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Hendrik
07-19-2004, 08:00 PM
Chan is not a philosophy and Damo's students doesnt have to eat curry.



People might say, oh no, not chan again.

You know, Chan has been post alots here and used in the CMA as a charm to ward-off anything they want. But, take a good look at the so Called Chan. it is not Chan at all.


OK, So what is Chan?

simple, Chan is a teaching of a methodology for PRACTICE to attain the non-dual state or Samadhi or proper -Stillness or if you want to call it free of attach awareness or awareness without identify it as anything but capable to identify it as everything if needed.

There are three stage in the training until the state of Aware but not identified become the by default.

Thus, it said,
first one sees mountain is mountain and river is river.
second one sees mountain is not mountain and river is not river.
Then, finally, mountian is mountain and river is river.

Yup. That is Chan.


So, what does it means about that non-dual,... awareness without identify it as anything?


USing an example in WCK.
Say, when one is "listening " in chi sau. But, one doesnt commit to use any technics yet. That is the simplified or very general or surface way of describing the awareness without identify it as anything state.

Using an example in Spiral Dynamic.
Say, when one is "aware"in daily living. But, one doesnt identify one as any memes or any of the 8 levels of conciousness yet.


So, Chan teaching is about how to attain the state where one doesnt by default or habitually fall into any identify. Chan training is about how to practice a certain meditation to realized the samadhi or the proper stillness state in daily living.


So, what is the big deal about this Chan stuffs in daily living? The big deal or the little deal is one has clear choice of what one wants instead of getting spiral into and trap or one can know all memes or types of conciousness but not by default or habitually stuck into one.

So, what is the big deal about this Chan Stuff interm of WCK practice? The big deal or the small deal is one has a clear choice of what technics one is going to use instead of become a programmed by default habit where others can read one's pattern. It is about mastering changes.


Chan was written in different Wing CHun Kuen Kuit even from LJ. That is the way how the ancestors record the theory of training in the AWARENESS platform. ( notice, it doesnt tell about any single technics but pure Awareness platform) and the Chi Sau is an implementation of this theory. ----- Listen and Dont think.

Why? because when one think. one starts with identify a conciousness a memes, a subjective experience. There one spiral into a habit, a program. and the life-spand of that latching into the spiral,( ie falling in love ) has to do with how fast/slow one can release one from the identity or shift away to different identity. Time is non linear here it is no longer mechanical time.


It is very strange to see the teaching of Chan which is the methodology to liberate or free from fix identify interpreted into as philosophy, into ten thousand names of hands or bridges..... or ten thousand sets....

Obviously, someone doesnt understant what Chan is about at all. Not to mention have the training of Chan to experience what is what.





You know why the Zen monk asked " how do you look like before your parents was born?" that is trying to break your habit of identity and break the habitual reaction.

You know why the Zen monk said " there is not a thing, how does it collect dust?" that is trying to communicate the awareness or the samadhi or the proper stillness is always clear and clean and free.


Since I am not the Buddha or the Chan Patriach. The above is my view from my Memes :D take it if it helps you leave it to garbage if it doesnt help.

For those who link Chan to the eight proper path.... well, check it out, if you cant "see" your memes or type of conciousness as in the spiral dynamics how do you change it?

Nice logical thoughts fly through the mind doesnt control the action. The memes does. So, one needs Chan practice to "Know". hahahaha



" how do you look like before your parents was born?" hehehe
Dont use your habitual conciousness to reply. For that habitual is the one tailor your life or your reaction. Comeone, use something different. You have a choice. :D

But then, hahaha all what I wrote up here is just an Emulation of my Memes or conciousness. This is still not the real thing. it is just the first state, mountain is mountain and river is river of understanding with our conciousness. Not real attainment of that non attached of identity awareness. I am just a parrot copying someone's teaching. :)

Dont expect I am all correct too I am not the Buddha and not a Chan Monk. you have the same AWERENESS as me. So check it out, in Gym, in meditation, while chi sau, while sparing (Ernie will love this ) , while in shower... everywhere you are it... ( but beware when you are AWARE you will not get involve. So dont do it when you have a dinner date or your spouse is going to blame me on your NOT CARING!) ....


