What the Old Master know? [Archive] - Kung Fu Magazine Forums

Ernie

07-07-2004, 04:37 PM

Originally posted by PaulH
What do you think that a skillful WC master know that you don't?
Let the discussion begin!

Regards,
PH

if he is a old traditional , good chance he knows less then i or any more modern person , we have seen and been exposed to many more things each year the world gets smaller
and people gain more information

he should know more about his particular approach against the people he might have had conflict with in his town in province

but over all combat training and adapting to the new era of cross trained , fit and more balistic fighter out now a days ,
i doubt he would have all that much to offer

Yaksha

07-07-2004, 04:51 PM

In response to this question, I ask another question that will be easier to answer:

What do you know that other people don't that gives you an advantage in a fight?

Sam

07-07-2004, 04:55 PM

A student's sure of how much he knows. A master works on what he doesn't.

KenWingJitsu

07-07-2004, 04:56 PM

if he is a old traditional , good chance he knows less then i or any more modern person ,

Perfect answer, perfect post.

Vajramusti

07-07-2004, 05:18 PM

Differ from KWJ and Ernie's POVs- but that's the way it goes.
We just rearrange deck chairs on these issues.

Same old same old-

If the issue is WCK-- some old timers know quite a bit more than most folks.

If the issue is an actual fight- outcome varies with time, place, location and participants and circumstances. WCK is not the only way and the individual makes a big difference as well..

Ernie

07-07-2004, 05:22 PM

Differ from KWJ and Ernie's POVs- but that's the way it goes.
We just rearrange deck chairs on these issues.

ha ha joy i knew you would , wouldn't have it any other way:)

Matrix

07-07-2004, 07:27 PM

Originally posted by Ernie
if he is a old traditional , good chance he knows less then i or any more modern person , we have seen and been exposed to many more things each year the world gets smaller
and people gain more information Ernie,
Information is not knowledge. We are flooded with information on a daily basis, and yet our real knowledge has not progressed as much as we might like to believe. Much like modern fast food, a lot information often lacks any real nutritional content for the mind. The best way to deal with the common cold may still be grandma's chicken soup. ;)

Bill

Wingman

07-07-2004, 07:56 PM

Originally posted by PaulH
What do you think that a skillful WC master know that you don't?

An old master was asked this same question. His answer is, "If you only know what I do not know; then you would know that what I know is nothing compared to what I do not know."

blooming lotus

07-07-2004, 08:04 PM

Originally posted by PaulH
What do you think that a skillful WC master know that you don't?
Let the discussion begin!

Regards,
PH

there's a paradoxical question if I ever heard one..............

if we knew what they knew that we didn't, wouldn't that mean we knew and would there-fore also be masters............

for more information, please.stay tuned to your local master ;)

AmanuJRY

07-07-2004, 08:12 PM

What do you think that a skillful WC master know that you don't?

If I knew, then I would be the master!:D

yylee

07-07-2004, 08:24 PM

Originally posted by Matrix
Information is not knowledge

Good comment Matrix. Funny I first heard of this statement "information is not knowledge" from an old Chinese WC master (he should be 80 by now) some 10 years ago. He said "a lot of WC people know what WC is about, but they can't demonstrate it or use it".

Ernie

07-07-2004, 11:36 PM

Originally posted by Matrix
Ernie,
Information is not knowledge. We are flooded with information on a daily basis, and yet our real knowledge has not progressed as much as we might like to believe. Much like modern fast food, a lot information often lacks any real nutritional content for the mind. The best way to deal with the common cold may still be grandma's chicken soup. ;)

Bill

nah i take cold eze with zync and i'm vegiterien wouldn't touch chicken with a 10 foot pole :D

practical knowledge and hand me down stories of what some one did yet know one can prove or recreate is different as well

i don't believe in kung fu movies , nor in fables , nor do i chase shadows and ghost

deal with today today let yesterday lie dead were it belongs
every athletic event has improved with time
yet some how martial arts is better in the days of old hmmm
especially chinese martial arts filled with so many layers of crap , but i guess people love to live in the past :cool:

chisauking

07-08-2004, 04:43 AM

Ah, good old western – or is it American? – mentality. I know everything and more than you. I’m the BEST. All the knowledge that I’ve acquired was from myself. Blah, blah, blah. I’m so arrogant and obnoxious to think that only I have discovered what no other wing chun master have discovered in their lifetime of wing chun journey.

