Genuine WC question from a WT student

[AdrianUK]

Hi All,

Last night I tried a local WC class and it was a beginners class. We were doing a changing guard drill, you advance your lead hand forward to contact then switch hands under pressure, fair enough. However I was told to keep my lead hand vertical to maintain strong structure, the example given being if someone tried to punch through the lead hand the structure would triangle off the blow. Ok thats fair enough but I wondered how it obeyed the principle of simultaneous attack and defense when the hand was locked in position, should the sifu have mentioned that the other hand would attack or have I missed something ? Also when doing lok sau the bong arm had the elbow well above the shoulder, is that standard as well ? The structure felt very weak not to mention uncomfortable, final thing I wondered on was having a bong sau explained as being a shape thrown in defence when you are not sure of the attack, not from receiving pressure against an arm. Are these standard WC methods or something to give beginners something to work from that is changed later ? I did not ask the sifu at the time as I thought it would be kind of disrespectfull (he knew I come from WT) but I couldn't quite figure the logic behind it

Respect

Adrian

[Miles Teg]

What do you mean by lead hand verticle?

[AdrianUK]

Miles,

I meant the man sau (front hand) was required to be perpendicular to the floor, like the rear (Wu) hand, with tension in the fingers to maintain a stiff structure, hope that makes it clearer

Regards,
Adrian

[kj]

If they are truly beginners, I wouldn't presume they have learned to bong sau correctly, wu sau correctly or much of anything else correctly, to merit such a drill. If the hypothesis holds, your observation of something wrong may be a consequence of the practitioners not really understanding or having yet acquired the requisite skills proportional to what they are doing, let alone the ability diagnose or reason clearly for themselves about appropriate application and how to practice for it. Just a thought.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[AdrianUK]

Kathy Jo

Thanks for the response, the bong sau I could put down to inexperience though it was not being corrected by the teacher, the man sau vertical with wrist tension was how I was told to do it by the instructor though. I am not assuming its wrong or anything I just wanted to know how it works and if its the common way of doing it in WC styles

Regards,
Adrian

[Neo]

Hi kj

The bong sau elbow higher than the shoulder is prevalent within the non WT based wing chun in the UK, from what I have seen, including Ip Chun, Simon Lau, James Sinclair lineages, etc. Having done those in the past, I now do the "WT version" if you want to call it that, and I find it makes more sense. Each to their own.

[Frank Exchange]

It is not prevalent within the WSL schools in the UK, and I think also Victor Kan.

In the WSL method, the bong is not typically used to not deal with head level attacks, more for chest and lowlevel.

I used to think that a lot of that way of doing things comes from Ip Chun, who is a little guy, and hence would commonly have to bong higher than average, hence the elbow rise.

But WSL was no giant either, and did things very differently, so that makes that theory a bit weaker.

[AdrianUK]

No one has a comment on the stiff vertical mun sau (front hand) ?

[Matrix]

Originally posted by AdrianUK
No one has a comment on the stiff vertical mun sau (front hand) ? Adrian, I'm assuming that you're asking the question becuause you feel that there's a problem. According to your profile you're not a beginner, so you know something does match your previous experience.

I must admit that I really don't understand stiff nature of the front hand. Tension at the fingers will inhibit your ability to feel the bridge until much later than desirable, IMO. I would prefer to see intent at the elbow, and certainly not tension. I'm not keen on the vertical nature of the front hand either, but maybe that's just me.

It's hard to comment based solely on your description, but that's what jumps out of at me. Objects in the mirror may be closer than they appear.

Bill

[black and blue]

Vertical man sau is something I have not seen when training at Kamon, and I figure if you are in Surrey then maybe it was a Kamon class you attended.

The Bong elbow (at Kamon) is above shoulder height... and I never liked it. The WT bong elbow position suited me more - but that said, I find Bong a weak movement in all cases and is itself is not easily used for "simultaneous attack and defence".

When sparring it can be utilised, but... I think there are always better options (but I've been influenced now by my Hsing-I training).

At Kamon, if that is where you went, I have never heard of Bong being used as a cover against an unknown attack! I have seen it used to meet an initial attack (again I didn't like this personally) and have seen the "shape" used as a cover against a hook when all else has gone wrong.

KJ writes:

"If they are truly beginners, I wouldn't presume they have learned to bong sau correctly, wu sau correctly or much of anything else correctly, to merit such a drill. If the hypothesis holds, your observation of something wrong may be a consequence of the practitioners not really understanding or having yet acquired the requisite skills proportional to what they are doing, let alone the ability diagnose or reason clearly for themselves about appropriate application and how to practice for it. Just a thought."

Errr... a rather long-winded thought, wouldn't you say? :rolleyes:

They lacked skill and correct understanding. There ya go, said in 6 words. And easy to understand words for muppets like me! ;) :)

[kj]

Originally posted by black and blue
"If they are truly beginners, I wouldn't presume they have learned to bong sau correctly, wu sau correctly or much of anything else correctly, to merit such a drill. If the hypothesis holds, your observation of something wrong may be a consequence of the practitioners not really understanding or having yet acquired the requisite skills proportional to what they are doing, let alone the ability diagnose or reason clearly for themselves about appropriate application and how to practice for it. Just a thought."

Errr... a rather long-winded thought, wouldn't you say? :rolleyes:


Sorry. Sleep deprivation does that to me. :(


They lacked skill and correct understanding. There ya go, said in 6 words.

