Wing Chun best and worst.

[Ng Mui]

In your own honest opinion, what are a few strengths of the Wing Chun system?
Also what are weak points and how can we improve upon them?

[PaulH]

You should have changed your name and profile first before you ask this question. Just my honest opinion! He! He! =)

[Ng Mui]

PaulH
I'm not to old to learn, how about you?
There is some real insight out there.....sometimes.

Besides you can learn more by listening than talking, and by reading more than writing.

[sihing]

Strength's, so many to mention. Unbelievable combat strategy (protecting centerline, blindside theory, watching elbow/knees, non-telegraphic attacks, 5 stages of combat, etc....), unbelievable delivery system (power from short range, entry tech, chain punching, forward intention concepts). In my honest opinion, TWC is the perfect MA if applied perfectly. That's where the weakness is, can one perform it close to perfection. Well, to me perfect movement is simple and efficient movement, non-perfect is the opposite. What's easier to learn, simple and efficient movement or complex and unefficient movements? Although the movement may not be "natural", like anything it can be learned, and learned faster than unefficient movements. WC is all about scientific and logical movement and application. I read recently, from the Leader in a MA highly recognized (by Dan Inosanto) as very effective combat system, that the art doesn't let you down, YOU let YOU down. I tend to agree with that statement. If one learns WC and gets beat then it’s their individual fault not the arts. Just an opinion....

Sihing

[PaulH]

It's good to see that you are still alive, Abbess! Buddha always loves a cheerful learner! E\_ =)

[anerlich]

Weaknesses:

Clinch phase.
Groundfighting.
Egotism, lack of respect for other systems and what they can do to you - EVEN IF YOU KNOW WING CHUN/TWC/HFY....
Unwillingness to evolve.

Strengths:
If you don't know, do something else QUICK!

[hunt1]

Anerlich, agree with everything you listed but one. My wing chun is very strong in the clinch phase of a fight. Of course I only speak for what I was taught. Dont speak for any other versions.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Good Wing Chun doesn't need In-The-Clinch skills....

Good Wing Chun doesn't need Groundfighting skills...

Good Wing Chun doesn't need to Evolve...

Good Wing Chun doesn't need to Respect other systems...

All Good Wing Chun fighters need is a nice cheeseburger and fries after a two-hour chi sao session.

[Sifu Tony]

I think that it is not Wing Chun that is lacking, but the imagination of the person applying the system. It is important to examine all possibilities of the use of each tool. A friend of mine is a builder. I have seen him improvise and use tools in ways that I would have never thought of. But through his experience, he has found the need to do a specific job with the "Tools at hand" so he has found a way. I think it is the same with the Martial Arts. Also I believe that "What you train against, is just as important as what you train" If you have never crossed paths with a grappler, you will have no idea of how to modify your tools to work against grappling. The same could be said of facing a Western Boxer, Or Silat Trainee. If you get the chance to train against other methods, it can teach you more about how to apply your own chosen system.

[PaulH]

Strength:

Maximize winning chance by good use of speed, angles, powerpoint strikes, balance, and timing. And perhaps most famous its ability to adapt rapidly to changing conditions to seize initiatives for multi-strikes.

Weakness:

Its practitioners tend to look like Sammo Hung as they age! =)

[Matrix]

Originally posted by Sifu Tony
It is important to examine all possibilities of the use of each tool. I couldn't agree more. As the saying goes, ...." If the only tool you have is a hammer, all of your problems tend to look like nails."

Bill

[Vajramusti]

Paul H sez:
Weakness:

Its practitioners tend to look like Sammo Hung as they age! =)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hey Paul- easy now- while Sammo is no Chow Tze Chun look alike-he moved pretty well- when I saw him on a set in LA several years ago- he was filming in a restaurant at a street closed for the set for a liitle while. He rolled on the ground too and got up to "fight" again.

[PaulH]

"he moved pretty well- when I saw him on a set in LA several years ago- he was filming in a restaurant at a street closed for the set for a liitle while. He rolled on the ground too and got up to "fight" again. - Joy"

I stand corrected, Joy! It appears the barrel shape is quite useful for WC's ground fighting! 0\_

Cheers,
Paul

[Vajramusti]

Oh- Paul H. The barrel-that is where the chi is stored <g>.
And regarding the Sammo look: eventually with the good life-
as the poet Donne said- never ask for whom the bell tolls- it tolls for thee:-

But maybe Donne didnt know wing chun!