If you only live for today and history is irrelevant to you, how do you learn from the geniuses before, and, more importantly, from your mistakes? Also, since wing chun is a fighting style that dates back more than 400-years, why are you learning something from the PAST? More stupidly, why are you learning Chinese crap?

Michael Yan Choi 10th generation know nothing fighter, I know it all just do it practitioner

Matrix

07-08-2004, 06:37 AM

Originally posted by Ernie
so many layers of crap , but i guess people love to live in the past :cool: Ernie,
No one is, at least I'm not, saying that you should live in the past. That's a waste of time. Yesterday is a cancelled cheque, tomorrow is an IOU. You can only live in the present. However, like all things we need to have some sort of balance. What we have today is built upon the ideas and accomplishments of the past, and we need to make some plans for the future or our results may not be satisfactory.

We see a lot of dialogue about the past, and I have little or no interest in that. A lot of it sounds like myths and legends that are used to justify a certain political agenda. I personally thank all of the masters of the past for their contribution to the art, because without it we would not have the Wing Chun we have today. Please don't confuse respect with hero worship, they are very different animals. They were just ordinary men with a dedication and passion for the art, and I respect their contribution.

Kung fu movies are for entertainment purposes only, just like fables and ghost stories. They are the product of an active human imagination. I'd say "eat the chicken, and spit out the bones", but you're a vegetarian. ;)

Bill

Ernie

07-08-2004, 07:21 AM

so many layers of crap , but i guess people love to live in the past

he he he i knew i would get a rise out of someone if i said that , sometimes i just get that dr evil thing going on:D

chi sau king get over your self good lord , lighten up
if some thing works i use it ,i don't care were it comes from i care on how well ''i'' can use it in my training . i don't need to know who invented the gun , to kill some one with it

i don't believe in masters so the premiss of this whole thread is flawed to me , i just see regular people that developed skill with proper training methods , no snakes cranes , flying pig and barking chicken styles developed by watching a tick hump a dog
[ that's what i mean by crap , not what you might have thought ]
so climb back on your high chair and be the 10th generation little emperor monkey king of master worship all you want what ever makes you happy

i would much rather take a taxi the walk ie evolve

matrix
no worries man i just felt like fluffing insecure feathers out of complete boredom :D

blooming lotus

07-08-2004, 07:48 AM

all styles began with some mimetic origin......be it plant or animal or whatever.........studied and developed over varied time-frames

but now thx to great red, blue and white.........you can have yours mcdojo style.

you do practice gongfu right???

Tom Kagan

07-08-2004, 07:54 AM

Originally posted by PaulH
What do you think that a skillful WC master know that you don't?
Let the discussion begin!

Regards,
PH

A skillful master knows not to bother posting a reply to this thread. :D :D :D

:rolleyes: (Update 9 July: To the people who contacted me privately and to anyone else wondering, yes, I did understand the irony of me posting this beforehand. Sheesh! -- TK)

blooming lotus

07-08-2004, 07:56 AM

I guess that rules out the lot of us then :cool:

Ernie

07-08-2004, 08:13 AM

All styles began with some mimetic origin...be it plant or animal or whatever.........

---- Which is already ridicules, man is man, a plant is a plant and a bug is a bug, I have never known of it being other wise ‘’ may be in some fable somewhere ha ha ‘’
Man is a higher conscience and the human body is the tool, not much to be learned from a goat eh? Different body mechanics ----

But now thx to great red, blue and white.........you can have yours mcdojo style.

------ Every style is mc dojo until you make it your own and can apply it in a live environment, all forms and dry land swimming until then ---

You do practice gongfu right???

