xingyi question

[Chang Style Novice]

Okay, I don't know much about this style at all, but once several months ago I was shown a basic (I think beginning) form from it.

It mostly seemed fairly obvious and evident and efficient to me but with one exception that stood out in my mind at the time and I still haven't been able to figure out in my head.

There was one straight punch - a right, about solar plexus level - that happened at the same time as a backward step of the left leg.

What's going on here? It seems like a p!sspoor way to generate any power, even if you are throwing your right hip forward with the punch as your left leg goes backwards.

I hope I remember what I saw clearly enough and have described it well enough for this thread to actually have some utility.

[blooming lotus]

no expert either, but it sounds like a set-up step to get weight back on front....................



as opposed to weight on back and change over distribution or execution from rear...............

[baji-fist]

You may want to check out the Emptyflower Forum. Most of the posters on there are xingyiquan players.

[Volcano Admim]

create space

then fill it

is one of the things you can do

[cerebus]

It sounds like you're describing a right hand "Beng Chuan" while stepping back with the left foot. The power for this comes from rooting the stance & sinking the hips while executing the punch. It takes practice to get the coordination right, but you can generate quite a bit of power with it.

Also take into account that it's usually executed with the step back because your opponent is advancing in a way that would "jam" or "crowd" your punch if you tried to advance. You're creating the correct distance to land the punch. And with the opponent's forward drive taking him into the punch the impact can be pretty hard.

[jungle-mania]

I never studied xingyi before, but I learn something similar in my training in TMA. It is the same technique, except the left hand pulls the opponent's punching hand at the same time. This is then followed by an elbow lock or a knee to the ribs. The technique you described from xingyi can be seen in karate and jujitsu, except the footwork distance varies from each art.

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by cerebus
It sounds like you're describing a right hand "Beng Chuan" while stepping back with the left foot. The power for this comes from rooting the stance & sinking the hips while executing the punch. It takes practice to get the coordination right, but you can generate quite a bit of power with it.

Also take into account that it's usually executed with the step back because your opponent is advancing in a way that would "jam" or "crowd" your punch if you tried to advance. You're creating the correct distance to land the punch. And with the opponent's forward drive taking him into the punch the impact can be pretty hard.

Muhammed Ali made a living off of this technique. Get his opponent to advance, advance, advance, then BAM!; plant the back foot and hit. Same principle (internal energy generation aside).

[Ray Pina]

Don't think of it as "stepping back" with the left. Think of it as pushing off with the right, and using that power to sing the right elbown and add depth to the strike.

Elements are ideas, little home work thingies to take home and increase your ability. Beng Shuan is used for creating space. Intercept a strike and use your elbow to sink the strike down while piecing in with the fist, ect. That is just one example. When you know the formula you can put it into many different forms.

Hsing-I is about power more than it is about A,B, C technique against D,E,F technique. Know how to collapse somebody. Know how to pick someone up who's trying to collapse you..... Bear, Bear, Bear and the foot, foot, foot.

[rogue]

Sounds like the last 2 moves of the Chonji pattern in TKD and I was taught it the way Cerebus described it. Fun to use to sucker agressive partners with.

[Ray Pina]

I have a few dollars in my pocket and so does Bill Gates....

I have two eyes, a nose and a mouth .... so dose my dog.

Am I the same as Bill Gates or my dog?

[Chang Style Novice]

With regard to those features under discussion, yes.

[Ray Pina]

And you miss the exact point.


Martial artists often look and see "the same thing" and yet Bill Gates' buying power and mine are uncomparable. A fool who doesn't grasp what paper money represents will see we both have a $5, $20 and even $100 bill in our wallet but not understand the difference in intrinsic worth or value .... and be careful, you might just wind up screwing a dog one day finding she has many of the same properties as Pamela Anderson.
:)

[Chang Style Novice]

So anyway, if I'm reading you guys right, what's going on with this move is a little different from what I thought I saw. Basically, the striking hand is moving forward at the same time the leg moves back, but impact doesn't occur until the back foot has had a chance to plant and root, although the motion begins without a root. So timing (as is so often the case) is critical.

Sound right?

[Chang Style Novice]

crosspost - and I think I'd rather bone a pound puppy than Pam Anderson anyway.

But more seriously, if motions reflect mechanics (and I don't see how they cannot) then identical motions will create identical mechanics, and therefore power. Without regard to whether you call it xingyi, tkd or boxing.

[Christopher M]

You can root from the front leg and generate significant power from the waist with the movement that throws your empty leg backwards; it's just rather unintuitive (or was for me anyway).

The wu xing ("five elements") which are the basic forms in xingyi are also usually understood as general formats for training force mechanics, rather than simply the strikes they look like; so that kind of a leg movement can be used, for instance as a takedown like o soto gari.

There's walk-throughs of the xingyi forms here (http://www.emptyflower.com/xingyiquan/index.html) following the 'Crushing' link that might have what you're describing.

[rogue]

My bad EvolutionFist, I forgot that CMA are unique and do things that others just can't.. :p


You can root from the front leg and generate significant power from the waist with the movement that throws your empty leg backwards; it's just rather unintuitive (or was for me anyway). Same here, I just learned to do it this year. Never gave the technique much thought but now I use it.


if motions reflect mechanics (and I don't see how they cannot) then identical motions will create identical mechanics, and therefore power. Exactly. Now most tkd peeps don't understand that move because it's 1) in the first pattern, 2) two it takes some thought to understand and make it work. For XY it may be more bread and butter than for a tkd fighter.

