Chan is not a philosophy and Damo's students doesnt have to eat curry.

[Hendrik]

note:

seriously, China is in a survival mode from 1830 up to decades ago. we shouldnt blame the past ancestors who might miss lead us from some of thier story. We are in a great peacefull time where research and deep search is possible and information is easy to grasp. I must say this because it is not fair for the ancestors if we use today's standard to rate thier understanding in Chan. They dont have time but has to run for survival, while we can sit in standford university library with aconditioning drinking coca cola reading all about Chan and call up some Chan patriach with Cell phones to conform things. I like to make jokes but in all means we need to respect all those from different lineages and style who make thier best effort to passed the art to us who live in a very bad era. without them there is no us.




People might say, oh no, not chan again.

You know, Chan has been post alots here and used in the CMA as a charm to ward-off anything they want. But, take a good look at the so Called Chan. it is not Chan at all.


OK, So what is Chan?

simple, Chan is a teaching of a methodology for PRACTICE to attain the non-dual state or Samadhi or proper -Stillness or if you want to call it free of attach awareness or awareness without identify it as anything but capable to identify it as everything if needed.

There are three stage in the training until the state of Aware but not identified become the by default.

Thus, it said,
first one sees mountain is mountain and river is river.
second one sees mountain is not mountain and river is not river.
Then, finally, mountian is mountain and river is river.

Yup. That is Chan.


So, what does it means about that non-dual,... awareness without identify it as anything?


USing an example in WCK.
Say, when one is "listening " in chi sau. But, one doesnt commit to use any technics yet. That is the simplified or very general or surface way of describing the awareness without identify it as anything state.

Using an example in Spiral Dynamic.
Say, when one is "aware"in daily living. But, one doesnt identify one as any memes or any of the 8 levels of conciousness yet.


So, Chan teaching is about how to attain the state where one doesnt by default or habitually fall into any identify. Chan training is about how to practice a certain meditation to realized the samadhi or the proper stillness state in daily living.


So, what is the big deal about this Chan stuffs in daily living? The big deal or the little deal is one has clear choice of what one wants instead of getting spiral into and trap or one can know all memes or types of conciousness but not by default or habitually stuck into one.

So, what is the big deal about this Chan Stuff interm of WCK practice? The big deal or the small deal is one has a clear choice of what technics one is going to use instead of become a programmed by default habit where others can read one's pattern. It is about mastering changes.


Chan was written in different Wing CHun Kuen Kuit even from LJ. That is the way how the ancestors record the theory of training in the AWARENESS platform. ( notice, it doesnt tell about any single technics but pure Awareness platform) and the Chi Sau is an implementation of this theory. ----- Listen and Dont think.

Why? because when one think. one starts with identify a conciousness a memes, a subjective experience. There one spiral into a habit, a program. and the life-spand of that latching into the spiral,( ie falling in love ) has to do with how fast/slow one can release one from the identity or shift away to different identity. Time is non linear here it is no longer mechanical time.


It is very strange to see the teaching of Chan which is the methodology to liberate or free from fix identify interpreted into as philosophy, into ten thousand names of hands or bridges..... or ten thousand sets....

Obviously, someone doesnt understant what Chan is about at all. Not to mention have the training of Chan to experience what is what.





You know why the Zen monk asked " how do you look like before your parents was born?" that is trying to break your habit of identity and break the habitual reaction.

You know why the Zen monk said " there is not a thing, how does it collect dust?" that is trying to communicate the awareness or the samadhi or the proper stillness is always clear and clean and free.


Since I am not the Buddha or the Chan Patriach. The above is my view from my Memes :D take it if it helps you leave it to garbage if it doesnt help.

For those who link Chan to the eight proper path.... well, check it out, if you cant "see" your memes or type of conciousness as in the spiral dynamics how do you change it?

Nice logical thoughts fly through the mind doesnt control the action. The memes does. So, one needs Chan practice to "Know". hahahaha



" how do you look like before your parents was born?" hehehe
Dont use your habitual conciousness to reply. For that habitual is the one tailor your life or your reaction. Comeone, use something different. You have a choice. :D

But then, hahaha all what I wrote up here is just an Emulation of my Memes or conciousness. This is still not the real thing. it is just the first state, mountain is mountain and river is river of understanding with our conciousness. Not real attainment of that non attached of identity awareness. I am just a parrot copying someone's teaching. :)

Dont expect I am all correct too I am not the Buddha and not a Chan Monk. you have the same AWERENESS as me. So check it out, in Gym, in meditation, while chi sau, while sparing (Ernie will love this ) , while in shower... everywhere you are it... ( but beware when you are AWARE you will not get involve. So dont do it when you have a dinner date or your spouse is going to blame me on your NOT CARING!) ....


A myth in the Shao lin or CMA is that. Why the heck those story keep Identify the Shao Lin Top Chan monks as ANTI-QING, there the five elderly stories.....etc ? where the teaching and practice of of Damo of Shao Lin in the first hand, Chan is about hey let go one identity. instead of "you must eat curry like me. "

Beats me. and you might know the reason why. I dont know. :D

sincerely appology to those who dont like this post. But, may be you want to look at Chan differently?


--------------------

note:
about memes or different level of conciousness models and spiral dynamics
www.chooseyourlife.com/ml/docs/SpiralDynamics.htm

[David Jamieson]

hendrik, I had a little difficulty readin your post because i felt it lacked cohesiveness and I am wondering what the point was?

