Does any one here Know anything about Sword fighting [Archive]

Shaolinlueb

07-13-2004, 01:37 PM

Originally posted by TheBlackDragons
Does anyone know what the best stlye is for Sword
Fighting like Kendo etc. ?

and no I'm not talking about 20guys and one girl
at a keg party,,,,,

how about 20 different masters versus one girl at a resteruant? and all she has is a sword called the jade dragon.?

norther practitioner

07-13-2004, 01:39 PM

Best for what?:o

Starchaser107

07-13-2004, 01:47 PM

green destiny , but who cares

i'd stick my sword right up h.......ahem* coff
excuse me

In answer to your quest, BDs:

I've heard it said that Japanese swordstyle is quite inferior to western methods (fencing) . I suppose really its up to your preferences, what type of swords are we talking about

broadswords, straightswords, rapiers what?

what sword are you drawn to, maybe that will help you identify a style , or system of fighting

maybe philippino styles?

TheBlackDragons

07-13-2004, 02:13 PM

Fencing is better than like Katana sword fighting ?

thats cool i was kinda wondering about fencing

though ,, I always liked the way Samuria sword looked

Starchaser107

07-13-2004, 02:15 PM

"though I always liked the look of Samuria swords"

who doesn't?:D

i prefer the look and feel of a chinese broadsword though..it's just comfortable to me , and it feels natural

and i guess that's the important thing.

David Jamieson

07-13-2004, 02:36 PM

imo, european style fencing will teach you more about how to actually fight with a sword.

cma will teach you a great deal of interesting techniques and different blade types and how they work.

jma frequently will teach you a lot of esoteric stuff about a blade and where to make precise cuts, but in aido, there is a one cut one kill mentality still and that is too high level for it to be useful in the immediate future.

But fencing is applied immediately and is a sportive undertaking.

Olympic fencing has degraded a lot in the past 20 years and this has more to do with the way the scoring system works and how people train to get optimum points as opposed to correct sword play techniques.

But you can learn a lot about how to use a sword by taking up fencing. The principles of foil, epee and sabre cover pretty much all the angles. And they map over to most bladed weapons including shorter knifes.

cheers

red5angel

07-13-2004, 02:40 PM

Best for what?

come on NP, for cutting up tin cans and still cutting up tomatoes afterwards!

The Willow Sword

07-13-2004, 02:40 PM

either take "fencing(local colleges shoudl offer informal classes in fencing) or you can go the better route, in my opinion and take "Kendo"(not many kendo schools in the usa) it is expensive to take as the uniform itself can range in the 1500-2500 dollar range(that includes protective gear and all.)

Fencing is the less expensive route and you will learn very linear "in line" techniques,,three different sword methods are used in fencing,,the "foil"(target area the torso and back of neck)
the sabre(target area upper body;including arms) and eppe' (target area everywhere on the body)

Kendo is much different and is more philosophical and focuses in the ways of bushido and zen,,,the tactics are very precise and i feel that Kendo is a better way to learn the sword anyway.

now if you are in to CMA and the straight sword (jian) then find a tai chi teacher who knows the sword form. but as will find out there are not many who actually practice tau chi sword techniques say like,,in fencing or kendo.

hahahah OR you could find your local chapter if the Society for Creative Anachronism and join thier little cult,,become a page and play medevil fantasy with them:rolleyes:

PEace,,,TWS

David Jamieson

07-13-2004, 02:56 PM

actually willow, I am of the opinion that some of the ren fest crowd who are into medieval martial arts (which is making a big resurgence) are actually pretty good with the big boy swords.

you might add also that:

foil= 4 sided bladed preferably used for thrusting techniques.

epee = 3 sided blade, also good for thrusting, but whipping as well.

sabre= 2 sides 1 edge. This is more of a "sword" and the techniques in sabre map over to big knife, machete, and other single edge weapons quite well. Get the hack and slash techs along with the flipping, drawing, rotation, thrusting etc etc.

Now, a gladius, that's a sword that is made for the common man and quick and messy kills...