A myth is the Shao lin or CMA is that. Why the heck those story keep Identify the Shao Lin Top Chan monks as ANTI-QING? where the teaching and practice of of Damo of Shao Lin in the first hand Chan is about hey let go your identity. instead of "you must eat curry like me. "

Beats me. and you might know the reason why. I dont know. :D

sincerely appology to those who dont like this post. But, may be you want to look at Chan differently?


note:

seriously, China is in a survival mode from 1830 up to decades ago. we shouldnt blame the past ancestors who might miss lead us from some of thier story. We are in a great peacefull time where research and deep search is possible and information is easy to grasp. I must say this because it is not fair for the ancestors if we use today's standard to rate thier understanding in Chan. They dont have time but has to run for survival, while we can sit in standford university library with aconditioning drinking coca cola reading all about Chan and call up some Chan patriach with Cell phones to conform things. I like to make jokes but in all means we need to respect all those from different lineages and style who make thier best effort to passed the art to us who live in a very bad era. without them there is no us.

taltos
07-19-2004, 08:14 PM
This thread is already doomed.

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE let's not even take another step down this slippery path...

-Levi

planetwc
07-19-2004, 08:20 PM
Live in the moment and minimize the occurences of living on "autopilot" in terms of mental and physical response to the world around us eh?

Hendrik
07-19-2004, 08:22 PM
Originally posted by planetwc
Live in the moment and minimize the occurences of living on "autopilot" in terms of mental and physical response to the world around us eh?

Yup. Living in NOW! Living in this Instant!

That is the omni awareness, immoveable heart, the unflattered wisdom, the prajna paramita, the prajna wisdom, the Buddha nature......... all those terms.

Remember the feeling the conciousness just right before we got that slap from our sifu while we are doing Chi Sau?
There is a Black out? there is a freezed? feel like the no way out?
that is when our AWARENESS was blank out because we are heavily attached or stuck in a certain of our memes or our habits or our movements. See, these stuffs manifest in our conciousness, our feeling, our thoughts, or/and our physical action...etc

that hendrik identify is a troublesome stuffs to deal with. it runs on its own sometimes. :D

PS: now a day, with the brain wave technology, yes, we can identify if the person is in which state in general -- meditative aware or latched with thoughts.

Hendrik
07-19-2004, 08:30 PM
Originally posted by taltos
This thread is already doomed.

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE let's not even take another step down this slippery path...

-Levi

relax. you can be right.

I cant be totally right. I still use that hendrik conciousness with his memes and he is just a parot copying Damo.

Relax and having some fun. dont be rigid.

let me sing an old song :D

I started a joke, which started the whole world crying,
but I didn't see that the joke was on me, oh no.

I started to cry, which started the whole world laughing,
oh, if I'd only seen that the joke was on me.

I looked at the skies, running my hands over my eyes,
and I fell out of bed, hurting my head from things that I'd said.




hmmmm, if I dont attach to the identity hendrik will I fall out of bed? :D probably not I think. what do you think?

taltos
07-19-2004, 10:17 PM
I think I stand by my original assessment.

Hendrik
07-20-2004, 08:31 AM
So, with the Chan teaching above we can explore different things:


1, there is a different with the term "just do it."


IN ZEn , Just do it is an action taken aware without latch to any identity and aware of the consequence.

IN Animal instinc, Just do it is an impluse generated with deeply identify and attach to the indentity and ignore the consequence even if aware.



2, Awareness Training needs the support of Physical Platform

This is the classical case of why Damo or Boddhidharma create the Localized Evolution Yoga and name it Yi Jing Ying.

See, if the hardware doesnt work well. the software is going to be getting trouble.

If the spine is not lively, if the blood is not pumping to the brain. how can one expect the awareness going to be train?


3, As the saying in WCK:

Comes accept, Goes send, using the silence to subdue action, un-engage trust forward.

Replace that Silence into AWARENESS. and the rest of the sayings look at them in an not latched into identify an identity view. Then one shall see the big picture --- living in NOW.

But then, as Tottle says in his book -- the power of NOw. if one doesnt know the thinker is not the self. one has become the slave of the thoughts. (one will not "know" that AWARENESS.) So, that is related to watching the thinker as Krimamurti put it. if my memory is right.

All of these can be link up in our era because we have access to lots of imformation in this imformation era. be it from east from west.... from everywhere. we can put the idea and practice to use to further evolve, grow, and improve.


4, As the saying in WCK:

if one have fear of being hit will be hit. but dont greedy to attack.

That also refer to the not taken an identity but keep the Awareness. provided one's physical body is well train. When the Awareness require action and the physical body can't response that is another form of identify itself in an identity also.


5, Yes, There are different Kung Fa or capability training methodology in different martial art styles.

IE: the pro-swimmer train his/her body different then a pro-weight lifter.
And it is a taboo in CMA about this Kung Fa teaching.

The sequence seems to be like:
1, ok to teach set but not teach application
2, ok to teach application but not teach Kung FA
3, ok to teach Kung Fa but not teach the theory behind it
4, ok to teach theory but not teach the Key components or Kuits

So, layers and layers of boundaries are there.