But you know 80% of fights end up on the ground. Someone has been counting. Darn it.

But you notice the related statistic- re people who get choked on the ground-90% are not barrel shaped!

And over 90% of people die lying down. Ergo always be up and about and be the true immortal!

[Matrix]

Originally posted by Vajramusti
But you know 80% of fights end up on the ground. Someone has been counting. Darn it.
83.76% of all quoted statistics are made up on the fly. ;)

Bill

[black and blue]

Good Points:

Lots of them already mentioned above, but to add one... is relatively quick to learn. The basics can be taken on board quickly and if trained realistically, applied without needing 20 years of study. (though studying them for 20 years is still a good thing ;) )

Bad Points:

The three mother techniques (as they've been called) Tan, Bong and Fook are too kind. In themselves do not damage, though they can (perhaps should?) disrupt balance etc.

Too many people teaching who are utterly useless. (Not exclusive to WC/WT/VT... but still, its a bad point).

Too much YM heroworship - gives people a funny view of the art.

Not as internal as it should be (YM WCK that is). In that sense it is lacking.

[Vajramusti]

Comments on post in brackets:

Bad Points:

The three mother techniques (as they've been called) Tan, Bong and Fook are too kind. In themselves do not damage, though they can (perhaps should?) disrupt balance etc.

((Uninformed-have to learn enough wing chun on whata complete wing chun motion consists of))

Too many people teaching who are utterly useless. (Not exclusive to WC/WT/VT... but still, its a bad point).
((Sure))

Too much YM heroworship - gives people a funny view of the art.

((Not a matter of hero worship. Respect for a giver and a gift
need not be out of date))

Not as internal as it should be (YM WCK that is). In that sense it is lacking

(( Contained by your own knowledge))

[Matrix]

Originally posted by black and blue
... is relatively quick to learn. The basics can be taken on board quickly and if trained realistically, applied without needing 20 years of study. B&B,

Relative to what? What time frame are you suggesting? 6 months? One year? Two? I'm only asking because, it has not been my experience that WC is "quick to learn". Certainly not compared to other MAs I've trained in...


Originally posted by black and blue
The three mother techniques (as they've been called) Tan, Bong and Fook are too kind. In themselves do not damage, though they can (perhaps should?) disrupt balance etc. Bong in particular can be quite disruptive. It's all in the timing with the footwork. The nature of Tan Sau is to feel the bridge. To tell you what your next move should be...... When used as part of Quan sau it can also be less than kind. Why do you want these hands to be other than what they are? Each hand is a tool in your arsenal. They serve to offer a wide range of purposes. Choose what you want to use. If you just want to go in with just chain punches, be my guest. Not that I would recommend it. ;)

Bill

[black and blue]

Hi Joy,

Are you saying your fook and bong, for example, attack muscle groups when used? Can you explain more if you have the time. I have not seen them used in this attacking manner, but would like to hear more. For example what muscle groups are attacked and how.

Can you also give some info on how your WCK is internal? Am very interested in this. I am sure your Sifu's work is indeed internal (he also practises Taiji, no?)... would be interested in how the WC on its own is internal. (Breath, Chi cultivation, expression, etc etc.)

Many thanks

Duncan

[black and blue]

Hi Matrix,

Relative to say, the Taiji I have seen where I train Hsing-I. Far quicker to grasp and apply. Perhaps this is a method of teaching. With the Taiji for example, the students will spend 3 months or so working nothing but standing post.

My Hsing-I has a quicker time frame for post training, but I (from the WCK I have seen) have not seen anyone teach and have students do nothing but YGKJM for 3+ months.

Agree bong can be distruptive... but still too kind ;) , Bong (as far as I'm aware) does not, in itself, cause considerable damage to the attacker's punching arm.

Same with Fook. Controls but doesn't destroy. Just a personal opinion on WCK's weakness. When using the WCK I knew against a Hsing-I chap when sparring, after inital attacks I had nothing left to attack with. My weapons were 'dead'.