I wish I had one :(

cheers

red5angel

07-13-2004, 03:04 PM

actually willow, I am of the opinion that some of the ren fest crowd who are into medieval martial arts (which is making a big resurgence) are actually pretty good with the big boy swords.

you must have a different type of renfestie then I have seen all over the US here. Frankly all of them pretty much suck the long one but think their gods gift to sword/stage fighting. I always cringe when those guys get together and start swinging their duct tape covered pvc pipes at each other. I"ve also completely given up on seeing any impressive moves on stage.

However, there are some pretty good fencers at the Minnesota fest, by pretty good I mean, they seem to be able to pop those balloons pretty easy and I have nothing else to compare against.

Stay away form the fukking SCA. Not only do those guys suck but they suck hard. Its a club for social rejects that can't figure out how to socialize well otherwise, unless their given a character to act out. Backwards mother fukkers, if I had a dollar for everyone of those idiots that argued with the bowyer I apprenticed out to, about his own craft! Actually if I just had an arrow for everyone I would have put it to good use.

The Willow Sword

07-13-2004, 03:08 PM

Stay away form the fukking SCA. Not only do those guys suck but they suck hard. Its a club for social rejects that can't figure out how to socialize well otherwise, unless their given a character to act out. Backwards mother fukkers, if I had a dollar for everyone of those idiots that argued with the bowyer I apprenticed out to, about his own craft! Actually if I just had an arrow for everyone I would have put it to good use.

hahahah i know what you mean bro,,all too well.:(

Peace,,TWS

David Jamieson

07-13-2004, 03:13 PM

The group that is growing here where I live is actually pretty decent. These guys really get into it and smash the heck out of each other.

They'll put on the mail and plate (to the tune of 50 or 60 extra pounds of metal hanging of em) and they will use genuine, allbeit somewhat blunted broadswords, mostly of the longsword variety such as a claymore.

anyway, yeah, a lot of renfesters are fantasists, but some of the medieval martial arts enthusiasts I have seen have clearly taken the time to study the arms and armour and are making real effort to revive these arts.

These ain't rapiers, they're freaking chopper deluxos! I have a claymore, it is heavy, I love it, but it is not practical for anything other than a workout.

Anyway, I caught them doing a demo at the ROM (royal ontario museum) and teh guys doing the intro were pretty handy with the big swords. It looked like a lot of fun...you know, for us martial arts types, not for the sissy types who brusie easily and cry a lot when they get a boo boo. (you know who you are you little pansies) lol

cheers

The Willow Sword

07-13-2004, 03:14 PM

Kung lek. we have a pretty big ren fest here in Texas. But the sword stage fights arent that great here. there is just alot of pomp and circumstance down here.

Although what is cool here are the guys who make the leather fantasy armour, i am friends with them and they are actually cool kats,,some of them are martial artists from the houston area and can throw down pretty well.

as far as a gladius is concerned,,yeah its a close in sword and pretty dangerous. if i had a choice of swords to carry on me i would probably have to go with a Katana(i know it is a typical answer to sword questions like "which one would YOU choose" but i believe that the katana is by far a superior weapon as swords go. Its either that or a scottish claymore,,hehehehe

Peace,,,TWS

red5angel

07-13-2004, 03:16 PM

TWS, is that TRF?

but some of the medieval martial arts enthusiasts

ah see, you didn't say that. I met a group of guys last year that do full metal, full contact fighting with vivking weapons and armor. They also set up a camp and re-enact viking life at that time. These guys are brutal and a hell of a lot of fun to watch.

Volcano Admim

07-13-2004, 06:29 PM

i like kendo, but there be a series of problems in it that will make me never train it

"The Problems with Kendo and japanese swordsmanship overall"
by me

1) dumb kiai - kiai is stupid and pointless, i hereby refuse to do kiai, kiai is retarded and NO it does NOT make anyone stronger, it just happens to hurt your vocal cords.
2) dumb traditionalisms - stupid clothes, stupid kneeling, stupid tiny rituals, stupid sheep-like behaviour, close mindness, bowing, serving.
3) very friggin expensive equipament, specially the armor.

Becca

07-14-2004, 12:01 AM

Originally posted by Starchaser107
I've heard it said that Japanese swordstyle is quite inferior to western methods (fencing) .
... You do realize that one style pimaralyy uses a cutting edge and the other doesn't, right?