These boundaries are just boundaries. They can be due to certain people's selfishness, to protect the rice bow for his family, to protect from betrayal, to not let others copy and make claim (such as one can see alots of these today) , to preventive to create monster or bandits who destroy society or become a paint of society. mostly, only the indoor students got this training, it ofcorse doesnt promise to become the best fighter. but it does preserve the DNa of the wave of the Localization Evolution.


one will also see different kung fa was import into a system when the leader seems an inadequecy or weakness or wanting to improve the system training. This is very common in CMA history.
IE:
If I am not wrong I read some where in the Asia CMA forum ( i might be, please Check me Rene) I recalled GM SN induced the Kidney Qi return to the origine into the YKS lineage.



6, even it is based on similar AWARENESS platform.
Different Style has different Kung Fa design to train the physical platform.

in term of Buddhism cultivation of this AWARENESS itself. The esoteric Buddhism such as the tibetian buddhism has different physical/breathing capability training compare with the Damo's ancient Shao Lin training.
The Emei Buddhism has a different training compare with the Damo's method. In fact, the Emei 12 Zhuang has a physical training platform which is unique and can carry one through 9 levels of samadhi states.


In term of martial arts:

Say, the Localization Evolution Yoga or Yi Jing Jing are great and expert in Twisting similar to its YOga sister ( according to Theory of Localization Evolution one can always see the DNA or image of the previous Wave), So one can see, in general, The Shao Lin Kuen based in this twisting platform.


Say, in Chen Taiji, they have the silk reeling, that is thier trade mark. So, in general, one can see, the Chen application and power generation based in this silk reeling platform.

Say, White CRane of Fujian, they have the vibrate body and San Chin. So, in general, one can see, the white crane application are very San Chin and Vibrating shock....

But, in WCK there must be a different Kung Fa which fit into the style of methodology of WCK. That platform exist. This is also one of the layers which identify the identity of WCK. among with other signature.

WCK doesnt fit well with the Chen reel silk platform because that reel is too wide. WCK doesnt fit well with the Yi JIng JIng twist because that twist is too Kang ( hard and abrupt)

WCK doesnt fit well with the White CRane shaking body method of training because WCK use SLT instead of SanChin like methodology. Eventhought, WCK does indeed adapt White CRane's applications at one point in the localization evolution.


On similarity or differences.
One of my experience was that. about 27 years ago, I was doing Kyokushin's Tenso. I love tenso alots because it is softer then SanChin. I show that to the late Cho Hong-Choy and tell him the similarity with the Cin jeon ( arrow palm set) and SLT of Yik Kam's teaching. Cho smilely gave me a tour to different layers of the platform to let me see the different. He actually did the same tour when one of his student who is a well known hung gar master substitute Iron Wire Stuffs into the Cho SLT. ( a localization evolution act, a nature process. )

Since I am not professional WCner ( and actually I am far far away from his carible and his ability in fighting) similar to Late Cho Hung-Choy who 80% of his life is about investigating and training in WCK. But Cho's lead tour into a different layers of the platform did given me a good grasp of what is Yik Kam's set. what is not.
There are layers and layers of platform there. the ancestors are indeed deep. so, if someone copy something on the surface one knows is it or is it not via going one level down to look for the signature.

just some view.

Hendrik
07-20-2004, 08:35 AM
Originally posted by taltos
I think I stand by my original assessment.

That is perfectly ok.

world needs different ideas and different view and different believe.

Even Damo's student doesnt have to eat curry right?

PaulH
07-20-2004, 04:58 PM
"Remember the feeling the conciousness just right before we got that slap from our sifu while we are doing Chi Sau?
There is a Black out? there is a freezed? feel like the no way out?
that is when our AWARENESS was blank out because we are heavily attached or stuck in a certain of our memes or our habits or our movements. See, these stuffs manifest in our conciousness, our feeling, our thoughts, or/and our physical action...etc - Hendrik"

I don't know, Hendrik! It's hard not to blank out when you are hurt! I know that when I got kicked in the thigh/knee, all my nerves would be screaming! =) I'm curious on how do you cope with this problem? Thanks!

Hendrik
07-20-2004, 06:11 PM
Originally posted by PaulH
"

I don't know, Hendrik! It's hard not to blank out when you are hurt!

