Snatch the pebble from my hand

[Ernie]

Reading the remarks on the isolated sparring thread, seeing the different points of view made me think. It all seems like people fighting over limits in comfort zones and knowledge. Chi sao is limited vs. chi sao has it all, sparring is pointless vs. sparring is the next progressive step towards applying chi sau skill. Pretty much the same guys same views same arguments. I started to wonder about learning and the teacher student relationship and when a teacher has no more to offer or when a student feels inhibited or controlled.
I have never thought about having to belong to this or that group or this or that teacher, always new you reach a certain level and move on, and when teaching expect the student to have to go on his own journey and evolve on his own with his own experiences to guide him, no strings attached.
The thought of a teacher trying to keep me in or be part of some franchise or group just doesn’t seem natural, a martial artist journey is a personal and individual one.
Sure you develop friendships and you might keep your teacher and some class mates as friends for your entire life, but to truly grow and ‘’ make something your own ‘’ you need to be free, to fall and get up and win and lose.

The separation from a wing Chun training system ‘’ chi sau, forms ‘’ into real world application and self-discovery made me think of this.

When as a teacher are you honest enough to admit you have, shown what you can and you have to let them go to do what they want, and not expect them to do this or that for you.

When as a student do you know its time to leave the nest and experiment on your own, regardless of what a teacher might say.

There comes a time when the training wheels have to be removed, all the stories need to stop and you don’t look back and walk ahead into the unknown

There comes a time when you need to trust in yourself and your abilities, not lineage, sifu’s, historical stories.

Again just a rant

[Matrix]

Nice rant Grasshopper. ;)

When you speak of the two different camps on the topic of chi-sao/sparring, I am reminded of the following quote which I will paraphrase. "To those that believe no proof is necessary, to those that do not believe, none will suffice".

I think the keyword in your dialogue is "time". Nothing remains constant through time. We get older, we get stronger (or weaker). We evolve over time and each in our own time. Based on our experience we modify our view of the world. Who can say that they have not changed their opinion on views that they held onto so strongly in the past? Time heals all wounds.....

Peace,
Bill

[PaulH]

"TO see a World in a Grain of Sand
And a Heaven in a Wild Flower,
Hold Infinity in the palm of your hand
And Eternity in an hour. "

William Blake

Okay, ranting child of innocence... Go thy way and peace be with you! =)

[AmanuJRY]

Oh, I know this one. This is the part where master gives you a fancy belt buckle, tells you it's Bruce's medallion and if you go the fortune cookie factory and find the true master Sum Dum Goi he will finish your training and make you "The Last Dragon".:D

Seriously, though...I share your thoughts in this rant, my personal experience with "organizations" has ups and downs. I'm definately more about people than org's. You learn from people, you form friendships with people, not organizations. Trouble is, there are cool people in lame organizations and lame people in cool organizations. I say forget those kinds of boundries (liniage or organizational) and get to know the people.

[Ernie]

I say forget those kinds of boundries (liniage or organizational) and get to know the people.



----- and what a wonderful world it could be :D

[AmanuJRY]

...what a glorious time to be free.:D :confused: :D

[kj]

Nice rant Ernie.

In keeping with the "challenging assumptions" theme, LOL, I have a couple of exploratory questions. Being a challenger of assumptions yourself, I know you can appreciate that. ;):D


You wrote
When as a teacher are you honest enough to admit you have, shown what you can and you have to let them go to do what they want, and not except them to do this or that for you.

Through your writing I can appreciate your deep and sincere sensitivity to this issue. Out of curiosity, do you really feel that most other students and teachers have a relationship where they are either inappropriately imposing on one another or subjugating themselves?


When as a student do you know its time to leave the nest and experiment on your own, regardless of what a teacher might say.

Sometimes people do need to distance themselves from their teacher for any number of reasons; my perspective is let it be. There are higher callings than blind loyalty to anyone walking this earth.

I remain curious though - do you believe it is inevitably necessary for students to distance themselves from their teachers in order to experiment on their own and learn for themselves?