Whew! Thanks! :)


And easy to understand words for muppets like me! ;) :)

You obviously managed. ;)

Regards,
- kj

[kj]

Originally posted by AdrianUK
No one has a comment on the stiff vertical mun sau (front hand) ?

My earlier comment was not specifically about techniques; I apologize for the confusion and verbosity. My main concern was about putting the cart before the horse in beginners’ training.

An offering to your “technique” questions, FWIW:


I am not acquainted with a "stiff vertical mun sau.” Perhaps there is some confusion. E.g., mun sau vs. wu sau (or something else).

The highest level at which I apply bong sau is with elbow just slightly at or above shoulder level (with shoulder down-down-down). I offer this with the caveat that other characteristics of the bong sau may be more offending than the height.


As always, mileage varies.

Again, just a hunch that the students "lacked skill and correct understanding." (Props to B&B.)

Regards,
- kj

[Whiplash]

At the school I used to attend we had a vertical mun sau. My sifu explained that it was naturally strong and stressed that we were to keep the fingers up and strong so they won't get punched first. I think he was implying that having the mun sau pointing towards the opponent would lend to that kind of opening.

[old jong]

You extend your Fook Sau and come back with Wu Sau. How is your Wu Sau?...Are your fingers pointing straight forward or up?...

[kj]

Hi Neo,


Originally posted by Neo
Hi kj

The bong sau elbow higher than the shoulder is prevalent within the non WT based wing chun in the UK, from what I have seen, including Ip Chun, Simon Lau, James Sinclair lineages, etc. Having done those in the past, I now do the "WT version" if you want to call it that, and I find it makes more sense. Each to their own.

Understood. FWIW, I first learned under a student of Simon Lau and Ip Chun. My present training approach is oriented in they way that Leung Sheung's taught. So I can validate and appreciate the differences you note.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[kj]

Hi Old Jong,


Originally posted by old jong
You extend your Fook Sau and come back with Wu Sau. How is your Wu Sau?...Are your fingers pointing straight forward or up?...

I tend to resist presuming too much about technical scenarios or others' training methods without the luxury of observing them directly. Nonetheless, I was struck by this same question.

Regards,
- kj

[Miles Teg]

I did some WT. But even the W.C I do now has the bong elbow being at least level with the shoulder. The difference with the W.T bong and the the bong I practice now is that in W.T the hand goes below the elbow almost 0n a 45 degree angle downwards with the hand straight and palm facing out wards. Now I do it with the forearm being paralel to the ground (not sloping downwards) and the fingers going in the direction of the oponent.

[Miles Teg]

I just practiced the way I did the WT bon sau and realized its no where near 45 degrees downward. Its just a slight downward angle with the hand still being a little below the elbow.

[AdrianUK]

Hi All

thanks for the replies, heres some responses to the issues raised so no one thinks its trolling

Reson I was at this other class was because they were offering escrima as part of the same instructors range and I Was thinking of combinig the 2 under one instructor so was checking the WC out

It was not a Kamon class

I think I have the terminology right saying the forward hand is the wu (spelling may be odd).

I raised the whole issue because to me as a beginner in WT (well 8 student grades in 4 years) it felt wrong and lacked the forward pressure I assumed was in all wing chun. I think whiplash matched the explanation I was given at the time, a stiff structure to deflect a strike. I was corrected by the instructor because I had my front hand angled about 45 degrees and relaxed, rear hand was vertical. As for the bong it was corrected to be elbow higher during lok sau(sic) and also demonstrated as "someone throws a punch / hand strike and I don't know what it is so I throw a bong sau forward", these were the only things that made me wonder about this class and I only asked to see whether this was a proven and tested method used across WC lineages

Thanks for the replies

Adrian

ps
Duncan, say "Hi" next time you get to Pauls !

[PQS]

I recently had the same experience, having attended a Kamon class I found it awkward trying to implemnt a higher Bong Sau than I was taught to use in WT:(
Also I got the impression at early stages the footwork is simpler although I have only been the once I intend to go back.
Regards
Peter

[black and blue]

Hi, Adrian.... yes, when I'm next back in the UK I'd like to meet Paul and chat. A few things about WT I want to talk about and I know he has an interest in internal stuff, so am keen to shot the breeze. Will say 'Hi' from you.

PQS, yes... the Kamon bong is very different than the one used in WT. Not necessarily to my liking (the former). The footwork is indeed much simpler. I'm guessing you'll also notice a difference in the 'rough and tumble'... in my experience Kamon was more "hands on" than the WT in the UK. A good thing and a bad thing at times.

;)

[PQS]

Duncan
does the Tan differ? as I got the impression that it didn't go into the centre line on SNT
regards
PQS

[black and blue]

Kamon method is Palm in center, elbow slightly off center. Kamon has a DVD produced from a SNT seminar - explains the reasoning behind this tan.

Duncan

[AdrianUK]

Black and Blue,

I meant say hi to me ! I am at Pauls every week !

Adrian

[black and blue]

Ahhhh.... :) .... I see! Hehehehe.

Yes, I will of course say Hi. I've stopped doing Chi Sau with the Wing Chunners I work out with (three different YM WCK lineages) and only spar with them, as the WC/WT/TWC shapes etc will hamper my Hsing-I.

But we could play a little Chi Sau when I'm back in the UK if you like. If you don't mind my asking, what organisation (WC) have you been visiting if it's not Kamon?

Cheers

Duncan

[AdrianUK]

Black and Blue,

I did not want to mention the lineage in case someone took it as a attack in some way, but since most people seem to have lost interest now it was James Sinclair lineage

Regards,
Adrian