Chi Sao theory??

[Hungfutkune]

Hello all!!

I just wanted to post a question to see if anybody out there could help me. I just started training Wing Chun in Shanghai. It's been great so far, my sifu seems very good but the only thing is, that he does not speak english nor do I speak Chinese. We started to do one hand chi sao today (would I be correct in calling it sticky hands in english?).

What is the theory behind doing Chi Sao exercises? and what should I be concentrating on when doing it - physical and mental?

My sifu kept saying "feel force" and "No power". I think I was using to much brute force and strength to block and attack. And at times I felt as if I was playing patty cake!!

Someone please help me!!!!
Thanks

[macaulay]

Chi sao builds contact reflexes. The key is to have a forward intention without using muscular strength to push too hard.

I'm still learning so I don't want to give you any wrong advice. This is the explanation given to me.

I admire your persistence and drive to train beyond the language barrier.

[Yaksha]

Just feel the way it feels and relax. Making sure your partner is really trying to hit you is a great way to find out how good your technique is.

Just feel the way it feels and relax. I will say that if you can redirect their big force and not feel any force yourself, you are doing well.

Thats the point. To learn how to controll your opponet's mind and body with little effort.

[reneritchie]

macaulay - Any relation to David Macaulay in Montreal?

[reneritchie]

HFK- Work on maintain your paths (positions through the motions). Keep them as close to ideal as you can. That will acomplish a lot of it for you. Then you can work simple changes triggers by your partner's resistance.

[Matrix]

Originally posted by Hungfutkune
What is the theory behind doing Chi Sao exercises? and what should I be concentrating on when doing it - physical and mental? It is both physical and mental, you need both. But it is not physical force. You are not trying to dominate the other person with your strength, otherwise the stronger person will always "win". In fact, keep in mind that you are trying to share and learn with your training partner, not "win" at some type of drill. The main thing is to develop sensitivity, which can only be accomplished when relaxed, and as relaxed as you will try to get, the more relaxed you will need to be. That's the hard part - at least it is for me. You want to learn to feel the force that your partner is sending, and feel the imbalance in their structure, not to mention your own. Feel the timing of the movement, and the power of the structure - which is not physical strength.


My sifu kept saying "feel force" and "No power". I think I was using to much brute force and strength to block and attack. That's what it sounds like - too much muscular strength (i.e. force). You are trying to use force, as opposed to the natural power of the structure. Let go of your ego, and be prepared to make some "errors". Oddly enough, it's often the best way to learn. Relax, but still have good energy and forward intent in your structure.

I'm sure that some of the more senior people will now jump and add some real value to the response to your question.

Best of luck in your training,
Bill

[AmanuJRY]

...speaking of language barriers....

Chi sau is like a conversation, only instead of your sense of hearing and speach you are using your sense of touch and physical energy.

With that in mind, try not to dominate the conversation yet be involved in it, and keep the volume to a civilized level.:D :D

[kj]

Originally posted by AmanuJRY

Chi sau is like a conversation, only instead of your sense of hearing and speach you are using your sense of touch and physical energy.

With that in mind, try not to dominate the conversation yet be involved in it, and keep the volume to a civilized level.:D :D

Nice analogy, AmanuJRY.

These conversations, as such, serve to hone critical "listening" skills. In my experience, listening abilities have never improved through an insistence on shouting.

Regards,
- kj

[AmanuJRY]

Nice analogy, AmanuJRY.

Thanx.:)


These conversations, as such, serve to hone critical "listening" skills. In my experience, listening abilities have never improved through an insistence on shouting.

More like, reading skills.:D

In fact listening ABILITY is diminished with too much shouting. And in my experience, when a conversation escalates to the point of shouting...there isn't much listening going on.

...but matters of ettiqute, manners and general civility are being discussed on other threads, so I'll digress.


Hungfatkune,

Have you thought of learning chineese.
I'm sure you must know (or have been exposed to) the basic names of movements.

[Hungfutkune]

THANKS GUYS


I really appreciate all the help. I think this is the reason forums like this are beneficial!! Any more suggestions or theories you have are more than welcomed.

Most of my training in the past has been Hung Gar, but I am finding Wing Chun very interesting.

From what I can tell so far in my Wing Chun training, that alot of it is based on attacking and protecting the Centerline. Would I be correct in saying that?

[AmanuJRY]

Yes

Not all attacks come on the centerline though. WC primarily attacks the centerline (shortest distance and all), but in advanced training hooks and circular attacks are used as well.

