Full contact Wing Chun or Stick to traditional methods; which do you believe in?

[studentsifu]

I have come across many Wing Chun practitioners, like myself, who have actually learned some from the JKD group and now practice their Wing Chun to make it street efficient. We do this by sparring full contact with our Wing Chun, trying to re-inact possible scenarios that might occur on the street. We use little padding to make it as realistic as possible, and even though we go full contact we still have self-control. We do it as egoless as possible, and this means you have to stop and acknowledge when your opponenet could have taken you out but didn't or pulled his punch.

Then there are those who I have met who discourage this. They say stick to Chi Sau, Dar Sau and that is all you really need.

What do you guys think about this subject, what training methods do you use in your Wing Chun that are non-traditional that you find beneficial?

-Tathagata

[This message was edited by Sihing73 on 06-28-01 at 06:37 AM.]

[Sharky]

man, i went to a school where there was no sparring. They said they did "feeding techniques" to substitute for sparring - but i didn't buy it. I had to leave, but i am not going back man. You have to spar.

Edd

My anus is superior™

[BeiKongHui]

Sparring is highly important. My pet peeve has become Chi Sao only schools. Even Ip Man said Chi Sao is the link between the forms and free sparring but so many people seem to think that Chi Sao is sparring! I advocate sparring and not just other WC people but other styles as well. I also believe everything should be done as realistic as possible. In fact I've been thinking that maybe beginners should be trained in the basics of western boxing so in partner drills the aggressor can use boxing combinations since WC people are more likely to have a street fight with someone using the old Jab, Cross, Hook combo then say chain punches. I also really like senario based training.

"Gong Sao Mo Gong Ching Sao"
- When you talk with the hands,
best not to speak of polite hands.

[wongfeilung809]

i believe you should spar, but not untill a certain lvl, or you will not react so much like wing chun it will be karateish wing chun, stiff more strength than "spring". sparring would be good for bridging the gap. i do about two hours a day chi sao, and about an hour of free sparing a day, not untill recently have i had a chance to spar any other style, it should be intresting.

[[Censored]]

I thought full-contact implied NO pads, NO pulled punches, and NO stopping for acknowledgement? On what grounds do you judge light-contact sparring to be "untraditional training"?

Dude, those JKD guys brainwashed you. ;)

[Martial Joe]

Personaly I think wing chun was made for fighting and it should stay that way.Durring the 50's all those guys fought in hong kong against everything and were very succesful.This art was made to fight and we should see some real wing chun guys fighting out there in those tournaments.I would like to see some one with real good wing chun to go in there and show his stuff.I know there is a girl who learned under wong sheun long and I am pretty sure she fights against all arts but I know that she is the champion.And that is just one lady fighting that is in wing chun and shes the champ.We should get some men who are good at this to go out there and win...

[studentsifu]

Dear Censored,
I am not talking about light contact.
I am talking about wearing padding to protect your knuckles, a mouthpiece, and a cup. Then go at it as close to realistic as you can without sending someone to the hospital.

-Tathagata

[This message was edited by Sihing73 on 06-28-01 at 03:10 PM.]

[Martial Joe]

Well then it isnt like a realistic fight...And I am saying about full contact...the stuff in UFC...

[old jong]

Are you Neal Cameron?

Je frappe fort...Ça fait mal!

[[Censored]]

I thought that WC guys didn't need gloves because they know how to punch properly? I thought they kept their legs closed to protect the groin?
And I thought sending the other guy to the hospital, or the morgue, was the whole point!

I don't necessarily think your "full-contact sparring" is a bad idea, but let's call it what it is. It's not Wing Chun. It's kickboxing.

[mun hung]

O.J. - where have you been, buddy?

[GLW]

"I am not talking about light contact.
I am talking about wearing padding to protect your knuckles, a mouthpiece, and a cup. Then go at it as close to realistic as you can without sending someone to the hospital."

Hmm...let me see, when I was with my Wing Chun teacher, we had chest protectors, the red head gear, and gloves that left the fingers open for grabbing.

In doing Chi Sao and sparring with him, I was hit with a stomach shot that picked me up off the floor 6 inches and threw me back more than 3 feet (I ws stable in footwork so if it had been a classmate, that would have been over 6 feet)...and he was still coming at me. I had bruised arms, sprains, cut lips, black eyes, my body introduced to the floor at 32 ft. per sec per sec (gravity) plus whatever force he added to it, a capped tooth destroyed costing me $400 to replace, my shins kicked in blocks, and I could go on...