Having not experienced this when sparring WC guys, I see it as a weakness of WCK (or perhaps to please Joy, a weakness of mine and all the others I saw/met/workout with from WC :) :p )

Duncan

[IRONMONK]

i thought the idea behind bui tze is to destroy your opponents weapons(more attack orientated compared to SNT/CK)

[black and blue]

Sure, but this is the third and final hand form to be learn't. Is this concept stressed for every encounter?

When you spar is this a part of what you aim for? To destroy the attacking limbs?

It can be done of course, but is it done? I have never been left with a dead, and useless arm after someone has used used bong or fook.

[Vajramusti]

Hi Duncan-
Takinga page out of Jim R's posts--- gotta run- honest- duries call.. but some brief comments--


Hi Joy,

Are you saying your fook and bong, for example, attack muscle groups when used? Can you explain more if you have the time. I have not seen them used in this attacking manner, but would like to hear more. For example what muscle groups are attacked and how.

((Learning the external motions of wing chun doesnt take long.
The rest of the works do. Fook, tan and bong are not techniques- they are mother motions for controlling and delivering different forms of power.))

Can you also give some info on how your WCK is internal? Am very interested in this. I am sure your Sifu's work is indeed internal (he also practises Taiji, no?)... would be interested in how the WC on its own is internal. (Breath, Chi cultivation, expression, etc etc.)

((Taiji is not the source of "internal"...internal is a natural phenomenon- in understanding it you can enter via the taiji gate or the wing chun gate. No one "owns" nature))Joy

Many thanks

Duncan

[Matrix]

Duncan,

It looks like we are both "victims" of our experience. ;)
My background is from harder styles like karate, kickboxing and TKD. So compared to Taiji, we're probably looking at things from different perspectives..... I think, on the surface WC can look like it's easier to learn. In fact the well is very deep, and for it to be truely effective it takes a long time. In this age of microwaves, and Instant Messaging many people just don't want to deal with that.

As for the distructiveness of bong sau, I still contend that it can be used to cause damage. As for Fook or Tan, where you see weakness I see strength. I think you've highlighted the potential problem in your statement "after inital attacks I had nothing left to attack with. My weapons were 'dead'." I don't understand that. :confused:

Bill

[black and blue]

Hi Joy,

Sure... kinda! :D Would like to hear more sometime. No one owns nature, but the three internal arts focus on internal dynamics (obviously). If your WCK does too, I am interested. You work dantien rotation, chi flow, expression, breathing techniques etc?

And also taking a leaf from Jim R's book... walk don't run, is more relaxing, hehehhe.

Matrix,

I mean when I attacked, as well as my opponent trying to punch me in the face, he, at the same time, attacked my attacking limb. Couldn't punch with it afterwards - hence it was dead. So while I could deal with his fist to my face, I was then left with two legs and one arm which I could use... everything in the seconds following that went pear-shaped and I took a royal ass kicking.

Wasn't a one off. When we sparred more the same thing happened, and when I kicked his defense was to attack my kicking leg (attacking muscle or knee joint or ankle joint. Much pain was delivered to my sorry English body, hehheehheeh.

[Matrix]

... everything in the seconds following that went pear-shaped and I took a royal ass kicking. Sorry to hear about that. I can make some comments, but without being there myself, I feel like some armchair quarterback. All I will say is that it does not sound like you had control of the centerline, therefore you had no opening for attacking when you did. You also need to take his balance - still must have center to do this - so that your opponent cannot launch his attack. There's not enough info in your post to say for sure, but that's what I'm reading into it. Sorry if I'm out of wack here.

Peace,
Bill

Oh yeah, and eat more salami. ;)

[CFT]

Duncan,

I'm a relative beginner in WC so what I say is just from personal and low-level (SNT/SLT) experience. I've been on the receiving end of some pretty painful blocks and other techniques during drills, e.g. pak sau, gaan sau, gum sau. Not debilitating at the time, but could well have been if it was for real.

I agree that bong and fook aren't limb destroying actions, but tan can be performed agressively though again you might not consider this limb destruction.

There are however quite a few techniques for joint destruction in WC aren't there? E.g. tok sau, side kick, etc.

I'd be interested to hear what kind of attacks the Hsing-I practitioner used against your arm in order to 'destroy' it. Regarding him intercepting your kick - it just sounds like what a competent WC practitioner would do.