Do you think most teachers actually tell their students what they can and cannot do? And if so, do you believe that most students accept and follow that? Would you agree that it's possible that some students do what they do and make their choices based on their own reasoning and free will?

The recurring theme almost begs the deeper if rhetorical question of what exactly is a student-teacher relationship. Of course there are any number of answers to that because each and every such relationship is different and unique.

Just more pensive stuff. It's your fault for getting going on it. :p

Regards,
- kj

[Ernie]

Nice rant Ernie.

In keeping with the "challenging assumptions" theme, LOL, I have a couple of exploratory questions. Being a challenger of assumptions yourself, I know you can appreciate that

----- i always gain something from your words fire away



do you really feel that most other students and teachers have a relationship where they are either inappropriately imposing on one another or subjugating themselves?


----- well since i'm not in everybody's head can't say for sure one way or the other , but i have had alot of conversations via email and in person from enough people from many different lineages that give me that impression , at least enough to cause me to wonder out loud , the word '' free'' or not being '' free '' comes up alot ----


I remain curious though - do you believe it is inevitably necessary for students to distance themselves from their teachers in order to experiment on their own and learn for themselves?


----- yes, like any child has to grow and get away to develop , you can still maintain a relationship with some one who has a positive effect on you , but you must walk alone to know yourself -----


Do you think most teachers actually tell their students what they can and cannot do? And if so, do you believe that most students accept and follow that? Would you agree that it's possible that some students do what they do and make their choices based on their own reasoning and free will?


----- if they follow tradition then there is a preconditioned program , in my mind . the realtionship is guided by prerequisites
this inhibits individual growth , every one has free will if the chose to accept the responsibility of those choices is something else , i feel many like to be told what to do and have things handed to them , humans can be very lazy at times , the easy way out is often the road taken , this is not fixed and my view is not everyones reality
;) ;)

The recurring theme almost begs the deeper if rhetorical question of what exactly is a student-teacher relationship. Of course there are any number of answers to that because each and every such relationship is different and unique.

--- for me just a guide on my journey , there will be many types of guides and i in turn might help guide others , we can only point the way , not walk for them---

Just more pensive stuff. It's your fault for getting going on it


----- no prob i'm in one of those moods today
:)

[KenWingJitsu]

ernie is correct. You should ALWAYS challenge assumptions.

Your should always seek out your OWN experience rather than accept someone else's as gospel. Keep in mind there are styles that encourage others to go train elsewhere & compare what they've been taught. this is helathy, but rare in most traditionla systems.

[kj]

Originally posted by KenWingJitsu
ernie is correct. You should ALWAYS challenge assumptions.


By that token, I am correct too. :D
- kj

[KenWingJitsu]

Well that goes without saying KJ :)

[Ultimatewingchun]

While I completely agree with the conclusions that Ernie comes to...

"There comes a time when the training wheels have to be removed, all the stories need to stop and you don’t look back and walk ahead into the unknown.

There comes a time when you need to trust in yourself and your abilities, not lineage, sifu’s, historical stories."


...I don't really agree with some of his basic assumptions about how to get to these last two conclusions.

It's about the whole question of "authority" that I find myself diverging from the path that my friend, Ernie, is on.

Consider this:

The question of "Authority" has been a benumbing weight upon the enquiring soul for many centuries; but now, many minds are awakening to the fact that whatever knowledge is to be gained, must be acquired by each one for himself. To all such minds, it is apparent that each must be his own authority for what he accepts or rejects; he must, therefore, use all the intelligence he possesses in examing and testing out everything that points out the way to self knowledge. With this attitude of mind, free from prejudices and preconceptions, he examines each presentation on its own merits, and accepts or rejects, as those merits appeal or apply.

But there ARE those souls who have ascended the latter of knowledge, skill, wisdom, experience, etc. to a point that we, as an individual soul...HAVE NOT REACHED YET.

And when we meet such a person, and find that we now have an opportunity to learn from them - INCLUDING IN THE TEACHER/STUDENT relationship...

then we owe it TO OURSELVES not to bypass the chance and opportunity put before us..in the name of "wanting to do our own thing"...not wanting to be "anyone's property", etc.

