had some thoughts last night

[red5angel]

yeah, imagine that, me thinking....

anyway, would you consider these truths of the martial arts:

1. The most important variables in a conflict are the fighters.

2. No art is complete.

3. Any style can be used effectively - it's not the style, it's the person using it.

[Chang Style Novice]

Hi, KKM.

[Ray Pina]

Definitely yes to 1 and 2.

Not necessairly No. 3 when you take into account No. 1.

[Oso]

ok, this is just a general observation, though spurred by your post red5, so don't take it too personal.


Sometimes, I think you guys try to think to much about all of this.

[SPJ]

Good post.

Agreed to all.

All styles have their "unique" solutions to common fighting problems.

The practitioner has to practice well to make any technique work.

You win by outsmart, out maneuver and out skill your opponent.

And yes exactly in that order.

Assume both of you practice the same style, it holds true.


:cool:

[Shaolinlueb]

:dunno: sounds good to me.

[red5angel]

Oso, no offense taken, I was driving home from class last night and some random thoughts were sorting themselves out in my head.

[Oso]

red5, good. I just wonder sometimes how many times this subject can be discussed.

I thought we all agreed a while ago that it boiled down to hard work(pure physical training/conditioning to toughen/strengthen the body), live training, fighting then returning to the first couple of steps with lessons learned from the last.

[red5angel]

it comes up from time to time but it seems like everytime it does, some things change or some interesting viewpoints are elicited.
besides that, some of us have just been on this forum to see almost all these subjects a few times over. I try to keep that in perspective as well.

[Oso]

hehe, just thought of something while writing that last one...is it me or are there much fewer newbies these days?

[norther practitioner]

Their scrrrrrrrd of big old polar ant eaters like you bro...

[MasterKiller]

Actually, we have a lot of noobs post, but they are apparently all the same guy.

[yenhoi]

I think red's problem is that he doesnt think enough.

:cool:

[red5angel]

that's because I'm too busy giving it to your mom yenhoi :D


not a whole lot of noobs these days cause they all seem to have some sort of mental deficiency that precludes them from playing nice with us. Either that are we're all just getting old and crotchety.

[Water Dragon]

Actually, I don't believe that it's the style or the person anymore. I believe it's the school.

After all, it's the individual school that you will be training at and the people in your school that you will be training with.

That's why 2 schools from the same style can be so different.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by Water Dragon
Actually, I don't believe that it's the style or the person anymore. I believe it's the school.

After all, it's the individual school that you will be training at and the people in your school that you will be training with.

That's why 2 schools from the same style can be so different. Word.

[Oso]

lol at np...

I think of it more as an animated bear fetish versus an animated polar bear....


WD, that means it's still the people in the school that make the difference. A school just being a collection of people doing the same thing, mostly...........


wait


stop


not


getting


sucked


into


this


redundant


discussion.................

[Meat Shake]

"I believe it's the school. "

"I thought we all agreed a while ago that it boiled down to hard work(pure physical training/conditioning to toughen/strengthen the body), live training, fighting then returning to the first couple of steps with lessons learned from the last."


The two of these statements are correct.

[red5angel]

That's why 2 schools from the same style can be so different.


nah, you can have a bad school and have good students anyway. You can also have a good school and have bad students.

[Chang Style Novice]

Originally posted by red5angel
nah, you can have a bad school and have good students anyway. You can also have a good school and have bad students.

Whaaaa?

I don't think I understand what you mean by good/bad students and good/bad school here. I suppose a school with poor instruction might possibly have a good fighter or two who get by on sheer natural ability, and a school with quality instruction might have a few students who are just untalented and/or lazy, but...

Doesn't the quality of fighter a school produces pretty much determine whether or not its any good? If not, what IS the purpose of an MA school?

[Water Dragon]

lol, I was gonna ask that too. If the fighters coming out of the school are bad, how can the school be good? and vice-versa.

I really hope you're not trying to argue that if a school has 20 bad fighters and 2 good fighters that it is a good school.

That's called an exception to the rule that proves the rule

Oso, by "school" I'm referring to the actual training going on. It's more of a mix of the students, curriculum, coaches, etc. Mebbe the "formula" that is unique to each school?

[SevenStar]

I agree with 2, but not 1 or 3.

WD has gone to a good school, trained hard and mauled the correct because it goes to a bad school.

[red5angel]

a good school, will indeed produce a quantitiy of better fighters that is larger then a bad school. I never said that the school had nothing to do with it, I just think it's a smal part of the pie. There are quite a few really good fighters out there who don't go to any school, or do any sort of training but starting fights.