----- I have ‘’ trained’’ in boxing, savate, Thai, FMA, wing chun when I ‘’practice’’ I ‘’practice’’ combative application. I don’t blindly follow doctrines and forms, stories and fables, masters and grand masters. Everything must prove itself to me.
I’m the kid that sticks his hand in the fire even though some one told me not because it will burn me go figure =)

I sure as hell don’t run around in a some hooky kung fu uniform and slippers, not only would it be hilarious I would get shot or beat down, I might have to shot myself
:D :D

blooming lotus

07-08-2004, 08:20 AM

feather ruffling fishing for a bite ha??

lol..........

goodnight :D

Matrix

07-08-2004, 08:32 AM

Originally posted by blooming lotus
all styles began with some mimetic origin......be it plant or animal or whatever......... All Styles??? And just a word of advice,.......... don't quote Walker Texas Ranger. ;)

Bill

Ernie

07-08-2004, 08:41 AM

Originally posted by blooming lotus
feather ruffling fishing for a bite ha??

lol..........

goodnight :D

ha ha you figured me out , good night lotus :D
may you have dreams of snakes , cranes , burning temples , and yoda the great master , becomeing a closed door student of the force ha ha ha ha ha .....
peace

Matrix

07-08-2004, 09:01 AM

Originally posted by Ernie
i don't believe in masters so the premiss of this whole thread is flawed to me , i just see regular people that developed skill with proper training methods , ....... I think we're getting hung up on the term "master". Do you agree that there have been individuals in the past who have achieved an extraordinary level of skill in the martial arts, who have been responsible for advancing the art and passing it on to the generations that followed? There are probably individuals of that calibre today. To me, that is someone who has achieved a level of mastery. Someone deserving of respect, but not someone to kowtow to.........not some demigod with superpowers. An artist of consummate skill who is highly proficient, not unlike the "old masters" in the world of fine art.

Back to the feather ruffling...... :)

Bill

Ernie

07-08-2004, 09:24 AM

I think we're getting hung up on the term "master".

--- Definitely I hear that word and I cringe, I picture some starry eyed idiot running after some one ‘’ master master please let me lick the bottom of your shoe ‘‘ or like that snake dude James earl Jones played in Conan when he told Conan power is not in the steel but in the flesh and he motion to one of his disciples to jump and they did with a smile to there death, it’s Jim Jones all over again. Or in reality master needs some lucky money shhhiitt master wants a kick in the balls -----

Do you agree that there have been individuals in the past who have achieved an extraordinary level of skill in the martial arts,

---- I agree that it is possible but with out proof the level of their actual skill is subjective --------
Who have been responsible for advancing the art and passing it on to the generations that followed?

----- Information has progressed through time so there had to be people that moved it along, again level of skill is subjective who were they fighting, how good was there opponents skill all subjective, --------

There are probably individuals of that caliber today.

----- I believe much better, the potential to surpass the previous generation is improved with each new generation, every other human endeavor has improved, though scientific break through, knowledge of the human body and mind, and shared information yet some how martial arts is not effected, were is the logic in that

To me, that is someone who has achieved a level of mastery

---- Mastery in respect to what and how is it proven / measured?

---- Sure there have special individuals through out time, people with heightened attributes or gifted minds, but though these people might be entertaining and inspirational they stand out because of there difference thus we cannot chase there image unless we are as gifted, so I prefer to keep things grounded in reality, training methods, testing and honesty of strengths and weaknesses just plain old human equation

No ruffled feathers here, I just don’t believe in pedestals

AmanuJRY

07-08-2004, 09:34 AM

mas·ter [ mástər ]; noun

1. boss: a man in a position of authority, for example, over a business, servants, or an animal

2. somebody highly skilled: somebody who has great skill in a particular area

3. somebody in control: somebody or something controlling or influencing events or other things ( sometimes considered offensive )

4. abstract control: an abstract idea or force that is thought of as having control or influence ( sometimes considered offensive )

5. industry skilled worker: somebody who is highly skilled in a trade or craft and is qualified to teach apprentices ( usually used in combination )

6. original copy: an original copy of something such as a recording tape or a stencil, from which other copies can be made

7. game player at high level: somebody who has reached a level of excellence in some games, especially chess or bridge, reckoned by number of games or points won in major tournaments.

8. leader: somebody whose philosophy or religious belief has attracted followers ( sometimes considered offensive )

9. nautical ship’s officer: the captain of a merchant ship.

10. law specialist assisting judge: a specialist, sometimes a retired judge, who assists a court by making a report to the judge presiding over a case, often a highly complex case

11. victor: somebody who defeats another ( literary )

12. comput mechanical engineering controlling machine: a device or computer that controls the operation of one or more other connected devices or computers ( sometimes considered offensive )

adjective

1. main: devised to operate on the broadest level

2. controlling: controlling the operation of everything or of all others

3. principal: biggest or primary among several

transitive verb

1. learn something: to become highly skilled in something, or acquire a complete understanding of it

2. control something: to learn to control feelings or behavior ( sometimes considered offensive )

3. control somebody: to break the will of a person or animal ( sometimes considered offensive )

4. recording make master recording: to produce a master recording

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

i don't believe in masters so the premiss of this whole thread is flawed to me , i just see regular people that developed skill with proper training methods

Doesn't developed skill fall under definition 2???