Are you pro chan practice tied into martial arts practice?

Or are you con?

If you are for it why? What do you think it brings to the practitioner to study buddhism and practice Chan?

If you are against it, why? What do you think it takes away from martial practice or daily living?

cheers

[Hendrik]

Hi Kung Lek,

Living in Now,
Dont think and just read :D

Let the meaning comes to you if it is any :D

[GeneChing]

lemon curry? ;)

[Shaolinlueb]

i thought curry was an indian spice? it smells good but i dont think i would want to smell like curry.

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by Hendrik
[B]
note:

seriously, China is in a survival mode from 1830 up to decades ago. we shouldnt blame the past ancestors who might miss lead us from some of thier story. OK, So what is Chan?

simple, Chan is Thus, it said,
Yup. That is Chan.
USing an example in WCK.
Say, when one is "listening " in chi sau. Using an example in Spiral Dynamic.
Say, when one is "aware"in daily living. It is about mastering changes.Obviously, someone doesnt understant what Chan is about at all. Not to mention have the training of Chan to experience what is what. sincerely appology to those who dont like this post. But, may be you want to look at Chan differently?

[/url]

I hope you brought some tissues for that little masturbation session.

[Hendrik]

Originally posted by unkokusai
I hope you brought some tissues for that little masturbation session.

who is the one who post the above?

[Hendrik]

Originally posted by GeneChing
lemon curry? ;)

Curry in Curry Village Yosemiti is great too. :D

[Rhat]

Originally posted by Hendrik
who is the one who post the above?


unkokusai,

"some tissues"

I agree:cool: ....you won't find any fundamental problem for saying that:D :D :D ;)

[Hendrik]

Originally posted by Rhat
unkokusai,

"some tissues"

I agree:cool: ....you won't find any fundamental problem for saying that:D :D :D ;)


When Damo went to the Cave in Shao Lin to meditate.

is it because he bring some tissues,

or is it because he fed up with the stupid Liang Emperor who knows nothing about Buddhism but building lots of temple, having ton's of cocubines, and thinking everyone is like him --- always tissuing? :D

[Rhat]

Originally posted by Hendrik
When Damo went to the Cave in Shao Lin to meditate.

is it because he bring some tissues,

or is it because he fed up with the stupid Liang Emperor who knows nothing about Buddhism but building lots of temple, having ton's of cocubines, and thinking everyone is like him --- always tissuing? :D


I hope you brought some tissues for that little masturbation session.(unkokusai)

Seeing one drop of water can be seeing all water.;) some more tissues:o

[Hendrik]

more Emperor Liang. lots of Emperor Liang... No wander Damo went to Shao Lin Cave. hahahah :D

[Hendrik]

What is Chan for those who study Shao Lin kung Fu?
What is your view?

[David Jamieson]

Chan is a search for reality.

[Hendrik]

Originally posted by Kung Lek
Chan is a search for reality.

obviously this is an interesting subject.
ok to describe in more detail how you think it is done and what is the reality?




Hope we dont side track into building a Klenex tissue factory beside Shao Lin with Chan trademark. due to our ego identification spiral down process :D

[canglong]

A stable mind leads to better practice, which in turn can lead to samadhi. If your bodily karma and verbal karma are relatively undefiled, then your mind will tend to be more stable and pure.

With Ch'an one is aware of what one is doing, thinking and saying. It's just that you detach yourself from your problem. Most problems are due to attaching to a view of self, or to recurring thought or behavioral pattern. Alawys remember, but there be a harmony in the contraditions within you, than you will reach to the highest point and the highest peak in your art. ---RH

[Hendrik]

A stable mind leads to better practice, which in turn can lead to samadhi. If your bodily karma and verbal karma are relatively undefiled, then your mind will tend to be more stable and pure.----------------------------------



The past mind cannot be grasp, The present mind cannot be grasp, the future mind cannot be grasp. ---- VArja sutra

What is a Stable mind?








With Ch'an one is aware of what one is doing, thinking and saying. It's just that you detach yourself from your problem. Most problems are due to attaching to a view of self, or to recurring thought or behavioral pattern. ----------------------------------



If with Chan one is aware of what one is doing, thinking, and saying. Then what is Chan? an imported master? another program install?

Is Chan within or beyond the thinker?

How To DO CHAN? or it is just some fantasy? or just another fancy way of thinking named Chan.







Alawys remember, but there be a harmony in the contraditions within you, than you will reach to the highest point and the highest peak in your art. --------------------------------------



Remembers? Highest? harmony? contradiction? Peak? all these are things in duality.

Attached to duality will get one into NON-Dual --- Chan?
Not in practice of Chan.

[David Jamieson]

1. How to "do" Chan.

- sit

2. What is Chan

- you

[Hendrik]

Originally posted by Kung Lek
1. How to "do" Chan.

- sit

2. What is Chan

- you


1, sit and stand are dual, laying and erecting are dual.

When moving and stillness is non dual. when Chan and Kuen is non dual, then one do Chan.


2, who am I? the past, the present, the future evolve one? the crop after dead? the one who is living and dying in the sametime?

Chan is a living practiced to realize the non dual.

A finger pointing at the moon. without the finger one will not see the moon. Seeing the moon one doesnt need the finger.

[David Jamieson]

except for the very superficial, words are useless in understanding "what is Ch'an".

