Northern Long Fist

[YinYangDagger]

OK, I've read some really good posts about some of the forms history in NSLF - notably Lien Bu Chuan and Er Lu Mai Fu.

Anybody heard of Little Five Hands? Or how about the Emperor's Long Fist form? Any good history on those?

[Royal Dragon]

Emperor's Long Fist was said to be created by the Emperor Chao, Kuang Yin shortly after he took the throne in 960 AD. He was the Tai Tzu of the Sung dynasty. His form was taught to Shaolin, and preserved.

The style has many branches. The Long form is taught in 16-18 sections each roughly being 32 to 64 or 72 moves in length.

The style has both Northern and Southern divisions today, and was at the height of it's practice in the Ming Dynasty where it was spread quite prolifically through the military. It had influance on Preying Mantis, Chen Taji Quan, and either was influanced by, or influanced Northern Hong Chuan, Cha Fist and others. Certian branches are known as "Gun Fist", "Six Stance Fist" and the animal for the style is the Monkey.

In addition, there is a short style of the same name that was developed in the Southern Sung dynasty supposedly by the Imperial family to rapidly train troops. This branch started out as simple basic training, but eveloved to be quite deep in practice. Originally it is said to have had 6 forms, today most branches have 8 core sets, but the manuals I'm told document as many as 72 small, short sets.

For more info, please visit my site at www.royaldragonusa.net

[YinYangDagger]

Thanks RD! Very cool site you have there!

[YinYangDagger]

As far as the Emperor's Long Fist forms, are there different versions? I'm sure certain lineages kept certain forms, and other lineages may have changed some moves here or there (it always seems to happen, i.e. Hung Gar, Mantis, even Songshan Shaolin).

Under the Long Fist page here, there's an Emperor's Long Fist, look familiar?

http://johnswang.com/

[reemul]

We do a form called Emperors boxing which is a two man form
and utilizes longfist technique (no kicks as that was considered unbecoming of the emperor and considered base of dirty) It also utilizes Chin na techniques.

[herb ox]

Your reference to "Gun Fist" - any chance that's the same as "Cannon Fist" a.k.a. "Pao chuan" ?


peace
herb ox

[Royal Dragon]

Which one is the Tai Tzu one?

I have seen 2 from John Wang in the past, one was from the Southern branch, and although I didn't recognise the specific form, it's flavor is distinctly from the Southern Tai Tzu Quan.

The other set I saw from him is known as Tai Tzu Chang Chuan, or sometimes Xiao Tai Tzu Chang Chuan. It's the third set in my system if you count Wu Bu Chuan as the first.

The Preying Mantis guys have a version of that set as well.

[Royal Dragon]

Gun Fist is not Pao Chuan.

Sometimes it is known as Gun Fist of the Chao school, becasue it descended from the Tai Tzu style. It looks like and expanded mix of the Northern, and Southern to me. I can't be sure, I only have 2 sets of it on file, and I never worked them out.

[Royal Dragon]

Reemul,
Are you doing a Tai Tzu two man set?? Or Three Emperor's Pao Chuan?

Interesting on the no kicks, Tai Tzu has lots of them, and it was created by the Emperor himself. I guess each dynasty has it's quirks ehy??

[YinYangDagger]

sorry guys, Mr. Wang changed his webpage for a while, so the Emperor's Long Fist clip won't be on it for a couple more days

[SPJ]

RD;

Excellent posts and websites for Tai Tzu.

YYD;

Good links. I liked the Mongolian Shuai Jiao clips, too.

[Royal Dragon]

Thanks for the complements. My web skills suck, and I basically did that wihtout an editor. I made it in word, and HTML code.

I'd like to redo it, as I have ideas for a cooler site, but I just don't have the time right now.....................or anytime soon for that matter.

Oh, I am also discussing this on Dragon's list (Amidst lineage wars)


http://www.dragonslist.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=8015

[YinYangDagger]

RD - Funny you should mention Pao Chuan, Master Wang is performing it as well and a host of other Long Fist forms on his website. You just have to keep checking out his page (listed above). I think he's working on his site, so the Long Fist forms show up here and there vs. the SC clips.

Anyway, RD (and others) I would like to get your opinion of the forms. Just curious, NOT THAT I DOUBT MASTER WANG AT ALL (just wanted to clarify that).

[Royal Dragon]

I'm only qualified to judge the Tai Tzu set, and from what I see it is done prety much the same as any other one I have. I have 3 copies of that set documented, one is Wang's, the other two are shot from the stands at a competition in Taiwan. All three are different versons of the same form.

Tai Tzu seems to have three main northern branches, one that resembles Shaolin Kung Fu, Cha Fist, and the other Hong Fist. John Wang's looks like it's from a Cha Fist looking branch.