In other words...we need to not let a sense of false pride stand in the way....or "fear of authority", etc.

We need to TAKE A CHANCE on the "teacher" who was put in our path by a higher power than any of us...or even all of us combined.

Not to accept everything they do or say blindly; but rather, to give them the benefit of the doubt when they teach/say/do something new or questionable.

Use what they say as a "working hypothesis"...and if we find that it proves wrong...or not right for us...as an individual...so be it.

And when the time comes to move on from that person or group...that's fine too.

[Matrix]

Originally posted by Ernie
There comes a time when you need to trust in yourself and your abilities, not lineage, sifu’s, historical stories. Ernie,

Agreed that you must ultimately trust in yourself and your own abilities to get the job done.

However, this comes as a result of trust in your sifu and the system that you are studying. You cannot create something from nothing, and so what we absorb from our training becomes apart of us. In the end, you cannot really separate them entirely. What you are (in the martial arts sense) is the manifestation of these ideas, concepts and theories that have been taught to you. You can accept some and reject others, and pull yet others from alternate sources. In the final analysis your kung fu will be your own, but to spurn the source of your knowledge does not serve you. It merely shows contempt for those who should be shown respect.

Having said this, you should always be a student and not a follower. The distinction being that the student contemplates and critically analyzes the information and does not merely conform to someone else's way of thinking.

Bill

[AmanuJRY]

Your words are wise and just, Bill.:)

If your martial training and education is like a journey then instructors; sifus and sihings, are like the people who give you directions. Some because they have been there often and know the way well, others beause they have been there and know the way, and even more who have never really been there but have been told where it is. You don't know which is which until you follow the directions given and find it for yourself.

Anyway, your best teacher is your enemy!:cool:

[anerlich]

The Japanese concept of Shu Ha Ri has always appealed to me.

Loosely:

First ten years, follow the rules (of style, instructor)
Next ten, break the rules (look outside, look for the holes, find your own path)
Next Ten, transcend rules (integrate the first two, express yourself via your experience)

Or from "Illuminatus!": "think for yourself, schmuck!"

[Ernie]

victor,
It's about the whole question of "authority" that I find myself diverging from the path that my friend, Ernie, is on.



interesting victor the word authority has never entered my mind when it comes to martial arts , it's a non factor to me
some has a skill , i research it and like what i see . i pay that person to teach me this skill thus i expect no less then his complete attention ,

this is a business agreement after all , he is being hired to show me something ,

so if there is any authority it's in my hands

if this person then turns out to be a great human being and i develop a friendship with them this is different


if this person teaches me for free then it's a gift and i owe them for that



bill
In the final analysis your kung fu will be your own, but to spurn the source of your knowledge does not serve you. It merely shows contempt for those who should be shown respect.



i never said to spurn anyone that is treating you with respect

even when you leave on your on , if your teacher is a good person you should be blessed to have a good relationship with him as you would any good friend .

i would spurn anyone that tried to use the teacher student relationship for anything else beyond that .
as i would any one that tried to use me

[R Clausnitzer]

Hi, Ernie

Bravo, great post, perhaps your most significant to date.....although the simple truth contained therein may elude most readers.

I am intrigued with the second quote with which you end your messages. I was blown away by it when I first came across it in "Bruce Lee - Fighting Spirit" by Bruce Thomas. It is virtually the antithesis of how most Christians would see it, as for them following Jesus unconditionally is paramount. I have searched far and wide on the internet, spoken to numerous individuals, including churchmen, but have so far failed to find the source of these "heretical" words attributed to Jesus. They sound like something out of the forbidden or rejected gospels, but as I've said, I have not found anything to date. Can you help? It would be hugely appreciated :)