[GeneChing]

...mind the flag. Your minds are flapping. :p Lemon curry is from Monty Python - the kings of chan mind flapping. Flapping flags are from Chan, but you know that already, yes?

[Rhat]

Originally posted by Hendrik Is Chan within or beyond the thinker?

How To DO CHAN? or it is just some fantasy? or just another fancy way of thinking named Chan.

No Chan, just some tissues!


What is a Stable mind?

Just bodily karma and verbal karma, no mind at all.


What is an unstable mind?

Last edited by Hendrik on 07-21-2004 at 07:11 Am :confused: :confused: :confused:

[Rhat]

Originally posted by Kung Lek
except for the very superficial, words are useless in understanding "what is Ch'an".

The only Chan I am fear of is Jackie Chan.:p ;)

[Hendrik]

Originally posted by GeneChing
...mind the flag. Your minds are flapping. :p Lemon curry is from Monty Python - the kings of chan mind flapping. Flapping flags are from Chan, but you know that already, yes?


what is the color of the wind? :D

[Hendrik]

Originally posted by Kung Lek
except for the very superficial, words are useless in understanding "what is Ch'an".

a sexy voice is very easy to evoke the non Ch'an :D

[Hendrik]

No Chan, just some tissues! -----


You want to open a tissues factory beside Shao Lin temple ?






Just bodily karma and verbal karma, no mind at all. -------


have you seen such a thing? you mean a CD player?






What is an unstable mind?

Last edited by Hendrik on 07-21-2004 at 07:11 Am :confused: confused: confused ---------


The named of the Identity is recorded. The date and time is recorded. The computer sure is stable. the reader's mind must be unstable to be in confusion.

[canglong]

originally posted by hendrik
1, sit and stand are dual, laying and erecting are dual.
Chan is a living practiced to realize the non dual.

How does one remove the yin and not effect the yang?

[Hendrik]

Originally posted by canglong
How does one remove the yin and not effect the yang?

how does one not affected when a sexy hot lady like Paris walks by?

Your original face know that answer, dont think.

otherwise, those tissue sells man will talk you into buying thier tissue make beside Shao Lin temple.

[Rhat]

Originally posted by Hendrik
how does one not affected when a sexy hot lady like Paris walks by?

Your original face know that answer, dont think.

otherwise, those tissue sells man will talk you into buying thier tissue make beside Shao Lin temple.

Hendrik,

Have you read this post yet?

And what do you think about yylee's advice to you?



Originally posted by yylee

just before you start singing the Paul McCartney song.....

Every time you raise Chan this Chan that, people get little nutty. Call you boring, living in the past, la la la.....

Seems like the immovable heart is no where to be found, a few words from a virtual world can drive people nuts

And here they talk about their Shaolin roots, while over the other side of the pacific ocean the Shaolin official web site is stating: "to train Shaolin Kung Fu is to achieve the immovable heart".

let it be, let it be....

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by Hendrik
how does one not affected when a sexy hot lady like Paris walks by?




That skinny skank? You need to lay off the five-fingers-form and go see some real women.

[Hendrik]

Originally posted by unkokusai
That skinny skank?

There you go!

remove the yin and not effect the yang!

[Hendrik]

Originally posted by Rhat
Hendrik,

Have you read this post yet?

And what do you think about yylee's advice to you?


YY doesnt advise me. he just echo my previous idea of let it be :D


As for Chan, that is a big thing to do with

"to train Shaolin Kung Fu is to achieve the immovable heart"

how can one attain the immovable heart without a clear understanding of chan teaching, the process of training, and practice to attain certain state of samadhi?

That is the question I ask everyone. what do you think?

[Rhat]

Originally posted by Hendrik
YY doesnt advise me. he just echo my previous idea of let it be :D


As for Chan, that is a big thing to do with

"to train Shaolin Kung Fu is to achieve the immovable heart"

how can one attain the immovable heart without a clear understanding of chan teaching, the process of training, and practice to attain certain state of samadhi?

That is the question I ask everyone. what do you think?



If you can't get no satisfaction with Chan this Chan that, you should try some of the new tissues from the koko land. Can you see where you are going to:confused: :confused: :confused: You might have a genuine connection to your world: a sexy hot lady like Paris.

When you find yourself in times of trouble, sensei unkokusai comes to you, speaking words of wisdom, let it be Chan this or Chan that, let it be tissue this or tissue that...whisper words of wisdom, let it be.:rolleyes:

[Hendrik]

Originally posted by Rhat
If you can't get no satisfaction with Chan this Chan that, you should try some of the new tissues from the koko land. Before you can see where you are going to:confused: :confused: :confused: You might have a genuine connection to your world: a sexy hot lady like Paris.

When you find yourself in times of trouble, sensei unkokusai comes to you, speaking words of wisdom, let it be Chan this or Chan that, let it be tissue this or tissue that...whisper words of wisdom, let it be.:rolleyes:


This is a Shao Lin forum right?
Cant talk about Damo's and Shao Lin's expertise --- Chan?
you are funny. :D

[Rhat]

Originally posted by Hendrik
This is a Shao Lin forum right?
Cant talk about Damo's and Shao Lin's expertise --- Chan?
you are funny. :D

You feel a longing to share your discovery of some tissues with your sexy lady like Paris:o that's no Chan:cool:

[unkokusai]

You boys spend all your dough on pot and tissues, don't ya?




