Choy Lay Fut Tactics

[Askari Hodari]

Greetings all.

I wanted ask a few questions regarding CLF combat tactics.

First, I wanted to know how the CLF fighter deals with advancing in on and attacking one's opponent. What techniques do you use (i.e., gwa, sao, tsop, etc.)? What combinations of these techniques? I understand that there is an ulimited array of approaches, but I'm interested in hearing some of your perspectives.

Secondly, one of the core principles of CLF is using one's body to maximize the power of an attack. How do you determine whether to fully execute a technique (including the full body movements and fully extended strike) versus using shorter more compact variant of the same technique?

Finally, how do you avoid leaving yourself exposed and vulnerable when executing techniques with (or sequences of techniques) with the full extensions and body movements (ex. using gwa+kam>yum tsop like it appears in the forms)?

Thanks in advance.
Askari Hodari

[Ben Gash]

Any and all of the principles can be used.
The long and short movements are essentially the same, it's just you hit them at different points.
Attacks are almost always paired with a covering motion.

[Tapani]

Hi!

Ben, even thou it's true, saying that attacks have a covering movement doesn't say a lot. The fact is that the long techniques used in CLF do leave you somewhat open, if you compare them to some other CMA styles. IMO the key to succesful use of CLF is in continuity.

But also you have to remeber that sometimes the chances are that you are going to get hit. The goal is to keep going with the combination despite the hit and then finish with a KO techinque. Of course, this kind of fighting doesn't suit everybody and is propably better suited with a really strong person. It's not my style of fighting but I know people who fight like this.


Tapani

[hungsingclf]

hello, check out this site. www.joybotsin.com, video trailer of joy yau bew sey, Grandmaster Dino Salvatera shows apps to movements out of the set. hope this helps.

[Ou Ji]

Sold out already???!!! I didn't even know it was available yet.

BTW, you need to take the comma out at the end of the link for it to work.

http://www.joybotsin.com/store.htm

[sean_stonehart]

Huzzah... the gang's almost all here!

[Sow Choy]

Hey Brothers...

Hey Frank... How are ya man? Have not herad for you in a while... I have been busy travelling between our 2 schools and website stuff, so can't get on here much... Just had a wisdom tooth, very painfull so cant train too well... email when u can, wanna see if u are goin to John Leong's tournament.

CLF Tactics... Nice Post

Let me plug something for Gene Ching and me... lol

Next KF Mag will have an article I wrote with relation to this topic a bit....

But one thing I believe is important not mentioned yet is timing... Wheter you close the gap or slip out on an attack, when your opponent is off balance or disadvantaged all your techniques regardless will have a better chance of working.

In the LKH family we enjoy sweeping to set up alot of straight punches and sow choys, and alot of side stepping too.

Peace,

Joe

[Fu-Pow]

Originally posted by Sow Choy
[ email when u can, wanna see if u are goin to John Leong's tournament.

When is John Leong's Tournament?

[CLFNole]

I believe its September 4 & 5.

Peace.

[Eddie]

From the sound of it, it seems to me that you assume a real fight would last pretty long. Long range techniques work just as effective in a shorter range, and I doubt that you will open your self up as much as you do when training forms. You mention gwa cum, which is a technique we very successfully use in San Da (just ending up in a fist instead op a palm). Doing it at the right and realistic speed, you wont open yourself up, instead you cover more up than anything else. I saw a san da video from china, where one of the fighters kept keeping his distance with a sow choy like strike (I say sow choy like to avoid politics). He was able to use it successful every time, which kept his opponent away from him.

I favour ending all fighting set up with some kind of sweep, throw or takedowm. Probably personal preference more than anything else, but my CLF teaches me allot of takedowns and sweeps, which if trained regularly, could be pretty effective and just about ‘ unstoppable’ in a real situation.

I don’t buy the whole “ CLF is a long range fighting style” thing, as we can change every move to suit a shorter range. A gwa chow could become a temporary hold (as used in northern mantis) or bridge which could be followed up with any other strike. Then there are grappling as we discussed before, which stems directly from certain principles we have in our style or any other style.

If CLF (or any other kung fu style for that matter) is trained correctly, you should have a ‘ complete’ martial art (if you like to use the words of all the jkd players around), which follows all ranges of fighting.

I enjoy CLF, and for me this style is pretty effective. I have had to use CLF inside the ring, and outside, and I am 100% sure that if I keep training delinquently and correctly, I can be the best fighter I want to be. The style has everything I need, I just need to apply my knowledge and polish my skills. Having said that, I also realise that this is easier said than done, especially in today’s world where it is almost impossible to even steel a few spare minutes extra to train. Finding a challenging training partner is even more difficult.

Ed

[Askari Hodari]

Thanks for everyone's replies. Sow Choy and Eddie your comments regarding timing and technique are appreciated.

Eddie: I don't assume that a real fight would last long. To the contrary, the longer the fight lasts the greater the likliehood that you will experience some injury or worse.

My original concern had to do with the structural speed of the CLF system as evidenced in the extent of movement in some techniques. However your comment Eddie regarding the movements being executed faster in combat than in the forms seems plausible. Also, the fact that you're impacting a solid target as opposed to swinging in the air means that the range of execution will be smaller than in the forms...so in some ways this addresses my initial concern.

Thanks for your insight.