So WC doesn't have the limb destruction attacks of Hsing-I or Muay Thai; is that really so bad? My impression of WC is that it does have a dual nature: it can be direct, forward and agressive - very hard and external; or it can be soft, yielding and controlling as demonstrated in bong, fook and huen sau. Just my impressions.

If you can incorporate both elements in your game, then I would say that a WC practitioner could give anyone a run for their money.

I agree with Joy about the 'internal/external' label. I'm really not convinced by any arguments I've read about the distinguishing features. AFAIK it really is all in the body mechanics, relaxation, etc. I'm not really convinced by the chi, dantien stuff.

If it worked then with no physical motion whatsoever, these internal practitioners should just be able to expel their chi and ward off a blow or execute an attack. Some may claim this ability, but I'd bet that they do twitch their muscles and shift their CoG.

I'm skeptical because the kind of breathing (sinking, floating, swallowing, spitting) that internalists describe seems similar to that advocated in Bak Mei if my memory serves me correctly - and that is an 'external style' last time I heard.

A bit rambling I'm afraid ...

[black and blue]

:) There was an opening... and then it closed.

As is always the case, is the person not the art... however, limb destruction became very apparent - exists in Hsing-I and, well, lets say is less so in WCK.

To be honest, I just find Hsing-I more brutal than WCK. Just my opinion. But that is why I started training it... it's a far nastier art.

Duncan

Ps. Dont. The sausages over here are so good that in my fridge I have what is fondly called "The meat container". Is huge, gets stocked up to bursting point and emptied in seconds. Is amazing I have been able to keep my Bruce Lee figure! :)

[black and blue]

Hi CFT,

Well, I don't want to start a "Hsing-I is better than WCK" string of posts, it is just "better for me".

But... they were deflections. Hard to explain, but they use a strong shape to deflect and wedge while at the same time the fist is propelled into muscle regions. For example, my first attack if I remember correctly, was kind of deflected and bounced with his forearm while his fist's knuckles pounded into my bicep.

Ouch! That was the response from people who saw my arm the next few days... Ouch! :)

Regarding internal work, you said: "I'm not really convinced by the chi, dantien stuff. If it worked then with no physical motion whatsoever, these internal practitioners should just be able to expel their chi and ward off a blow or execute an attack."

No physical motion?!?!?!!? But there is motion... the motion is on the inside! It's internal!

:) I have been hit D.AMN hard from zero distance with barely any external body motion. Nothing supernatural. But I know what you mean, until you've been hit hard by it (winded, knocked backwards from a stable stance etc, no one ever believes in the use of "internal energy" hehehhe).

Duncan

[Matrix]

Originally posted by black and blue
:) There was an opening... and then it closed. You need to create and control that opening, or find another.
Most martial arts have something of value, and I believe that it is the combination of the person and the art that's important. I also think that WC is far more brutal than your previous experience leads you to believe. However, I digress..... I'm glad that you enjoy Hsing-I.

Pass the mustard,

Bill

[Vajramusti]

Duncan-

I am glad that you enjoy your hsing I. One must feel comfortable with the martial arts they practice.

Wing chun is not for everyone IMO.

Some years ago before KFO we( some wc folks including me) went round and round with some taiji folks on internal works.
An exercise in futility- as egos get or got involved.

A great art (specially TCMA)- the more you go into it results in varying degrees of blending of internal and external. The starting points on the circle may vary art to art.

One of the barriers to serious discussions is the attempt tp generalize about all of wing chun based on one's own exposure.
That is the problem with some folks saying wing chun doesnt have this or that. More accurately, one should say- my wing chun doesnt have this or that.
Your view is shaped by Kammon etc- I dont know much about Kammon.

PS I dont use dantien in taiji style but the dantien and its usage is not a monopoly of taiji. hsing I and bagua. Breathing properly
and flowing are not limited to those 3 styles either.