Freak show!:eek:

[GeneChing]

I've been asking myself if I feel better about staying at the Hilton hotels now or not. I haven't stayed at one since Paris conquered the internet for a day, so I'm still pondering this question.


what is the color of the wind? Give me a break and I'll tell you. Yes, that's a bad pun. Bad puns are never the right answers to koans, but I still can't resist.

[Shaolinlueb]

the gods of wu tang would be mad at this thread :p

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by Hendrik
[B]
You know, Chan has been post alots here and used in the CMA as a charm to ward-off anything they want. But, take a good look at the so Called Chan. it is not Chan at all.


--------------------

note:
about memes or different level of conciousness models and spiral dynamics
www.chooseyourlife.com/ml/docs/SpiralDynamics.htm


lol...............Shi Suxi ( great grandmaster of all shaolin and particularly regarding ch'an as poor/ lucky guy ages)......once said that if it can be spoken..........it's not ch'an at all...............



do agree that the face of ch'an has evolved but ch'an is, was and will always be exactly what it is and nothing more, less or different............

[SPJ]

Very interesting posts.

Daoism specifies that everything is relative in terms of time and space. When you set a limit, there will be a faction within the limit and the other faction outside the limit. Yin and Yang dualism are interacting and interlinked. Both coexist at the same time. If the limiting factor is removed, you have only one of everything or nothing, WU JI.

If you set a point B in space, A_B_C, A is on the left of B and C. C is on the right of A and B.

If you set a point B in time, A-B-C, A is before B and C. C is after A and B.

Chan is meditation about existence or non existence of everything in life. Thru Chan you seek the wisdoms and answers to questions or nonquestions in life. When you reach all your answers or nonanswers about life, and you have no doubts, you reach enlightenment.

When you say words, they are limiting. You have to think both the words mean or do not mean to have a whole picture.

Wind has colors. Yes.

What is wind? A flow of air that touches your cheek and moves the sailboat and windmill. The birds glide on it.

When the Sun heats up, the wind goes upward.

When a lot of winds go up, they cool down and become clouds with the color of white.

When more winds come up, they become dark and pitchblack clouds.

The winds come down like colorless rain drops or black-sooted color with car exhaust.

Then water goes to the ocean becomes blue.

Wait. That is water. Yes.

Moisture of water moved by air or wind.

What is air? What is wind?

What is color? Color is what you see reflected by light? What if there is no light. Yes there is no color.

There you go, air is minute enough and reflects light not able to be detected by human vision.

Cool. The color of the wind is colorless to the human eye.

Wind brings coolness or heat (depends on temp and moisture), they are either scorching or soothing or freezing cold with snow blitz. Or Tornado or hurricane.

As a human, let's color code.

Hot is red.

Cool is blue.

Cold is purple.

Tornado is black or --.

On and on.

That is Chan.







:cool:

[SPJ]

Emperor Liang did good deeds, built temples and refrained from worldly preasures and studied Buddhist teachings.

Damo said that is not it.

Damo meditated in the Cave near Shaolin. It was on Shaosi Shan.

That was a demo that this is the way to reach enlightenment or a beginning on the right path.

That is why Buddhist figures are usually sitting in lotus.

Though some are standing.

:cool:

[Hendrik]

Originally posted by GeneChing


Give me a break and I'll tell you. Yes, that's a bad pun. Bad puns are never the right answers to koans, but I still can't resist.

Nah, you dont need a break.

mind moves is not a bad stuffs, at soon as it is not attatch to self, the projection of others, role, and life span of the move. It is a spiritual penetration.


Damo moves his mind, so he end up in China. :D:D:D:D:D

[Hendrik]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
lol...............Shi Suxi ( great grandmaster of all shaolin and particularly regarding ch'an as poor/ lucky guy ages)......once said that if it can be spoken..........it's not ch'an at all...............



do agree that the face of ch'an has evolved but ch'an is, was and will always be exactly what it is and nothing more, less or different............


1, that is Shi Suxi. Not everyone. hahahaha. if it cannot be speak then where is all those Chan meditation methodology is from? :D

2, what is ch'an? haha

[Hendrik]

Originally posted by SPJ
Emperor Liang did good deeds, built temples and refrained from worldly preasures and studied Buddhist teachings.

Damo said that is not it.

Damo meditated in the Cave near Shaolin. It was on Shaosi Shan.

That was a demo that this is the way to reach enlightenment or a beginning on the right path.

That is why Buddhist figures are usually sitting in lotus.

Though some are standing.

:cool:

1, Emperor Liang spend more money in his cocubine then doing his good deed and studied Buddha's teaching. hahahaha.
Thus, Damo said ---- Dont be a fake. hehehe

2, Why buddha figure sit in lotus? because lotus is from the mud. it symbolized one gets the wisdom from suffering and chaos. hahahaha

[David Jamieson]

I would think that Bodhidharma payed a visit to China because of the way Mahayana was being embraced there.

Upon his arrival, I would think that he found many people giving money to alleviate their bad karma and to gain good karma. The merit system was the basis of transcendance and everyone could access it. However, the problem was that clearly that method they were using is not the method. You cannot purchase good karma for coins.

