Here ya go, Eyebrows

[Toby]

This'll get you started:

Chan K, Qin L, Lau M, Woo J, Au S, Choy W, Lee K, Lee S. "A randomized, prospective study of the effects of Tai Chi Chun(sic) exercise on bone mineral density in postmenopausal women." Arch Phys Med Rehabil 2004;85:717–22.

I'm even providing references for you :rolleyes:. See how easy it is?

Here's one for me:

Frost H.M. "Why do marathon runners have less bone than weight lifters? A vital-biomechanical view and explanation" Bone Vol 20 Issue 3, 1997.

Discuss.

<edit>No links, sorry</edit>

[rubthebuddha]

links? :confused:

[Toby]

In response to this (http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=31105&perpage=15&pagenumber=9) godawful thread. I didn't want to subject (generic) you to that horror, so click at your own peril.

[rubthebuddha]

I'm even providing links for you links? :confused:

[Toby]

Oh, right. Sorry :(. I had the links, but decided to not post them because I'm going through the internal university system so I think I get "magic" privileges in accessing them. Anyway, I found them via ScienceDirect (http://www.sciencedirect.com) so you can try that. I thought if I published the bibliographic data that people could probably find them themselves. If you can't, I'll post abstracts/relevant info.

:o :o

[rubthebuddha]

I had the links links?:confused:




i keed, i keed. stating a claim then quoting expert opinion and siting research is the standard in the scientific community. your support and evidence is all there for anyone else to scrutinize. so just make your claim here (example: the body responds to heavy lifties by increasing bone density. as with most other physiological adaptations of the body, it is a specific response to a specific stimulus. if the body consistently lifts heavy things, it will adjust its composition to make those lifts safer/easier/simpler/etc. if the body is consistently deprived of cardio, the next time you go run a mile with your marathoner girlfriend, you'll be sucking air faster than the superdome's (http://www.superdome.com/site.php) HVAC (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HVAC) system. the body is naturally lazy, and it'll only adapt to the stimulus it receives. ask it to do 30 pushups, it will become able to do that, but not much more. ask it do do 30 pushups while wearing a weigted vest, it will adjust itself accordingly. ask it to do 30 pushups with a chevy suburban on its back, you will then have magnus samuelson)

[Toby]

Here's the first link (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=MImg&_imagekey=B6WB6-4CC1YX4-4-3&_cdi=6702&_orig=search&_coverDate=05%2F31%2F2004&_sk=999149994&view=c&wchp=dGLbVzz-zSkzk&_acct=C000028118&_version=1&_userid=554529&md5=7381916a8167c35d6d15f6d6809a753f&ie=f.pdf) and here's the 2nd (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=MImg&_imagekey=B6T4Y-3RJ9105-2-1&_cdi=4987&_orig=search&_coverDate=03%2F31%2F1997&_sk=999799996&view=c&wchp=dGLbVzb-zSkzk&_acct=C000028118&_version=1&_userid=554529&md5=408fc165bcff73f01aa8e77da241fce4&ie=f.pdf).

Bastidge! :mad:

Now, I'm pretty sure they're not gunna work because of the little "userid" and "acct" bits in the URL. But you can try anyway, Captain Pain-in-the-Ass :p.

Since I'm playing fill-in-the-gaps, here's the premise according to Eyebrows (from the other thread):
Originally posted by blooming lotus
I'm working on bone and muscle density without the need for weights............(Iron), toby and ford have a sustem that works , quite obviously, but I think it's unneccessary, and I'm going to prove it............the jury is still out on how best to go about it, but leave it with me and no dout, youll know when I'm solidly convinced rehash is unneccessary...I especially like this bit: "I'm going to prove it" :D.

I tried to help her by finding some stuff to help her on her way. The TCC paper doesn't really help her much - (summary) TCC people did 45min TCC 5days/wk for a yr and didn't lose bone density as much as the control group. But they still lost density. The title just kinda jumped out at me while searching, though. The other paper is pretty much summed up by the title.

Now it ain't my premise, it's Eyebrows'. I'm sure she'll jump in her eventually to tell us her "theory". I, OTOH, well, you know where I stand. Bone density is best maximised by lifting. Muscle density is best maximised by strength lifting. If/when she decides to argue, I'll dig up some more/better papers. This was just to start it for her.

[blooming lotus]

the way you speak, it's as though , based on absolute no prior knowledge I have created these concepts with absolutely no correlating support directly or otherwise........
As supposed learned folks in this field, innovative thinking and challengind old methods should be standard............but you're so busy telling me I'm wrong, you just refuse to open your mind to eveloution and better insight .............to be honest, it's extremely boring and unstimulating....

What RTB says makes alot of logical sense, and you'd think so......right?.....so why do you suppose it is that even though aside from bwe I do no resistence yet can rock up to a gym and lift weights much heavier than I am ( ie:- body weight) and generally neeeed to lift that much just to feel challenged?????


On density, I know what the research says to support your statement, however, I have often encountered people who do no weights ( like the boys out at shaolin for example), yet have Iron palm skills that hit with ample fajing and absorb the impact more than sufficiently.........so much so, that they made Iron skill qigong famous........