I'm curious how others view CLF combat tactics.

Askari Hodari

[Ben Gash]

You know it does kinda p*ss me off that people seem to think we're morons who just swing our arms at people. CLF is southern shaolin kung fu, therefore principles such as bridgeing and sticking are core concepts in the application of CLF.
I'm still somewhat curious as to how CLF techniques leave you exposed, as they're either delivered side on or bring your other hand immediately into play. Also half the movements contain a grab or stick with Chin Na before you've hit them.

[Tapani]

Hi again

I do not think that CLF people are morons who just swing our arms at people as you suggested Ben. What I meant was that the long tehniques of CLF do leave you sometimes open if you want to do them in full strength.
Say you do a kwa-cheung ng choy- pek choy. If you want to do the pek as a KO finishing move, you will propably want to sink down your sei ping ma and do the technique with a long hand(generating more power). In order to do this, you want to take your kwa -hand all the way back. Right? And this DOES leave you open! And before anybode says it, it is of course possible to do the same combo with closed guard and close range. Then it will not be as strong, thou. This, IMO is already a fighting tactics issue. You can't use all techiques against all opponents, but against some this kind of fighting would be really effective.
And also, as long range techinques are the first techinques learned(at least where I learned CLF), people tend to associate CLF with those. A higher level student of course learns to use short range and grappling.

Cheers!

Tapani

[Judge Pen]

I liked Ed's post as it hit on a very important princliple in all martial arts: following through with a technique. You don't hit a target on an opponent; you hit through the target on the opponent. If done properly you will generate more power and not leave yourself open. If you miss, then your training should provide for the flow of one technique to the next. Good thread (and I haven't even learned any CLF!) :p

[Sow Choy]

I think many people have only seen CLF in books and have seen some of the postures where the arms are extended give the impression of being open, I saw it like that also before I began my training.

And people who use the same stances when fighting that they do in form, in my opinion are going to find it very difficult to fight fast and efficient. When we fight we are very comfortable and move quick and with ease. The forms help us create good habit in posture, not over extending or leaning, and how to use both hands to help generate speed and power.

So when we fight we keep a more narrow stance and do not think, just react. So when doing these swinging techniques, they are usually used closing the gap or in a bridge, but either they are done more natural or compact or to break through someones guard.

Again, having good timing is important. There are many ways to close or open the gap.

I have seen one school who fought with lower stances and swing punches, and I felt bad for these guys, to me they clearly did not understand timing and how to be natural when fighting. I think they were from some lama pai school, and other lama pai fighters I have seen are pretty good, similar to CLF.

Good post.

Joe

[Judge Pen]

On a related note, I think the height of stances are important while fighting. I'm not saying you try to fight and move out of very low stances, but when pulling or throwing someone the sinking of the weight is important for leverage and power generation. To that end you do fight from the stances you train in.

Again, I speaking in general MA terms here.

[Sow Choy]

judge Penn,

I agree, when striking we keep a more comfortable stance, when grappling a bit for throws we sometimes sink, but our stance and footwork must be very versatile.

A saying in our style about our footwork: a snake sliding and a mouse running. Refers to a particular combo in a form but also that our feet must be quick and change

[GARRA DE TIGRE]

sow choy ;


welcome back to the forum . we 'd miss your knowldge here .
i wanna ask you if you know the name of that saying in cantonese .


ps : i'd was trainning and ( sharing a room ) with sifu paul in sao paulo , brasil . the last mounth . was a great time with him and the lee koon hung kung fu brasil people , cesar and selma .
i¡ll hope we can meet some day .

saludos desde argentina !!!

[Sow Choy]

Garra,

Welcome to our family, everyone is impressed with your ability and hope to meet you soon.

I may be in Brasil in November this year, maybe do a seminar too.

The saying for "Snake Sliding & Mouse Running" in Cantonese i was taught like this "Seh Hang Shee Bo" which literally means Snake Walk Mouse Stance.

With these kind of things I am not the most knowledgable, I don't really get into it much, I like to train more then talk about lineage history blah blah blah...

I had some wisdom teeth pulled, so i have been here for a few days, but once I am healed, I won't have much time again...

Joe

[SifuX-HSK]

i'm trying to get to seattle but i work on the docks of sf and oakland, and work is busy. i have been working with my students in kansas who are helping spread our system.

i am planning out my dvd, and i will be doing a book and the dvd version of the book which i have almost completed (the book).
it is on the american hung sing kwoon.

hey joe, email me at hungloonghsk@hotmail.com since i can't find your email anywhere.

frank

[Fu-Pow]

I recently bought a digital video camera and taped one of our most recent performances. One thing that really came across to me is that CLF differs the most greatly from other Southern Styles in its footwork. Most people think it is in the arms but other Southern styles have long reaching techniques like CLF.

In general, CLF is much more mobile and quick footed than other Southern styles. Maybe because I've watched a lot of streaming videos of Northern styles lately but I really noticed that CLF has more in common footwork wise with the long fist styles than with its southern brethren.

[Sow Choy]

North & South Stances/Footwork...

Good Topic Fu Pow...

In my experiences, I noticed Northern styles like to skip alot into there finish moves, my experience is the Northern forms from GM Shek Kin and some Bak Siu Lam. But Northern Stance is kinda loose and not constraining. I have found the Tai Shing Pek Kwar familys "Pek Kwar' hand sets to be very similar to our CLF.