[Robert Young]

Royal Dragon

> I have 3 copies of that set documented, one is Wang's, the
> other two are shot from the stands at a competition in Taiwan.
> All three are different versons of the same form.
In Taiwan, there is only one Tai Zu Chang Quan which is from our GM Han's line. The reason they look different was because they were taught by different people and were interpreted differently or not completely correct.
Long Fist family is a BIG family. Many many people practice Long Fist, but not many people are good at it. Because there are many people practice the form, there are going to have many different interpretation of the form. Most people did not learn directly from our lineage. That is why there are some difference versions of the same form. Tai Zu Chang Quan is a trade mark form of Long Fist family. But, if the form is learned by some people practice southern styles or other styles originally, it will be interpreted totally differently. And, Southern styles are more popular in Taiwan originally. So, it is normal to generate many different versions of the same form in Taiwan or any where else. That is why people in my teacher's generation call themselves Han's family, not just Long Fist family. In our mind, Long Fist is more of a general term of our style. Our teacher's style is really what we call ourselves, because it is our teacher who affect us the most, not our grand teacher or our Long Fist uncles. Form historical point of view is the same. How and where the forms came from are not that important. The important part is how our teacher taught us and how our teacher interprets the forms and how we learn from the teaching. That is why we call ourselves Jian's family, because my teacher's last name is Jian. This is very very traditioanl Chinese way of expressing our lineage.

YinYangDagger

I hope the explanation can show you my view of historical view of Chinese martial arts. It is that where the forms came from are not that important. How much you can learn or gain from the form is important. How much you can learn are from your teacher(s), but not from the family or styles. I hope I can give you or anyone more of our Long Fist history, but the history part simply was not that important in our Chinese martial art society and wasn't recorded or passed down as we would like. Individualism actually play a big role in our Chinese martial art society.

Cheers,

[YinYangDagger]

I understand what you're saying RY, but I have a thirst for history, not just martial, but all, including European medieval, Japanese, Russian, etc. I just like history :cool:

[Royal Dragon]

RY,
Yes, there are different versions of the set. This goes to a much larger scale as well. Tai Tzu although still Long Fist wherever I find it, is organised differently depending on the line it comes from.

Do you have and familiarity with the school run by the son of the late Liao Wuchang? They are a big Tai tzu school out of Taiwan. Liao Wuchang specialised in the Tai Tzu Monkey. He called his system "Stone Killer Monkey". I have a few of thier Long Fist sets documented, as well as thier Southern Tai Tzu Quan and a couple of thier Southern Monkey sets.

[YinYangDagger]

"Liao Wuchang specialised in the Tai Tzu Monkey. He called his system "Stone Killer Monkey". I have a few of thier Long Fist sets documented, as well as thier Southern Tai Tzu Quan and a couple of thier Southern Monkey sets."

Very interesting, anytime you have time to go in greater depth on this, feel free :D

[Royal Dragon]

That's all I really know. I know a Tai Tzu senior in Australia who is of that line, but my first hand knowledge is limited to the above, and some sets I have from thier comercial video avaliabe at Shaolin Inc.

I have another of him doing various stick forms too. It's all in Chinese though, but I hear the term "Tai Tzu Quan" repeted over and over during the explanations of each set, so I think they are all Tai Tzu stick sets from his system.

Liao Wuchang is my hero, because he was older than dirt when these video's were done, and he still moved with such strength, and energy.

You can go to Empty flower, and see a few clips of him throwing his son around. He's much younger in those clips, but still old.

http://www.emptyflower.com/video.html

The two man set he's doing looks like the drills I have from "San Pan" a two man set taught in the Southern Tai Tzu Quan system. I don't actually have the set myself though, just the drill he's doing that are suposedly derived from that set.

From Liao Wuchang's system I have

1. San Zhen (performed by Liao Wuchang)
2. 4 doors (performed by his Son)
3. Cutting slice (Not sure who performs it, but he looks like a young Liao Wuchang, possibly a younger son??)
4. Three gates (Performed by his son)
5 Yi Lu (performed by his son)
6. Two man drills derived from San Pan (Performed by Liao Wuchang and his Son)
7. A monkey set (performed by his son)
8. The Monkey set you see him doing on Empty flower (Which was my source for that set BTW)
9. A snipit of a broad sword and shield set (performed by Liao Wuchang)

Plus I have a bunch of stick stuff including him doing a banner, flag set.

I have worked out the entire empty hand style except for the Monkey stuff. I am looking forward to decipering the forms with someone someday. If I ever get rich, I'd love to go to Taiwan and see the school his son runs. Maybe ask for corrections on the sets as I know ther are genral public versions for the comercial tapes i'm sure. I'd love to get the original versions.

[Robert Young]

Royal Dragon

I know Liao WuChang. I saw him performed all the time when I grew up. He and my teacher are good friends. His style is called TaiZu. It is a southern shaolin style, popular in Taiwan too. All the forms he taught are called Tai Zu Quan in general. But, each form has its name. Like the forms in our Long Fist are called Long Fist, but each form has its own name. The Tai Zu Chang Quan in our Long Fist is only a form, not a style. It is easy to confuse people. Master Liao's TaiZu Quan is totally different from our system. It is a typical southern shaolin, where ours are typical northern shaolin. Chinese just like to use TaiZu for name.
I don't think master Liao did Long Fist at all. Maybe his decendents have learn some Long Fist forms. Today, the young generation who learn our Long Fist forms are prabably two generations younger than me. When a form passed down by many generations and by different people, it changes. It can be so different that I have hard time to identify. That is why China has so many styles.

[Royal Dragon]

The tape I have is treasures of Taiwan, and not specifically his school, so maybe it's another school.

The Southern Tai Tzu is said to have descended from the Imerial family during the early Southern Sung dynasty to rapidy train troops in an effort to rebuild from the losses of the Northern Sung Empire. It was prevelant in Fujian as early as 1279 AD., and possibly as soon the 1130's

The Northern Long Fist was developed by the Emperor Chao Kuang Yin in 960 AD shortly after he took the throne and is a Long Fist style. It was originally a 32 move form, but it grew to become a form taught in 16-18 sections with each section being 32 to 64-72 moves in length. Today most branches teach it as 10 or mor individula emptyhand sets that are either numberd, or named, or both. Also, Tai Tzu Hong Chuan developed out of the imperial guards style of the time known as Hong Jia. At least that is what i have been able to peice together.

So basically, there are two distinct Tai Tzu styles, each with ties to the Sung dynasties Imperial family.

[Royal Dragon]

I know Liao WuChang. I saw him performed all the time when I grew up. He and my teacher are good friends.

Reply]
Interesting. I am looking for a form of his line nown as "Three Tangles" or "San Pan" I believe. It's suposed to be a twoman set. I have the drills derived from it, but not the set itself. I am interested in a possible video exchange if you know anyone who knows the set and would be willing to video tape themselves doing it from a few angles.

[YinYangDagger]

" It was originally a 32 move form "

RD - Does this original form still exist today?

[MasterKiller]

Are these VCDs #267 and #268 the complete 32-step form?

http://www.plumpub.com/sales/vcd/coll_taitzu.htm

[YinYangDagger]

nice find MK

[Robert Young]

Royal Dragon

> The Northern Long Fist was developed by the Emperor Chao
> Kuang Yin in 960 AD shortly after he took the throne and is a
> Long Fist style.
When Chinese refer to TaiZu, it means Song dynasty's Emperor Chao Kuang Yin. Wether it is southern or northern shaolin. From historical point of view. Chinese martial arts did not really evolve until Ming dynasty which is two dynasties later than Song dynasty. The peak of Chinese martial arts development was around end of Ming dynasty and the beginning of Ching dynasty. The thing is that Chinese seldom said they invented or created a style. So, people liked to refer to someone prominent or famous in history and call the name of what they practiced to someone much more famous than they were. That is why there are so many TaiZu this TaiZu that. That has to do with Chinese culture. Our Long Fist is a style that is very popular in northern China, especially in San Dong province where my GM Han grew up. The forms it covers are center around Cha, Hua, Hong, Pao, forms. Those are the four most famous empty hand forms in northern China. They are forms not styles, unlike what people think or hear today. Anyway, people like to hear good stories, even the stories were made up or wrongly put together. This may be disappointed to most people, including myself. But, ... .

> I am interested in a possible video exchange if you know
> anyone who knows the set and would be willing to video tape
> themselves doing it from a few angles.
Sorry I don't any video clips of master Liao's material. The best way to get what you want is to go to Taiwan and visit his sons and do the video yourself. They may already have the vedio clips already. That way you can have much better detail information. There is no better way than seeing by youself.

I has seen much more video clips of Taiwanese martial arts in US than in Taiwan actually. In the past, at least 20 years ago, Taiwanese was poor and the vedio recorder was expensive, only foreigers or the rich has the money to buy vedio recorder. Taiwanese martial artists were poor in general and could not afford to own vedio recorder in the past.

Cheers,

[Royal Dragon]

MK,
No tose VCD's are of the Sholin Tai Tzu Long form, and then only the first two sections. The shorter Shaolin Tai Tzu Chaung Chuan is "Suposed" to be the 32 move form of Chao Kuang Yin, but given that a thousand plus years have gone by, who really knows for sure. I have info somewhere that it was reacently passed to the Shaolin Temple from a family lineage, so it may be more authentic because of that.

As for styles, or forms called Tai Tzu, so far many of the histories are pretty consistant across more than one unrelated lines, so I do belive that the Southern Tai Tzu is what it is, and the Northern is also. However, 1000+ years has gone by, and I feel ALOT has been added to it.

Tai Tzu was in it's height during the Ming dynasty when it is said to have been taught widely to the military. Suposedly the descendents of the Sung dynasty had influance, and power during the Ming dynasty as well even though they were not the actual Imperial family. That may have had something to do with it.

Based on what I have seen, and heard over the years, I think it was defenetly developed in 960 ad by the Emperor Chao, Kuang Yin. It's most likely his personal mix of his Monkey and his Hong Jia from his days in the Imperial guard prior to becoming Emperor.

I also belive that it was perfected, and fully evolved during the Ming dynasty where it's evolution started to become so strong that many lines began to evolve into new styles. What we see today was perfected in the Ming abit started in the Sung and had several hundred years of evolution.