What is interesting is that people were aware of how they got their demerits, but failed to understand the why of the positive side.

so, if they were mean to someone the would get a demerit, and they knew that, but instead of being good to someone to gain merit, many figured that they could play a balance game and by giving sheckels to the temple...so to speak, and literally, they could gain merit and cancel out demerits on the karma credit system they had bought into.

This thinking is fundamentally flawed as you can see.

Now, of course there were people who were good people and understood the true price of good karma and the costs of bad karma, and so these people lived good lives and in so doing they made others lives around them good too.

But as we all know this is not the actual way of the world and in desperate times, people take desperate measures even where their soul is concerned. Especially the stronger the underlying belief they have a soul that lives eternally. They will attempt to bargain for better karma and because they place an innordinate value on money, due to it's representing survival and luxury, they offer it in exchange for merit.

There of course was no shortage of monks who thought that this was a reasonable system and by the proxy of their good deeds done with the aid of the money of the people attempting to purchase good karma with it, the merit could be gained by the people who gave money, and also by the monks who carried out good deeds.

There is in the sense of the buddha nature, a flaw in this method as well.

So, what is Ch'an? it is a method to correct this flaw.


This is only my opinion. :)

[SPJ]

Agreed.

Damo wanted Emperor Liang to give up everything including the throne or the power. That was where EL turned his head.

No liquor. Give money away. No women. Cool.

No power. Nah!

That is the hindrance for EL or everybody else for that matter.

Lotus stands out in the muds and yet remains clean and pure. There are more symbolisms than just sufferings.

Cool thread.


:cool:

[canglong]

noise from hendrik
what is the color of the wind?
originally posted by SPJ
Daoism specifies that everything is relative in terms of time and space. When you set a limit, there will be a faction within the limit and the other faction outside the limit. Yin and Yang dualism are interacting and interlinked. Both coexist at the same time. If the limiting factor is removed, you have only one of everything or nothing, WU JI.

If you set a point B in space, A_B_C, A is on the left of B and C. C is on the right of A and B.

If you set a point B in time, A-B-C, A is before B and C. C is after A and B.

Chan is meditation about existence or non existence of everything in life. Thru Chan you seek the wisdoms and answers to questions or nonquestions in life. When you reach all your answers or nonanswers about life, and you have no doubts, you reach enlightenment.

When you say words, they are limiting. You have to think both the words mean or do not mean to have a whole picture.

Wind has colors. Yes.

What is wind? A flow of air that touches your cheek and moves the sailboat and windmill. The birds glide on it.

When the Sun heats up, the wind goes upward.

When a lot of winds go up, they cool down and become clouds with the color of white.

When more winds come up, they become dark and pitchblack clouds.

The winds come down like colorless rain drops or black-sooted color with car exhaust.

Then water goes to the ocean becomes blue.

Wait. That is water. Yes.

Moisture of water moved by air or wind.

What is air? What is wind?

What is color? Color is what you see reflected by light? What if there is no light. Yes there is no color.

There you go, air is minute enough and reflects light not able to be detected by human vision.

Cool. The color of the wind is colorless to the human eye.
SPJ, I noticed hendrik skipped right over your reply so it would seem that when even the crickets go silent and all that is left is the sound of silence that is Ch'an.

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by Hendrik
1, that is Shi Suxi. Not everyone. hahahaha. if it cannot be speak then where is all those Chan meditation methodology is from? :D

2, what is ch'an? haha


chan is like the finish line the chan methodology you hear about are like details of a suggested route...........

[SPJ]

Agreed.

Chan is the question. Chan is the analysis (routes of methods). Chan is the answer (finishline or silence).

Hindrance is the limits that prevent us from seeing the truth or enligntenment.

Our human desires for worldly things or "preasures" bound us from the truth.

So we have to forego all of them, no wants, no greeds, so we have no limits (Wu Ji).

If we see things as they truly are or in their Nature state, we may be able to appreciate the truth or Nature/Dao.

Place emphasis on no limits and study nature and follow the Dao/path of nature (daoism). That is what I called Wu Ji Chan.

[SPJ]

The elephant story.

There is a merchant bought an elephant from Thailand.

He blindfolded his servants and asked them to touch it and said what it is.

A touched the body as hard and big as a wall. He said it is a wall.

B touched the leg as huge as a treetrunk. He said it is a tree.

C touched the nose like a big waterpipe. He said it is a pipe.

D touched the tail like a long rope. He said it is a rope.

They are all correct. But what kind of thing maybe all of these?

They puzzled.

When they removed their blindfolds, they all say Aah.

The blindfolds are the hindrances.

[SPJ]

Everybody has its own life experience and profession. He or she may all reach the truth or enlightenments via meditation on his or her life experience.

A carpenter may find his or her Chan from his or her finished work.

A painter from his or her pictures.

An architect from his or her constructions.

A teacher from his or her successful or not so successful students.

No the least, the MA fellow from his or her MA.

We may have the wall, the tree, the pipe or the rope, if we learn to forego the limits, we may then all see the whole picture.

Sorry sounds preachy.

:D

[Shaolinlueb]

chan is like water in a glass. you put water in glass the water becomes the glass. you put water in a bowl, it becomes the bowl.

okay, i just wanted to quote bruce lee :D

[David Jamieson]

well, actually...it remains water. The bowl is still the bowl and the glass is still the glass and the water is still water.

However, the most useful part of a bowl is it's emptiness. :p

[Shaolinlueb]

Originally posted by Kung Lek
well, actually...it remains water. The bowl is still the bowl and the glass is still the glass and the water is still water.