I know that when I got kicked in the thigh/knee, all my nerves would be screaming! =) I'm curious on how do you cope with this problem? Thanks!



if you want to ABSENT MINDEDLY walk into someone's kick then what can others do? nothing :D

PaulH
07-20-2004, 06:44 PM
You know it is not that I like to but it's the other fella who insists on it! Too fast for me to do anything about it. I like the 36th stratagem - run! =)

Hendrik
07-20-2004, 08:07 PM
Originally posted by PaulH
You know it is not that I like to but it's the other fella who insists on it! Too fast for me to do anything about it. I like the 36th stratagem - run! =)

great idea!
Run is great! why not? :D
see, you know how to solve your problem.

Vajramusti
07-20-2004, 10:34 PM
Hendrik sez:

Chan is not a philosophy and Damo's students doesnt have to eat curry.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
True in a discursive sense. But epistemology is also in a sense
philosophy.

Curry has become unfortunately a very broad term covering a wide ramge of contradictions.

But in Damo's time the new world and its inahabitants hadnt been
discovered bya lost Italian sailor yet. What Damo ate in South India during the Pallava dynasty was probably based on rice and
vegetable products and lentils-possibly turmeric, bay leaf, cilantro,
ginger, cinnamon, cumin and a few other things.

There would have not been any chillies, squash, potatoes, peanuts, chocolate, tomatoes. corn. tobacco products and quite a few other things in his intake or that of the Chinese around him...
those and many other products from the New World folks gave a
major boost to the old world.

Without the chili and the peanuts- no kung pao chicken for Damo
or his compadres.

Not to mention the silver and gold from the new world that helped finace new colonial ventures.. rather than the Pallava dynasty ships one of which probably carried Damo to Canton via Cam Ran Bay..

Hendrik
07-21-2004, 07:17 AM
Originally posted by Vajramusti


Without the chili and the peanuts- no kung pao chicken for Damo
or his compadres.

Not to mention the silver and gold from the new world that helped finace new colonial ventures.. rather than the Pallava dynasty ships one of which probably carried Damo to Canton via Cam Ran Bay..

Joy,

Is Damo a vegiterian? :D
OK Damo can eat Pizza!

I re-called DAmo's Sifu asked Damo to not stay in Canton. Because people there are just asked how to make more merits or $$$ ( including that thinking he knows it all Liang Emperor). hahaha

So he travel north....

t_niehoff
07-21-2004, 08:08 AM
Hendrik,

What I see all too many WCK folks doing is overintellectualizing what is essentially a physical activity (what I call the the tai ji syndrome). You can argue to the cows come home about whether or not WCK uses "Shaolin" mechanics or embraces Ch'an or is "internal" or whatever -- the bottom line, the brightline test, for all these things is simply does it make you a better fighter, does it produce results. Philosophy and religion are faith-based; you can't prove one is superior to another. WCK is a fighting method; you can prove whether your "interpretation" is valid, whether your mechanics work more effectively, whether your strategy is sound or not, etc. MAs evolve, others die off, based on how well they "compete" with others, not by what their practitioners "believe.". If someone thinks Ch'an makes them a better fighter then they should be able to prove it, not explain it intellectually. If you think "Shaolin mechanics" (whatever that means) aren't as effective with WCK tools as another form of mechanics, it is an easy thing to prove. Among nonfighters a great many things are arguable because they lack genuine experience, and when two nonfighters discuss their "theories" of fighting, all bets are off! ;) Results tell all. Lack of results tell all. Nothing more needs to be said.

Regards,

Terence

Vajramusti
07-21-2004, 08:46 AM
Hendrik- yes- Damo was bound to be vegetarian in India and China even before meeting Prajnatara. He also indeed headed north from Canton.

Some of the "legends" have him crossing the Yangste on a reed.
Shows how mistranslation can help build legends and make folks skeptical. Apparently they had boats made out of sealed reeds at that time.

In dealing with myths and legends there is often the throwing out the baby with the bathwater problem.

The debate on "dhyana" (zana) versus ritual etc was there in Indian Buddhism before the transmission. While details of "localization" varied in the transmission and spreading- the epistemology is the same in personal transmission and knowing.
Samadhi is samadhi.Beyond verbalization and discursive jabber.

The accretion of neo confucianism and daoism are parts of various cultural mixes- but the epistemology/methodology of
dhyan/ chan has no cultural or martial dust.

After samadhi---there is the return to sansara and compassion and where the knowledge and the insight can inform different contexts and living.

Buddhist history is complex- including the northern- southern- sudden versus gradual enlightment debates.
No single martial art or arts can be logically connected to dhyan.
Damo was in a temple in songsan mountains but not at Shaolin.

One does not have to be a chan buddhist to do kung fu any more than one has to be Christian to engage in mock battles at Renaissance fairs with swords and shields..

Sandman2[Wing Chun]
07-21-2004, 09:05 AM
This is not a religious discussion forum, please keep the discussions on wing chun kung fu.