But when I see Hung Gar footwork, it seems like ours, but we have a different feel. Maybe its only our family Fu Pow. While in Fut Shan, i noticed there flavor was different then ours a bit. Their hands were pretty fast, but the stance was tighter a bit similar to Hung Gar. But again I only saw a small demo, and do not know Hung Gar, so I am only observing.

Joe

[SifuX-HSK]

hey,

you are right, the horse in fut san is a lot tighter than that of yours of mak's shools. their hands are quick. i have about 5 or 6 different sets they did and they are fast, but i think their horses are little different than ours too, but the way they move and the process of the forms are just like ours in sf.

frank

[Sow Choy]

Frank,

Seeing the trailer of your sifu and a few other on the trailer, our styles are very similar too... More than Futshan. To be honest I believe some of the performers when I was there were possibly beginners, but same techniques, I did see some Bak Sing style single hand double circle blocks "Poon Kiu"

Who is the main teacher there now? Is it GM Choi kwon yu? I cant remember his name very well. The same sifu who taught Cham Kam Fai?

Joe

[Ben Gash]

Tapani, I'm still somewhat confused as to how you feel this leaves you exposed. The waist turns so that you face your opponent side on, the Sow Choy cuts across your centreline right to left, and you finish with your arm across your body with your shoulder in front of your chin. Indeed, In Bak Sing Fut Gar forms this combination is tidied up a bit more so that the finished posture is a formal defensive posture akin to Taiji's "riding the tiger" posture.
At what point are you exposed?

[Tapani]

Ben

I'll try to make my point another way. In some of the techniques in CLF your other hand is behind you when your second hand is between yourself and your opponent.(for example when doing a straight punch with your back hand when you have done a kwa with your front hand) You would be less open if both of your hand were between the two of you. moving your other hand behind yourself is something some other styles would never do, even thou by going from one extreme to another you can generate more power. And my main point was that sometimes in CLF this is the hole point. By sacrificing a bit from your defence you get more power and reach. And again this is of course just a possibility and not suited for everybody/ever situation.
I don't know how to explain my thoughts any better, so if I haven't convinced you yet, let's move on to other questions. :-)

cheers

Tapani

[Ben Gash]

I don't need convincing, this is a discussion. Why would you need extra reach if you've already made contact with your front hand?
Also, the movements are not independent of each other. Either you'll have hit them in the face with a Gwa Choy (REALLY nasty), in which case the initiative is well and truly with you, or the Gwa choy will create a bridge, stick and clear the opponent's arms, oppening THEM up for the Sow Choy.
Many of the behind the body movements in CLF are applied with the elbow bent while restraining your opponent's attacking arm(s). The third line of 5 wheel fist being a good example of this. The forms represent principles expressed to their full to train the body to move, but as has already been discussed, even if applied to the full, the altered dynamics of a 200lb live opponent mean that it will appear slightly different.

[Tapani]

Heh, since replying to the forums is much more fun than working, I'll reply to you once more:)

If the kwa is used to hit the guard of your opponent, you are certainly going to need the extra reach if you want to hit the head with your saw or pek(which was my example).

Also In my experince, you sometimes need the reach in a fight when somebody is just teasing you with front hand hits. Then you can hit really hard with a kwa to your opponent's hand and follow with a saw, for example. In this case, your opponent is very likely to move bachwards and even if you move forward, you will need the extra reach generated with straight hand, correct movement of your hip and shoulders and the consecuent opening of your guard. And with opening I don't mean opening like "please welcome to hit my face"(the other hand is up guarding of course). Even when your hand is up, IMO you are still more open than if you would have both of your hands guarding.

But you are right that the movements are not independent. Being open or not is a matter of continuity and you are going to be more open only during the hopefully fast movement. In the end, it takes a lot of skill to take advantage of that opening.


Tapani

[Fu-Pow]

Originally posted by Tapani
[B]Ben

I'll try to make my point another way. In some of the techniques in CLF your other hand is behind you when your second hand is between yourself and your opponent.(for example when doing a straight punch with your back hand when you have done a kwa with your front hand)


Ahhh...but the hand "behind" is often to send an attack behind you.

Remember CLF is designed specifically with multiple attackers in mind.

Not all of the techniques are like that though often the "off" hand sits under the elbow.

[Judge Pen]

In applications like this involving a single attacker, would not the "back" hand be pulling your opponent into your attack? Whenever I chamber a hand tecnique I think that it could be a pull as well as a chambering technique.

[Sow Choy]

Timing,

Being a younger art 1830's, I was taught CLF was devised as a faster art to be able to have an advantage over the main arts of that day...

So again, pictures in a book, or a poor exponent of the style might be open, in fact my original impression of CLF was from a book, and I thought they were to open in the pictures. But after learning, sparring and fighting with CLF, try and hit someone while they are in this position... Good Luck, because this position is usually used if your guard is broken and the hand behind you will turn out the lights... lol , I have felt it on both ends, hitting and getting hit...

Also, the multiple attackers thing is true also, you will hit people you didnt even know where there...

Again, CLF's theory and applications really maked it stand out from the rest, and it seems to me, this varies between schools a bit. The machine gun attacks at diffent angles with quick closing and opening of the gap is what stands out in my mind with CLF...