Anecdotally- I forget the source- once after leaving PRC- Ip man to throw offa questioner reportedly and casually said- I do a little hsing I. :-

Joy

[Miles Teg]

I agree with Joy. You cant generalize W.C because there are so many interpretations. For example in my school we actually do attack limbs but only if they are in the way of our target i.e. the face or body. Part of our strategy is to crash through our oponents structure. We condition our forearms (I hear some gasping) so that we dont feel pain when hitting our oponents arms (despite what I have been told in other lineages, it doesnt affect sensitivity - only sensitivity to pain).
When I say attacking the limbs, I dont mean aiming for the limbs. The punch would look exactly the same if the oponents limbs werent there, but if the limbs are in the way our forearms go through them. Obviously when an oponent is strong or has a good structure, part of the skill is knowing when to go around and redirect. Coming from another W.C style originally, and encountering this strategy was unpleasant. My limbs couldnt take the pain and redirecting was impossible. To try and redirect was to always end up being on the back foot and moving backwards.

Another problem when talking about the hand motions in W.C is when we seperate them. "Bong is for this, fok is for that etc". They are not seperate moves or static positions. Really a fok isnt any different from a tan and both of them are often just transitory phases in a punch.

This Xing Yi guy sounds very impressive and Im sure it was a great experience for you. What part of the limb did he hit and how?

[black and blue]

Hi Joy,

I agree, internal work is not exclusive to the main three internal styles... but I have not seen any internal work in YM WCK. As you say, that may well be my experience only. My Wing Chun was with Kamon in the UK and WT in a few different countries.

From the WCK I have seen, travelling about and working in various places in Europe, I have yet to see YMWCK which I would say works internal elements. But having seen various lineages from YM's art, I think if "you" and your line sees your art as an internal one... then that is exceptional, not the norm.

Of course, I haven't met every WC practitioner in the world... but I believe a person shouldn't need to. While I admit someone with 20 or 30 years of WCK experience will know more than I do about the art, I firmly believe that you don't need to train the art for anywhere near that time to get a sound impression of the art. It might take a lifetime to master, but doesn't take a lifetime to understand what the art is.

In my opinion. ;)

For example, there are many people on this forum who have something to say about BJJ, or Taiji etc etc, but they have not studied them for half of their life - there exposure to these arts may have been minimal. But if you sit down with an expert and spend an few hours shooting the breeze, talking shop etc, you come away with knowledge.

If someone can illustrate to me "how" their YMWCK is internal, I am all ears. If you have the time Joy, I would love to read some "specifics".


Hi Miles,

He attacked the bicep, and also attacked the wrist joint. From the Hsing-I I have learnt the elbow joint is also struck. The rule seems to be "anywhere that will hurt like H.ell and is fairly easy to hit.... hit it."

There is an opportunity for me to study Chen Taiji. My Hsing-I instructor recommends it, says its a slower path than the Hsing-I but that slowness will aid the Hsing-I development. Interestingly, he doesn't see the three internal systems as seperate. Says all three are wonderfully connected.

I will study it too if I can dedicate the correct time to it.

[45degree fist]

WING CHUNS WEAKNESS

Too many people trying to defend wing chun rather than let wing chun defend them.

[Miles Teg]

Hi Duncan


"He attacked the bicep, and also attacked the wrist joint. From the Hsing-I I have learnt the elbow joint is also struck"


And how did he strike these places? Was it with a punch? Or did he use conditioned fingers or a phoenix eye or something like that?

[black and blue]

Just a simple punch, though in truth he used little punching motion as my attack was already taking my arm in. A bit like Blackadder's "Here's my fist, run into it" :D He does express jing at the point of contact though. Nice and compact - lots of result for minimal effort.

He often uses P Eye on Beng punch, but not when sparring as without pads it will cause serious injury, and with pads (full covering pads) there's no point.

But hey, I don't want to pollute this Wing Chun forum with too much Hsing-i :)


And Joy, still looking forward to hearing some specifics regarding your WCK being internal. ;)

[Vajramusti]

Black and blue Duncan sez:

And Joy, still looking forward to hearing some specifics regarding your WCK being internal.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Why?

Even though you really dont do much wing chun since Kammon you generalizea lot re wing chun. Yes/No? On net threads lots of folks just express their fixed ideas....why clutter smug clarities?