[Matrix]

Originally posted by Hungfutkune
From what I can tell so far in my Wing Chun training, that alot of it is based on attacking and protecting the Centerline. Would I be correct in saying that? Yes, you take the centerline. You own it, and then all the possibilities open up for you.

Bill

[Keng Geng]

Originally posted by Hungfutkune
What is the theory behind doing Chi Sao exercises? and what should I be concentrating on when doing it - physical and mental?There are a number of theories behind Chi Sao. Forget about trying to figure out what they are especially from people whom you don't train with, nor have the same sifu as you. You should probably be concentrating on match/mirror your sifu's energy, especially since there is no verbal communication. Simply give him what he's giving you. If he goes soft, match his softness. If hard, match it. He'll probably want you to do the opposite eventually, - but I'm sure he'll find a way of indicating that to you.

[Lindley57]

Hungfutkune,

One thing you mention is not whether you have other kung fu brothers or sisters who can translate for you! If you train alone with the Sifu, you should know that to grow in Chi Sao (and Wing Chun) you should interact with other hands. All the points raised in this post about what Chi Sao is are very valid. Chi Sao is not fighting. Chi Sao uses the three "seeds" of Wing Chun - Bong Sao, Tan Sao, and Fuk Sao as a method. The single arm Chi Sao prepares each arm for the coordination for the two arms rolling. Two Chi Sao practioners can best be compared to two people pointing fire hoses at each other, with high pressure water streaming out. If both are on the center, no one gets wet. As soon as one comes off the center, the other gets wet as the water shoots forward. Water does not go backwards. "Be like water, my friend."

Chi Sao is an exercise to analyze and discuss the important aspects of martial attributes, principles, and techniques. As mentioned, different camps train different ways, but Wing Chun is very unique in that we "touch" our partners from the very beginning of our training, getting information from our partners. It is this information that we study to know our partners intentions and how to instinctively and intelligently react to them. We like to call Chi Sao "the bridge between real fighting and the forms". One can play Chi Sao for hours and days upon end to know exactly what to do when engaged briefly with an opponent. Also, with a good and cooperative training partner, you can slow down movements to understand them and to ask questions back and forth.

You are in a unique situation that would almost compare to learning Kung Fu being blind or deaf. Your language barrier should serve to strengthen your own need and willingness to pay closer attention to what you see. On the other hand, this also prevents you from being biased by the Sifu's beliefs or opinions. He just shows. The goal of training is to express yourself and dig deep inside to arrive at your own conclusions, not to imitate your Sifu.

Good luck in your Kung Fu!

[45degree fist]

[i]
from what I can tell so far in my Wing Chun training, that alot of it is based on attacking and protecting the Centerline. Would I be correct in saying that? [/B]


you are correct right now in dan chi sau focus on covering your centerline while sticking. forget about all this talk about energy and sensitivity at this point, your still at a si nim tau level you are just learning your own body lines. energy and sensitivity will develop as you progress through your system.


PS. good partnering is a key factor let them know what you are working on at that particular time.

[YongChun]

What we train at first in chi sau are these things: first to have a calm, settled non aggressive mind. Second to have a rooted stance where you would feel quite solid and stable to your partner. Third to have very relaxed supple sensitive arms that really feel sticky. Fourth to keep very good centered positions such that the center is not open and not crossed. If the stance, relaxation and center is pretty good then your teacher should feel pretty happy with you and then it will be possible to easily teach you technique and counter technique so that while you do these things you maintain your vertical stability, your relaxation, your stickiness and your good position. This part will fit in with practicing the first slow part Siu Lim Tao form where you also train the calm settled mind, the strong stable stance, the centered positions and the relaxed arms. We use abdominal breathing to help with the relaxation and health benefits too. In a nutshell if this training is good then you will have a good feel. Someone touching you will feel that you have some good quality about you already even if you don't know any fighting actions.

I once crossed hands with a very good Tai Chi student. I felt he was very rooted to the ground, felt solid as a mountain. He was very relaxed on top yet not limp. He was always with me neither pressuring me, not being limp nor disengaging. He was very confident. Although we never exchanged any fighting techniques, I judged that his fighting fundamentals were very good. This guy was a student of a Henry Wang who was a top Taiwanese pushing hands competitor and is now a master teacher of Yang style Tai Chi. Whether I could beat this guy with Wing Chun or not was not important to me but I felt he had something that was very good and something that you could not acquire in a short period of time.

So if you practice in a calm relaxed feeling kind of way little needs to be said to get the benefit from Chi sau with someone good. Just try to feel what is going on.