However, the most useful part of a bowl is it's emptiness. :p


always starting rukus KL.

[David Jamieson]

:p

Ch'an ruckus... that's pretty funny, with so many layers of visuals..

[Rhat]

Originally posted by canglong
SPJ, I noticed hendrik skipped right over your reply so it would seem that when even the crickets go silent and all that is left is the sound of silence that is Ch'an.

Sometimes Hendrik is too TISSUE for his own Chan :rolleyes:

[SPJ]

Chan is life. Life is Chan.

Chan is you.

:cool:

[SPJ]

There are good points in the first post.

But there are too many and too confusing.

Usually, Chan is the other way. You list one thing and you think many ways. If you think a few on many things at the same time, people are confused by your post.

There is a tree on the road.

The businessman sees it and says it is good shade. Maybe I set up a tea shop and sell tea to the people walk by.

The carpenter sees it and says hm good material. Maybe I can make a good furniture out of it.

The gardener sees it and says what a big old tree. It must be 30 years old. I wonder if there are any thing older in the area. The earth and the water must be good to support the tree. There maybe underground water or mineral site.

A boxer sees it. Wooh. I can walk around it to practice Ba Gua walk. I can Za-zen under it. I can place some old newspaper and practice punch and kick.

A dog walks by. Perfect urination stop.

A cat walks by. I can climb and rest.

A squirrel walks by. Wouzer. It is a mansion for home.

A birds flies by. Cool. A safe nesting place.

So what is your Chan about the tree?




:cool:

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by SPJ

There is a tree on the road.

The businessman sees it and says it is good shade. Maybe I set up a tea shop and sell tea to the people walk by.

The carpenter sees it and says hm good material. Maybe I can make a good furniture out of it.

The gardener sees it and says what a big old tree. It must be 30 years old. I wonder if there are any thing older in the area. The earth and the water must be good to support the tree. There maybe underground water or mineral site.

A boxer sees it. Wooh. I can walk around it to practice Ba Gua walk. I can Za-zen under it. I can place some old newspaper and practice punch and kick.

A dog walks by. Perfect urination stop.

A cat walks by. I can climb and rest.

A squirrel walks by. Wouzer. It is a mansion for home.

A birds flies by. Cool. A safe nesting place.

So what is your Chan about the tree?




:cool:


a peaceful person sees it and says nothing..........but they do breath very very deep then sigh ;)

[SPJ]

Here are the relevant stories.

Chan of life/religion.

Chan is asking and answering why, how, when, where, who.

Suffering in life.

Christian.

God created people with his image. Adams disobeyed God. That created the original sin. People are born with sin and sin, so there are sufferings. People have to repent and be redeemed by Jesus great love and sacrifce for you. Have faith and believe in him.

Buddhism.

People has demerits, wants and desires. They have bad karma from previous lives. So people suffer. If you practice good deeds and collect credit in good karma, and meditate to seek truth in life. You transcend the circle of lives. No wants. No desires. No sufferings.

[SPJ]

Chan of Apple.

A eats the apple.

B get a bandaid and cry.

C call insurance and file a lawsuit.

D hm why it falls down and not up, how, when(apple is big enough)---- Law of gravity.

[SPJ]

Chan of MA.

A tall Shaolin monk and a short Shaolin monk fight. The short one always loses. One day he sees the Praying Mantis grabbing the arms of a bug.

A Ignore them.

B interesting.

C My classmate has longer arm and leg. He always gets to me first, before I can hit or kick him. Hm what if I grab his longer arms first, left and right, then I can hit him. Hm left and right, high and low. Let me study and take notes from Tang Lang.

Chan of Wang Lang.

[SPJ]

Chan of Tai Ji.

A retired general, I am getting weak and old. The imperial army does not need my service any more. I have knowledge of Tai Tzu Chang Quan, I trained thousands of soldiers.

A write a book.

B write a song.

C study French.

D Hm what if i can create something that I can defeat a young and strong opponent with a small force. A circle. A ball. bouncing, push and pull. How and why it works. Chan Si is widely used to neutralize the opponent. What if I use all my body to Chan Si. I got it. I borrowed some Shi's from Qi Ji Guang.
I developed them into all kinds of Chan Si.-----

Chan of Chen Wang Ting.

:cool:

[Starchaser107]

curry will make you hurry.:confused:

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by SPJ
[B]Here are the relevant stories.

Chan of life/religion.

Chan is asking and answering why, how, when, where, who.

in my chan practice...I often receive answers to Q.s I didn't even know I'd asked..........



Suffering in life.



COLOR=darkred]in my pratice of ch'an I come to see that what appears to be sufferance pre-enlightenment is in fact evoloution......[/COLOR]





Christian.

God created people with his image. Adams disobeyed God. That created the original sin. People are born with sin and sin, so there are sufferings. People have to repent and be redeamed by Jesus great love and sacrifce for you. Have faith and believe in him.

[and fire and brimstone if you don't..............



Buddhism.

People has demerits, wants and desires. They have bad karma from previous lives.


oh...you mean lesons to learn and knowledge to aquire????


So people suffer.

life is sufferance...we all suffer a body that is born to die...............