But FWIW re "internal"-the term has many meanings. First some arbitrary ones. One old biased usage- internal is Chinese supposedly Chinese. External is Buddhist- Shaolin--importation from elsewhere. Then you have north south bias- nanquan arts
dont quite make it by northern definitions. The arbitrary absolutist classification of intern and external is fairly recent 150 years or so-
only. So there are pontifications on how the big 3 taiji, hsing I and bagua are internal. A form of brainwashing.

But with a difeerent understanding- all great martial arts will blend the internal and the external. Taiji modified some nearby shaolin motions and then began to devlop its internal core... but later on adds heavy weapons and auxiliaries to develop strength.
There are are many different types of powers and jings and ways to develop them.
On wing chun- briefly... one can do wing chun externally, internally or a middle way.The middle way is my preference and practice.
Just in the slt alone---any one can within a shorttime learn the external motions of the slt. The internal takes longer- and there are lots of important details.Thats why the slt can be an intro form or an advanced form. A small micro motion wu can counter an advanced biu jee.
In the slt---the development of the understanding of the ground path, the coordinated geometries involved, the right joint alignments, the right ligament usage, the dan tien-s, the mind-the Yi, the eyes-mok lek, the sinking. the softness, the emptying,
the proper energy conservation principles, the breath flow, understanding different timings-not just speed and strength-
should complement the necessary but not sufficient IMO but more visible arrangements in the structure of slt. Without the former- the ygkym is a dead stance and wing chun can be worse than some karate and (gasp) some mma.

Vajramusti-Lightning Fist

Joy

www.tempewingchun.com


Back to your standard world view.

[PaulH]

Whatever happens to the thousand lightning fists pic. of you, Joy? Regarding internal vs. external power, Hendrik is right to point out that the distinction is misleading as the body is whole in nature. Gary would just say "damage" power and avoids the confusing term altogether when explaining to his students.

Thunder head,

Paul =)

[Miles Teg]

I think their is a distinction but it is very hard to classify.

I guess one way that I would measure it is by the degree in which you can overcome someones muscular force (not neccessarily through small joint manipulation or better body structure and supperior positioning), while maintaining relaxed muscles.

By that definition some wing chuns have and some dont.

[Vajramusti]

Paul- when I shifted to my own domain- it is a slow process to build up from ground zero- but better on the long run- no frill simplicity.

joy

[travelsbyknight]

Forget all that "not good in ground fighting, not good against choy li fut" crap.

The biggest problem I see with Wing chun is that most of its practicioners don't understand chi sao/sensitivity. They try to force their way through to the target instead of being soft. When they chi sao they just throw random shots and think that came from skill. They also try to stick at the wrong times and break off contact at the wrong times.



Inch power:
Let's dispell the myth. Anyone can learn to strike with inch power..but not everyone can apply it in a battle situation, only a stationary position.

[kj]

Two of the best things about Wing Chun are that a) even and I and my fellow wooden legged librarians can practice it, and b) continuously improve as a result of doing so. :)

Regards,
- kj

[KenWingJitsu]

When I say attacking the limbs, I dont mean aiming for the limbs. The punch would look exactly the same if the oponents limbs werent there, but if the limbs are in the way our forearms go through them.

I love this description....description of NOT CHASING HANDS!!! btw. :D

[black and blue]

Hi Joy,

Thanks for the reply. Regarding Kamon and me etc, I should point out I also spent a little time with the WT organisation... which was very different from Kamon.

Although my official (class) training is now in Hsing-i (and soon, Chen style Taiji), I regularly meet an ex-WT chap, an ex-TWC guy and a fellow who has trained in WSL WCK and Pan Nam WCK. I meet them to chat about WC, to discuss differences and applications, and to spar. Though I'm working hard to engage my Hsing-i, I am, of course, getting a better insight into WCK through my exposure to these guys.

Thanks for the internal info. On the surface, what you speak of sounds like my internal practise... and so sounds internal. :) But what I was after was some info (for my own personal interest) on how you cultivate Chi, how you direct it, how it is expressed, and how you use Chi Kung (Qigong) to facilitate the above.

While there are of course various interpretations of what "internal" means, I was meaning more from the above description.... Chi: How it is built up, moved, expressed etc. For example, you mentioned in your post the Dantien. How do you built Chi there in your WCK and what methods do you use to move it (dantien rotation?, for example).