I think there would e be slight variables from women to men on the exact way to do this, but I'm thinking nutritional changes coupled with a good jow and some hand conditioning........not sure exactly what I'll change, but I'll consider it a little further as my new regime develops and settles............


PS......TOBY : thankyou for constantly insulting me, ( ie:- the whole eyebrows thing)it's reassuring to know I don't give 2 sh*s for your asthetic approval :rolleyes: .........don't worry.....there will be no counter insult, I can just argue on merit of knowledge.

cheers

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
so why do you suppose it is that even though aside from bwe I do no resistence yet can rock up to a gym and lift weights much heavier than I am ( ie:- body weight) and generally neeeed to lift that much just to feel challenged?????





on this point, and this is one for Iron because we've discussed this before, why also, would you explain to me, is that after only several days of quite heavy weights, and without really consuming a great deal of carbs, I immediately turned into hulk woman????prior yrs of conditining????I dunno...........I hate that look though and that's a huge reason why I don't do heavy weights.......I'll try again in the nxt week with high reps and low weight , but considering bwe ........I'm really not sure there's a point............maybe bwe is the most effective proportion of weight to lift and train with............



according to your information .........:confused: ..........happens every time without fail..............

[blooming lotus]

considered this after last nights' wkout and obviously, when you lift your muscles are retaining more blood from the extra load, as opposed to actual solid mass and ..generally after a heavy lift sesh, I 'll give myself 2-3days max before even doing a push up or dip or whatever to allow for deflation................dong...........I understand......however, for all intents and purposes, heavy weights do ( because of the pump) give you the appearance of increased size......


thx anyway:p

[IronFist]

Pumping blood into your muscles gives you a pump. The simulus doesn't matter. Throwing 100 punches gives me a deltoid pump (100 punches is obviously equivalent to high reps). Benching my 12RM gives me a pump. Squatting my 3RM gives me a pump. The resistance doesn't matter. All that matters is that you sufficiently pump blood into the muscle. Look at your calves after you run a mile or two. That's VERY high reps and most people still get a calf pump from that.

You're not turning into hulk woman. You lack the testosterone to do that. Sorry, it's part of being a woman. If you weigh yourself before and after you'll find that you weigh the same (provided you don't drink a lot of water in between weighings).

You're not going to get big. Look at all the guys (with 20x the testosterone of you) in the gym that have been trying to get big for the past few years and that are still skinny. If they have so much trouble, it's not going to just happen for you.

[Serpent]

Unless Eyebrows is actually a man.......

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by IronFist
You're not turning into hulk woman.




. If you weigh yourself before and after you'll find that you weigh the same (provided you don't drink a lot of water in between weighings).

You're not going to get big. Look at all the guys (with 20x the testosterone of you) in the gym that have been trying to get big for the past few years and that are still skinny. If they have so much trouble, it's not going to just happen for you.


:rolleyes: figure of speech on the hulking silly and I hate to break it you Ironfist but you're wrong. I am nearly 10 yrs older than you and it's been happening to me since you were in elementary school........ I have of course done the pre and post workout weighs and you've already agreed with me way back that weight varies right throughout the day regardless and more radically post wkout sesh of any kind........I explained that it was a temporary condition and not actual mass, hence the deflation period and why in the long term these folks are such hard gainers...........doesn't change the fact I get bigger bulked looking than I think is acceptable for a little chick and it is a direct result of lifting heavy weights.

[Toby]

Eyebrows, I didn't make the "Eyebrows" moniker up, I just thought it apt. Sorry that if offends you (probably won't stop me, though ;)).

Anyway, I started the topic because I thought it a genuinely interesting one. I'd certainly be interested in your thoughts on the matter, although I doubt (from the other thread) that there are methods more effective to maximising bone and muscle density than weightlifting. Even if there were, I reckon you'd have a hard time proving it. But yeah, I'm interested. Fire away.

*vain attempt at getting on-topic*

[IronFist]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
:rolleyes: figure of speech on the hulking silly and I hate to break it you Ironfist but you're wrong.

Yeah, um, I don't think I said anything that was wrong.


I explained that it was a temporary condition and not actual mass, hence the deflation period and why in the long term these folks are such hard gainers

The duration of a "pump" has NOTHING to do with someone's ability to gain mass. They're hard gainers because they are ectomorphs. That's the only reason. A pump isn't even required to gain muscle.

Once again, you are a girl. You have much much much much much less testosterone than a guy (unless you're juicing) and you WILL NOT GET BIG MUSCLES. (unless you're a genetic freak, which you're not, because I saw your pics and you're totally an ectomorph)

[Ford Prefect]

Why do you guys bother? She's either a very good troll. If she is, I applaud him/her because it truly is a great job. Or she's just one of those people who has the world figured out and ignored anything that doesn't jive with her view of the world. Either way, its a lose-lose situation.

[IronFist]

^ now THAT is the correct.

[blooming lotus]

:rolleyes: at ford and his ego and the poor guy who needs his back up............