Hi, Victor

I understand where you are coming from, but for me it's a case of understanding and increasingly trusting your own wisdom. The "masters" (which to me does not make sense, as I don't see how anyone can ever progress beyond being a perpetual student, always open to learning something new) you refer to are simply individuals, no different from you and me and the other billions on this planet, who are able to let go of their accumulated knowledge and understanding, and to open themselves to fresh knowledge and understanding. What this translates to in practical, everyday living is that you have the potential to generate insights as profound and useful as anything the Dalai Lama, for example, has come up with, or to discover for yourself new understanding about combat, just as Yip Man, William Cheung, Wong Shun Leung, and others came up with their innovations, modifications, etc. When it comes to putting these insights into practice, however, there appears to be no substitute for actual practice, in its numerous forms :). Continuing to develop one's relationship with good teachers is fine, enjoyable, and fruitful, but to put them on a pedestal is limiting oneself, but then most of us (myself included, in certain aspects of life) prefer to follow.......otherwise we would not tolerate so much that goes on in life, at all levels.


Regards to all.

Rolf

[Phil Redmond]

AmanuJRY:
I've been told that Sum Dum Goi was a play on the words, "Some Dumb Goy".......LOLOL

[kj]

With respect to ...


Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
The question of "Authority" has been a benumbing weight upon the enquiring soul for many centuries<deletia>

That was an extraordinary post, Victor.

Regards,
- kj

[kj]

Originally posted by AmanuJRY
Your words are wise and just, Bill.:)

And yours likewise.
- kj

[kj]

Originally posted by Ernie
vthis is a business agreement after all , he is being hired to show me something ,

so if there is any authority it's in my hands

if this person then turns out to be a great human being and i develop a friendship with them this is different


if this person teaches me for free then it's a gift and i owe them for that

Ah, this may be getting more to the crux and rub in the matter.

In my view, there is no way that I can purchase kung fu. I may pay for a person's time, to help defray rent, insurance costs and keep the lights on, or to help compensate for a person's accumulated expenses over time. But whatever I might be paying for, I have no illusion that it's money for kung fu. That is something I must earn for myself.

And I cannot even fathom "I pay you therefore I worship you," LOL. Like you, the authority is always in my hands.

An exchange of knowledge between individuals comes as a result of the qualities and dynamics of the individuals and their relationships, in whatever form and depth or lack thereof. It is what I do with information and knowledge gained that determines my growth and learning, not who I pay or how much. (If that were true, I'd be worshipping the airlines, LOL.)

FWIW, I find that I learn a lot more from my close friends and associates than I do from those with whom I have a strictly financial relationship or "sterile" exchange of information; others' mileage may vary.


Rolf wrote
Continuing to develop one's relationship with good teachers is fine, enjoyable, and fruitful, but to put them on a pedestal is limiting oneself, but then most of us (myself included, in certain aspects of life) prefer to follow.......otherwise we would not tolerate so much that goes on in life, at all levels.

I could not agree more on this.

And yes, right or wrong, sometimes we choose to follow for well considered reasons, sometimes because we're naive, and sometimes just because it's "easier" and we're lazy sorts. ;) For myself, I find that sometimes leading, sometimes following, and sometimes a mix of both lends a certain and appropriate balance in life. But thinking for myself, or at least trying to, is a mandate.

As much as some people aspire to be on a pedestal, or to place others there, I have always thought it must be very lonely way up there, and a long hard fall when one is ultimately recognized as merely human like the rest of us.

In these things we can observe yet more razor fine balances - in this instance between such things as appropriate respect, appreciation, celebration, and genuine caring for someone vs. forms of idolatry and destructive behaviors. I believe it is this fuzzy fine edge that much of the banter between Ernie and some others of us is ultimately about. I'm also well aware that we sometimes insist on discussing how things are put, even when we aren't really in disagreement about the thing itself. And sometimes we just debate for fun. :)

Regardless of the amount of money exchanging hands, or none at all, I contend that the human element cannot be eradicated from the equation. And, IMHO, how sad if it were so. I enjoy, benefit, and learn so much more from "real" people than from facades, pretentious ones, or those so high on some pedestal that they cannot be reached or fathomed. Whether the subject be kung fu, or most other matters.

I'm reminded of this cliche from flower-power days of yore: "If you set it free, and it returns, then it was meant to be."