You don't chop with a foil or rapier, you slash and jab. While you can also do this with a broadsward, it's main strength is in the chop. Not to mention the raw strength you have to have. Them puppies get heavy after a while! It would be very dificult to controll a weapon that heavy in a fine ballette of subtle moves accociated with the foil.

Fencing weapons were designed to be lighter but with good reach to be carried in combat by light infantry and officers on horse back. The heavier weapons were still there in western culture, but not as favored by the Spanish, English, or French. They were still carried by Celt and Germanic populations all the way up to the mid to late 19th century.

The Samuri were the ultimate authority figure in Japan as little as 100 years ago. Thier sward skills reflects this, as well as thier dedication to that way of life.

To beat a very scraggaly horse carcass, comparring the two is like comparring a Chevy and a Doge. It's kinda pointless to take sides in that tired old argument. Much better to go out and try it. Pick your own favorite, and train it till you know it front back... Any who. Have a good day, my break is over...

Volcano Admim

07-14-2004, 12:26 AM

alow the
volcano to add some words

i mean about
the use of fencing weapons
you mean the saber? the saber was used yeah
and there was the cavalry saber too

but the rapier
wasnt used on wars
its an urban, dueling weapon
its made for duels
and mainly
it pierces people

Becca

07-14-2004, 12:39 AM

You peirce or "poke at" an opponant using the jab, VA. The term has a slightly different meening in fencing than in boxing.

You can also use the lunge to accomplish this, but as both heavy and light sward styles use this technique, I didn't think it would be very effective in illistrating the differences.

Also, as you said, rapier-style weapon was an adaptation of the sabre, created by French officers who wished to carry a lighter, more elegant weapon in cavilian life. I don't believe the foil was ever carried in combat, either, but they were both developed by and for gentalmen who had used the sabre in combat, and tended to use these new weapons with the same fighting styles. Over time, the noble sport of fencing was crafted by the idle rich of Europe through a refinment of actual combat experience, duelling, and plain old showmanship.

Volcano Admim

07-14-2004, 01:28 AM

yeah

now,

"What is wrong with fencing"
by Volcano

1) tight clothes - this is very bad for heavy dudes like me
2) nowhere for me to train at - yeah its bad, but not as bad as tight clothes
3) sometimes it can be "too sporty", i mean, couldnt the weapons be a bit heavier for example? i mean, i dunno im just asking, cos heavier would be more real and make the rounds more apreciable for the audience (less fast, slow brain - normal people - can watch it and understand too!) and have some more cool moves you know what im trying to say... but i dunno if heavier weapons would be kinda dangerous... and pierce peoples stomachs and such...

Becca

07-14-2004, 02:23 AM

:D It is kind'a interesting how a good, solid sabre became a flimsy bit of steel, isn't it. They are a rather formatable and dangerous weapon in the hands of someone who has skill with it.

But you can "fence" with the heavier swords, since the modern version is more or less a fancy sparring session. The "tight cloths" are actually padding. A foil has no cutting edge, only a sharp point, which they blunt with that little ball looking thing- I forgrt the proper name.

Tapani

07-14-2004, 05:09 AM

Hi!

Having done modern fencing for a couple of years, I have to comment, that at least epee(is that the english way of writing the name?) is a pretty serius weapon. I mean, if the sword would be sharp, you could definitely do some heavy damage with it. Even with padding the competition epee will bruise you almost every time you get hit. And I'm not so sure if the weapons were that much heavier earlier. Well maybe the sabre, but not the others.

Also, check this page up:

http://www.swordschool.com/

I saw these guys once in Helsinki, and they are pretty serious about what they do. The techinuques they do look really effective too. I'm not sure if you can find something like this elsewhere, propably you could at least here in Europe, as the guy teaching is from England.

Also, I remember reading a pretty in-depth analysis of the differences between japanese and western swordplay. I will look up the link as soon as I get home.

Cheers!