If you understand what I'm getting at iron, I said that mass and pump is a different concept..........duration is nothing.....load matters, hence you guys and your " I can lift 300"....."well I can lift 350" and so on...........


where you were wrong Iron, was in saying that If I lift heavy weight m physical size doesn't increase.........I've proven it to myself, regardless of text book correlation with varying diets and time of day etc etc........you are wrong......deal with it.........

Ps.....you say chicks can't grow bulk ha??..........exomorph or no...........check out some body building sites

:rolleyes:

[Serpent]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
:rolleyes: at ford and his ego and the poor guy who needs his back up............



If you understand what I'm getting at iron, I said that mass and pump is a different concept..........duration is nothing.....load matters, hence you guys and your " I can lift 300"....."well I can lift 350" and so on...........


where you were wrong Iron, was in saying that If I lift heavy weight m physical size doesn't increase.........I've proven it to myself, regardless of text book correlation with varying diets and time of day etc etc........you are wrong......deal with it.........

Ps.....you say chicks can't grow bulk ha??..........exomorph or no...........check out some body building sites

:rolleyes:

Barking. Completely bloody barking.

Ford, you are so correct, but it's kinda funny to play along anyway. It's like poking something with a stick when you're really bored.

[IronFist]

Large female bodybuilders use hormones. It's the only way. You're not going to look like this (http://213.200.210.101/female-bodybuilders/annie-rivieccio/annie-rivieccio.jpg) without drugs. I don't give a crap what kind of freak ass genetics you have. It's not going to happen without lots and lots of drugs and lots and lots of hard work. Steroids don't = mass. Steroids + hard training + big eating = mass. If you don't eat enough you don't gain size. There are lots of people who do steroid cycles and don't gain more than a few pounds because their eating and training was off.

Or this (http://213.200.210.101/female-bodybuilders/nadia-nardi/nadia-nardi-2.jpg).

Or this (http://213.200.210.101/female-bodybuilders/heike-jung/heike-jung.jpg).

And definately not this (http://213.200.210.101/female-bodybuilders/heike-jung/heike-jung-3.jpg).

So once again,
Ps.....you say chicks can't grow bulk ha??..........exomorph or no...........check out some body building sites

I didn't say chicks can't get big. Chicks can't get very big naturally. Chicks with drugs and spot on diets and training can.

Obviously if a chick looks like that she's on drugs. But sometimes you can tell from the side effects, too; excessive body hair, manly looking faces (growth hormone can change certain bones), enlarged c.litorises (if you see down there), etc.

[IronFist]

Just in case it wasn't clear, you're not going to look like this (http://www.frsa.com/bbpix/kimthomp.jpg) without drugs.

[CaptinPickAxe]

chicks like that make me gag.

[red5angel]

I'd do her

[CaptinPickAxe]

says the man who downed 24 Bass':D

[red5angel]

menos bente quatro Bass I'd still do her!!!! :D

[blooming lotus]

" to be successful you need to think outside the box"


Donald Trump



but if you're all too scared to challenge yourselves and are affraid of looking silly, I undestand your insecurities.........I'm a counsellor you know ;) :cool:

[Serpent]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
" to be successful you need to think outside the box"


Donald Trump




but if you're all too scared to challenge yourselves and are affraid of looking silly, I undestand your insecurities.........I'm a counsellor you know ;) :cool:
You think outside the box by quoting Chuck Norris and Donald Trump?!

Geez, please counsel yourself for a while. I mean, really try to look at yourself objectively and consider how others percieve you and what that might indicate about yourself.

You talking about other people's insecurities is the biggest pot kettle black scenario on these boards to date.

[blooming lotus]

there is nothing insecure about me................


yup.........I'll quote the greats of any art where applicable when I agree with what they're saying.............


I look at myself objectively daily, however, I don't care for your opinion.............I do care for you developent though and will get my message accross ( or at least attempt ) regardless of your attitude to it...............wrong or right, it's another insight and that's gotta be good thing in human assessment.....................


take your ammo and use it, if it's your objective....but I probably know more about you intimately than you realise..............

[Toby]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
...but I probably know more about you intimately than you realise.............. She's been playing with her blow-up Serpent doll again :eek: :D.

[Vash]

Originally posted by Toby
She's been playing with her blow-up Serpent doll again :eek: :D.

Dang! The salesman told me mine was one of a kind . . . :eek:

[rubthebuddha]

either that, or serpent's now going to think that bl planted those hidden cameras in his house instead of you, vash. you're off the hook! :D

[Serpent]

I know Vash planted the cameras. That's why I dance for him every night before bed.

bl - why don't you tell me what you intimately know about me and I'll be honest in my assessment of your comments. I dare ya...

[blooming lotus]

can you do that spinny thing again???....I like that :P

[Vash]

I'll tell y'all, there's a reason they call him Serpent :eek:

(. . . cuz of all the scales . . .)

[Serpent]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
can you do that spinny thing again???....I like that :P

Sounds like you're avoiding the question.....

[blooming lotus]

is that the time??? ;)



Ps. I'm not doing it to you so let it go......

[Serpent]

You're a really pointless person, you know that?

:rolleyes:

[blooming lotus]

why....'cause I refuse to humiliate you or put you on show but you like it anyway??????

sure thing babes :rolleyes: