weight lifting vs pure bw

[blooming lotus]

opened an interesting email from mattfury.com today and came across a very interesting point..............

For those folks here lifting as part of a typical regime or means to acquiring "functional strength" ( prettiness as an off-shoot) for best results, would anyone like to give an opinion on why seals and berets lift no weights at all and are, by virtue of nature of position, in supreme physical shape???


In fact, matt himself is an ex world class title holder and claims that his game only improved after the change -over to bwed exercises in lieu. He also gives several other quite convincing examples of where it's worked for others. It is possible that the switch up had little to do with it, and it was in fact a physcological state that developed at the same time, and whether one is subjective to the other or the most responsible for the resulting aheivements is always going to be a subjective argument. Does that make sense? Can anyone provide examples of a reverse trade of regime delivering the same ??......I'm sure someone'll have something but I'd would like to compare notes on this one.

I know alot of people here are die - hard fans of their routines and if we can remain proffessional in this discussion, I think it would be a good time to hash it out ;)

cheers

[FooFighter]

BL:

I am not a grammar and spelling nazi, but please try to write clearly and correctly so people can understand what you are writing. I am having a great problem reading all your posts and it is not funny. If you care about communicating your ideas to others then please try to write better. Since you wrote you were a native english speaker, then there should be no problem unless you are lazy and inconsiderate. My suggestion was not meant to be hurtful or to be funny. I am being practical and care what you have to communicate and if you dont care to write properly, then should I care to listen?

I personally believe everyone should master body weight exercises because it is more functional, especially single arm push ups and single leg squats. Body weight training has it benefits and I can see the benefits however it isnt the holy grail which Matt Furey claims. The problem with Matt Furey and others is their are ignorant of the science Periodization and seeing all proper exercise methodology has its place and no one method is the magic bullet. If people knew how to cycle their training in the long run I hope, they would increase their performance in the long run. I have seen that Furey like many body builders are very ignorant on such matters.

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by FooFighter
BL:

please try to write clearly and correctly
please try to write better

If you dont care to care to write properly, then I dont care to listen... sounds fair?

I personally everyone should master body weight exercises.........




<to be continue>

lol @ your cuteness...........there was also another mistake in your post but I think it was spelling.............

If you re-read my post, my grammar is perfect and loh and behold, so is my spelling..................even if abbreviated and conversational..........

I'm a forgiving gal though and becuse everyone here does it on occassion, and on this thread we're making a point of NOT getting into trite discussions and irrelevant personal attacks, I'll just forget I saw it :eek: ;) :D

do continue your argument though..............bear in mind though, Matt isn't by any means the only one advocating this training as a one stop training shop. Please continue

[CaptinPickAxe]

proffessional

C'mon, Teach. Professional only has one 'f', but you get an 'A' for effort.;)

[blooming lotus]

damm that word......I do it all the time..............lol.some habits just die hard ha ;)

[Ford Prefect]

Matt Furey is a snake oil salesmen and a conn artist. He'd sell his mother to make a buck.

[FooFighter]

Ford:

I second that point! I've written this before and I write it again. Matt Furey's products are inferior and I was a very unhappy customer after buying his flexibility tapes and his combat fitness book. I will never buy anything from him again and most of his stuff is misinformation.

[MasterKiller]

Hershell Walker claims he only used (still uses) body weight training, and he was a monster in college, the USFL, and the NFL. He claims he's never touched weights.

His routine consisted of something like 10,000 situps every day, and 1,000 push-ups (I'm speaking from memory, here, so I could have the numbers off). He is a big fan of dynamic tension exercises as well.

He out-ran Darrell Green one year at the NFL Superstars Challenge, and Darrell Green was the fastest man in the NFL for many, many years.

[FooFighter]

To be honest, isolated cases of individuals does not make me believe in anything in particular. For example, logically there are "unknown factors" which I dont know which may contribute to Mr. Walker's personal performance. Moreoever, to use him as example or absolute proof for strict body weight exercises and the inferiority of weight lifting is not reasonable, not a strong argument, and of course not very scientifically sound.

[blooming lotus]

when you're talking about many individuals the argument becomes a case study. Matt furey may be slick, but we are not so much talking about him so much more than in the capacity of a signular of many examples. I generally don't have as much time as I did today, but I'll try to find links to some more examples.

This theory has made sense to me for quite some time, and is how I have trained for several yrs, hence the thread, with guys like Ford, Iron, Toby, possible RTB, etc being so fanatical or dedicated their system, it should be easy to come up with a good discussion .

Has anyone got any links of examples where an a-grade world class title holder has used bw exercises, changed their programme to predominately weights and seen better performance to the extent where they say ( or the math proves)that was what the key factor of the their acheivement was??
As in a reverse of what I gave you.???

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by FooFighter
To be honest, isolated cases of individuals does not make me believe in anything in particular. For example, logically there are "unknown factors" which I dont know which may contribute to Mr. Walker's personal performance. Moreoever, to use him as example or absolute proof for strict body weight exercises and the inferiority of weight lifting is not reasonable, not a strong argument, and of course not very scientifically sound. I just threw that info out there. I don't believe I made any claims for or against it's usefullness or superiority to weight training.

By most accounts, Walker is a genetic freak.

[Ford Prefect]

Ok, BL. I'm not fanatical about any system. I use a well-rounded approach the uses bwe's, olympic weightlifting, power lifting, bodybuilding, sprints, Long distance running, agility drills (cones/ladder), kettlebells, clubbells.

If you do only BWE's, you will be missing a lot. If you do only KB's, you will be missing a lot. If you do only, olympic lifting, you will be missing alot. Etc etc. There is no ONE approach that will cover everything or even most things.

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by Ford Prefect
Ok, BL. I'm not fanatical about any system. I use a well-rounded approach the uses bwe's, olympic weightlifting, power lifting, bodybuilding, sprints, Long distance running, agility drills (cones/ladder), kettlebells, clubbells.

If you do only BWE's, you will be missing a lot. If you do only KB's, you will be missing a lot.


for example???


If you do only, olympic lifting, you will be missing alot. Etc etc. There is no ONE approach that will cover everything or even most things.

Agree.but only for that fact that each individual class athlete has a very real goal for permormance objective, totally unique to themselves, when we get down to nitty gritty and of course these require different methods. There is ample evidence out there to support my arguement and given time hopefully over the course of this thread I'll find some things to share. I trust you'll do the same.

[Merryprankster]

Whooo-hooo!

I love the misinformation train:

"weight lifting makes you slow!"

"weight lifting makes you muscle bound!"

"Horse stance makes you stronger!"

"BWE are better than weights for making you lift more weight!"

ROFL!!!

I LOVE this place!

[blooming lotus]

thought you'd show up :P

So, you'll be posting some links for us then??

[rubthebuddha]

with guys like Ford, Iron, Toby, possible RTB, etc being so fanatical or dedicated their system only system i'm fanatical for is scientific fact.

science gives us the idea of SAID. according to this, one's body adapts to the demands under which it is placed. wonder why marathoners don't have enormous quads? big legs serve no purpose in such endurance work. rather, smaller, more durable muscles work. ever wonder why metal smiths have really large forearms? because their work requires impressive hand and wrist strength, and big forearms get the job done.

everything is about adaptation. if we bench heavy, our bodies will adapt to be able to do that specific task. but if we don't do endurance work, the next time coach asks us to drop and give him 50 pushups, we'll be gasping at 14. the same goes for the endurance fan. coach tells them to drop and give 50, they'll push out 50 before you can blink. but when coach says hit the weights, they'll be struggling to bench a quarter more than their own body weight for more than a couple reps. i can pump out 50 pushups on demand, and will taunt toby incessantly because he has the endurance of a big mac at an overeaters anonymous meeting. however, if i tried to squat how much toby does, my back would crumple and you'd find me lying in a heap under the weights.

if you want to get good at lifting heavy, lift heavy. if you want to get good at endurance work, do endurance work. body weight will only get you so far until your body gets used to the resistance. the only way to get stronger is to ... add more weight.

[rubthebuddha]

So, you'll be posting some links for us then?? that's like grouchy smurf telling jokey smurf to not be so angry all the time. :o

[IronFist]

I'm not fanatical about one system being the best for everything.

rtb said it best:
only system i'm fanatical for is scientific fact.

If I want strength I train with heavy weights. If I want endurance I do endurance stuff.

I just make sure I know what's going on so I don't end up thinking that running a lot or doing a lot of pushups will let me squat and bench a lot of weight.

[FooFighter]

MS. Blooming Lotus

I am having a hard time of understanding your points. I guess I will have to ask you some questions. For example, I didnt get this paragraph: "When you're talking about many individuals the argument becomes a case study. Matt furey may be slick, but we are not so much talking about him so much more than in the capacity of a signular of many examples."

Are you saying that we should stay away from field case studies which is based on scientific theory and reasoning and just focus on few indivdual cases? How objective is that and what good would that be for the exercise physiology? Also what theory are you speaking about you wrote "This theory [what theory, BL?] has made sense to me for quite some time, and is how I have trained for several yrs, hence the thread, with guys like Ford, Iron, Toby, possible RTB, etc being so fanatical or dedicated their system [what system, BL?]....".