Regards,
- kj

P.S. Ernie wins megapoints for "genuine." ;):)

[R Clausnitzer]

Originally posted by kj
Ah, this may be getting more to the crux and rub in the matter.

Hi, kj

Beautifully and equanimously (first time I've ever used this adverb) expressed :)

Regards.

Rolf





In my view, there is no way that I can purchase kung fu. I may pay for a person's time, to help defray rent, insurance costs and keep the lights on, or to help compensate for a person's accumulated expenses over time. But whatever I might be paying for, I have no illusion that it's money for kung fu. That is something I must earn for myself.

And I cannot even fathom "I pay you therefore I worship you," LOL. Like you, the authority is always in my hands.

An exchange of knowledge between individuals comes as a result of the qualities and dynamics of the individuals and their relationships, in whatever form and depth or lack thereof. It is what I do with information and knowledge gained that determines my growth and learning, not who I pay or how much. (If that were true, I'd be worshipping the airlines, LOL.)

FWIW, I find that I learn a lot more from my close friends and associates than I do from those with whom I have a strictly financial relationship or "sterile" exchange of information; others' mileage may vary.



I could not agree more on this.

And yes, right or wrong, sometimes we choose to follow for well considered reasons, sometimes because we're naive, and sometimes just because it's "easier" and we're lazy sorts. ;) For myself, I find that sometimes leading, sometimes following, and sometimes a mix of both lends a certain and appropriate balance in life. But thinking for myself, or at least trying to, is a mandate.

As much as some people aspire to be on a pedestal, or to place others there, I have always thought it must be very lonely way up there, and a long hard fall when one is ultimately recognized as merely human like the rest of us.

In these things we can observe yet more razor fine balances - in this instance between such things as appropriate respect, appreciation, celebration, and genuine caring for someone vs. forms of idolatry and destructive behaviors. I believe it is this fuzzy fine edge that much of the banter between Ernie and some others of us is ultimately about. I'm also well aware that we sometimes insist on discussing how things are put, even when we aren't really in disagreement about the thing itself. And sometimes we just debate for fun. :)

Regardless of the amount of money exchanging hands, or none at all, I contend that the human element cannot be eradicated from the equation. And, IMHO, how sad if it were so. I enjoy, benefit, and learn so much more from "real" people than from facades, pretentious ones, or those so high on some pedestal that they cannot be reached or fathomed. Whether the subject be kung fu, or most other matters.

I'm reminded of this cliche from flower-power days of yore: "If you set it free, and it returns, then it was meant to be."

Regards,
- kj

P.S. Ernie wins megapoints for "genuine." ;):)

[Ultimatewingchun]

Rolf:

Not sure where this came from...

"Do not follow me, because if you do, you will lose both me and yourself....but if you follow yourself, you will find both me and yourself."

But in the Gospel according to Thomas..we find these words attributed to Christ:

"I have cast fire upon the world, and see I guard it,until the world is afire." (saying 10)

"Whoever is near to me is near to the fire,and whoever is far from me is far from the kingdom." (saying 82)

"Whoever drinks from my mouth shall become as I am and I myself will become he, and the hidden things shall be revealed to him." (saying 108)

Now the key to understanding all of this is the Higher Power (or Spirit) WITHIN all of us.

Whenever Jesus talks of himself in the above quotes...he's talking about the CHRIST principle (or the SPIRIT) within him...which is fully CONSCIOUS...and he is exhorting his followers (STUDENTS) to develop the ability within themselves to allow that same SPIRITUAL CONSCIOUSNESS to come to the forefront of their being. Which they must do for themselves.

So in the end...they must stand up on their own two feet. Therefore, when saying, as in the quote that Ernie has at the bottom of his posts..."but if you follow yourself, you will find both me and yourself..."

He's talking about the SELF...all in capitals...not lower case - "self"...meaning...

the SPIRIT within.

And it was Jesus' job to TEACH the knowledge of the Higher SELF - or the "CHRIST" principle - and to point out the way to unlocking it.

When he says "dont follow me"...he means that the "lower self" is always looking for protection and orders to follow...and this tendency needs to be outgrown. We need to learn how to rely on our own inner, HIGHER SELF. (The SPIRIT within)

On a similar note...the Buddha was once asked what was the difference between him and other men. His reply was...

"I am Awake."

[Matrix]

Originally posted by Ernie
even when you leave on your on , if your teacher is a good person you should be blessed to have a good relationship with him as you would any good friend . Ernie,
I think that would be ideal. The relationship would merely evolve along with everything else.

Bill

[Matrix]

Originally posted by crimsonking
Nice quote Matrix - my belief is that there is no proof, only belief. Thanks Crimsonking... when you boil it down, all we have is our faith.


AmanuJRY,
Thank you for the kind words. And yes, we can learn a lot from our enemies as well.

Peace,
Bill

[Ernie]

victor.
'''But in the Gospel according to Thomas '''

holy cow things just got spiritual !!!!

but you picked up on something i have '' belief '' in
..."but if you follow yourself, you will find both me and yourself..."


you don't need to look out side yourself , it's all there always has been , sure sometimes a guide will come along in life and hold up a mirror for you , and you will think you see there reflection , but what you see is yourself in them , so in reality you are always seeking ''SELF''

bill,
Ernie,
I think that would be ideal. The relationship would merely evolve along with everything else.


that's why i build friendships , not relationships were there are defined levels .

even in business , i have always said i will work with you , towards what ever goal , but i don't do well working for you :D


kathy,
In my view, there is no way that I can purchase kung fu. I may pay for a person's time,

i see it like this , since i have been a on and off personal trainer , people pay me for my guidence and knowledge and motivation

but they have to put in the work , to get results

again this is how it starts , what it may develop into well that is beyond the training .

rolf,
I have not found anything to date. Can you help? It would be hugely appreciated

go in the bath room look in the mirrior , go to a loved one and look into there eyes , that which is beaming back at you is another reflection of "SELF''

:D


thank you for your words so far everyone , as usual i play one extreme to leave room for debate ;)

[Matrix]

Originally posted by kj
I'm reminded of this cliche from flower-power days of yore: "If you set it free, and it returns, then it was meant to be." ....and if it does not, it was never yours in the first place.

[kj]

Originally posted by Matrix
....and if it does not, it was never yours in the first place.

Ha ha, yup. Just passing through!!! :D

I can still see images of that yellowed old saw with the picture of the butterfly on it. That and the peace signs, tie dyes, headbands and love beads, hoards of little press-on daisies in various sizes and colors, and luv, luv, luv everywhere. Now I just want the ability to kick some sorry butt. :p

Regards,
- kj

[Matrix]

Originally posted by kj
........... and luv, luv, luv everywhere. Now I just want the ability to kick some sorry butt. :p KJ, Sounds like you're just a Wing Chun hippie at heart.

Peace,
Bill

[PaulH]

It's true that luv, luv is everywhere! It's how the world can go on. It's why we can still smile though our heart is breaking. And it's why we are still here talking, sharing, and growing. May the force be with you! =)

P.S. Gibran talks about this years ago, Ernie. If only you would crack and read books more often, big brother! =)

On Freedom
And an orator said, "Speak to us of Freedom."

And he answered:

At the city gate and by your fireside I have seen you prostrate yourself and worship your own freedom,

Even as slaves humble themselves before a tyrant and praise him though he slays them.

Ay, in the grove of the temple and in the shadow of the citadel I have seen the freest among you wear their freedom as a yoke and a handcuff.

And my heart bled within me; for you can only be free when even the desire of seeking freedom becomes a harness to you, and when you cease to speak of freedom as a goal and a fulfillment.

You shall be free indeed when your days are not without a care nor your nights without a want and a grief,

But rather when these things girdle your life and yet you rise above them naked and unbound.

And how shall you rise beyond your days and nights unless you break the chains which you at the dawn of your understanding have fastened around your noon hour?

In truth that which you call freedom is the strongest of these chains, though its links glitter in the sun and dazzle the eyes.

And what is it but fragments of your own self you would discard that you may become free?

If it is an unjust law you would abolish, that law was written with your own hand upon your own forehead.

You cannot erase it by burning your law books nor by washing the foreheads of your judges, though you pour the sea upon them.

And if it is a despot you would dethrone, see first that his throne erected within you is destroyed.

For how can a tyrant rule the free and the proud, but for a tyranny in their own freedom and a shame in their won pride?

And if it is a care you would cast off, that care has been chosen by you rather than imposed upon you.

And if it is a fear you would dispel, the seat of that fear is in your heart and not in the hand of the feared.

Verily all things move within your being in constant half embrace, the desired and the dreaded, the repugnant and the cherished, the pursued and that which you would escape.

These things move within you as lights and shadows in pairs that cling.

And when the shadow fades and is no more, the light that lingers becomes a shadow to another light.

And thus your freedom when it loses its fetters becomes itself the fetter of a greater freedom.

[AmanuJRY]

Phil,;) :D

Bill,

You're welcome. Though we may not learn much or often from our enemies, they probably provide the most profound lessons.

KJ,

Thanx.

An exchange of knowledge between individuals comes as a result of the qualities and dynamics of the individuals and their relationships, in whatever form and depth or lack thereof. It is what I do with information and knowledge gained that determines my growth and learning, not who I pay or how much.

I love this statement, props kj!

I would like to say that IMO, a payment is made for the exchange of knowledge and true, it is up to you how you use that knowledge. In a student/teacher relationship (at least any that has an exchange of $$$) the comodity that is being passed is knowledge. Say it were a guitar teacher, you pay him for the knowledge of how to play a guitar, whether you can play worth a s**t is up to you, how much you practice, understand and (!!!Important!!!) how well you are able to express yourself with it.

[Ernie]

P.S. Gibran talks about this years ago, Ernie. If only you would crack and read books more often, big brother! =)



i spent my youth reading books and poetry

now i prefer to live in the moment :)


i prefer to not be the boy in the bubble , reading about other peoples adventures

i like to live my own :D

[AmanuJRY]

Concerning authority and discipline, I would like to say that since we are referring to a MARTIAL art, we need to realize that origings of the art were related to combat. So the existance of authroity in a martial arts school is not unheard of. Of course we can argue the in's and out's of why it is or isn't nessisary, but any who have served in the military will know how effective training can be when you have someone who can motivate you (using either positive or negitive means) beyond what your concious mind "thinks" it is able to achieve.

...as kj would say, milage may vary.

[Ernie]

my step father was a ex marine
he tried to'' motivate'' me

didn't work:D

i guess when you are self motivated you view things with a different life filter

to each there own as long as we all grow together

[AmanuJRY]

true to form, I never said the military was the best at motivating people, but it does work on the majority (othrewise their methods would change). I find it's the ones who say "I can't" that need the more "pushy" kind of motivation, for the ones who are full on "I can" people motivation often comes from inspiration, but there are many in MA that are lacking self confidence and self esteem and that creates some barriers for motivation that are difficult to overcome without a little push.

I personally don't agree with the "drill sargent" image for a MA instructor (makes me think of the bad sensi from Karate Kid).

I think the ability to learn a person's personality and identify a "good" way of motivating them is an excellent quality for a Master.

[Ernie]

but there are many in MA that are lacking self confidence and self esteem and that creates some barriers for motivation that are difficult to overcome without a little push.


[[[[ i like to use a cattle prod :) just zap em ]]]




think the ability to learn a person's personality and identify a "good" way of motivating them is an excellent quality for a Master.


[[[ well we know i'll never be mistaken for one of those :D ;) ]]]

[Ultimatewingchun]

"my step father was an ex marine
he tried to 'motivate' me ....didn't work."

God what a shock...REALLY ???!!!

I never would have guessed it!

I have met very few good fighters who DIDN'T have a "father-figure" of some type, who...shall we say..."inspired them" in some way.

And oftentimes that can mean that our rebellion against them is a huge factor in the burning desire to become a good fighter.

(Here's another shock for you...I also fall into this latter group.)

But it can also mean that we come to equate all "authority figures" with the word...BAD...

which...in do time...will no longer be an asset to our development...but a hindrance.

I know for a fact that, in my life anyway, it's long been overdue for me to STOP being so rebellious against certain types of "authority"...

because I've been so used to being suspicious of ALL authority for so long. After awhile this kind of thing can be very counter-productive to my own PRESENT best interests.

It served me well as a teenager and into my twenties...but time...and circumstances...have marched on.

One of the paradoxes of life: What was yesterday's medicine can become tomorrow's poison.

[AmanuJRY]

IMO, authority is like respect in that you give it to the person (except, of course, in the realm of slavery and government). We usually see authority as something beyond our control (and it was when we were kids), not as something that you had say in. Truth is, as an adult, the only ones who have authority over you are those you submit to - your boss/employer, teacher, priest, parents, etc. Some reasons to submit to them are obvious; boss-cause you need a job/money, Cop - duh!? Others, like your teacher, parents or even your *significant other*, not as obvious, is because of Trust. By trusting them and trusting their judgement you give them authority, to whatever degree you dictate. This kind of authority can be from respect as well. It's all connected.

[Ernie]

trust much better word then authority
trust that is earned even better
some one you trust can guide you
authority sounds like sister mary elephant with a ruler smacking my hands :)

[Ernie]

victor
I have met very few good fighters who DIDN'T have a "father-figure" of some type, who...shall we say..."inspired them" in some way.

And oftentimes that can mean that our rebellion against them is a huge factor in the burning desire to become a good fighter.


i see this to be more competitive

if you knew me would see i am not competitive at all , don't even watch sports
they bore me

i do gain inspireation from many people around me ,
could be anybody any time on any subject

[[ this is why i feel you gain more when you seperate and go out on your own , this gives you knew eyes to see
instead of looking through someone elses ]]

mostly i get inspired to help some one progress

that is the best feeling :D

[AmanuJRY]

Originally posted by Ernie
trust much better word then authority
trust that is earned even better
some one you trust can guide you

Another matter of semantics (here we go again, I'll abridge it this time :D ),

au·thor·i·ty

noun

1. right to command: the right or power to enforce rules or give orders


2. holder of power: somebody or something with official power


3. power given to somebody: power to act on behalf of somebody else or official permission to do something


4. source of reliable information: somebody who is accepted as a source of reliable information on a subject, or a book in which such information is given

----

7. quality that is respected: the ability to gain the respect of other people and to influence or control what they do


8. obvious knowledge and experience: knowledge, skill, or experience worthy of respect


I wish the english language was more simple.:( ;) :D

[Ultimatewingchun]

AmanuJRY:

That was good, man...ha! ha! ha!

Lesson for today, class: Trust is one thing...authority is something else!

Although being able to trust the authorities...now that's utopia.

Doesn't happen often enough...now does it?

[AmanuJRY]

I'm not sure if you are being sarchastic there or not, Victor.

My point was that authority (def. #3+7), is given to *insert relevant person here* because of your trust and respect. This is the ideal of a healthy relationship.
Of course, there are unhealthy ones which such authority is abused and trust and respect are a result of deception, but we all avoid that.......don't we?:confused:

[Ultimatewingchun]

AmanuJRY:

Not being sarcastic at all...I thoroughly enjoyed your post.

Whatever you "picked up" in my post was just me tweaking my friend Ernie's nose!

[Ernie]

victor
Whatever you "picked up" in my post was just me tweaking my friend Ernie's nose!


oh no my nose is tweaked i'm melting i'm melting ahhhh
i'll get you victor and that little your little dog AmanuJRY

too :D :D



being able to trust the authorities...now that's utopia.


--- problem i'm a minority living in LA trusting the authorities is not an option '' ouch''

the only utopia i know is a ride in disneyland :D

[AmanuJRY]

oh no my nose is tweaked i'm melting i'm melting ahhhh
i'll get you victor and that little your little dog AmanuJRY

too


Ernie, it's spelled DAWG!:D :D :D

[Ernie]

don't make me send my flying monkeys after you :)