie or made up outrageous claims about others and it was agreed by a few here that were some who fit my off colorful descriptions. Right or wrong, it was my honest expression. I never had any problems with you Toby, you saw what you wanted to see and if you didnt curse at me, then I would have been more open and direct with you as friends.

[Toby]

Originally posted by FooFighter
... you saw what you wanted to see ...I'm not going over this again. But that is crap. See the other thread for why.

[FooFighter]

There is no point of to argue about the past. I am not looking for who is right or wrong, Toby. I have learned seeking to confirm personal correctness and vaidating the other person's flaws is not very effective with dealing with people. I have admited my point of err and with this in mind I dont want to confirm my own personal correctness or show your weakness. Beers and Cheers to the past.

[Toby]

Originally posted by FooFighter
I am not looking for who is right or wrong, Toby ... I dont want to confirm my own personal correctness or show your weakness.You're an *******. You can't help yourself.

[FooFighter]

Originally posted by Toby
You're an *******. You can't help yourself.

Toby, You are truly a scholar and gentleman. The Golden Rule was all I expected even if you and I disagreed on certain things. If I didnt curse at you and can speak to in a civilized manner then I should hope you would to do the same. Once we lose civility, then we lose all lines of communication.

You may think I am fake because of my mannerism but I can tell you it is not bogus and this is the way I was brought up and I will never go your level. Anyone who knows me personally will tell you that I am not an argumentive person nor do I like verbal judo or take cheap pokes at people when they are down and show people respect even though they dont return it.

While many men in my shoes would have attack you and use profanity by now, I will not. Why? Because it is a disgrace to behave like you. It would shame my SiFu and my childhood upbringing and my own self character.

Your A-hole,

[IronFist]

You guys are gonna kiss... :D

[FooFighter]

GayLo behavior is certainly not part of my value system, in my genetic make up, and/or pleasure centers. My parents and my sifu and my close female companions would be disappointed and most likely be ashame of me if I was a gay lo, so there be no kissing by me or Toby. Toby may be crude but he is no gay lo.