BL, Bruce Lee is one of the first martial artists who started using western exercise science to improve his performance and as he matured he got away from his previous body weight exercises and focus on strength conditioning. My reference to Lee is not a point for or against bw exercises. My point is objectively knowing what your body needs to be functional and doing what needs to get done. Ironically, due to Bruce Lee many martial artists started to take up western strength conditioning as a mean to improve their skills and disaproving the myths of men like Matt Furey. Lastly, perhaps Body building Science has corrupted many martial artists and even atheletes of what is authentic strength/power. Body building has led me astray for short time. <wink>

[red5angel]

Hershell Walker claims he only used (still uses) body weight training, and he was a monster in college, the USFL, and the NFL. He claims he's never touched weights.


That's an urban legend. He does and did use weights but he also did alot of body weight exercises.


As for navy seals and army rangers, if no one has said it before now - there are a couple of reasons Mr. Fury forgets to mention as to why they mostly use body weight type stuff. First, large amounts of muscle mass are hard to support, you have to get alot of calories and you have to lift a lot of weight consistantly. Something you won't necessarily be able to do when humping it 120 miles to the bad guy and back. It also just takes way too much time considering all the life saving and life taking training your doing in those professions. In short, weight lifting is not practical but body weigt exercises go with you ;)

[abobo]

BWE definitely has its place. It's a good place to start for most people for a few reasons.
1) usually convenient
2) lots of variations of compound movements; someone relatively untrained can get a challenging workout
3) the nervous system adapts faster than connective tissue, so going hardcore into the gym from the start might lead to injury

Those are all good things. Number three will be a lesser issue after a while though. After that, what do you miss by skipping the iron?

Even with stuff like stances, side lunges and pistols, the resistance of your body is not the most efficent way to strengthen your legs. Doesn't do much for the posterior chain either.

You could move into doing more explosive stuff and depth jumps etc, but I don't see that being too productive for BW only trained legs.

Also, for bodybuilding purposes, if you can't tax certain muscle groups enough with just your body weight, they won't grow.

Even for the upper body exercises with weights make it a lot easier to vary and control the resistance. And you have more options. Handstand pushups are comparable to an overhead press, but what's comparable to a bench press? Good solid compound movement, that.

I do various forms of pullups and some rope climbing, but I think weighted pullups are the no nonsense way to increase pulling strength.

Therefore I think that unless you don't have access to equipment, various forms of weight lifting and BWE should complement each other. Why limit yourself when it comes to efficiency in improving strength, coordination, and body composition?

Gymnasts use other methods of strength training than just BWE (http://www.usa-gymnastics.org/publications/technique/1996/8/strength-training.html), even though the sport is more focused on body positions than any other.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by red5angel
That's an urban legend. He does and did use weights but he also did alot of body weight exercises.

http://www.usaweekend.com/health/fitness_archive/961103qa_fitness.html


George Foreman:

I've seen Walker win a lot of contests on TV. I've also met him a few times; he's a great guy. He has an excellent body and has been able to avoid injury over a long career, so he must be pretty flexible. He's a strong man, but very balanced.

According to his agent, Walker swears by a routine that does not include weight lifting. He does 750-1,500 push-ups and 2,000-3,000 sit-ups a day. He does different sets of push-ups: with hands close together, with hands more than shoulder-width apart, and with hands down by his waist. He also runs, jumps rope and does isometric exercises (such as dips) using his own body weight as resistance.

In the off-season, Walker practices martial arts several hours a day and runs sprints in addition to his sit-ups and push-ups. He eats just one meal a day (usually broiled chicken with vegetables) and does not drink alcohol.

As I've said before in this column, I never worked out with weights when I was world champ in 1973. I got in shape with push-ups, sit-ups and old-fashioned hard work like chopping wood and stacking logs. Exclusive BWE is his press story, at least. He has a book out about his training methods:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0385265042/qid=1089319103/sr=1-3/ref=sr_1_3/104-4085472-1764752?v=glance&s=books

[Ford Prefect]

Except of course college and NFL teams have regular mandatory weight lifting that you have to attend and perform. He may use exclusive bwe's before and after his college/nfl days, but not during. Also, let's talk about the rule rather than exceptions to it. Walker is a genetically gifted indivual.

[IronFist]

Yeah, you can't make cases based on exceptions to rules.

I have big shoulders and I never do shoulder work. Does this mean the best way to develop shoulder size and strength is to never do shoulder work? Of course not! All it means is I'm a freak and you can't go by what I do.

[rubthebuddha]

not to debate foreman, but i'm thinking he got socked in the head too many times:


does isometric exercises (such as dips) using his own body weight as resistance. the name of the exercise -- dip -- implies motion, of which isometrics have none.

and yes, walker and ironfist are both freaks.

[FooFighter]

IronFist:

I recalled that Charles Poliquin taught in his book that it was possible to get great shoulder development indirectly by doing compound upper body movements. So you arent so freakish and it is quite normal.

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by red5angel
That's an urban legend. He does and did use weights but he also did alot of body weight exercises.


As for navy seals and army rangers, if no one has said it before now - there are a couple of reasons Mr. Fury forgets to mention as to why they mostly use body weight type stuff. First, large amounts of muscle mass are hard to support, you have to get alot of calories and you have to lift a lot of weight consistantly. Something you won't necessarily be able to do when humping it 120 miles to the bad guy and back.

and they have ample fuctional strength regarless..............

RTB........You're telling me I'm grumpy smurf no??........hilarious.........you should read the other folks posts from this seat :rolleyes:

abobo.why do want bigger muscles exactly??.........since when does size equate to greater functional strength??

ON WALKER: okay, I don't believe in the concept, but for arguments' sake, lets say the guy is a gentic freak............how does he choose to optimise his god-given potential???....BWE.......He is not an exception at all and I can absolutely see myself doing his routine, if I didn't have other knowledge for variations.............

so far, you've hardly been objective nor provided anything intellent. If you state you're right, I want links! Challenge has been issued, have you got case study links to examples or the reverse trade for better results or don't you???

[IronFist]

Originally posted by FooFighter
IronFist:

I recalled that Charles Poliquin taught in his book that it was possible to get great shoulder development indirectly by doing compound upper body movements. So you arent so freakish and it is quite normal.

It's possible in some cases, ie. mine.

Other people have no such luck with it. I know people who don't do any should work and get no development, and then they do shoulder work and still get no development. Those people just have shoulders that don't want to grow... kind of like my biceps.

[rubthebuddha]

no, i'm not saying you're grumpy smurf. i'm implying that you asking someone for links to support them is conspicuous, as you don't provide backup even after criticism and request of this lack.

[blooming lotus]

at least I've given you something, and already there have been other examples posted to support my theory ( regarding BWE over weights ; for those who didn't catch it ( FF take notes)).

I get harrassed often here for not doing the very thing you no one else here will offer. When the shoe's on the other foot, can you walk the mile?

[IronFist]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
When the shoe's on the other foot, can you walk the mile?

You can't rollerskate in a buffalo herd. :confused: :rolleyes: :eek: :rolleyes: :mad: :p :rolleyes:

[blooming lotus]

don't worry, if you're too scared to challenge your own knowledge and can't give me information to support what you claim, I'll go elsewhere............discussion over.

[rubthebuddha]

The SAID Principle: Your muscles and their respective sub cellular components will adapt in highly specific ways to the demands (adaptive stress) you impose upon them in your training. This applies as well to various bodily systems and tissues other than your muscles. This is the "SAID" Principle, an acronym for "Specific Adaptation to Imposed Demands. If your training objectives include becoming more explosive, then you have to train explosively. If you desire greater limit strength (primarily from an increase in the cross section of myofibrils), you must use heavier weights than if you were training for (say) local muscular endurance (capillarization and mitochondrial adaptations). If your objectives include deriving cardiovascular benefits, then you must tax the heart muscle as well as the oxygen-using abilities of the working muscles. composed by Fred Hatfield, PhD MSS, from http://www.drsquat.com/index.cfm?action=viewarticle&articleID=38
Dr. Hatfield, in addition to being an expert in sports science, has previously demonstrated physical skills to compliment his sharp mind:
Squat: 1014 pounds
Bench: 523 pounds
Deadlift: 766 pounds
Total: 2303
Snatch: 275 pounds
Clean and Jerk: 369 pounds
Olympic Lift Total: 645 pounds

all you had to do was ask. if you need more, simply do a search for "specific adaptation to imposed demands."

[blooming lotus]

that's not what I asked for. So he can lift a truck load.........so what??.........I'm talking examples of functional strength as an elite world class athlete where prior they did BWE , made the trade and took the crown as a result......you know if it was the other way around, you wouldn't be satisfied either and by now we would be on 6th page of insults toward my intellegence, experience, sexuality, parenting, location, asthetic value and so on so forth ( yes .the majority of responses present like that).........I don't care. I asked you to put up or shut up, you had nothing but patronisation and trite comments...end of story

[Fu-Pow]

The funny thing to me is that the guys on this forum hold power lifters and strengh training in such high regard.

When's the last time you picked up your opponent over your head and smashed him into the ground?

If you did, wasn't there a more efficient way to get the job done?

As a martial artist you want your conditioning to be at the same time very general (to be adaptable) and also specific to your chosen art.

Here for example is what I train:

All manner of stretching including PNF stretching.

Internal work (Nei Gong):

-Sitting/Standing meditation
-Chan Si Gong exercises (think spirals)
-Hun Yuan Gong (think opening/closing of the torso)

External Work (Wai Gong):

-Regular Knuckles pushups
-Forward/Reverse Hindu Pushups on the knuckles
-Crunches
-Diagonal Crunches
-Oblique Crunches
-Stance training
-Plyometric hopping up and down stairs

As part of a very general cardio circuit training:

-Lat pull downs
-Military press
-Tricep pull downs
-Bicep Curls
-Back extensions
-Cable Rows
-Pectoral Flies
-Reverse of pectoral flies (can't remember name)

Cardio:

-Jump roping
-Bag work


Then there's all the stuff that is very specific to my art involving forms, hard conditioning, weapons, free sparring and push hands. (These facets of my training involve more than one aspect of training so they are hard to categorize. )

It's a lot I know....i'ts because I train two styles with their own strategies, body mechanics, exercises etc.

Anyways, my point is that you want to train for speed, agility, flexibility, muscular balance, endurance, power and adaptibility in a very general kind of way.

And then in addition train the movements that are functionally specific to your art.

For MA's I don't think you want to be training like a power lifter, nor like a long distance runner.

You really want to cross train in a "general gymnast"/dancer kind of way.



:D

[blooming lotus]

just took this one to the shower, and in the name of fair play, let me pose this question....from experience, who here can tell me ( if you can't answer the initial request), that they are using this method of weight training to acheive results at world class standrard , there -fore I cannot possibly be right and your system is working to produce these results?????

[Ford Prefect]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
that's not what I asked for. So he can lift a truck load.........so what??.........I'm talking examples of functional strength as an elite world class athlete where prior they did BWE , made the trade and took the crown as a result......

How about your Hershel Walker example? He did only BWE when he was in high school. Big deal. He was a gifted athlete and could have sat around and eat MCDonalds and still have been better than his competition.

It's a completely different story after high school though. In Division 1 College Football and in the NFL, the teams have athletic trainers. Especially in college, there are regular mandatory weight lifting sessions that you have to attend. Every single team uses weights at the corner storn of their strength and conditioning program. He lifted weights in college. He lifted weights in the pro's.

Who knows if he would have been anywhere near as successful if he was allowed to just do BWE. The thing was that he wasn't. He lifted weights and became a great running back...


This is really a moot point. The most important thing in many athletic disciplines is the training of the dicipline itself. Like somebody already said, SAID: Specific Adaption to Imposed Demands. Using things like BWE and weights will help with gross motor movements. For example, a hip extension. This is the prominant movement in sprinting and jumping, both of which require explosive action. Things like a power clean and explosive squat will directly carry-over to running and jumping ability.

There are diminishing returns though. Once you reach a high level of strength, eeking out an extra 3 pounds on your squat really won't mean much. That's when you have to train the skill itself. You have to train your form and the mechanics of running to get the most out of your strength levels. This is the line between GPP, General Physical Preparedness, and SPP, Specific Physical Preparedness.

This is the same for any physical activity. A Navy SEAL needs endurance most all. He trains this through high-rep BWE's which tax his body's endurance systems. He jogs and swims for miles and he rucksack maches long distances. All these fit a specific need of his.

A Football player needs explosive strength and speed. If you want somebody to become a better sprinter over a short distance, would you have them go out and run 10 miles? Likewise if they need to create explosive force for a split second, would you have them do a low intensity exercises for minutes?

Even if we didn't know everything we do today about human biology, biomechanics, and physiology it just wouldn't make sense to do that? Get your head out of the clouds and actually think about it.

[Ford Prefect]

Fu,

We are not talking about martial arts. We are talking about different means of developing different types of strength. BL is insisting the you can use low intensity exercise (ie a push-up) that taxes a certain energy system to increase strength levels in a high intensity exercise (ie a bench press).

As dense as you generally are, this sentence holds a great deal of truth and is well said:

Anyways, my point is that you want to train for speed, agility, flexibility, muscular balance, endurance, power and adaptibility in a very general kind of way.

And then in addition train the movements that are functionally specific to your art.

[blooming lotus]

who said walker did weights???.....he claims he didn't and no-one else besides a few submisations indicate otherwise.

Seals and berets are world class combat professionals and you know their drill. Regardless of why, they don't lift.

To make it very clear, I am not asking how your system works because that I know already. I am asking if you have examples and links of where it has been directly responsible for world - class combat performance and acheivement as opposed to where the athlete had used BWE prior to no joy.

[Ford Prefect]

Functional Strength vs. What? Unfunctional strength? Any strength gained can have obviously have a function, so how did this term come about and how can we define it?

Truth of the matter is "functional" strength is a term that is oft thrown around but ill understood. It doesn't mean real world strength. Like I said, doing curls will help me in some actions both in the real world and on the grappling mat.

Where it actually comes from:

Functional Strength: A term to describe strength gained through neurological adaptions. You didn't add muscle, so the increase in strength is in the better "function" of your muscles and nervous system.

It's counterpart:

Structural Strength: These are strength gains due to muscle growth; both myofabrillar and sarcoplasmic hypertrophy. Both types add strength; just different dimesnions of strength.

That's all. Can we please stop throwing around that term?

[blooming lotus]

functional strength as in relation to your specific objective..and picking up boulders at the strong man competition is not what I am refering to.

I really think Fu pow has the right idea. Martial Artistry is not so much a feat of strength as it is skill, edurance and cariovascular. I guess this why at the most highly reputed school in the world for ma training ( Tagou martial arts academy - shaolin ), they have the compents of drills, acrobatics and form.............. resultant strength from this programme is ample and we have seen world class champions come from this system consistently from its' conception.

I personally equate martial performance similarly to FuPow, and train accordingly.

I don't want to get your panties in a knot if it will hurt you, so being that there is no real evidence to support your claims of viabilty of your method, I am happy to shelf it and close the thread.

thank you for participating

[Ford Prefect]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
who said walker did weights???.....he claims he didn't and no-one else besides a few submisations indicate otherwise.

How about all the trainers for the Cowboys when he joined them. Even Herschel Walker in his own book says he did plyometric training which is a form of high intensity training.



Seals and berets are world class combat professionals and you know their drill. Regardless of why, they don't lift.

Actually they do lift. Their jobs require them to have massive amounts of endurance, so that is what they focus on. The do lift though. Don't take my word for it though. Go ask Stewart Smith as www.getfitnow.com forum. He's a former Navy SEAL and he created the SEAL's indoc course to get hopefuls up to par on their strength levels.




To make it very clear, I am not asking how your system works because that I know already.

To make it very clear, it's not my system. It's how the human body works. It adapts to specific demands imposed on it. Very simple principle. Like I said, would you train a person who needed to be able to sprint 50 yards by having him run 10 miles? Why not?


I am asking if you have examples and links of where it has been directly responsible for world - class combat performance and acheivement as opposed to where the athlete had used BWE prior to no joy.

I know Frank Shamrock used a mostly BWE regimen before graduating to using weights as a primary focus. The power and speed he gained from that weight training and plyometric training is what he says is responsible for his victory over Tito Ortiz in a UFC middleweight championship fight.

Now let's hear your example of where BWE's were directly responsible for world class combat performance when the athlete had previously done weights to no joy. Bare in mind, that when Matt Furey won his championships he was still training with weights. Only afterwards did he meet Gotch who showed him what is covered in his Combat Conditioning course.

[Ford Prefect]

Originally posted by blooming lotus

I personally equate martial performance similarly to FuPow, and train accordingly.

I don't want to get your panties in a knot if it will hurt you, so being that there is no real evidence to support your claims of viabilty of your method

lol! You silly little girl. I agree with Fu Pow and even said so before you posted.

In the strength training world is is called GPP (general conditioning) to increase various attributes. For instance, you train bwe for endurnace, weights for strength, etc.

Then there is SPP (specific conditioning). These would be the drills and movements specific to your sport.

Pick up a book. It helps.

[blooming lotus]

really???............well there's a nice peice of sarcasm.what happened??.catch you on the back foot???


I am only continuing to post because I respect your desire for knowledge in this respect. The arguement is sealed as far as I'm concerned unless proven otherwise. You're chasing tails, stating untruths and disregarding information given.

I've got lectures to plan so perhaps I'll return a little later.

Peace Ford

[blooming lotus]

Ps.....ever heard about the old dog and new tricks ????

[Ka]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
functional strength as in relation to your specific
I really think Fu pow has the right idea. Martial Artistry is not so much a feat of strength as it is skill, edurance and cariovascular. I guess this why at the most highly reputed school in the world for ma training ( Tagou martial arts academy - shaolin ), they have the compents of drills, acrobatics and form..............
If this is you definition of what MA or Fighting people should be then I would sugest following training reigemes of Cirque De Soile and other acrobatic troups.Others may see MA skill in modern day presented in active military groups (such as special op divisions).Others may see it as a mix of Asian culture, philiosphy and tradition(in training).You could argue forever (and I think many on forums spend haours doing just that) as to which is more "real" "better" etc, and in the end its largely determined by your own eniviroment and goals.
Eithier way all use weight training in some format.


Originally posted by blooming lotus
resultant strength from this programme is ample and we have seen world class champions come from this system consistently from its' conception.
I personally equate martial performance similarly to FuPow, and train accordingly.
Its been said before,but this is largely your opinion /perception of "how it is"."World Class Champions" at what?Who exactly are they competing against? Can they compete in Olympic Gymnastic apparatus events?
It seems this arguement comes round every few months and is continued by the factor that definitions are never set.

[IronFist]

Originally posted by Fu-Pow
The funny thing to me is that the guys on this forum hold power lifters and strengh training in such high regard.

When's the last time you picked up your opponent over your head and smashed him into the ground?

If you did, wasn't there a more efficient way to get the job done?


Ever grappled with someone bigger and stronger than you? I guess not. Cuz otherwise you wouldn't be making that argument. All else being equal is the guy who can deadlift 800lbs going to be harder to grapple with than the guy who never deadlifts? Yes.


As a martial artist you want your conditioning to be at the same time very general (to be adaptable) and also specific to your chosen art.

And part of that conditioning is raw strength. Doing 300 pushups a day won't help you push a 300lbs biker off of your chest in a fight. Doing Hindu squats all day won't give you the raw strength needed to manipulate a heavy opponent on the ground.

And that's all because of SAID.


For MA's I don't think you want to be training like a power lifter, nor like a long distance runner.

That's your opinion. I want to be strong, so I model my training after the strongest people.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by Ford Prefect
How about all the trainers for the Cowboys when he joined them. Even Herschel Walker in his own book says he did plyometric training which is a form of high intensity training.
[/B] This really isn't my argument to get into. I brought Herschel up just as an extreme example of someone who promotes BWE and dynamic tension. However, I would be curious for you to point me toward some references that mention his weight training, because everything I've found says he claims he didn't use weights, even in the NFL. I saw an interview on ESPN a couple of years ago in which he explicitly stated he relied purely on BWE, which is what I was basing my original post on.

NFL athletes have strict training regimes, but at the same time, they are allowed some individuality in their workouts. Jerry Rice had his own routine, as does Ray Lewis, and most other upper eschelon players. So, I could conceivably see Herschel being allowed to train himself under team supervision as long as he stayed healthy and performed on the field.

That being said, I haven't read his book (although a friend recommended it a couple of years ago). If you say he says he lifted weights in his book, I'll take your word for it.

Personally, I lift and do BWE on a regular basis (or as regular as the baby allows).

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by IronFist
Ever grappled with someone bigger and stronger than you? I guess not. Cuz otherwise you wouldn't be making that argument. All else being equal is the guy who can deadlift 800lbs going to be harder to grapple with than the guy who never deadlifts? Yes.

in all honesty, when is there really ever "all else being equal"?.there are always sublties in application methods, constitution and philosophy etc etc.even at even weight and supposed "skill" level

And part of that conditioning is raw strength. Doing 300 pushups a day won't help you push a 300lbs biker off of your chest in a fight.

I think I might enjoy hearing you tell that to a seal or Beret who weighed in at equal to yourself.

[IronFist]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
in all honesty, when is there really ever "all else being equal"?.there are always sublties in application methods, constitution and philosophy etc etc.even at even weight and supposed "skill" level

No, chances are it will never be an issue of "all else being equal."

HOWEVER, I was just saying that to illustrate a point. People do that all the time to simplify things.



I think I might enjoy hearing you tell that to a seal or Beret who weighed in at equal to yourself.

Telling what to a Seal or Beret? That all else being equal, the guy who can DL 800lbs will be harder to grapple with? I'm sure a Seal or Beret would agree with me.

[Toby]

This thread's funny. It's a ****fight and I haven't even got involved yet! Lol!

Eyebrows, I think people will struggle to find an example of someone who was trying to be elite level and not making it doing solely BWE then switched to weights and suddenly "made it". Because almost all sub-elite level athletes will already be lifting. Now using your logic, the lack of evidence on "our" part will mean that you were right all along - so you won! Congratulations - you are brilliant!

Anyway, me no know NFL, but all Australian AFL teams do regular strength training with weights. So do the Wallabies and (I'd hazard to guess) the Super 12's. As would the NRL. So of all the "elite" sportsmen in Australia, none would do only BWE. Unless you wanted to include cricket, but they aren't really elite athletes IMHO. Highly skilled at what they do, but not athletes (look at people like Warnie, Merv Hughes or Boonie). Still I'd guess most would be doing weight training of some sort. In the interests of sharing, what elite athletes or teams can you cite who only do BWE?

BTW, there is only one elite athlete on these boards that I know of. That's Merry. You'll have to ask him his training program - I don't know it.

[blooming lotus]

he would tell you that he couldn't do his job because he didn't bench 300???

sure he would :rolleyes:

[blooming lotus]

Ps.I'm not talking about freaking football.for crimineys sake...........I'm talking man against man combat..........your body vs mine.............

but while we're here, at least I have had the privildge of training under my father and his 5/8, who were national long distance and sprint champions , olympic qualifiers and service men in the NZ Army from a line of soldiers both. It's all I have in the way of int. championship claim to fame, but it's more than likely alot more than others have, even if only for the insight into the combat and taining psycholgy of such, and elite performance in general.

[Toby]

I won't be able to find any since I don't know any "world class combat athletes from Australia" 's training programs. Danny Green? Jeff Fenech? Kostya Tsyzu? Mark Hunt? Elvis Sinosic?

Anyway, why only man against man? Sexist :mad: ;).

[blooming lotus]

(hu)man...........:P

alot of these folks are outta towners anyway, so half of their techniques are from elsewhere..............but australia does have ss ( I know because if I was prepared to take a duel citiszenship I'd be (.no.I wouldn't be front line, because women can't serve).like an ss helicopter chick or something. Don't under rate the green and gold............we have our elite :eek: :D

[IronFist]

What are you guys talking about?

[Toby]

Eyebrows, you mean the SAS? They're about a kilometer as the crow flies from my house. My neighbour across the road was a long time chopper pilot for them. Private contractor now.

Now, I know that arrogance isn't your weak point, but you really think you'd be able to be in the SAS? Not without an operation and some hormone treatment AFAIK. Even then you'd be too small. They're very strict on entry requirements. You wouldn't be able to be a chopper pilot for them. You wouldn't even be able to work for a catering company at their base, I reckon.


Iron, me and Eyebrows are talking now. None of what we talk about makes sense :D. SAS == Australia's military elite. Equivalent to Seals, maybe? They're very good at what they do, anyway.

[Ka]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
.but australia does have ss ( I know because if I was prepared to take a duel citiszenship I'd be (.no.I wouldn't be front line, because women can't serve).like an ss helicopter chick or something. Don't under rate the green and gold............we have our elite :eek: :D
WTF
What are you talking about??!!!
SS represents what????
Australia has SAS and Comando's on CT.
Combat:plenty going on around the world so jump in.
Its unlikely in theatres of war(combat) that anyone any where goes one on one fair or unfair.The goal of most frontline miltary organisations is the close with the emeny and kill them.Not to give them a fair go.Aust infrantry strategy is 3:1(3 of us to 1 of opposition if attack is to be considered),the US is higher.

If you want a demostration of best skill of individuals within one on one, hand to hand then the many Full contact competitive sports are area in which to find them.If you want acrobatics and form work go back to shaolin.
Please regcognize the differences.

[Ka]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
but australia does have ss ( I know because if I was prepared to take a duel citiszenship I'd be in
Are you are talking about the SAS? Allthough I think you are talking about ASIS or ASIO (actually I really don't know what you are talking about)Tell me when you served in the miltary to be "in", the SAS doesn't take direct entry.I have done the Cadre course and "pulled the pin" as they say in the third week.I can tell you that
1.no women on the cadre
2. there is a lot of load bearing work.
3. training programe for the cadre has lots of weight lifting as well as endurance work.

[Toby]

There'd be no chopper pilots in ASIS or ASIO unless they're really hiding what they do well. Which I doubt :p.

Anyway, early this year the SAS did have a direct intake. I was actually (for a fleeting second) thinking about applying, but I'm afraid of heights and it's not called Special Air Service for nothing ;). IIRC they were after specific people - ex-high level sportspeople in particular (AFL etc).

[Ka]

Originally posted by Toby
Anyway, early this year the SAS did have a direct intake.
Fair Enough, I didn't know they had direct entry now(but I am surprised not many sportpeople have much experience in running in GPs).Although I did know they are recuriting for the ADF in general like mad men,no surprise given the current world climate. This might effect the entry stardard,even in my day they had "Weetbix" intakes,but none the less I don't buy our 47kg friend as a "sure thing" let alone her mental status.I thought for a moment she was thinking about he Spy business.
BL: So now you can fly a helicopter?

[blooming lotus]

yes the sas.I think the only pre -requ was that I'd've needed to serve 2 yrs as an officer ( which I go straight in as) first.front line is out for chick, medic , chopper pilot etc in.gotta run

[Merryprankster]

LOL at the concept of me being elite! I appreciate the compliment though! I'm working towards it.

When I win the Pan-Am's and the World's in 2005, you can call me elite.

So I'll be prepared to take your congratulations then!!!

[FooFighter]

I have read all the arguments here and to be quite frank it is rather pointless to argue and try to change the convinctions of anyone here. There is no productive and enlightening discussion present but a mob attack on a woman who in my opinion does not know well enough to present her case with supporting evidence. Not that "evidence" alone should lead us all of our daily beliefs and choices in life because there are things which the hearts desires that reason or common sense doesnt know 'why'?

If Ms. LotusBloom, who seems to be in Matt Furey's camp of thought, wants to believe BWE is superior than weight training and she is a bad arse navy seal type warrior, then so be it. The will to believe is more important than strength training. If that is your sincerest belief, madam, then God bless you and more power to your bad arse self. In the end, what does it matter to you or I if Ms. Bloom changes her tune? It makes no difference in my book.