If you practice good deeds and collect credit in good karma,


you mean...like discovering the truth of pof past errors and learning from them to create a better world for all????

and meditate to seek truth in life. You transcend the circle of lives. No wants. No desires. No sufferings. [/B ]


cheers.well glad we cleared that up :D :p :cool:

[SPJ]

Sorry I was in a hurry in posting before I had to go to work.

I looooove curry.

You have to be your own Chan teacher. It is your life. You made the journey.

A Chan monk may give you directions and guides. You have to sort things out for yourself. After all it is your life and your problems or your consciousness.

There was a chick. A monk found it under the tree. He took it home and nursed to become a chicken. The C was well protected and had food all the time. One day, the C wandered out and snatched by a eagle.

The C was angry with the monk. Because he never told the C the danger out there in life.

You have to ask???

My point is that when you ask your first question, that is when you start to learn.

The story is a little bit harsh. However, this was the exact story I was told when I started to study CMA and Chan some 32 years ago.

It always kept me alert to ask.



:D

[SPJ]

Personally I think life is a gift from God and the parents.

If there is no life, there is no death.

If there is no death, there is no life.

If there is no beginning, there is no end.

If there is no end, there is no beginning.

Personally I think life is also a trial.

Life is bigger than life.

I do not agree suffering explains it all.

:cool:

[SPJ]

Truth is something you seek and you shall find.

Truth is Jesus. And yet Jesus is more than truth. (Christian)

:)

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by SPJ


My point is that when you ask your first question, that is when you start to learn.

The story is a little bit harsh. However, this was the exact story I was told when I started to study CMA and Chan some 32 years ago.

It always kept me alert to ask.



:D

right......I think that's really poiniant( or could be for someone)........like a better the devil you know scenario.........

agree........and on that point, you'd be surprised how many folks are affraid in their deepest recess of even asking themselves the big Q.s.and as a result may never get the answers and remain clueless or in fantasy for ever on................

[SPJ]

Zen/chan/jhanam/dhyanam means to meditate.

You may ask 6 Q's. what, why, how, when, where and who.

What it Chan? It is to meditate, to think. What to think? Life and everything.

Why? So that we know about life and everything. So that we know the truth about everything including life.

How? Use Daoism Yin/Yang. Your religions. Your beliefs. You pick a topic and collect all the info, analyse them, draw conclusions and summarize into a sentence or a few words or a single Chinese character (for myself).

For each argument, there are pro's and con's. Consider them both and pay equal attention and try to find the truth integrating all sides and all info. (the elephant story)


Have a Chan notebook. Write everything down. and add new info or new thoughts.

Best of luck.

:)

[Shaolinlueb]

chan is everything and everything is chan...

or

chan is everything you do.



does that make sense?

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by SPJ
For each argument, there are pro's and con's.
Best of luck.

:)


and on that note I don't think an opinion is even necessary........just to know yin and yang of said situation is often enough on its' own.................

[SPJ]

Chan on everything.

Physics: big bang theory. First there are only cosmic particles and clouds then a big explosion, our galaxy and many others are formed, the universe is expanding from the big bang.

Christian: God created everything in 7 days/eons. Everything is created to glorify God.

Daoism: Everything is there since the beginning. Everything is moving in a circle of time and space. Everything is relative. Everything has an opposing partner. Yin and Yang. then 4 Xiang's, then 8 Gua's and then 64 signs. Everything changes accordingly. the book of Change. Zhou Yi.

Buddhism: Everything is impermanent. Only the truth (Brahman and Atman) is permanent. Everything you see, you feel is not there. Money, power, beauty, youth or life; nothing last forever. Do not persue the fleeting transcients. Do meditate to cultivate your consciousness to know the permanent truth.

So what is your Chan on everything?

All of the above, or none of the above.

[SPJ]

Consider both pro's and con's equally.

Yes, you have a whole picture.

But you do need to take side or make a choice.

Daoism or most Chinese prefer is the middle of the road approach, not too left nor too right. How you balance in the intricacies of both is called Tai Ji.

[SPJ]

Chan on everything you do.

Christian. Does everything I am about to do please God? Am I being a servant or an instrument for God's purposes? I sing for God. I do my daily chores happily. I pray for everything I do is what God what me to do?

Daoism: Wu Wei. Study and understand the law/path/dao of nature. Follow the Dao of nature. Do nothing against the nature or the will of the heaven (Tien Yi). Do everything that is the Dao of the heaven/universe/nature. People are part of the nature. We do have to follow the law/dao of the nature like everything else in the nature. Sort of Ti Tien Xing Dao.

Buddhism: Cause and effect. Yin Yuan. Everything you do will have a effect upon yourself in the near future or next life. Everything you do is result/effects of your previous actions. You plant a melon seed, you harvest a melon fruit. You plant a bean seed, you harvest a bean fruit. Practice good deeds, so that you plant a good seed and harvest a good fruit (San Guo). Practice evil and receive an evil ending (Er Guo). You have to eat your own fruits (Zhi Si Qi Guo). Goodness begets goodness. Evils beget evil. (Er Yo Er Bao, San Yo San Zhoung)

What is your Chan on everything you do?

All of the above. Or I do as I please. or I do what I do.---



:D

[SPJ]

BL;

You opinion is your Chan. It comes from you. Based upon your learning, your past experience, your beliefs, your judgement, your religion.

That is why Chan comes from you. Chan is you.

What makes BL BL. It is BL Chan.

:cool:

[canglong]

Chan is always all of the above.