Joe

[Fu-Pow]

Originally posted by Sow Choy
The machine gun attacks at diffent angles with quick closing and opening of the gap is what stands out in my mind with CLF...

Joe

Haha...that's funny because last night I was saying CLF is the "drive by shooting" style of kung fu.

[Rhat]

Originally posted by Sow Choy

The machine gun attacks at diffent angles with quick closing and opening of the gap is what stands out in my mind with CLF...

Joe

Joe,

The machine gun attacks is wing chun, not CLF.

These pow, sow, chop attacks are CLF.

[Fu-Pow]

Originally posted by Rhat
Joe,

The machine gun attacks is wing chun, not CLF.

These pow, sow, chop attacks are CLF.

Both are CLF.

CLF is not all long range pow, sow, gwa.

It is also rapid fire Chap Chui.

[Rhat]

Originally posted by Fu-Pow
Both are CLF.

CLF is not all long range pow, sow, gwa.

It is also rapid fire Chap Chui.

CLF Chap Chui =.38

wing chun yat gee chung kune = AK47

[Fu-Pow]

And yet another "no profiler" proceeds to tell me about my own style.

[Sow Choy]

Rhat,

There were no machine guns around in the beginning days of both styles...

Chain Punching is what I think what your talking about, We have a form of chain punch also, a bit different then Wing Chun, 2 kinds with different positioning of the elbow. CLF is full of straight line techniques to the centerline, in fact alot longer since in CLF we turn the waist and shoulders to gain about a foot on a common squared up punch.

How do i know? I also trained Wing Chun, before I learned CLF. Plus they both have been fighting each other so long, the Hong Kong schools are full of techniques on both sides to counter the other.

Pow Sow Chops are used after the straights or other opening techniques are used, but again its up to the player...

In the end it doesnt matter anyway, its the fighter not the style :cool:

Joe

[Ben Gash]

Rhat, as the CLF Chop Choy will maim and kill, and a single WC punch hurts a bit, I would suggest you are a little off with your analogy. (I also did WC for many years.)

[Rhat]

Originally posted by Ben Gash
Rhat, as the CLF Chop Choy will maim and kill, and a single WC punch hurts a bit, I would suggest you are a little off with your analogy. (I also did WC for many years.)


Ben Gash,

LOL, I also did CLF for many years;)

WC punch lin wan kune =======@

CLF pow sow chop / ^ \ _ / ^ \ :)

[T. Cunningham]

"WC punch lin wan kune =======@

CLF pow sow chop / ^ \ _ / ^ \ "

Doesn't "lin wan" pretty much mean continuous? I don't believe the concept is indigenous to any one particular style, but rather is a concept that should be present in all.

T. Cunningham

[darkholme]

WC punch lin wan kune ==@==@==@==@==@ as much use as a wet lettuce if your opponent keeps moving. WC has much more effective techniques than this.
CLF pow sow chop >>>>>>>> each technique not just hitting but penetrating the target

[Rhat]

Originally posted by darkholme
WC punch lin wan kune ==@==@==@==@==@ as much use as a wet lettuce if your opponent keeps moving. WC has much more effective techniques than this.
CLF pow sow chop >>>>>>>> each technique not just hitting but penetrating the target


Here we go again...

WC punch = AK47
===@===@===@
===@===@===@
===@===@===@

CLF pow sow chop =.38
/ / ^ / / ^ / / ^
+++*+++*+++*
------>------>------>

[Ben Gash]

A) I don't think I've ever seen Pow,Sow,Chop as a combo at any CLF school
B) your analogy is nonsense, as the individual shot from a AK47 is reasonably powerful, where as a .38 is pretty weak. A single CLF strike is undeniably,empirically, quantifiably more powerful than a single WC strike.
Strangely enough I did my school's WC class on Sunday (needed a workout) which I haven't done in ages. Still boring as ever, but did give me a chance to review this issue.

[CLFNole]

This whole thing is completely stupid. You get shot with either and your dead so whats the point.

Peace.

[Eddie]

Did you guys know that you can leave an AK47 under water for days (maybe even months) and still use it properly. I have also seen soldiers assemble an AK in mud, and it still worked fine (where as the usual R1 rifle we used would never stand up to that). An AK is probably one of the best assault rifles around, and suit gorilla warfare just fine. Its compact and at first glance, you might not think to much of it, but when you get more into its whole design and structure, you realise how powerful the gun really is. Then again, the gun is just as good as the person who uses it. Kind of remind me of kung fu for some reason.

[Rhat]

Originally posted by CLFNole
whats the point.


Here is the point.

The machine gun attacks is wing chun, not CLF.


WC punch = AK47
===@===@===@
===@===@===@
===@===@===@

CLF pow sow chop =.38
/ / ^ / / ^ / / ^
+++*+++*+++*
------>------>------>

[CLFNole]

Yeah whatever you say, love the illustrations.

Move on with this one its hopeless.

[yutyeesam]

Originally posted by Rhat
Here is the point.

The machine gun attacks is wing chun, not CLF.