As we can see there are many definitions of the term master in the english language, and I think on this forum we are all using different ones.

Although, unlike Ernie, I believe in masters (see def. #2, 5 or even 7), I don't believe they deserve any hero worship or special treatment. There is always some knowledge to be gained from anyone with more than you, wheather they are "technically" a master or not.

PaulH

07-08-2004, 09:45 AM

Maybe it is true that we don't know what we have got until we lose it, but it is also true that we don't know what we have been missing until it arrives.

--Unknown

I believe that legends and myths are largely made of 'truth', and indeed present aspects of it that can only be perceived in this mode.

--J.R.R. Tolkien, "The Letters of J. R. R Tolkien"

Imagination is the eye of the soul.

--Joseph Joubert

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi All,

Thank you for your interesting replies so far! The thread is deliberately vague to provoke different sort of responses from a a wide spectrum of denizens here. I like to encourage more of the silent ones hiding somewhere in their cozy forum den to come out and to share little sniplets of their mind. =)

Science has explained nothing; the more we know the more fantastic the world becomes and the profounder the surrounding darkness.

--Aldous Huxley

Regards,
PH

Ernie

07-08-2004, 09:49 AM

d amn justin
broke the dictionary out on my ass ha ha ha ha

----- 2. somebody highly skilled: somebody who has great skill in a particular area

what is the definition of skill and how would you measure it

------1. boss: a man in a position of authority, for example, over a business, servants, or an animal
------ 3. somebody in control: somebody or something controlling or influencing events or other things ( sometimes considered offensive
------4. abstract control: an abstract idea or force that is thought of as having control or influence ( sometimes considered offensive )

i'll take your 2,5,7 and cancel it with my 1,3,4

pointing out extra brownie points for which one is listed as number 1 :D

now add in human ego and money and which definition becomes more dominate

i will not deny there are highly skilled people infact i have spent time with quite a few and hope to meet even more and one day become one

but is not our ultimate goal self mastery ,

this is getting fun now :D

AmanuJRY

07-08-2004, 10:08 AM

Originally posted by Ernie
what is the definition of skill and how would you measure it

Touche`:D

Skill, to me, would be something I recognize as tecnical ability in a particular field. To a worker, it would be his ability to perform his duties accuratly and efficiently, for a martialist, the ability to kick a**. As far as measuring it??? Fights won, maybe or how efficiently those fights were won.

Originally posted by Ernie
i'll take your 2,5,7 and cancel it with my 1,3,4

pointing out extra brownie points for which one is listed as number 1 :D

now add in human ego and money and which definition becomes more dominate

Yes. This is the point where most people get lost in hero worship and delusion. No one is my master in those definitions unless I allow it (think-They Might Be Giants song "you're not the boss of me"), and the only one I've allowed latley is my wife.:D

Originally posted by Ernie
but is not our ultimate goal self mastery

Yes, but how do you get there if you don't belive in masters???:D

Self mastery is, or should be, our goal, but it can't be achieved by worshiping those who have achieved it. It can however, by learning from those who have.

It's all semantics, and some don't understand that.

Matrix

07-08-2004, 10:46 AM

Originally posted by Ernie
Definitely I hear that word and I cringe, I picture some starry eyed idiot running after some one ‘’ master master please let me lick the bottom of your shoe ‘‘ or... That's what I figured. I'm looking at it from a slightly different point of view. I see mastery as self-mastery of a specific skill, not something to be pushed down on others as some sort of exalted being.