[blooming lotus]

lol @ bl having a "ch'an " of her own :rolleyes: ;) :D :D .......


ch'an is no-ones' and chan is nothing more than what you find............be it the above or otherwise...................

[SPJ]

Good points.

Chan is in everything. You may find Chan everywhere.

Chan is in the daily chores.

Chan is in the painting.

Chan is in the architecture.

Chan is in the science.

Chan is in the religion.

Chan is in the life.

Chan is in the martial arts.

Chan is in the Samurai. Oops that is Budo or Bushido and Zen.

Chan is in the poems.

Chan is in the music.

Chan is in you.

:D

[Vajramusti]

SPJ sez:
Buddhism: Everything is impermanent. Only the truth (Brahman and Atman) is permanent.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Brahman/Atman are Advaitya Vedanta terms not Chan terms.
Chan is beyond atman/anatman reifications.

Joy Chaudhuri
www.tempewingchun.com

[SPJ]

Yes. You are correct.

:)

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by Vajramusti

. Only the truth (Brahman and Atman) is permanent.

www.tempewingchun.com


until you discover a new one to replace it..........................

[Vajramusti]

blooming lotus- please read carefully- your attribution re the source of the original remark is erroneous.

[blooming lotus]

and of course , above the meaning it matters alot :rolleyes:

thx for the rebuke

[SPJ]

The ideas of Zen/Chan Buddhism.

You meditate to find out the impermanence of things. They are illusions and changing all the time.

Only the truth does not change and is permanent.

This was what I meant in the post.

So the truth should not been changed or replaced, otherwise, it changes. It is then an illusion, therefore not permanent and not the truth.

Although, you may "define" or "redefine" your understanding of it till you know it fully via Chan meditation.



:)

[blooming lotus]

because truth is a multi-faceted thing relative to level of undestanding..........do we ever really have it???????????

[SPJ]

Good points.

It may take numerous life times.

Use the Matrix the movie (made it easy for the other readers on the thread).

There are ever so many TV screens of Mr. Anderson. He has gone thru so many "lives" till he made the "right" choice about love for Trinity or the saving of the digital "world".

Each of us has different life lessons.

Until we made all the right "choices". We are not out of the loops of reincarnations.

I have to shut up and stop. I went too deep on this thread already.

I usually just give a tip here and there on the forum.


:cool:

[blooming lotus]

dong..but sometimes it justhelps folks a little if you can get there inner ball rolling.......light the entrance way or something...........;)

cheers and props.........

bl

[Red Rain]

Chan is in everything. You may find Chan everywhere.

Chan is in the daily chores.

Chan is in the painting.

Chan is in the architecture.

Chan is in the science.

Chan is in the religion.

Chan is in the life.

Chan is in the martial arts.

Chan is in the Samurai. Oops that is Budo or Bushido and Zen.

Chan is in the poems.

Chan is in the music.

Chan is in you.
This seems to be suggesting that chan is a philosophy.

[David Jamieson]

This seems to be suggesting that chan is a philosophy

I am inclined to see Ch'an as a method.

The 4 noble truths and the eight fold path are the philosophy behind the method.

Ch'an accomodates the buddhist philosophy and helps to bring it's practice to fruition within the practitioner.

cheers

[Hendrik]

Ch'an is pices and pices or right and wrong. Until the dust is totally grinded into emptiness. Then, one see non dual once.

[Red Rain]

I am inclined to see Ch'an as a method. Then more specifically it would be correct to say Ch'an Buddhism is a system of philosophical concepts.

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by Red Rain
Then more specifically it would be correct to say Ch'an Buddhism is a system of philosophical concepts.


that you create as you get deeper into it........................

[SPJ]

Buddhism is a religion or a belief that what Buddha thinks the life is all about. The 4 noble truth and the need to become enlightened or to know the truth in life and everything.

There are many ways to arrive at the end or the beginning of the next stage. Once you are enlightened, you are to teach and enlighten others. So monks are teachers about life for the believers.

Chan is one way. Damo advocated it. Damo is a wondering Monk. Buddha is a thousand years older than he.

There are Tibetan Buddhism and others.

Chan is a way of study. You start with collecting all the info. You have to make inferences and not references. You may have logic and may have not.

Your method of doing Chan may vary. Everybody may have his own method. Monks are named after the method or incidents that made them enlightened. Method name (Fa Hou) maybe given or self appointed.

I used Daoism and way of nature (a lot of science) to do Chan meditation about life and Wu Shu. I dubbed it Wu Ji Chan.

It is for my own purpose. No need for followers.

Peace.


:D

[blooming lotus]

had an elightenment early this morning.............or rather 2...... firstly I am disgustingly more mature than I'm often prepared to disclose and second........ because of ch'an and meditation I have become so intrinsically peaceful spirited and after a slight altercation with a violent colleague, realise that I don't even for a moment even nor ever consider return violence, (particularly physical) a feasible option outside of class and thank god for buddhism ..........turned what could've degenerated into a serious situation into nothing more than some trite bad behaviour..............


a worked issue is a worked issue, and once you have it sorted I guess just do.....................

some things need only be hashed once ;)

[SPJ]

Agreed.

My post was in response to RR.

Buddhism via Chan is still a religion.

Chan meditation about life is open to all. Even a Toufu seller on the street has his or her own opinions about life so do birds, frogs, trees, stars etc.

So does I robot in the movie.

Peace.

:D