[The Willow Sword]

When i showed you that move all those months ago CSN you had made a comment as to the linear way the strike and movement was done,and mentioned about power generation. if you remember when i did the step i drug that back foot up to my front with the punch and sank with a slight hip twist. the movement was linear but the mammer in which the force was generated was not, internally speaking anyway.
remember that XIngyi's attack pattern is straight in. i have always mixed the pakua in with it ,,circular in defense,,linear in attack( this is a subjective term that has many variants and descriptions)

you wanna go back to the park and cross hands now? Has Paul showed you the 5 finger palm exploding haert technique yet?;)


PEACE,,,TWS

[Chang Style Novice]

I was thinking of a different demo (one of Paul's, actually), that's a little - but not much - fresher in my mind.

Yeah, we gotta get back to crossing hands again one of these times, when my situation settles down.

I'll let it be known on here when that happens.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by Chang Style Novice
I'll let it be known on here when that happens. Are you declaring your intent to produce evidence that you are indeed willing to spar someone outside your school?

[Chang Style Novice]

Yeah, if I can ever give up my F@#$ing night job that keeps me from getting in the practice I need.

[MasterKiller]

1 down, 6,427 to go.....

[rogue]

Martial artists often look and see "the same thing" and yet Bill Gates' buying power and mine are uncomparable. A fool who doesn't grasp what paper money represents will see we both have a $5, $20 and even $100 bill in our wallet but not understand the difference in intrinsic worth or value .... and be careful, you might just wind up screwing a dog one day finding she has many of the same properties as Pamela Anderson.
e-fist, aren't you the guy who say he saw a girl doing kardiokickbox and noticed she was using your styles prinicples?:D

[Ray Pina]

Also, wether going forward or backwards, you want the strike to land before the foot does .... this way you get power generated from "pushing off" into the strike.

As for doing similiar things and expecting similiar results .... no way!!!!!! Look at Tai Boxing. Everybody is using the Tai kick now but not everybody gets the same results. I've seen fights where that kick looked like it could kill. I've fought guys who's YTai-like kick was nothing more than a nuisance, could just walk right through it.

It's not the what, it's the how. There are guys who train Hsing-I with qualified teachers who have a hard time putting it all together. You won't get it from a book or video. You need to be shown, train it, work it, come back have it corrected, repeat and repeat and repeat again.

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by EvolutionFist
Also, wether going forward or backwards, you want the strike to land before the foot does .... this way you get power generated from "pushing off" into the strike.


You know your xingyi, E-fist.


Originally posted by EvolutionFist

As for doing similiar things and expecting similiar results .... no way!!!!!! Look at Tai Boxing. Everybody is using the Tai kick now but not everybody gets the same results.

Could that be because the people that are trying to use the kick still don't train it as dilligently as the Thai fighters? As for my comparision of this technique and M. Ali's technique, the guy used to jog backwards as often as he did forwards so he could time the hit and generate the requisite power. You don't see other boxers using this technique as successfully now either.

[Ray Pina]

Thanks Judge Pen but I'm still learning a lot .... more to learn everyday.

And of course it has to do with the training! Just claiming a style doesn't give on skill, it is the training associated with it. TKDD's aproach to training -- TKD mindset and what the style has evovled into -- is completely different than Hsing-I. So they could be doing the same form, but completely different intent, structure and power.

[Chang Style Novice]

You can't see intent (and I'm not so convinced of the importance of this anyway. Does a pebble that's thrown from under the wheels of a semi 'intend' to smash a window? No, but it manages to do it anyway.)

You can see structure. And structure, I believe, is where power really comes from. So I repeat my question - if the structure is the same, why wouldn't the power be the same, regardless of the name?

[Ray Pina]

I can certainly see intent. And I'm saying the structure is not the same, and this is the difference between someone who studies internal and someone who studies external for the most part.

A movement in itself does not impress me. It is the how. Watch a TKD guy throw a round house. Maybe to him, his intention is blank, but the TKD standard now is a guy with all his weight falling back over his stablizing leg to gain as much hight as possible. Now how about a Tai Boxer's round house kick?

Still a round house kick, but his intent is not on hieght but on destructive force (playing to put down, not score) and so he puts his body weight INTO the kick and target, not use it to gain height and point from distance.

I actually have some work to do today, so think what you will and train how you will. Makes absolutely no difference to me.

[Chang Style Novice]

What you are seeing is structure and you are reading intent into it.

[MasterKiller]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intentional_Fallacy

[rogue]

And of course it has to do with the training! ....I can certainly see intent.

So now we're onto the intent of ones training and how one trains & not something intrinsic to the style.


As for doing similiar things and expecting similiar results .... no way!!!!!! Once again you saying that you are somehow unique.
:)

[Ray Pina]

I think real Tai Boxing is unique, I think good BJJ or Gracie JJ is unique, I think E-Chuan is unique. Yes!

As for the commercial girl, read the thread. I thought I saw .... because I had it on my mind .... or something like that.

I'm not saying about better or worse, I am saying about doing things differently. TKD and Tai boxing both have round house kicks .... they are not the same.

[rogue]

Now you're mistaking similar names for different techniques. In Hwa rang do their roundhouse kick is closer to a cresent kick. What TKD and karate call a roundhouse is called a chop kick. You have to be careful mistaking the label for the thing itself. A good punch is a good punch and will follow the same rules for making it a good punch regardless of the label.:)

[red5angel]

a good punch is one that connects repeatedly and preferably during the same conflict. :)

[Volcano Admim]

look i already answered this threads main questioning in a very short precise and perfect way, theres no need to discuss any more else. just think, and apply.

man, i gave you some good stuff in like what, 3 lines?
let me say it again:

"create space

then fill it

is one of the things you can do"


you should repeat this out loud 3 times before sleeping until you understand

[Chang Style Novice]

Actually, I do like the simplicity and utility of that answer. But, it's a little... general, dig?