Yuen Kay San branch

[JasBourne]

Anyone here train Yuen Kay-San branch, as opposed to Yip Man (and other worthies) branches? I was reading the Rene Ritchie book on Yuen Kay-San, and had a question about the kneeling move against a low sweep.

[dzu]

JasBourne,

I have been taught Yuen Kay San WC albeit a slightly different version than Rene's, but I don't have the experience in that particular system that he has. It's sometimes confusing when switching between Yip Man and YKS systems only because they are similar with small differences. Just enough to be confusing if I'm not mindful of what I'm doing. If anything it forces me to be more aware !

regards,

Dzu
:D

[JasBourne]

well, ok maybe you can help anyway. The way the movement is shown, you use the kneeling stance to trap the sweep. I can see the kneeling stance being useful in a lot of ways, but frankly, why would one go to all the trouble of kneeling on the sweep when one is in the perfect position to give the ankle or knee a REALLY good stomp?

[dzu]

A couple reasons I can think of.

First off, consider that sweeps may can come from a contact reference as well as from a distance

What I mean by this is that the opponent can try a kick or a sweep once in contact with your leg. Controlling his leg using chi gerk and then kneeling down can disrupt his center of gravity by dropping your weight down onto his leg. NOt only is there potential for knee damage, but you prevent him from running away and your tools are still in range to continue should you choose to do so.

From a distance, it could be a means of intercepting the sweep without knowing the exact path of the incoming leg. I put myself in a better position since I am intercepting his leg rather than waiting for it and trying to catch it at the end of ots path where the power is greatest. This lessens the power that I have to receive from the sweep as well as disrupting his timing and structure and lets me use my bent knee on his shin. I'n essence it would be like him kicking the corner of a table with his shin. I also don't have to worry about being knocked down if I miss trying to kick his ankle since I am already low to the groun anyways.

In Gu Lao WCK the kneeling punch is called Gwai Ma Choi.

In YKS or YM WC it's just an application of a shifting punch (Pien San Jik Chung Choi) at the lower gate. Hope that helps.

Regards,
Dzu

[JasBourne]

actually, it does, thanks. I'll consider what you've described :)

[kungfu cowboy]

Maybe I am not picturing it right, but it sounds like a dangerously inefficient move that would be: difficult to pull off, not the best option, and could possibly unbalance you if they pulled back suddenly, and/or leaving you in a position vulnerable to attack.

[dzu]

kubgfu cowboy,

Which move are you referring to? In close or at a distance?

I presented a couple applications that are just as effective as any other under the right circumstances and used with the correct timing and positioning.

If in contact with my opponent, I have only my chi gerk skills to feel his legs. If I have control of his center and have disrupted his structure, then I can choose whatever response is dictated by the pressure I feel. I have used some form of this in chi sau, but obviously not all the way to the ground since I do not wish to injure my partner. The initiation is subtle enough that I can adjust if he pulls back or if I need to step or shift. If I feel that it's working i can choose to continue, if not I change to something else.

THis is just one application of Gwai Ma Choi that I have seen. I could also use it to drop low and punch my opponent in the groin if he punches at my head. Could I get kicked in the head? Yes. But I could just as easily get kicked in the groin if I were to do a Tan Da instead to defense the punch.

There is more than one way to apply the concept, and some ways are better than others at dealing with particular circumstances. This is not the only way to apply it, merely one possible way. Perhaps you can think of several that I have not thought of yet?


BTW, I recall hearing a long time ago of a story about how either Yip Man or Yuen Kay San used this against a sweep during a challenge match.

I also heard a story of how Yip Man was at the horse races one day with a student and a thief tried to pick his pocket from behind. According to his student, Yip Man felt the attempt, quickly turned and kicked the thief in the jaw and knocking him out.

Neither are exactly text book WC as typically described or demonstrated, but they can work

Maybe if you clarify a bit we can discuss this further.

regards,

Dzu

[kungfu cowboy]

Um, either one, I guess. :D I am seeing an in close twisting, dropping say my left knee to strike while being flat-footed on the right. Hmmm, trying it in the air a few times, I see how this might be used, if not really committed balance wise to the knee drop, you have a good root, and keep your guard up. Is this close? And how low are you going with the knee strike?

As for dropping a knee strike to pin a sweep? It seems too risky. I think you'd need super fast reflexes, timing, and if you miss; ouch!! :eek:

[dzu]

kungfu cowboy,

What you described is pretty close to what I was talking about. It doesn't take a lot of pressure to break the structure of the leg/knee, just good position and sensitivity. You can ride the leg all the way down to the ground if you want to be really mean. I don't just drop my weight, but give it a forward component as well to stick with the opponent.

From a distance, when I try to apply this I don't wait for the sweep to complete its arc. I close the distance to intercept before it has a chance to reach full power. I want to occupy the space he is trying to reach with my body so that when he gets there my structure is conneted to the ground already. He attacks first but I arrive first. It's no different than trying to use Tan Da or Pak Da against a punch.

We train this moving forward and also stationary. Knee height can vary, but we usually go all the way down when doing drills. Just don't slam your knee into the floor!

People with bad knees probabaly shouldn't practice it though.

regards,

Dzu

[kungfu cowboy]

Hmmm, the more I think about it, the more I like it! :D

[reneritchie]

Hey Dzu,

Great reply. That's basically how I learned it and practice it. Like many things, it takes timing to pull off, and depends on context. The story in the YKS book stems from one of Sum Nung's students seeing the moving and wondering if it really worked or not. Sum Nung replied he'd seen Yip Man use it that way in a fight.

According to some early students, Yip Man taught it in the beginning as well but later dropped it because he didn't think it held up well to the aging process.

Hope all's well, and everyone over here salutes you!

Rene Ritchie

[Roy D. Anthony]

The move is called Kwai Sat in the Yip Man System, and we still teach it today. Quite effective even if you miss the knee , you trap the leg inside the Lower Bridge, the area between your Knee and foot, ( the Shin Area) Quite an effective technique indeed.
And they say there's no Ground fighting in WIng Chun!!!!