That's called an exception to the rule that proves the rule

again, bzzzzt, that's too easy to claim that those fighters are an exception to the rule and so therefore proves only good schools produce good fighters.

[Water Dragon]

If the idea is to find a place where you can become a good fighter, you tend to go with the averages.

I'm sure that you can point out numerous examples of people who went to small unranked colleges and became successful. That doesn't make those schools better than Yale.

[Oso]

Oso, by "school" I'm referring to the actual training going on. It's more of a mix of the students, curriculum, coaches, etc. Mebbe the "formula" that is unique to each school?

'formula' sounds good.


but two words are being used interchangeably on this thread and they don't always mean the same thing.

[red5angel]

I'm sure that you can point out numerous examples of people who went to small unranked colleges and became successful. That doesn't make those schools better than Yale.


sure, and not everyone can go to yale. from what I understand you have to be a "good" student to go to that sort of school.

[Water Dragon]

True, but people do flunk out of Yale every year. That doesn't make Yale a bad school.

[red5angel]

True, but people do flunk out of Yale every year. That doesn't make Yale a bad school.


Thats true as well but the standards are set higher for the better students. Those students aren't flunking out because of the school but because of their inability to keep up or their inability to adapt to the environment.

[Oso]

Yale called and wants it's metaphor back.

[Chang Style Novice]

Originally posted by red5angel
Thats true as well but the standards are set higher for the better students. Those students aren't flunking out because of the school but because of their inability to keep up or their inability to adapt to the environment. And the result - an elite environment retains elite students! Like we've been saying, a good school has good students.

[3rdrateIMAkilla]

WHat age you started.

And the purity and acient lineage of your style(s).

But most importantly the school.

[Chang Style Novice]

Originally posted by 3rdrateIMAkilla
and the purity and acient lineage of your style(s). You're giving me the giggles.

[Water Dragon]

Originally posted by Chang Style Novice
You're giving me the giggles.

And I got the $hits!




Get it?





$hits and giggles?











Oh nevermind

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

seven .... i can see your point with "any art can be made to work" (i see both side of the fence on that one), but what's more important than the fighters?

[Water Dragon]

1. The most important variables in a conflict are the fighters.

To me, the most important variable is circumstance.

Are we in a bar? Am I drunk? Is he? Do I have my boys with me? Does he? What about weapons? Does this dude train? What does this guy really want from me anyway? How dangerous is he? etc. ?

These are all things you cannot control.

2. No art is complete.

True but...

A school can be very complete indeed. It is not uncommon for MMA schools to teach Muay Thai, BJJ, and wrestling as both seperate arts AND as a unified whole.

The traditional systems are a little different because at the time, there was no free sharing of information. Take advantage of that! It's just a good idea to understand that when evaluating both the strengths and weaknesses of what you do.

This isn't too much of an issue with me because it can be overcome easily enough.

3. Any style can be used effectively - it's not the style, it's the person using it.

This is what we've been discussing.

That's my $ .86

[Toby]

And a valuable 86c it is. Nice post.

Anyway, on the whole good school/bad students thing - I like to consider my school a good one. But we have bad students. When I train with some, there's nothing there. No resistance, no effort, no intent. If I really wanted to, I could go straight through them. But it seems really difficult to get them to change. Here's an example - a young guy, about 13 or 14 who was my senior when I started but progresses slowly so now he trains with my little group. His skills are deficient, to put it nicely. I'm sure when he reaches my age he'll be good with the head start he has, but right now I don't like training with him because neither of us gets anything out of it. On a better note, the senior ranks seem to have weeded out most people who aren't committed. There are still some that obviously apply themselves better than others, but the majority are skilled fighters and hard nuts.

Another point is something one of the teachers once told me - if he tells you something and you don't get it but are obviously making an effort he'll keep trying to teach you. But if he says something and you ignore it, he'll try one more time. If you keep ignoring it, he'll concentrate on the other student who's making the effort. So it may kind of polarise the good student/bad student thing a big, rather than lots of average students.

[Volcano Admim]

yeah i have some thoughts too

the kantele wasnt really created by them gods, like the legends say


"Truly they lie, they talk utter nonsense
Who say that music reckon that the kantele
Was fashioned by a god
Out of a great pike's shoulders
From a water-dog's hooked bones:
It was made from the grief
Moulded from sorrow

Its belly out of hard days
Its soundboard from endless woes
Its strings gathered from torments
And its pegs from other ills

So it will not play, will not rejoice at all
Music will not play to please
Give off the right sort of joy
For it was fashioned from cares
Moulded from sorrow."

[Becca]

Originally posted by red5angel
nah, you can have a bad school and have good students anyway. You can also have a good school and have bad students.
You can also have 2 good schools that seem the same and put out great students, but the technique may be used differently by students of each.

Last year I had the opportunity to visit a Pai Lum school in California. Same coriculum, same techniques, forms, drills. Even the decore was almost the same. But it felt different. Even between the 4 Pai Lum qwoons here in Colorado, it feels just a bit different.

Having said that... I believe a bad school will only hinder you if you expect to have every step of you development handed to you. If you tack the inisiative to better yourself, you can make the technique work. But this is more of the "hard work" principle, not in and of itself.

[ShaolinTiger00]

3. Any style can be used effectively - it's not the style, it's the person using it.

I must respectfully disagree.

A well written article on the subject. (http://www.realfighting.com/0702/danaherframe.html)

[Becca]

Stupid firewall!:mad: It won't let me see 2/3ds of the stuff you guys link too.

[red5angel]

I must respectfully disagree.


and yet, still so wrong. ;)

I can agree taht some styles are more efficient then others, but you can take a flowery showy style, and give it to a guy who is going to train hard and long, and put him up against say your average guy doing the more efficient style and watch the latter get his ass handed to him on a silver platter.


waterdragon, good point on variables, I don't agree that it is necessarily the most important overall but that it CAN be the most important in any given situation.

[Ray Pina]

In all my years of study I have yet to run across this gifted fighter, who somehow, in light of all his inborn and learned fighting instincts, began to backhand spring, cartwheel, spin jump kick or tornado kick his way to victory against a so so boxer who simply chose to maintain a good solid structure and duke it out.

[red5angel]

I"ve seen two street fights that I can remember that had martial artists in them, in both instances both TKD fighters won. The first was a thin woman who beat a high school wrestler, the second was a korean guy, outweighed by his opponent by around 100lbs or more.


began to backhand spring, cartwheel, spin jump kick or tornado kick his way to victory

one of these days you might be surprised.

[3rdrateIMAkilla]

Royce Gracie proved it, MA could be really fun without all the be the best MMA you can be ****, and just say MA dominates on weightlifters. Royce rules.

Exploiting holes, and winning easily, is always more satifying than a close evenly matched battle, where the difference between win/loss is a small difference.

[norther practitioner]

spin jump kick or tornado kick his way to victory against a so so boxer who simply chose to maintain a good solid structure and duke it out.


Middle weight fighter in a local kickboxing tournie... tae kwon do dude, did nothing but high kicks.. koed some dude in the second round during the finals with a spin kick.

Light weight division, same night, boxer got set up by a spin side kick for the tko.

Not that this happens all the time..

Street fight, kung fu guy (like 20 some years experience) 5'5" prob. around 160 and cut, against some 5'11" 200 lber... They square off, dude throws a few punches, none of which are too wild, kung fu guy jump spin outside crecent after a feint and catches him up side his head, dude drops (to one knee, puts up hands like he doesn't care that his beer got spilled any more), fight over.

Or that.

Just that it can.

Not why I train it, but still.

[Oso]

:D

landed a spin kick on a 225 pounder in the sport jj nationals last year...caught him pretty good in the midsection...he grunted and I got set back from the recoil...could be I just got a ***** spin kick...decided ippons were easier to get and more effective on that particular dude.

[Meat Shake]

"The most important variables in a conflict are the fighters.

To me, the most important variable is circumstance."

The most important variable is an opinion. Just like a most important technique or range.

"I can agree taht some styles are more efficient then others, but you can take a flowery showy style, and give it to a guy who is going to train hard and long, and put him up against say your average guy doing the more efficient style and watch the latter get his ass handed to him on a silver platter."

Patty cake and chi blasts. Just another uncertain scenario.

In a full contact fight (be it street or tournament), there are just about no definates. The little martial art knowing dude may win today, then get stomped by someone "untrained" and half his size the next day by a lucky punch. A lot of theories are being stated as fact...

[Ray Pina]

Anything can happen. With that said, I aproach fighting like a stingy old man gambler.... I try to set all the odds in my favor. I find being balanced on one leg, or on one hand (as in the capoeria being discussed yesterday) to be disadvantages.

Yes, sometimes the lucky rolls happens. Like I said a week or two ago, I've seen a lot of things. I've had a trout jump out of the water and take my fly in the air on the back cast! I haven't started fishing backwards though because of it.

[Meat Shake]

I was in the ocean a couple weeks ago and hard a fish jump out and bounce off my face.

[Oso]

I got stung by a wasp yesterday.

[Chang Style Novice]

I ate a fish yesterday.

[Meat Shake]

I hate wasps. And most seafood.
Both are responsible for many deaths annually... I think Im going to start a propoganda commercial about fish and wasps and how we must stop the problem before its too late.
...
And Ill only air it to the easily manipulated alsheimers suffering geriatrich community.

[Oso]

...or the WC forum.....

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

Originally posted by ShaolinTiger00
I must respectfully disagree.

A well written article on the subject. (http://www.realfighting.com/0702/danaherframe.html)

i agree that it is very well written, but he asumes that no traditionalists actually spar. yes, he said there are always exceptions and yes i understand it's a general rule, but there are more than a handful of traditional schools out there that spar medium and full contact. there have been plenty of schools that were never so naive to have ever ignored the improtance of sparring, and as mma becomes more popular some of those that were naive are now opening their eyes.

all of that said i do feel that mma training is more efficient and will often produce better fighters. however i feel the gap would be vastly reduced if it were possible to filter out those of us who have always sparred and compare apples to apples. i feel that mma would still hold some dominance as they focus strictly on fighting while tma has more going on (and it's completely up to each individual if that's a good or bad thing).

[edited for spelling naive .. still not sure its right but too lazy to spell check]

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by red5angel
yeah, imagine that, me thinking....

anyway, would you consider these truths of the martial arts:

1. The most important variables in a conflict are the fighters.

2. No art is complete.

3. Any style can be used effectively - it's not the style, it's the person using it.

agree on all accounts...............emphatically even ;)

[HiddenShadow]

I definatly agree with #1 and #2. As for #3, I fully agree that any style can be used effectivly, but someone in a "fancier style" (for lack of a better term) may not be as effictive with each hit, and may worry too much about performing well in their style. Where some other styles are more to the point and worry about ending the fight with one or two hits and less about how their style will look. Im not saying that one style is definatly better than the other, the fight would all depend on the situation, the opponnent's body type and style of fighting, and the surrounding surfaces (street fight or the like). Some styles are better for high flying kicks and others are better at low stance attacks like snake styles. Different styles would work better on different opponents, IMO.


By the way, my name is Chris and, if you didn't already notice, Im new to this forum. I look forward to learning from and with all of you on here :)

[Toby]

Originally posted by HiddenShadow
By the way, my name is Chris and, if you didn't already notice, Im new to this forum. I look forward to learning from and with all of you on here :) Run, Chris, run while you still can! :eek:










Welcome ;).

[scotty1]

I wrote this yesterday but couldn't post it, and it's irrelevant now because GDA said the same thing in a much shorter way, but I'm going to post it becuase it took me ages to write.

I also agree that the style plays a large part in an outcome.

But it also ****es me off that people assume TMA = non-realistic sparring, if any at all.

That's a pretty good article though, and makes some really good points.

However he does generalise TMArtists as non-sparring, kind, gentle, badly-conditioned folks.

So his conclusion based on that opinion of TMA is pretty conclusive - and rightly so, I'm sure a lot of TMA schools are that ineffective.

But if I can take his reasons for the superiority of combat sports and apply them to my tai chi, which is obviously a TMA, then that kind of knackers his argument a bit.

In quotes are his reasons for combat sports being effective, or TMA being rubbish.

BTW. I was actually going to train MMA before I started TCC, it just so happened that I found a TCC instructor that could give me everything I wanted (bar ground fighting) before I found a MMA school, so I'm not a hater. :D

"These allow students to train at something close to full power with the same techniques and strategy that they will use in real combat."

Check. Full contact sparring. SanShou with boxing gloves, heavy contact, gross motor movements, and full contact wrestling using smaller MMA style gloves with strikes.

"a superior fighting style will have as few restrictions upon technique as possible."

Check. OK we don't do groundfighting on a regular basis. But we do a lot of standing grappling, which he gives a lot of importance to. So that's boxing, some kicking, clinchwork and throws covered. Anything that works, works, as longs as you're not going force against force.

"This is the mistake made by traditional martial arts. By allowing and indeed, emphasizing, techniques (such as eye gouging, biting, groin attacks etc.) that cannot be made part of safe everyday training, they made live sparring and competition impossible and were thus limited to kata as the primary training method."

Quite simply not the case. Live sparring and competition are not impossible because those "too deadly" techniques are not emphasised for those very reasons. They're treated as options to be aware of, in the same way I'm sure they are for MMA people when discussing self-defense.

"A really effective fighting style is one that can find a satisfactory compromise between the demand for fewer restrictions on technique and the demand for adequate safety to allow full power training and competition."

Check, detailed above.

"The ethos that is cultivated is improvement through hard physical work."

Check. I've argued before on here for the need for a well conditoned strong body to be able to apply TCC effectively.

"We saw earlier that the most effective styles are those that are based around combat sports, rather than traditional martial arts."

Disagree, see above.

"This is due to the fact that they allow students to practice their techniques in very nearly the same way they will apply it in a real fight. "

As does our group, which is why I disagree with the above generalised conclusion.

In conclusion, he states:

"There must be enough restrictions to allow safe live training at full power, but not so many that combat effectiveness is diminished."

I agree.

So as far as his argument goes, I agree, I just think that it's founded on a premise of what TMA is the majority of the time, and not what it can be if you find a good instructor.

[Becca]

Check. I've argued before on here for the need for a well conditoned strong body to be able to apply TCC effectively
I once got a tkd guy to admit that the only thing he based his negatives on (about Tai Chi) was the amount of "old fat guys" he saw in the biginner classes. He also admitted that he had never looked any ****her to see if the school in question A) only taught the health aspects or if it was just that class. (most good teachers keep them separate for obvious reasons) B) he had never followed up to see how many contunued into the more advanced classes, and C) how many of those who did were still "fat" when they got there.


"This is the mistake made by traditional martial arts. By allowing and indeed, emphasizing, techniques (such as eye gouging, biting, groin attacks etc.) that cannot be made part of safe everyday training, they made live sparring and competition impossible and were thus limited to kata as the primary training method."
I have used, and have had used on me, every technique I have learned so far. You just don't use enough force to maim.:rolleyes: That's what is called controlled sparring. I.e. you don't aim for the eyes, you aim for the forehead. Instead of the groin you aim for the upper, inner thiegh, ect... Any gouges to other places you get full force, though.:D

[Ray Pina]

You must really trust your training partners.

[red5angel]

I find

Thats a key statement e-fist

[Ray Pina]

Absolutely! Of course.

However, there is a lot of blood, sweat and tears associated with that, "I find."

It is easy for practioners though, to start down a path, say fighting on one hand, and say that path is just as efficient, just as likely to produce victory in a violent altercation as say, figthing while stabalized by one's two feet. They may say it's up the the person.

TO ME, this is not unlike saying it is just as feasible to type this sentence using my toes as it is to use my fingers. Surely with practice it could be done. And if someone practices typing with their toes for 10 hours a day for 5 years while I bind my fingers in finger shackles, maybe they could type this paragraph quicker than me.

I recently saw footage of a man with no arms fishing with his feet. Not only casting the rod, but baiting his own hook! Want to try it?

I certainly encourage free expression and experimentation -- I love art -- but when it comes to real fighting, I believe the first argument has to be with oneself and it should be an honest one.

Is one seeking function or form? Don't argue a Mona Lisa into being a toilet seat. Don't argue a toilet seat into being a Mona Lisa.

[TheBlackDragons]

I think the best style , Is just what ever works best for The individual. Find and use your strong points to your advantage . Even if your art Requries fighting on your feet against a submission fighter , You just have to exploit his weakness If your skilled enough and never make it to the ground then you can defeat any submission fighter.

and if you only have 2 arms and no legs it's pointless to learn how to kick


If you are blind ,then just stick with wing chun
or spm, styles that are heavily based on senestivity training
so sight will not stop you completely


If your insane and reatarded just use your supere human
strength and reatard scream

If you have no style just use a gun ,,to scare or injure

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

and if you only have 2 arms and no legs it's pointless to learn how to kick

best troll yet bds ... keep up the good work!

[Meat Shake]

"If your insane and reatarded just use your supere human
strength and reatard scream"

This is what I do.

[blooming lotus]

as a serious martial artist.............I Wanna godammed retard scream!!!!!!!.............no art complete without one right....




working on it :D

[Volcano Admim]

lol tard scream

[Becca]

Originally posted by EvolutionFist
You must really trust your training partners.
No, not all. But this is where the practical use comes in. If you can make the technique work on some one who knows what is comming then you should be able to make it work in a dark alley against some one who doesn't have a clue. This is assumming, of course, you don't freek out. Training with people who sometimes do wild-fu can help you learn not to free out when faced with the unexpected.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by GunnedDownAtrocity
seven .... i can see your point with "any art can be made to work" (i see both side of the fence on that one), but what's more important than the fighters?

WD beat me to it - circumstance.