The only thing I will say to you Ms. Bloom is that you made it clear that you believe some of us are all anti-BWE and we are strong minded in the superiority of weight training over BWE. This is not the case and we arent all Iron Heads, Iron Fist <kidding>, and or meat heats when it comes down to strength conditionings. Some of us have a healthy balance in knowing how to combine the best training methodologies in a very functional and productive long term periodization plan. Good Luck and Best Wishes Folks.

Your loving A-Hole,

[Ford Prefect]

Gymnastics is completely different from performing 100's of BWE reps, Wall. The movements and positions in gymnastics require high degree's of muscular tension in order to perform. That's what your muscles react to. They don't know the difference between weights and your own bodyweight. All the know is how hard, how long, and how many times they have to contract. In a nutshell, the just care about how much force they need to produce and for how long. They then adapt to those imposed demands. Gymnastics requires large amounts of force... hindu push-ups do not.

[FooFighter]

Wall:

I like your post and thought you made a good point. I can respect and appreciate someone of your background. I always envied gymnastic people when they move with power and grace. From what I understand the secret of certain gymnastic movement is the generation of body tension which is a great skills in itself. This can be compare to power lifting due the fact that it is also requires generating tension. In some cases certain BWE does not requires to generate much tension, eg two arm push ups. However single arm push ups requires much more body tension and this can similar to Power training.

[wall]

Thanks FF :) ... FP, I agree, that's why I was talking about gymnastic-related bw training (pullups, rope climbs, static holds, power holds, etc) rather than generic bw training such as hundreds of pushups or situps, which is "endurance" rather than "strenght" training :)

[Ford Prefect]

Blooming Lotus,

Check out these links:

www.frankshamrockusa.com (attributes his weight training after doing bwe's to his success in beating Tito Ortiz in the UFC Championship fight)

www.getfitnow.com (Stew Smith former SEAL and creator of many of the Navy's SEAL PT courses talks about how lifting weights is a must)

www.renegadetraining.com (John Davies uses combinations of BWE's and weight training to produce world-class athletes in track&field, baseball, basketball, football, and soccer. He says that if you neglect one, you'll miss a lot)

www.defrancostraining.com (John Defranco uses mostly weights to train world class athletes in wrestling, football and basketball)

www.elitefitnesssystems.com (Westside Barbell has used mostly weights to premote world record holding power lifters, and world-class athletes in other sports including wrestling)

http://www.usa-gymnastics.org/publications/technique/1996/8/strength-training.html (USA Gymnastics Website has it's trainers talking about that in order for even a gymnast to reach elite levels, he/she must perform heavy weight training)

Many of the principles used to train these athletes including many world and olympic champions stems from research performed in the Soviet Union. It can be found in works and research studies by Vladamir Zatsiorsky, Mel Siff, Yuri Vershohansky, and Medyedev. The athletes include boxers, wrestlers, and judoka.

Please provide at least one example of a world-class athlete who attributes his success to bwe's when he previously had done weights. Please keep in mind that your poster-boy Matt Furey didn't switch to bwe until after he won his titles. Since he turned to bwe, all he's done is sell some tapes and talk some smack. He has not had one single fight in a competition...

[FooFighter]

Ford,

Why do you bother? I dont think she will change her mind and that is very very good thang. Why? Because single mindness or preference keeps the social world secure and makes it easy to conceptually understanding the nature of a thing. By the way, My ClubBell and order should be comming here today, hoorray!!! It is like Xmas without Santa.

[wall]

FP, I again agree with most of your statements; as you read in my earlier post I am an advocate of a mixed, pro-gymnast approach to compound strenght training, where the goal is maximum functional strenght in the widest motion range rather than max size or max outright strength in limited motion.

In that realm bwe are essential, but of a "power" nature:
- static holds
- power holds
- full range holds
- pull ups
- rope climbs
- pistols
- squat jumps
- handstand pushups
These are then combined with basic compound movements with weights exceeding bw:
- bench press
- squat
- weighted pull ups
- weighted dips

Together, and performed in the appropriate range of motion and in a variety of movement sequences, they give the athlete (IMO but more importantly in the opinion of top gymnastics people around the globe) the maximum functional strenght in the widest motion range.

Tested it on myself, and it did / does work. However this ISN'T a bwe program as in hundreds of situps and pushups, nor it's a bwe-only program.

I've never read anything by Matt Furey by the way, so no idea if the above is in line with his teachings or not.

Wall

[FooFighter]

Wall:

Go to www.mattfurey.com to learn more his philosophy. None of what you mentioned is part of his philosophy. For example, he stated when you able to do 300-500 hindu squats, then you are able to perform a pistol. Is this the best mean to develop the pistol? I bet I can get a person to do at least one or more pistol within a month, then a person who practices hindu squats for reps.

[wall]

FF & FP ... just had a look at his site, very very commercial however some stuff seems good (I read the spills on handstand pushups, stretching, edurance ... all stuff I wholly subscribe to). He does however seem to also advocate the 1000-push-ups-for-growth-and-strenght theories, which are obviously flawed. He seems in ok shape, frankly someone that makes a (good) living out of selling his fitness methods for MA and the like should be in much better shape IMO, well even I am and I'm stuck in an office 9-7 :)

Overall from the little I've read I'd give him a 6 out of 10, but then what would I know I'm just an amateur whilst he's a professional with many published works etc ;)

[Ford Prefect]

Wall,

I agree. There are numerous ways to skin a cat and there are many different attributes that require different approaches to develop. The static holds I assume are things like front levers, planche's, l-sits, etc. All of which take an extreme amount of muscle tension, and also almost as import: kinesthetic awareness.

Bl is just trying to skin a thick skinned cat with a rusty spoon. ;) Don't bother with Furey. He's full of BS. Stew Smith (the former SEAL I mentioned above), and Wayne Fisher (aka Scrapper) have great calethinics work outs if you're interested. He makes grandoise claims (even goes as far as says he chanelled a ghost to create one of fitness programs), switched positions when it best suits him, and has never put his money where his mouth is.

Foo,

I'm bored. Normally I wouldn't bother, but it's been slow at work. The world would certainly be a boring place if everybody agreed. The problem with this is that it's argu'ing science vs religion for the most part. Every strength training researcher agrees with the principles I'm trying to state here. The US (NCSA) and the Soviet approaches are at odds on some things like muscle hypertrophy and periodization schemes, but all research from both sides points to the need for heavy resistance or light-weight using kenitic energy accumulation in order to premote strength and explosiveness. You cannot do it with just BWE. You can start for sure, but the resistance is fixed. You will plateau quickly. Arguing differently is like argu'ing the world is flat. It's rediculous.

[IronFist]

I can barely do 100 Hindu squats but I can do at least 5 pistols cold.

I don't think that being able to do 300-500 Hindu Squats is a prerequsite for doing pistols.

[FooFighter]

"He makes grandoise claims (even goes as far as says he chanelled a ghost to create one of fitness programs), switched positions when it best suits him, and has never put his money where his mouth is."

Dang I didnt know that 411. If that doesnt raise a red flag than I dont know then? Becos where I comes from that be mad crazy, son. Bananas! Word, Matt Furey is like Whoopi in "Ghost". You know speaking to dead people like the white boy in the 6 sense.
I bet he be speaking with Bruce Lee and Brandon on da DL. LOL. Yep, smoking the ill pipe and drinking gin and juice is what makes me create mad shyte too. Word!

[note: I am not serious. I do speak proper white american English and over the phone I sound like an occiental. (LOL) However I can fake a heavy asian accent too if you like. Today is Friday and I be speaking in my third native new yorker's languages ebonics...]

Ford: I know and I agree with your points but let BL do her thing and if people think the world is flat, it doesnt change anything for the rest of us... Enjoy the weekend.

One Love, One body.

[Ford Prefect]

Honestly, I'm just trying to help. I'd be geniunely happy is she actually researched things and imporved her performance because of it.

Ford Prefect: building better human beings.

[FooFighter]

FooFighter: Building better Bridges for Better Human Beings.

[FatherDog]

Originally posted by Fu-Pow
The funny thing to me is that the guys on this forum hold power lifters and strengh training in such high regard.

Strength is a useful component of fighting.

Powerlifters and strongmen are the strongest people in the world.

Therefore, in order to develop a useful component of fighting in the most efficient manner, we are looking at the training protocols developed by powerlifters and strongmen.



When's the last time you picked up your opponent over your head and smashed him into the ground?

Three months ago.



If you did, wasn't there a more efficient way to get the job done?


Maybe, maybe not. It was the most effective option at the time.



Anyways, my point is that you want to train for speed, agility, flexibility, muscular balance, endurance, power and adaptibility in a very general kind of way.

And our point is that the best way to develop power is with heavy weights. So a training program designed for "speed, agility, flexibility, muscular balance, endurance, power and adaptibility" should include heavy weights.



You really want to cross train in a "general gymnast"/dancer kind of way.

Gymnasts train with heavy weights.

http://www.usa-gymnastics.org/publications/technique/1996/8/strength-training.html

[IronFist]

Originally posted by FatherDog
Gymnasts train with heavy weights.

http://www.usa-gymnastics.org/publications/technique/1996/8/strength-training.html

Owned.

[Ford Prefect]

Hey I posted that same link earlier. No fair! ;)


BTW, that frank shamrock one is busted. He changed web addresses:

http://www.frankshamrock.org/

[blooming lotus]

bud you shameless hussy!!!¡£¡£¡£you deleted my freakin post..........I'm just a chick........ .doing it real.....skrew u and your nu attitude

[FooFighter]

You keeping it real, boo? Word, why did you X out my boo's post. Yo, that aint right, dun. For realz, YO! I get mad crazy when someone messes with my baby boo (BloomingLotus). I will find out who did this to you boo and get Tron and RZA and OLD Dirty Bast!@# on his arse. Who is da hussy, Boo? Word is bond, I choke out that N$#@ah and me and da boyz will feed that hussy or ho three weeks old DimSom and Chikin Brokolees and then make that hussy drink my pits' pee water. Ha Ha ha WORD! WU TANG KLAN !!!!

[Note: I do speak and write proper white american English. Howver today is Friday and payday (yeh yeah), I am speaking in my third native tongue. Street Ebonic. Thank you and have a wonder day. *one*]

[Fu-Pow]

Originally posted by IronFist
Owned.

Since FD is on my ignore list I only got to that post through IF's quote:

Anyways, here's the important part, take note:

"Special strength for gymnastics training must answer the demands of gymnastics. The principle of specificity implies that the exercises used in training should be similar to the exercises that must be performed in the competition routine. Therefore, we might imagine that the best training for gymnastics would be more gymnastics. However, long ago this was proven not to be the case (Borrmann, 1978; Oppel, 1967; Plotkin, Rubin, and Arkaev, 1983). Special training is necessary to develop the strength and power in the athlete sufficient for correct technical performance of skills (Hartig and Buchmann, 1988; Oppel, 1967). Repetition of the skill alone will not guarantee even a minimum level of strength to perform the skill correctly.

The observation that a highly developed level of strength cannot be maintained even by the most intensive performance of the movements of the competition routines does not contradict the principle of specificity, but completes it (Bührle and Werner, 1984; Martin, 1991; Verchoshanskij, 1985). Special strength training is necessary, but it must specifically meet the demands of the event, in this case gymnastics skills. What is specific for gymnastics will be discussed below. "


Read that again

"Special strength training is necessary, but it must specifically meet the demands of the event, in this case gymnastics skills."

This just supports my point that the "specific training" must meet the demands of a "specific skill."

I can pretty much guarantee that these gymnasts are not using powerlifting movements in their routines, just like you are not using powerlifting movements (or anything close to it) when fighting.

And if you are, then you are wasting a lot of energy and there are way more efficient methods then hoisting your opponent over your head.

Strength training as part of a general conditioning program?

Sure why not? Nothing wrong with being in good all aroud physical condition. (Which BTW was my original point...not that we should train like gymnasts.)

However, it will do nothing to help you with your specific martial art.

In order to help that along you need "specific training" (strength or otherwise) for a "specific skill" and only a qualified instructor can help you along in that. Not some "sport science" guru in a general way.

But as I assume from your profiles that most of you guys don't have teachers (or arts/styles?) and are going it alone then you have to rely on internet articles for your information.

Too bad it is "general" and not "specific."

Now who's " owned?"

[IronFist]

Special training is necessary to develop the strength and power in the athlete sufficient for correct technical performance of skills (Hartig and Buchmann, 1988; Oppel, 1967). Repetition of the skill alone will not guarantee even a minimum level of strength to perform the skill correctly.


Apply that to MA as well as gymnastics.

[blooming lotus]

As funny as it sounds, I have never read any of Bruce Lees books but he used that electro-pulsing suction thing for muscle developement right ( duai , I saw enter the dragon), so I'm not sure who made the comment, but are you telling me he was also an advocate of weight lifting??..........I know in Asia that life is tough and just through daily tasks you're bound to get some resistence workout regardless.......but at schools run by the best of best who have competed in and taken many different awards out they don't do this as part of their direct syllabus.....I hear you but, but in a well rounded life, what you do in daily tasks, really should be ample for a go getting -in -their- and-doing-it type of person........of course on top of a solid cardio, endurance and form workout.

When I was teaching aerobics and pt'ing back in the early 90's, I was I lifting for a good couple of hrs daily, doing bwe, and a solid up to 4 hrs of cardio/circuit classes on most days and I definately had tone .great legs and arms etc ( and on a side note may I say that this conventional workout did little for the abs I have found since), but since I lost weight routine and traded up for pure bw, cardio and endurance , along with a solid and frequent stretching plan , increasing hrs and intensity as a trade off, ,my performance not only in combat but in fitness persuits in general have never in my life been better since I was a 9 yr old kid winning 36km beach - a-thons training with my father.???

I won't continue to argue because it's obvious alot of you really aren't open to the possibilty, so do what works and peace to you all.

[IronFist]

That electro pulse thing is bull****. It doesn't work. I think the ads say Bruce used one but I don't think he ever did (aside from maybe experimentation). If I recall correctly, those pulse things were used to prevent atrophy in comatose patients or something like that. They have no use to an athlete.

And I just thought I'd point out that Bruce Lee, while an awesome athlete, did not have the best knowledge when it came to training. He's a good source of inspiration and a pioneer, but I wouldn't copy his workouts.

[abobo]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ford Prefect
[B]Hey I posted that same link earlier. No fair! ;)


And I already stole it from the gymnast thread and posted it on page 2 of this one!

[blooming lotus]

I hear that you're saying he had no text book fitness theoretical knowledge ( except what he wrote himself) but if he knew so little, why was he so good???

Also for this purpose , Bruce lee was mentioned in context to support an example of instance of an a grade ma players' trade up to formal weights in argument against my point of their usefulness in martial performance

[abobo]

I had a long discussion with two friends last week about a couple of issues. When you're arguing in person you tend to cut each other off, raise your voices, shush each other, etc. It takes a lot of patience and courtesy to actually get your point across. But when we took turns it meant that we were actually listening to the person speaking. So in the end we answered some questions for each other, came to agreement on some points, and still disagree about others. We also found out that we needed to look up more information to test the validity of our arguments.

In a forum, however, everyone just goes blasting with both barrels and pages of good information goes unrecognized. Well, I want in too...:cool:

BL:


I am only continuing to post because I respect your desire for knowledge in this respect. The arguement is sealed as far as I'm concerned unless proven otherwise. You're chasing tails, stating untruths and disregarding information given.

Fatherdog summed up the argument for including non BW exercise pretty well:
"And our point is that the best way to develop power is with heavy weights. So a training program designed for "speed, agility, flexibility, muscular balance, endurance, power and adaptibility" should include heavy weights."

I'd like to know if the above is something you would call untrue?

Also, this was kind of funny:

IF: Telling what to a Seal or Beret? That all else being equal, the guy who can DL 800lbs will be harder to grapple with? I'm sure a Seal or Beret would agree with me.

BL:he would tell you that he couldn't do his job because he didn't bench 300?? sure he would
Strength is an asset in grappling, A Seal who is reasonable fellow should recognize this (after all, strength is an asset in his job, too) != all seals need to bench 300

Then Fu-Pow said

I can pretty much guarantee that these gymnasts are not using powerlifting movements in their routines, just like you are not using powerlifting movements (or anything close to it) when fighting.
I disagree. As Ford posted earlier "Using things like BWE and weights will help with gross motor movements. For example, a hip extension. This is the prominant movement in sprinting and jumping, both of which require explosive action. Things like a power clean and explosive squat will directly carry-over to running and jumping ability."

As Fatherdog said, we refer to powerlifters and strongmen because that type of training is a very efficient way to gain strength and explosiveness. The point is still that high intensity strength training (ie higher than common body weight exercise) is for the most part a very efficient, tried and true method of getting stronger.

So, I'll take
more strength (from BWE and weights) + specific skills training
over
only strength from BWE + specific skill training

Addressing the second part of your statement, I quote again from what Ford said: "Once you reach a high level of strength... that's when you have to train the skill itself. You have to train your form and the mechanics... to get the most out of your strength levels"
Sure, you don't tie your opponent to a bar and deadlift him/her, but I for one want strong legs, hips, and back, etc. And if I don't get said strength at the expense of MA training, it can only help.

[rubthebuddha]

bl -- bruce was good for one very specific reason: he trained HARD. a lot. he wasn't lazy, obviously, and he gave his workouts his all. he experimented a lot, some with good results, some with not so good results (like good mornings with a bent back :().

as far as the pulse things, i agree with iron (don't act so surprised :D). i don't know his reason, but mine is simple: all those do is make your muscles work. that's fine and dandy, but any kind of regular physical labor -- 1500 pushups or 5 bench reps of 300 lbs -- also taxes your connective tissue.

strong muscles are obviously good, but weak connective tissue is pure badness. you may be able to pick up that huge piece of furniture, as your muscles may fire strongly enough to do so, but your connective tissue may go pop. :(

[Toby]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
... since I was a 9 yr old kid winning 36km beach - a-thons training with my father ...So you were:
(a) running 36km on the beach :rolleyes:?
and
(b) winning against whom? Your father, or other people too? At age 9, right?

Oookay.

[blooming lotus]

ahha.36km..surfers paradise to nobbys beach and back....yr 4 at a school that no longer exists ( thank you mr.bigshot pty.ltd.)........
as well as little athletics , various track and hard core training with my dad, netball, irish dancing blah blah blah.........aha.36kms on the beach...............against peers.............



on the electro thing - there you go on your band wangon, I was stating observation and it should've been clear it wasn't my opinion..........

whgo asked the question if I would call ( ?????????) an untruth?.thats rediculous, that's your opinion and facious or not, it's a contentious statement.


I really don't know what your point is about bruce lee and his over-time workouts.I work to capacity + every time and you do that, next time you go further..............if after the luxury of yrs of time to work that load it brings you to a back bent good morning, well it just does...............then you discover a new level of difficulty..........

[Vash]

AAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!

MY EYES, THEY BLEEEEEEEEED!!! MY BRAIN IS FILED WITH SH.T! MAKE THE BAD POSTS GO AWAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[IronFist]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
I hear that you're saying he had no text book fitness theoretical knowledge ( except what he wrote himself)


I didn't say that at all. Do you just make things up?

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by IronFist


And I just thought I'd point out that Bruce Lee, while an awesome athlete, did not have the best knowledge when it came to training.

yes............fabricate the lot :rolleyes:

Ps: Vash: if you are referring to me and don't like it, get off my thread..........pm ing requesting no bs trite remarks for intellectual discussion ha??.well okay mr. "I wanna talk intellectually" :rolleyes:

[IronFist]

I said he didn't have the best knowledge. Not he didn't have ANY knowledge.

[blooming lotus]

symantics .....same thing really

[cerebus]

Actually, I believe you mean "semantics". And no, not having the "best" knowledge and not having "any" knowledge are not the same at all.

[IronFist]

Correct, they are definately not the same.

For example:

Would you rather have some broken bones or would you rather have not have ANY broken bones?

Do you still think "some" and "not any" are the same?

I'm not sure you're the person who should be teaching English in China...

[blooming lotus]

now who's twisting / changing whose words???............:rolleyes:


please read first , apply context and get back to me

[Vash]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
now who's twisting / changing whose words???............:rolleyes:


please read first , apply context and get back to me

*thanks God for Ignore List*

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
I hear that you're saying he had no text book fitness theoretical knowledge ( except what he wrote himself) but if he knew so little, why was he so good???

Also for this purpose , Bruce lee was mentioned in context to support an example of instance of an a grade ma players' trade up to formal weights in argument against my point of their usefulness in martial performance


ok.........my mistake.....I thought I wrote no "real" text book knowledge......even though you have more than once made similar statements.meiguanxie ( doesn't matter)............just sue me and be done with it

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by Vash
[
MY BRAIN IS FILED WITH SH.T! [/B]

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by IronFist


I'm not sure you're the person who should be teaching English in China...

possibly inappropriate place to get personal, but nice return karma when you felt trepiditious about your own new job ( not that I'm a novice) and had a little while of continued support from the bl faction..........nice one ( sigh at immaturity and ungenerous thoughts of fellow members)

[cerebus]

"trepiditious"?

[blooming lotus]

little unsure, little fearful

[Vash]

trepiditious (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=trepiditious)

huh. fancy that. no entries found.

Alternate spellings, yes. But, I suppose it's all semantics. You know, the language you're using to communicate with others.

[blooming lotus]

oh.you mean like colloquial speech : conversational talking ......like my grammatically incorrect posts ???........dong ( understand)

[blooming lotus]

Am about to picked up any moment to head the 5* hotel my firm is putting me up in. They have a gym there and it'll be only the second time I've been in an official open to public gym in China, considering our focus is ma and training in general, I'll let you know what I find, like what they have and what they're doing. Obviously, I expect to find some ma, but unless I go to the office or pay like 300 rmb per 15 mins, will have no computer....... maybe I'll find a cheap wang ba ( internet cafe) and we'll pick up this conversation later.

cheers

[Ford Prefect]

Fu Pow,

That is what everybody has been saying. Lifting weight is GPP and whatever you do in your system of combat is SPP. Nobody is saying anything differently. You have to develop attributes through general training, and then tune those attributes to your own system of combat through training methods specific to your art/sport.

What BL is contending is that bodyweight exercises can develop maximal strength and thus explosiveness/power as well or even better than weights. She was called on that and a training article from USA olympic gymnatics trainers was posted in which they state that even gymnastics won't be able to build high degrees of strength.

In that she was "owned" as Iron Fist said.

[IronFist]

BL, nothing personal. I'm just saying that I hope you teach your students better grammar than that with which you post on this board.

[FooFighter]

Originally posted by IronFist
Correct, they are definately not the same.

For example:

Would you rather have some broken bones or would you rather have not have ANY broken bones?

Do you still think "some" and "not any" are the same?

I'm not sure you're the person who should be teaching English in China...

I agree with Iron on this and please dont take this personal. My parents are not native English speakers and they are not natural born americans but they seem to write better English than you. Both my parents were serious ESL students when both came to America, NYC in 1974. My mother's spelling is probably at your level and my dad's English is probably at the level of a High School senior. If I was a non native English speaker, I would not want you as my English teacher. I guess being an occidental American gives you creditibility as an English teacher in the eyes of the Chinese? Let me put it this way, would you learn gung fu from a sifu who made careless tecnhical errors and who didnt look refine in his/her ability? Moreover, people in the USA from my observations would put their money and faith in some old asian man or ethnic martial artist, than a white good old boy from Texas. Likewise trust me on this because I have been in China, most Chinese would rather put their money with the occiental english teachers than an ABC (AmericanBornChinese) teachers. Is it wrong or right? Not my place to place moral value on Truth.

[abobo]

I remember reading a while back an article about the Hamm brothers claiming that they did not train with weights; only training gymnastics and exercises with therabands (http://www.usoc.org/12219_12297.htm)

[abobo]

BUT

(1) The article only talked about upper body exercise
(2) It's possible that they use other methods of strength training for the lower body
(3) Even if (2) were not true at the time of the article they have since switched to a new coach, so now it might be
(4) Even if (3) isn't true it is very likely that along the way to reaching world championship levels they used some kind of special strength training.
(5) Even if (4) isn't true there are many other elite athletes (other gymnasts included) who use more than body weight exercise
(6) As stated previously, it's the level of resistance and coordination required that makes gymnastics useful for strength. Exercises with weights can provide the same if not more resistance in addition to being more convenient than joining a gymnastics club.

[IronFist]

It's like this. All the people that think that you can develop absolute strength with BW exercises will find out that you can't if all they do is BW exercises and then they go try to squat or bench 300lbs.

*unless they're genetic freaks.

[FooFighter]

The question is it is "necessary" for martial artists to bench or squat 300 pound, Iron? Is it possible that there are people who can strike powerfully in combat who arent able to squat or bench 300LB?

[red5angel]

I don't think weight lifting strength directly equates to hitting power. You have to learn to use that strength properly, just like anything in the martial arts.

[Ford Prefect]

Red has the right of it as does Foo.

Strength training is not only supplemental, but it needs to be done in a manner that will raise your performance level in your chosen activity. Therein lies the difference between "working out" and "training".

Now obviously benchhing power doesn't equate directly to punching power. You should also not be foolish enough to do things like punching and kicking with weights for physical and neuromuscular reasons. What then are we left to do?

What it comes down to is training attributes. Could you benefit from an improvement in agility? Then run cone drills and ladder drills. Could you benefit from having more speed? Then train plyometrics and weights accordingly. Do you need more anaerobic endurance? Run wind spirnts, jump rope, and do things to hit that system.

After you have developed the attribute, then you practice spcific skills to be improved by that attribute. Hit the bag and the pads. Spar. Drill techniques.

Numbers in the weight room or on the track won't directly mean that the person is a great fighter or will have stellar performance. They do mean that they at least have certain base attributes developed which gives them the potential of then training to have a high level of performance.

Sure a powerlifter might hit like a pansy, but imagine if this absurdly strong man decided to learn how to hit... Look out.

Champions aren't made in the arena of competition. They are made before that in their training. Are you sure you're training harder and smarter than the other guy?

[IronFist]

I thought we were arguing about whether or not bw exercises = weight exercises, not if weight lifting makes you a hard hitter.

[Ford Prefect]

Yeah. People like to twist it into a thousand different things though.

[red5angel]

I was just commenting on foofighters comment foo! don't make me bust a cap!

[FooFighter]

I didnt make a comment or statement, but asked a question. I thought maybe by asking a question would help this tread move foward instead of backward.

I believe most of the misunderstanding is based on misinformation and the belief that BWE or lifting weight exercises alone equals better combatic performance. Certainly this isnt the case and if you examine the concepts found in Periodization or in Coach Scott Sonnon's "3DPP: Three Dimensional Physical Preparedness for Combat For The Combat Athlete" you will understand that both BWE and weight lifting has it place in GPP depending your fitness levels and needs. Moreover since we are in a martial arts forum, I think we should focus our attention on martial arts performance instead of having circular arguments about strength conditioning outside the context of martial arts.
As always Fordperfect gave a good answer to my question.

[fa_jing]

Weightlifting/equipment = more bang for your buck than BW alone. That's what I've found, and I've passed from doing primarily BW exercises to weighted exercises.

Of course, if you are training 6-8 hours a day, you might be looking for less bang over a longer duration.

[FooFighter]

Weight lifting can get more "BANG for the buck" but BWE is better than nothing, Fa Jing. If there were no DBs, CBs, KBs, BBs, then what do you then? Without weight, what is there to lift? I would probably inventive something to make my BWE harder or do something that requires great endurance or strength like chasing women. <wink?>

[FooFighter]

Fu-Pow:

You wrote: "But as I assume from your profiles that most of you guys don't have teachers (or arts/styles?) and are going it alone then you have to rely on internet articles for your information. Too bad it is "general" and not "specific." Now who got owned?"