Tapani

Becca

07-14-2004, 05:51 AM

Cool.:cool: I'm going of knowledge I once knew by hart but haven't activly studies in a few years. I alwasy enjoy a site that well organized.

red5angel

07-14-2004, 07:07 AM

1) dumb kiai - kiai is stupid and pointless, i hereby refuse to do kiai, kiai is retarded and NO it does NOT make anyone stronger, it just happens to hurt your vocal cords.

spoken like a westerner!

Starchaser107

07-14-2004, 07:12 AM

"... You do realize that one style pimaralyy uses a cutting edge and the other doesn't, right? "

...

was that really necessary?

:cool:

...

peace

Volcano Admim

07-14-2004, 09:58 PM

well i cant help but be a westerner... or marcian

but hey the kiais
you never see my rising my voice on real life
my voice is the type low volume and soft

i hate to rise it and i refuse to rise and put power behind my voice
its very unnatural for me to scream

in fact
i might only have screamed
like 10 times my whole life or some

so kiai would be nothing but painful for me
and like i said, i doesnt make you hit harder in truth

in fact i speak (or scream) so few that in the
few times in my school life where i had to verbally
explain something while presenting something for say more than 30 mins, my throat hurts and stuff
cos i am very silent individual who is not used to make
oral sounds you know

Becca

07-15-2004, 12:33 AM

Originally posted by Starchaser107
"... You do realize that one style pimaralyy uses a cutting edge and the other doesn't, right? "

...

was that really necessary?

:cool:

...

peace
No, probably not. I was tired and cranky last night and that kind of statment usually annoyes me, but that doesn't excuse me being rude. I'm sorry I offended you.:(

Volcano Admim

07-15-2004, 01:46 AM

"Things i wanted to ask Becca"

1) Is your name Rebeca, Rebecca or just Becca?
2) In case its Becca, do you intend on naming your daughter Re-Becca?
3) Pizzing dogs rule, dont they?

Becca

07-15-2004, 01:59 AM

That's good! :D I'd heared that pun for other names but not Re-becca before. And my name is really is Rebecca, but I also go by Becca.

red5angel

07-15-2004, 10:38 AM

so kiai would be nothing but painful for me

It can however have a psychological effect, and is actually something I would encourage if one was teaching self defense. The more noise you make the better.

Volcano Admim

07-15-2004, 04:03 PM

please...
scared screaming is for scared girls

Starchaser107

07-15-2004, 04:16 PM

theres nothing cowardly about kia or sai or tma sounding
which would be more accurately described as a loud and direct projection of sound specifically for the purposes of improving striking power or blocking power through breathing
and as r5 said the psychological effect of unnerving ones opponent.
its not screaming if someone screams it .its done wrong.
sounds come from the dantien not the throat.

and becca ..it's all good no probs,
perhaps one of these days while i'm here i can come by and check out your school?

Starchaser107

07-15-2004, 04:32 PM

bring back xebby

Yum Cha

07-15-2004, 05:26 PM

Great book:

By the Sword: A history of Gladiators, Musketeers, Samurai, Swashbucklers and Olympic champions. By Richard Cohen

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0375504176/qid=1089936868/sr=8-1/ref=pd_ka_1/104-0241403-7739136?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

It's exceptional concerning western swordsmanship, but a little weak, yet still informative, on Asian.

It has something to offer the martial artist in that it addresses the issue and psychology of the duel, which after all, covers more than swordplay. Psychologically, the one touch, one kill philosophy is something that can apply to empty handed combat as well.

I think a lot of sword play comes down to the poking or slashing styles, delicate or brutal - antiseptic or bloody.

Me, I like the Dao, and it maps across to the Cricket (or baseball) bat, walking cane or machete. Re-bar even....

FWIW.

TheBlackDragons

07-15-2004, 06:36 PM

Becca Your so Knowledgeable about sword fighting

I think i'm falling in love

PLease Don't kill me with your Katana :)

Becca

07-15-2004, 11:43 PM

Originally posted by Starchaser107
and becca ..it's all good no probs,
perhaps one of these days while i'm here i can come by and check out your school?

When you getting back from vacation? Sifu is holding one of his fund raising demo/seminars Saturday, July 31st. I highly recommend it. He usually teaches a non-curiculum form unique to our style.