WC punch = AK47
===@===@===@
===@===@===@
===@===@===@

CLF pow sow chop =.38
/ / ^ / / ^ / / ^
+++*+++*+++*
------>------>------>

SA-WEET!!! Just make sure it's a one to one showdown in an elevator. :p

If not, then CLF definitely provides you with all the carpet bombing you could ever need!:D

On a less retarded note, and back to the technicalities, I've never seen CLF chain punch type stuff before. The closest I've seen is a continuous circular blade hand pushing out (chaan jeong, I think), one over the other.
Is there a form that has the continuous Tsop Choys? if so, which one(s) and of what lineage? Thanks, 123.

[CLFNole]

Buk Sing CLF has the lien wan chop choy or 'continuous panther fist'. I don't believe it is similar to the wing chun chain punch where the body is squared to the target. You would need to ask a buk sing player the specifics, however any CLF practioner should now how to apply a continued variety of chop choys.

Peace.

[Fu-Pow]

Wing Chun=AK47

Choy Lay Fut=super rapid fire grenade launcher

......haha!

[hungsingclf]

Lau Bun's Hung Sing Choy Lee Fut uses something similar, we call it ping ahn choy (level eye punch) which actually is a leopard fist thrown from say ping ma right leopard, dingi ma left leopard, say ping ma right leopard, but in continuous manner.

[CLFNole]

hungsingclf:

All CLF has this pattern. My style (from Lee Koon Hung) does the same combo chueng ahn choy (what you call ping ahn choy) to either yum chop or yeung chop back to chueng ahn choy.

Another way to do continuous chops is with the same hand going high/low or low/high with yum & yueng chops as well as to the sides with wang deng or chueng ahn. This could also be looked at similar to the tau lau chop choy or stealing panther fist.

Peace

[hungsingclf]

clfnole, glad to hear from you. since i am in georgia, if you are ever up this way, contact me. go into chinatown for some lunch and talk shop on clf. feel free to email me at hungsingclf@yahoo.com.

[CLFNole]

Thanks for the invite. I think your in Atlanta right? It is a bit of a hike for me becuase I am in South Florida but if I ever get up there I'll try to give you a shout.

I like discussing CLF to see perspectives from other lineages. In a constructive manner. Many times we try that on this site and it turns into my way is better than your way and nothing is accomplished.

I feel that a lot can be gained from each other.

Peace.

[hungsingclf]

sounds good. hey if your interested go to sf with us in august. can meet my sifu and sigung.sifu actualy has a couple of old pics of your sifu in his studio. be a fun weekend, lots of good food at the family association,maybe you could even demo with us.

[CLFNole]

August is a tough month for me (real busy with work) but thanks for the invite. I have a box of old pictures of my sifu when he was a kid, teenager and on up. Pictures of him with many old masters including Lun Chee. I have lots of old videos from Hong Kong, however they are in PAL format so you need a PAL VCR and TV to view them. Some of this weapons were also passed on to me so I consider myself quite lucky.

I would very much like to meet your sifu some day.

Enjoy your trip.

Peace.

[hungsingclf]

no sweat, offer is always there. keep in touch and good luck with your training.

[Mika]

Leaving yourself open or being open is a matter of many factors. Inherently, all long range hand techniques leave you more open than their shorter cousins if the body is to be turned, that is, you go from left side front to right side front.

Now, this all happens in a matter of fractions of a second, so to argue whether or not this really and without a doubt and in all circumstances means anything is of little use unless we know all other variables. It depends. On you. On the technique you use. On your experience. On the opponent. Etc.
But the fact remains that every technique is Yin & Yang, win some, lose some.
Take the famous Choy Lee Fut backfist for example: if you fully succeed with it, man, it's a KO right then and there! However, should you fail with it...that's bad news for you as you have - for just 0.03 seconds - turned your back on the guy. Never a good idea. Unless you know how to do it right.

So, if Tapani's example wasn't broken down, I'll take a shot at it.

1) Left side forward - left kwa choy to the guard (through the guard, I should say). Right hand is at guard.
2) You move forward to your right side to deliver the pek choy. Right hand is moving and in front. Left hand is on the left side of the body on its way to guard the head (if it's done with a lot of power, it WILL make a (semi)circle and is thus not pulled back immediately or in a straight line).
3) Right side forward - right pek choy to the collar bone. Left hand is at guard.

2) is where you are at your most vulnerable. As you move your body forward, there is a moment where your chest is facing your opponent instead of either one of your sides. There is physically no other way to do this in a straight line. THIS is where you are, as they say, open.

Tapani, btw, has not learned Choy Lee Fut from any books (Joe mentioned books). He speaks from many years of experience. This aspect of long range Choy Lee Fut techniques is widely recognized here. It is very beneficial to know where your possible weaknesses are, be it you yourself or any techniques you might want to use.

All and all, there is no perfect technique or style, it all depends on how you use what you have. Everything always has a down side. With long range techniques it's sometimes leaving yourself open, even if it's only for a blink of an eye. An experienced fighter just might be able to take advantage of it.
(And with short range techniques it could be not being able to generate enough power or not being able accurately and with enough reach to hit a rapidly retrieving opponent, etc. etc.).

Yin & Yang, okay? :)

Cheers,

Mika

[Sow Choy]

Hi Mika,

I understand what you are saying, and the technique you mentioned definitely can happen like that.

But what it seems like to me, I may be wrong cause we are reading text not comparing actual physical movement... But it seems people describe and believe we fight exactly like our forms.

Now even CLF will differ from school to school, so I can only speak from my experience, I am from the Lee Koon Hung lineage. But this topic of being open and ying yang like you mentioned is the same even for a boxer... A boxer jabs and keeps his rear hand up and there is open for a hook, or even a counter jab.

What I mean is when Choy Lay Fut is used in fighting the stances and movements are done more natural and not as exageratted as the form...
Also the swings are done fully with the same intensity or else yes we would be very open. If I miss a swing punch and keep the intensitythrough the circle and miss... I would be way off balance and open... But if I control it and empty the arm after the miss it is easy as retracting a jab.

So maybe we train different, I have seen some who have trained years just swing wild, so I am not sure if other schools teach different...

Maybe a good topic would be to talk of how most styles keep the hands sensitive or empty after impact in order to evade being grabbed or countered...?

And I hope I didnt offend anyone, especially Timpani. The book analogy is from my experience and some comments of others...

Peace,

Joe

[Sow Choy]

Also,

If swung with full intensity... and a miss occurs... The shoulder can be dislocated very easily. Never happened to me yet, but one of my kung fu brothers was sparring and was very excited and it happened with a bad "been choy" horizontal swinging backfist.

So recovery is also important and goes hand to hand with intensity.

But no one is perfect, and no style is perfect. So I am not in disagreement, just interested in what you all have to say about preventing being open, as well as your favorite openings of the gap and counters... whats your favorite combos?

I really enjoy hearing other CLF peoples tips...

Joe

[Mika]

Joe,

You're right, forms and fighting in general are different (sometimes very different) in CLF. But if I am not mistaken, Tapani said something about sometimes having (or needing to, to execute something in a certain way) to leave yourself open under certain circumstances. I cannot recall exactly what he said, but I can think of something myself: if someone has longer legs than you and he quickly moves back after that kwa choy, then you kind of have to reach in with that pek choy in order to connect. Now, if this person is also a little taller than you (if he was a lot taller, a pek choy to the head or collar bone might not be the best thing to attempt), you would be even more open - for that split second - as you would be reaching not only forward but also a little upward.

In any case, this was just to illustrate how there are always trade-offs. What you said about the boxer holds true, but maybe he wouldn't be quite as open as the above mentioned guy with his pek choy because he is - once again, for a split second only - wide open (due to his going from left side forward to right side forward AND his left hand not having returned to guard quite yet). But if he does the same combo with shorter strikes, he's not really open at all, not at least the way I mean open here. Then it's another story altogether. But then he wouldn't have quite the same power, and if the kwa choy doesn't go through, the other guy might actually counter before the pek choy, so the whole combo is lost...or someone might slip, or maybe there's a front kick...;)

At any rate, fighting and forms are usually different in CLF as you said, but sometimes, especially since you have been doing everything in many ways, a "form-like" technique is in place. And sometimes it's not. Imagine the guy being successful with his kwa-pek...wheew...could be a devastating blow...with a lot of power.

No one was insulted, Joe :)
I was just trying say that Tapani has 12 years of Choy Lee Fut experience and has trained with some of the best around (Grandmaster Chan Yong-Fa, Sifu Mark Whelan, Sifu Barry, Sifu Lane, Sifus Markku and Martti Sipilä, etc.), so that you would know he was talking from his experience and not from having read books. And in any case, using these long-range techniques in a ring fight would be way out of the ordinary, that's absolutely true.

And I should really stop putting words to Tapani's mouth...:D

Peace :)

Mika

[Sow Choy]

Cool Mika :)

I think the combo you are illustrating is one I would't use like that, i prefer a straight line attack more to set things up a bit, and if I were to use my PeK Choy it would be right on my shoulder in a guard position... And our gwa choys circle up to the guard in sparriong/ fighting... So maybe we have a different way of execution. But anyways, I do see your point, and I think many in our family have the mindset of trying to refine our fighting techniques.

What are some of your favorite attack combos?

Peace,
Joe

[Mika]

Joe,

99 times out of a hundred, my (or most anyone's) kwa would be a short one and the hand would be back up on the guard before the other hand is committed, agree with you there. So, I guess our execution might be very close, actually. But on some occasions (especially outside the ring) some of longer techniques can find their place. And comparing Choy Lee Fut to, say, Pak Mei would also reveal something about being a little open sometimes vs. not being very open at all. But that's another story...

Favorite Choy Lee Fut combos? I'll tell you mine, if you tell me yours...;)

1) Pek choy (45 degrees)-cheung ngan choy-sow choy (say sow chui, 45 degrees upward) is a good one with the right footwork (45 degrees).

2) Cheung ngan choy (jab)-dang tsung gueuk-kwa choy-cheung ngan choy-deng gueuk is good straight line technique.

Your turn :)

BTW, Sifu Mark Whelan was known all over Asia for his absolutely devastating front hand pek choy. No matter what technique, kicks or strikes, you would throw at him, he would block it with front hand pek choy. Powerful stuff :)
You have trained with him, no?

Cheers :)

Mika

[Sow Choy]

Hi Mika,

Sorry, just got back from Taji Legacy in Texas just saw ur post...

Mark Whelan? Sounds familiar... I trained under Lee Koon Hung and now Li Siu Hung in Choy Lay Fut.

Some of my favorite combos are:

1. Leading foot sweep into straight punch, cross, sow choy, side kick and if needed more punches

2. Straight Jab, cross punch and twist step into sow choy to get around the opponent

I love to counter... thats when i enjoy it more. I find CLF style to be very sneaky and evil, ha ha ha ha!

Just kidding about the evil part, but definitely nasty. I also like to side step and throw cup choys alot... they seem safer for the opponent in sparring then sow choy...

Joe

[Askari Hodari]

My farvorite combo would be (immediately following a block): Yum Tsop (with the blocking hand) to the solar plexus, shifting into Ping (with the same hand), collapsing into gwa+kup, and finishing with Sao or Pek Choy...whichever would likely finish off my opponent.

Out of curiosity have any of you considered using the tiger or eagle claw in your CLF attacks. I have some pretty practical applications however I'd like to hear some of your opinions.

One example of how I would apply these weapons would be horizontal panther fist to the neck (adam's apple) followed by a yum tsop to the solar plexus, moving in and going for a groin grab with tiger claw and attacking the lower abdomen with kam while yanking out with the tiger (hence pushing with kam and pulling with tiger). I'd finish with a chinji pek choy to the temple.

Askari Hodari

[Shaolindynasty]

"I also like to side step and throw cup choys alot... they seem safer for the opponent in sparring then sow choy..."

I've been a big fan of the sow choy since I started CLF but I've been hearing this same thing from allot of people lately. I've been meaning to work on seting up for a gwa,kup combo more. Looks like I need to get to work on it.

A combo I've been working on is Chop(tsop) to the midsection, gwa,kup followed by a pow choy to the body or a round kick to the leg.

I also like gwa,wah, sow (not sure if you guys know what I mean) I like to clear the opponents arms with the gwa, then trap them with "wah" then hit them with the sow.

I also like to use round kicks to the inside of the leg followed by yeung chop, fun sau, yum chop

[Sow Choy]

chops to mid for me have worked in the mid of a combo...

Be careful fighting with a shot like that, unless ur opponents a bit slow, many styles train to verthorw the top, my experiences in and against wing chun have taught me to stay on top more... But whatever works for you...

I also like to throw a backfist as a fake alot...

But i teally like to use a loose twist step to get around the opponent, pretty wild how fast in can work


Joe

[Rhat]

How many of you have learned the Sup Gee Kau Da?

And what do you guys have to say about this CLF form?

Zatoichi

[CLFNole]

Anyone who has been doing CLF for some time should know this set. It varies a bit from lineage to lineage and sifu to sifu. This would be one of CLF's pillar sets, similar to Gung Gee Fook Fu Kuen of Hung Ga.

The set contains all of CLF's main techniques and is quite long so it helps build your endurance and helps teach one to breath correctly. The set is not difficult on the surface but is an excellent training set.

Peace.

[Shaolindynasty]

I'm pretty new to CLF. I've only been training CLF for about 2 years. I spent a good portion of that time on basics and ng lun ma and ng lun choi. I recently just finished siu moi fah kuen and started lohan. I train with sifu sam ng www.ngfamilymartialarts.com

We have a form called siu kow da is that similar or the same? We also have one called siu sup gee

[TenTigers]

Although I am a Hung-Ga guy, one of my Sifus also taught me Hung Sing CLF-from Ho Ngau, I believe. Anyway, we did what he referred to as figure eight punches-gwa/cup continuous across the floor. When we attack wih it,one, it usually follows a low/mid line kick as a bridge, and the gwa choy blasts through your guard. It hits the face with the fist while at the same time the forearm blasts through your guard-very close range. The cup choy then crashes down, and is followed by more of the same from the other angle, etc
We also throw chuen som geurk/lien wan kuen-front thrust heel kick, chain punches. This combination is seen in the snake section of one of our five animal forms-but the punches are biu-jee's-white snake crawls over the log. These punches are identicle to Wing Chun Chain punches and is considered a bread and butter technique in that system. The punches are only thrown when you are inside their horse-knee to knee.
Although there are no unstoppable techniques-once you have closed the gap and are inside their horse, as much as I hate to say it-they are pretty much unstoppable.
Ok, there you have it-a Hung-Ga guy showing his favorite wing chun and choy li fut techniques and saying both are unstoppable!
Now, quit yer arguing and let's get down to buisness!
All kidding aside, the Choy Li Fut techniques do not leave you open, if you are throwing them hard, fast and through your opponent. Wing Chun punches are anything but weak if you have proper structure-rooting,alignment, etc. Oh yeah, and if anyone's even THINKING of saying it-Hung-Ga isn't slow, just some parts of our forms are. (I had to say it, I hear it so **** much!)

[Mika]

It's been a while since I have been to KFO last, so it's kinda old news as far as this thread goes but...
Just have to add one more important detail.

I was looking at CLF from a street fight point of view and you were taking more the ring fight viewpoint. I automatically look at any art from the perspective of street fighting.

Those two ways of testing CLF are of course very different in their technical output, and thus leaving yourself open really only holds true when it comes to a street fight. Those big round moves were developed for a reason, not just for show. But that reason was not fighting in a ring, you're absolutely right about that.

That should explain our dissimilar opinions.

//mika

[Sow Choy]

Hey Mika,

Welcome Back...

I actually was looking at it from a street fighting point of view. Our branch has always fought with very little rules. I have had my share of street fights, evne being jumped by 4-5 people once, which made me realise the importance of both arms and how one arm is hitting someone behind you or keeping people off you...

That experience put a whole new perspective on things. Now we train 2 or 3 on 1 to help us better understand that situation...

Being open or not is a pointless debate I think, especially since we do not block alot in CLF, No one is ever fully covered anyway...

Nice to hear from you,

Joe

[Mika]

Originally posted by Sow Choy
Being open or not is a pointless debate I think, especially since we do not block alot in CLF, No one is ever fully covered anyway...

Nice to hear from you,

Joe

Maybe it is pointless, but I never actually viewed as a debate. I thought that because of my language skills (the lack thereof, naturally) I just wasn't able to express myself clearly enough. Then I thought maybe we just looked at the issue from different angles. I still don't know which is what and who said what...:D

So, what I was trying to say was that if CLF is used the way it was probably originally intended, it does leave the fighter more open than fighters in most other arts - for a split second only, of course. The upside of that is more power, of course (a 33 inch punch hurts a lot more than a 3 inch punch). Win some, lose some, as is the case with just about everything in life. But long power inherently requires leaving yourself open, otherwise it would not be long power. And long power is what CLF is known for, even if short power is utilized in the art, as well.

Anywho, I am surprised and intrigued to hear you do not block a lot, because blocks to me are something that kind of stand out in Choy Lee Fut (when compared to many other MAs). Now that I have been learning something very different (Tanglang), I think that one of the reasons for a lot of things done in CLF is due to the "fight fire with fire", i.e. a lot of blocks and "hard power", especially long, penetrating hard power. Taking this aspect away from CLF would make the art something different, IMHO. If I am not mistaken, there is a branch of CLF where short power is the order of things, but then that branch is supposed (never seen it) to be very different from Chan CLF. Using both (long and short power) of course is great and probably how many Masters of the art, past and present, would like to see it done.

I have the book by your former Grandmaster (R.I.P.) in my hands right now, and the fighting applications seem to include long techniques, and I also see blocks there. Whether this was just for the book, I do not know since I have never really seen you guys in action. But it does look like the CLF I am familiar with.

I am both curious and a little puzzled, that's all...:D

But no one is fully covered, you're absolutely right about that, be it CLF, boxing, Savate, or whatever.

And Joe, I am not trying to mess with you or anything, I am just curious (and a little frustrated with myself for not being able to express myself well enough, because what I am trying to say is an essential part of CLF, and I know you know it, but I just can't communicate it to you the right way). In the best case scenario, I, and maybe someone else, too, learn something from this discussion :)

Good to hear from you, too! :)

//mika

[Sow Choy]

No Worriess Mika,

Yeah, this medium is hard to get what we wanna say and express correctly...

And yes we have blocks, but what I was talkin about was in our theory on fighting is to use attack as a defense, you will notice in GM LKH's book, 1 or 2 blocks which turn into a barrage attack...

And I have been around the world and seen many CLF schools... We are all the same, maybe different ways of doing the forms and different flavors, but still CLF...

Take care,

Joe

[Serpent]

An attack and a block - both the same thing! ;)

[Mika]

You're right again, the world is small and all Choy Lee Fut students are brothers. No doubt about that. I am not qualified to say whether the essentials are the same within each branch, but that doesn't matter, really. And different flavors are but a richness.

Yes, blocks are used, and they are used as a means to an end. It would be self-destructive not to follow up a block.

Serpent, agree with you there, especially with blocks that actually are strikes, such as pek choy, kwa choy, cup choy, and sow choy. With certain other blocks (f.ex. chuin nao, yeung kiu) that is not always the case, if an "attack" is defined as a potentially dangerous strike to a vital area such as the face. But everything is modifiable, and that along with the fact that defense equals offense, as you said, makes CLF a truly great art :)

//mika

[Serpent]

An "attack" is not just something that goes to a vital area. Why try to get through to the head and body when your opponent has arms that are trying to hit you? Start by disabling the arms - lots of ching jong and sarm sing! ;)

You don't think that chuin nao and yeung kiu can be offensive? Well, there's something for you to meditate on right there! ;)

[diego]

Originally posted by Sow Choy
Also,

If swung with full intensity... and a miss occurs... The shoulder can be dislocated very easily. Never happened to me yet, but one of my kung fu brothers was sparring and was very excited and it happened with a bad "been choy" horizontal swinging backfist.



off topic but this is interesting to me and it reminds me of something i read about bruce lee...he did a roundhouse kick in the air and broke his own ribs...his doctor mentioned that he had too much muscle around his ribs or something!?

definatly makes one analyze how they apply their movements...not much of a point but thanks you made me realize something about how i should go about training....maybe years of meditation in horse stance like the shaolin legends isn't just to test they charachter....make you relax more so you don't get excited and overpower yourself lol.peace

[Mika]

Originally posted by Mika
..if an "attack" is defined as a potentially dangerous strike to a vital area such as the face. But everything is modifiable, and that along with the fact that defense equals offense, as you said, makes CLF a truly great art :)

//mika

Serpent, there lies the answer to your question; asked and answered ;)

To me, attacking is a state of mind, not something dependent on techniques. To some, that is not the case. I respect their point of view, as well, and try to communicate that right off to avoid any confusion :)