I'm no longer 'training' WCK but still have an interest in it. ;)

Cheers,

Duncan

[Gangsterfist]

I think one of the biggest weaknesses of WCK, is realizing there actually are weaknesses. A lot of people get a crazy mindset with it.

From what I was taught wing chun is not internal nor is it external. Its is nuetral. It can draw its internal aspects from taiji. Taiji is in everything, its in every martial art. Thats why its the grand ultimate. There is a lot of wisdom to learn in taiji and in tui sao. A lot of wisdom that can transfer over to wing chun wisdom. This is how I was taught, that wing chun is nuetral, and can have hard and soft techniques when need be. Being neutral puts you in the most optimal position to execute whatever needs to be executed during combat. Since fighting is not an exact science and you will never have the same fight twice, being nuetal allows you to act upon the situation as need be. Reactions take too long sometimes, thats why you want to be in the most optimal position.

Just some thoughts...

[Vajramusti]

Duncan and Gangsterfist:

First- there is not just one way to be internal.

Second- The dantien is important in many things but taiji rotation and wing chun usage is different.

Third- taiji is northern in origin and historically has little to do with wing chun.

Of course in Chaos- evrything is related to everything else.

[black and blue]

Joy,

Indeed - lots of ways to cultivate the internal mechanisms.... but what is "your" way? That is what I was getting at.

I'm not dismissing that your WCK is internal (or has internal components), but I am interested to hear some specifics regarding what happens "on the inside".

Specifics about Chi cultivation (how you develop it), Chi movement (how you move it), and whether your WCK has a Chi Kung system to aid your use of the above.

What does A. Fong teach regarding this?

Thanks,

Duncan

[burnsypoo]

Originally posted by Gangsterfist

From what I was taught wing chun is not internal nor is it external. Its is nuetral. It can draw its internal aspects from taiji.

))) I would agree on the neutrality, but I don't think that it needs to draw it's internal aspects from anywhere. If another art helps one get more in tune with their body, then great.

Taiji is in everything, its in every martial art.

))) I disagree. If TaiJi is the truth, then the truth is in every martial art, not TaiJi.

A lot of wisdom that can transfer over to wing chun wisdom.
This is how I was taught, that wing chun is nuetral, and can have hard and soft techniques when need be. Being neutral puts you in the most optimal position to execute whatever needs to be executed during combat. Since fighting is not an exact science and you will never have the same fight twice, being nuetal allows you to act upon the situation as need be. Reactions take too long sometimes, thats why you want to be in the most optimal position.

))) Yes, so is it a question of whether TaiJi can help us train our Kungfu easier? Or whether TaiJi is needed to find Wing Chun these days?


Just some thoughts...

Thanks,
.eric.

[Vajramusti]

Duncan- I do not wish to get into inter lineage stance squabbles. ..
or comparisons with the wing chun-s you have moved away from as far as instruction and practice.

We stand and move all the time but not always with the best of motion and structure. Taiji has its own standing stake and related motions.

The ygkym from opening to closing when properly done with proper timing and structure is wing chun's standing stake and when the motions based on the structure are properly done the yi directs the motions.

Nature at work. Who teaches what is not the point. The proof is not by authority but by satisfactory(to the alert user-in this case me) results.

Wing chun is complete enough for me. But life is not limited to one's martial art. Given my background- I am satisfactorily familiar
with good supplements for living. Chi= prana= life.

Eric and Gangsterfist- if someone wants to do taiji that is their business. I do NOT think that taiji is needed for good wing chun.
Taiji structure and motions are different. And lots of waving hands taichi people do not know how to use their art ina martial way. Ditto for some wing chun folks too IMO....too stiff or too esoteric.

[burnsypoo]

Originally posted by Vajramusti
Eric and Gangsterfist- if someone wants to do taiji that is their business. I do NOT think that taiji is needed for good wing chun.


agreed

[Gangsterfist]

Agreed, wing chun training is all you need to be a good wing chunner. I just think you can draw good aspects and attributes from training any internal system, which can improve you as an over all martial artist.

As for wing chun, it could possibly put different perspectives on chi sao, or form work, but is not needed for great wing chun. Hard work and training hard in wing chun will make you good at wing chun. Looks like perhaps I just worded it wrong. Oh well, I am only human.

[Vajramusti]

No problem gangsterfist.