Nope, we didn't do full contact....

But that WAS traditional training.

:)

[old jong]

I just took some time off from the forum...I never intended to leave for good! I'm happy to be back.I was missing you guys. :)

Je frappe fort...Ça fait mal!

[Martial Joe]

GLW... :cool:

[Censored]~

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I thought that WC guys didn't need gloves because they know how to punch properly? I thought they kept their legs closed to protect the groin?
And I thought sending the other guy to the hospital, or the morgue, was the whole point! [/quote]


That is beutiful but we dont keep our legs closed we kick to the center so either way it is hard to get a nut shot in...and personaly I dont like gloves because it makes it more dificult to lob(grab) and hit and stuff like that...and I would like to say something...isnt the morgue in the hospital?

[mikey]

all hospitals (big ones ,anyway) have morgues,
but not all morgues are in hospitals.
(funeral homes,coroner, medical examiner,for example).
long time,no read old jong!

[rogue]

"I am talking about wearing padding to protect your knuckles, a mouthpiece, and a cup."

Cup OK, mouthpiece fine, but padding to protect your knuckles? Either condition them or use open palms. Better to find out how much damage you hands will sustain and how much you can take in the kwoon than out in the street.


Rogue, you're an @ss!! Watchman

Adventure is just a romantic name for trouble. It sounds swell when you write about it, but it's hell when you meet it face to face in a dark and lonely place.
Louis L'Amour

BTW, did I mention that Rogue was an @ss? Watchman

[benny]

We use little padding to make it as realistic as possible, and even though we go full contact we still have self-control. We do it as egoless as possible, and this means you have to stop and acknowledge when your opponenet could have taken you out but didn't or pulled his punch.

you never learn the conditioned responses of chi sao with out the reward system. i do this i get hit in the head i stop doing it.an acknowledged hit doesnt teach anything. and once you get to proper chisao your are constantly going in and out of range but full speed and full contact. no gloves no pulling punches.
i find sparing good to play with but when im training im not playing and chi-sao i believe is a better way to use my time training as i practice stepping in and out in rolling.

[GLW]

The gloves we used were to prevent breaking the skin or leaving major burises and scars...on the other guy....not that they worked much.

the head gear to prevent unnecessary destruction of brain matter...not that it mademuch difference.

and cups were forbidden. you couldn't move well with them and the instructor felt that they led to people forgetting to protect their groin.

I took more than one shot to the body or head to protect my groin...it hurt but didn't stop the family line...

[studentsifu]

If you do not practice fighting, how will you defend yourself in a fight?
If you practice pre-set routines and exercises in class, then you will be good at pre-set routines and exercises.
To defend yourself in a phasic, real envirionment you must practice in a free-sparring, full-contact setting.
I suggest using minimum pads to protect your vital areas (mouthpiece and cup) and exercise some restraint.....you do not want to hospitalize your training partner or you will have no one to train with.

[JasBourne]

Sorry Tathagata, but not practicing fighting while training a combat art is hardly traditional. The idea of de-fanging a combat art seems pretty modern, and I'm sure in large part fuleled by the insurance industry and the need to attract people into schools for whom the idea of potential injury is a turnoff.

If you are not willing to eventually go into full-contact sparring, there's no point in training at my school. We do use some gear, so that a) we can fight harder, b)we can fight harder longer. But we're not talking full-on body armor, just common-sense stuff.

---------------------------------
"If I win, you call me Mother."

[whippinghand]

Wing Chun is street efficient. Perhaps, it is you who is not.

Don't water down the system even more than it has been already.

[benny]

when was full contact called fighting. if it was it would not be called full contact it would be called a fight. sparing is not fighting. you want to fight go on the street and fight but dont delude yourself in thinking that sparing is fighting.

"If you practice pre-set routines and exercises in class, then you will be good at pre-set routines and exercises.
To defend yourself in a phasic, real envirionment you must practice in a free-sparring, full-contact setting."
that is what lat sao is for i cant see how you would go from full force punches with no gloves to pads and call it a better way to train.

"If you are not willing to eventually go into full-contact sparring, there's no point in training at my school. We do use some gear, so that a) we can fight harder, b)we can fight harder longer. But we're not talking full-on body armor, just common-sense stuff."
yeh right. if you or your partner doesnt want to get hit hard they should do ballet. if by harder longer you mean you can take punishment then when was the last time you walked down the street with pads on. and if you cant take punishment in sparing how can you fight. pads give a false sense of security.