---- I agree that it is possible but with out proof the level of their actual skill is subjective --------
Who have been responsible for advancing the art and passing it on to the generations that followed? Like I said before, I'm not looking to name names, because then we will descend into the lineage rat-hole. Suffice it to say that the art we have today was developed by those who proceeded us. They must have reached some high level of skill to bring it to this point, IMO. As for it being subjective, I don't agree. I think you could tell based on a set of criteria who is skilled and who is not, or ..........are we all more or less equal? Are stuck with some sort of relativism where there are no standards of comparsion? We're not selecting a bottle of wine here, where it depends on your personal taste.....although that sounds like a good idea. :)

---- I believe much better, the potential to surpass the previous generation is improved with each new generation, every other human endeavor has improved, though scientific break through, knowledge of the human body and mind, and shared information yet some how martial arts is not effected, were is the logic in that Sure. I agree with that. I'm just saying that the new improvements are based on what was done by those who passed this way before us. I respect that, and I'm thankful for it.

---- Mastery in respect to what and how is it proven / measured........ so I prefer to keep things grounded in reality, training methods, testing and honesty of strengths and weaknesses just plain old human equation It sounds to me like you're on the road to mastery. I think real "masters" are grounded in reality. They know their own strengths and weaknesses and work within that framework. In terms of defining mastery, I would say that in each art, there is a defined series of skills that must be learned to a high level of proficiency. Now, I'm not talking about perfection, or if so, only within the context of the human experience where true perfection is impossible. I'm talking about highly advanced knowledge and skill, much like soldiers are promoted through the ranks of the military to become Generals. Who decides that?... Based on what? People are promoted through the system that they belong to and that group determines, based on their own critieria, who attains the level of master. Like I said before, a "master' is not a demigod, and all "masters" may not be created equal.

I guess I just don't have the same objections to the term that you do. That's fine. However, any term you chose can be corrupted by those who are bent on doing so.

Bill

Ernie

07-08-2004, 11:11 AM

hey i would like to thank justin and bill

you guys are great to have a debate with .

i do hear what both of you are saying , i just tend to follow the path of a coach/teacher/friend

were we are all equal just sometimes some one gets something ahead of the other and helps the other catch up

this is how i have allways trained , so i could never understand looking up to some one only looked ahead down the road were i am heading

but if you are lucky some one has walked before you and put up sign post and some else might offer you a road map

and i am thankful of those willing to share

but in the end i still have to walk every single step myself ;)

AmanuJRY

07-08-2004, 11:37 AM

"but in the end i still have to walk every single step myself"-Ernie

These are the truest words of wisdom.

Matrix

07-08-2004, 12:38 PM

Originally posted by Ernie
i am thankful of those willing to share Ernie,

That's one of the best parts of the journey. I hope our paths cross some time in the future.

Bill

blooming lotus

07-08-2004, 04:38 PM

Originally posted by Matrix
All Styles??? And just a word of advice,.......... don't quote Walker Texas Ranger. ;)

Bill

someone else said those very words prior ????..never heard of the guy.....sorry

ON PEDESTALS: agree, don't believe in them either. But I do believe that greater skill deserves a measure of both acknowledgement and respect.

PaulH

07-08-2004, 06:06 PM

When childhood dies, its corpses are called adults.

--Brian Aldiss

I miss Old Hendrik! You know that he would love to tackle this question in full. I hope that our sense of wonder especially with regard to our KF did not get this jaded as time goes by...

blooming lotus

07-08-2004, 06:18 PM

nice words PH...........

there is quote from Matt furey that I can't quite remember but has the Imho of

" given the right information and the opportunity to use it, what says you are not master in this sense yourself"

Wingman

07-08-2004, 06:22 PM

Originally posted by PaulH
What do you think that a skillful WC master know that you don't?

The old master knows that he has still so much to learn. He knows that his knowledge in WC is but a drop compared to the ocean of knowledge which has been accumulated through the centuries. That's why he constantly refines his techniques. He is always looking for new applications to his existing techniques. He knows that WC is a learning process that could take a lifetime. He is always willing to learn something new. That's why he is open to new ideas.

The naive student on the other hand thinks that he can put all the water in the ocean in his little bucket. He thinks that by learning all the drills, forms, & techniques; his WC will be complete. Instead of refining his skills, he tries to memorize as many techniques, drill, & forms as he can. He thinks that the more techniques in his arsenal, the better is his WC.

Miles Teg

07-08-2004, 09:42 PM

I also dont like the term "master" too much.

All this talk of masters reminds me of the movie "The Last Dragon". Its about a guy who learns Kung Fu in New York and then his teacher tells him that he has no more to teach him. He tells the student to go seek a new master. But the whole theme of the movie was that the teacher meant for him to realize that HE is now the "master".

I guess the term master to me implies that you've reached the pinnacle of skill and theres nothing more to learn.

AmanuJRY

07-08-2004, 09:48 PM

"Who's the baddest, low-down mo-fo 'round this town?"

I love that movie, it's cheesy, in an '80s way (if you know what I mean), but you're right in that it's theme is that personal development and self confidence are key to self mastery.

Miles Teg

07-08-2004, 09:56 PM

I didnt want to admit it, but now that youve come forward, Ill also admit that I liked it.

"I am the master!"

AmanuJRY

07-08-2004, 10:01 PM

Originally posted by Miles Teg
I didnt want to admit it, but now that youve come forward, Ill also admit that I liked it.

"I am the master!"

Ha! Tricked you.....it was a stupid movie.

Just kidding:D

I also liked how Bustah Rhymes used the Sho' Nuff act in his video for 'Dangerous' (??? I think).

anerlich

07-08-2004, 11:03 PM

No one is my master in those definitions unless I allow it (think-They Might Be Giants song "you're not the boss of me"), and the only one I've allowed latley is my wife.

You "allowed" your wife to be your "master"?

Come on! Tell the truth! Like the rest of us married guys, you had no say in the matter.

yylee

07-08-2004, 11:37 PM

Originally posted by Miles Teg
I also dont like the term "master" too much.
...
I guess the term master to me implies that you've reached the pinnacle of skill and theres nothing more to learn.

In real life, it is more like once you've mastered one aspect of WC, you suddenly see more higher and greater things that need to be mastered. There seem to be no end to it.... makes one humble. To me a master just means someone who could see things from a higher plateau, doesn't necessarily mean his/her plateau or mountain is the highest.

Just love this one :)

The Poetry of D. H. Rumsfield

The Unknown
As we know,
There are known knowns.
There are things we know we know.
We also know
There are known unknowns.
That is to say
We know there are some things
We do not know.
But there are also unknown unknowns,
The ones we don't know
We don't know.

PaulH

07-09-2004, 01:19 AM

One thing leads to another. And as the late midnight hour has struck and long gone, like the ancient mariner of old I feel compelled to labour my belief that the old WC masters must have known how to develop human intuition to a very high level as their best kept secret weapon back then. I got inspired from reading these little gems of I. Smears, an old British translator of the Tao-Teh-King. Just thought that you may find them ringing some bells:

"The Scientific Mind necessarily exists in a world of externalities. It probes into, dissects, and analyses the objects seen, in order that it may discover how they have become built up; what holds the parts together; and how living things rebuild themselves.
But the Intuitive Subjective Mind sees everything in the objective world as a part of itself or perceives itself in them; therefore through 'fourth-dimensional' knowledge it becomes intuitively of the natural processes that are taking place within things... When 'forth-dimensional knowledge is mentioned, this is associated with intuition and the subjective mind. Thereby created beings perceive the Oneness underlying all the works of creation: and thereby they perceive the right relationship of any and every part in the complex Whole."

"The ideograph of 'point of contact' is composed of 'a nerve' and 'progress by degrees,' and conveys the idea of 'being in touch with' or of 'being touched by.'
A sensory nerve may be thought of as having two endings; one 'ending' is associated with one of the senses, in contact with externalities; the other is associated with the corresponding inward awareness of messages conveyed from the sense-organ to the conscious entity who inhabits the body...The instant that a nerve ending is touched in the physical body, the whole self is aware of the fact ... If we know something of the structure and of the internal activities of the human body, we may realize the inseparable relationship of the nervous system with Intelligence; of Intelligence with Consciousness; of Consciousness with the Subject Mind; and of that Mind with God..."

Matrix

07-09-2004, 06:21 AM

Originally posted by blooming lotus
someone else said those very words prior ????..never heard of the guy.....sorry He is the karate guy in Bruce Lee's movie "The Game of Death". I believe that he was a mutiple time winner of some professional karate championship in the 1960's. More recently he's been seen on this very cheesey TV show....Walker Texas Ranger. No need to be sorry.

ON PEDESTALS: agree, don't believe in them either. But I do believe that greater skill deserves a measure of both acknowledgement and respect. Agreed on all counts. I would just add that it's skill plus attitude. If someone is very skilled, yet arrogant, then maybe they do not deserve respect. Pedestals are for vases. ;)

Bill