I think you got served. Maybe we all should dance it out and I will get specific dance training from a breaking dancing sifu. Seriously, I feel your doubts and I hope you dont feel bad that a single person insulted you. Because that person doesnt represent the views of all of us.

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by FooFighter
I agree with Iron........., I would not want you as my English teacher. .

of course you would!!! and for the record record, currently lecturing/teaching english teachers here in China, and just got promoted to head teacher / head master :eek: :eek: :eek:

so I've been sleeping 3hrs a night if lucky while working my a*s of.tired as a mofo.excuse grammar/spelling etc, and just read the content ;)

[Toby]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
excuse grammar/spelling etc, and just read the content ;) Unfortunately your content is sorely lacking too :(.

[Serpent]

So you quit up in Beijing or wherever you were, had the hell train ride all the way Guangzhou and now you're headmaster already!?

You really are full of sh!t.

[blooming lotus]

it's more like head teacher of a certain level , but for some reason they keep calling me headmaster :confused:

Anyway, checked out the gym here, and they have several sand bags, weights ( 2 x nordelous , a bench, preacher bench), various ciruit and cardio machines and equip ( albeit primitive), ping pong tables ( nb : huge in every gym here), some great stretching bars...........twisty ab plate ( ?) doobies and an aerial flying pt, instructor who totally denies knowing gonfu and wants to know why ( after watching a sesh or two of the guy train), why I would say such a thing......lol.........I'm working on him though, and I think if I take a native speaker with me after I show him more of my stuff, we can get a sweat on and get my own aerials happening.

Ps. these bags are dense as hell!!! Out with injured foot so took a bag come weight / bw sesh in lieu and busted my hand. totally bruised and swollen from half way down outer 3 fingers of right down to half of the back of my hand....seriously black and , ( check this out) the bruise went straight through to my freakin palm!!!! :eek: :eek:

so iron.......weights make you hit harder ha????.........that was only like 60 % capacity max, and I had no idea I was packing so much............I think my fajing is good and it's not the power I can generate compared to you, I think it's the ability to absorb the impact ( which your big ol muscle bound selves have I don't)..........I'll start a new thread on it, but I'm working on bone and muscle density without the need for weights............you, toby and ford ( ps thx for the pics.........xingku noted ;) ) have a sustem that works , quite obviously, but I think it's unneccessary, and I'm going to prove it............the jury is still out on how best to go about it, but leave it with me and no dout, youll know when I'm solidly convinced rehash is unneccessary..........open to disscussion though...............

[IronFist]

I never said weights make you hit hard by themselves. When I started hitting the bag I was strong but I couldn't hit hard.

But for any person who already knows how to hit, weight lifting will probably allow him to hit harder.

[Toby]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
...I'll start a new thread on it, but I'm working on bone and muscle density without the need for weights...Start away. I'm pretty sure (without references but I'm sure they're out there) that resistance training is the best thing for bone and muscle density.

BTW your "." key is still stuck :rolleyes:.

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by Toby
Start away. I'm pretty sure (without references but I'm sure they're out there) that resistance training is the best thing for bone and muscle density.

BTW your "." key is still stuck :rolleyes:.

:confused: :confused:

anyway............will do, but if you post w/out refs and announce it, it's ok, ........if I do the same ( beig that generally I'm only one against your many so more noticable when I do) I'm full of miss informatin and my own BS...........hmmm.......thx for proving my point.............even if only to myself



on density............so I hear............but knowing what I've seen here, I've got to beg to differ................I know to open a thread, I'll get little more than trolling generally speaking, bt when I feel like an arguement,.........I'll be sure to kick it off................

[Toby]

I said start a thread. This one's gone more than far enough. I'll find references if/when you do. That's why I said "pretty sure" instead of making it an absolute at this stage.

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by Toby
I said start a thread. This one's gone more than far enough.

how exactly is that not directly relevant anyway??? It's providing more detail as to why my initial statement or concept onthis thread has merit and if none of you are prepared to play devils advocate against your own stickler text knowledge in the name of betterment.........well I'll be dammed, I may as well speak to myself

[Toby]

Shut up. You said:
Originally posted by blooming lotus
... I'll start a new thread on it, but I'm working on bone and muscle density without the need for weights ...So I said to start one because I thought it was worthy of its own thread. Now you're attacking because I should talk about it in this thread? :rolleyes:

Well, here's a thread (http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=31250) for you, since you're too lazy to start one yourself.

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by Toby
, since you're too lazy to start one yourself.


glad you pointed that out..........by the way, who started this one????





:rolleyes:

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
Anyway, checked out the gym here, and they have............................... and an aerial flying pt, instructor............ and I think if I take a native speaker with me after I show him more of my stuff, we can get a sweat on and get my own aerials happening.





last night I got a colleage to come with to the gym and, after throwing every chinese ma term I could think of , came to an arrangement for 2 hrs each night probono offer vs my y1000 a week instistence ( any one tech the dude can show me is priceless..........) had our first sesh..........


form from some bai mei system???? and wtf on that one............generally consisting of spear fists, chops and something like a one open one closed and crazy blocking variation..........


also worked some kicks and aerials and please visit and share thoughts on the thread I'm about to open on the gap closing variations in different "national " styles and their consequential pre-plant/app position and actual place of connection...........


Ie: chinese app vs korean tkd, vs japanese offensive/defensive pos both pre and post plant etc etc........


stay tuned and cheers...........peace in practice , work your a*ses off and enjoy your bodies :cool:

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
As funny as it sounds, I have never read any of Bruce Lees books but he used that electro-pulsing suction thing for muscle developement right ( duai , I saw enter the dragon), so I'm not sure who made the comment, but are you telling me he was also an advocate of weight lifting??..........I know in Asia that life is tough and just through daily tasks you're bound to get some resistence workout regardless.......but at schools run by the best of best who have competed in and taken many different awards out they don't do this as part of their direct syllabus..

I haven't read this whole thread yet, so this may have been said, but lee DID lift weights. He was known to keep a pair of dumbells around and would lift them throughout the day.

[blooming lotus]

1 example of many and every time I mention his mane, without fail someone always steps up to tell us all how he s*cked and ewas beaten by this or that person............irrelevant............

[Serpent]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
1 example of many and every time I mention his mane, without fail someone always steps up to tell us all how he s*cked and ewas beaten by this or that person............irrelevant............
And how is this post relevant?

Proof that he did lift weights, which is directly related to your comments and you come back once again with gibberish. Lee put his back out doing Good Mornings, which is a weights exercise. He experimented with anything that might improve his performance, so certainly wasn't an advocate of bw only training.

[FooFighter]

LotusBloom:

Since you and I are students of southern styles of gung fu which its founders were from Shaolin. I just wanted to point out that lifting weight using anicent equiments were a part of old
Shaolin training. Anicent Shaolin's feats of strength were not only conditioned by BWEs alone. Moreover there are weight exercises which my wing chun school practices that dates back to the old days of Shaolin, not the modern wushu artists pretending to be monks. I may be wrong but you sound like the idea of lifting weights were exclusive to occidental martial artists and that orientals are just all about BWE and think weight lifting is dead wrong. This is a misconception and can tell you that if you go to any serious realistic full contact fighting schools of China, you will see some form weight lifting.

[blooming lotus]

forget it..............stick to your closed minded attitudes and lift all the weight you need to



"you have to think outside the box to be successful"

Donald Trump

[Serpent]

You have to avoid self-delusion and live in the real world to be successful too. Just because you think you have all the answers, don't ignore all the proof to the contrary.

[IronFist]

Haha Bruce Lee lifted a lot of weights. I have a book full of pictures of him using weights. It's called "The Art of Expressing the Human Body." It's not a very good book from a workout perspective, but it's got lots of pictures of Bruce lifting weights.

[Vash]

It's a great book. Definetly a nice little "time capsule" of certain training concepts/theories of the day.

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by Serpent
You have to avoid self-delusion and live in the real world to be successful too. Just because you think you have all the answers, don't ignore all the proof to the contrary.



right, but creativity is great weapon , even in defence.....

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by IronFist
Haha Bruce Lee lifted a lot of weights. I have a book full of pictures of him using weights. It's called "The Art of Expressing the Human Body." It's not a very good book from a workout perspective, but it's got lots of pictures of Bruce lifting weights.




sure he did..........so his name is irrelevant to our conversation...........


when i bring him up it's rambling and the guy s*cked anyway.when you do it, it's unquestionable proof :rolleyes:


so moving on.....................

[IronFist]

Originally posted by Vash
It's a great book. Definetly a nice little "time capsule" of certain training concepts/theories of the day.

You're right.

But for training it's not very good. It doesn't have step by step pictures of exercises, which is vital for a how-to book. And I consider this a "how-to" book because it has step by step descriptions, but not pictures.

I tried to sell mine on the main forum but no one bought it.

[Serpent]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
right, but creativity is great weapon , even in defence.....
But re-inventing the wheel is a total waste of time, especially when your new re-invented wheel comes out square.

[blooming lotus]

the wheel, as in how there are 9 planets and the earth is flat????.............creativity shapes the future and gives us something to laugh about in the past ;)