Tai Chi Classics

[red_fists]

Just out of curiosity.

How many people here have read the:

Tai Chi Treaties

Tai Chi Classics.

Personally, I like to read them often as I gain more skill in TCC, some aspects of the Classics and Treaties become more clear.

I also think that every TCC practicioner should have their own copies. I got 4 diff. translations but no interpretation of them.

:cool: :cool: :cool: :cool:

[Repulsive Monkey]

... more or less I find that I dip into the such for clarification/meditation or just browse through to absorb information. But then I call upon these tecxts just as much as I call upon the Tao Te Chng and I-Ching for guidance too.

[shaolinboxer]

I have read them. Excellent material.

[Kaitain(UK)]

I tend to read them when I have a breakthrough - suddenly something really makes sense to me

I also read interpretations as anothers' perspective can be valuable - equally someone else's persepective can be perplexing :)

I go through periods when I reread my main four books (Tai Chi Boxing Chronicle, Secret Yang Family Transmissions, Mastering Yang Style and Principles and techniques of Taijiuan - a new book by Ip Tai Tak) - some things make more sense as you improve - keeping the spine straight in Cloud Hands for instance or being truly full and empty in a posture. To me the beauty of the classics is the same as that of the form - the more you learn and understand, the more you realise there is to learn and understand.

Whoever created Taiji was a frickin' genius

[bamboo_ leaf]

Kinda funny how it dose that, just when you think you understand or you got it. your understanding changes as your level deepens.

I think approaching it in this way means your practice is very alive and growing.

i would also recommend "the dao of taijiquan" by jou, tsung hwa.
very good read, if you haven't read it already i think you might find it interesting. :)

[Kaitain(UK)]

got that one :) - I liked it as it provided some theoretical information that I haven't seen anywhere else - discussing how the Taiji relates to the system directly, expanding on the trigrams and so on...

I'm a bit of a TJQ book freak but I've run out recently - the last good one I got was Ip Tai Taks which is particular relevant as he's my top lliving ineage holder. It's kind of like the boxing chronicle with a pure Yang perspective... not a cheap book though - I got a signed limited hardback for 50 quid (ulp)

My main problem book wise is that so many are written by people who want to talk in generic terms about high-minded principles but have no hard and fast knowledge/ideas to impart - it's regurgitated translations rather than a masters persepctive.

e.g Ip opens his book with the line 'don't get hit; don't learn' - i.e. you have to feel what's being imparted to understand.

Any other recommendations?

[red_fists]

Round 4 (not really).

I have found that the classics make more sense to me if I take a few paragraphs together and read them as one.

Problem, I have found that they are often not written in sequence.

Maybe I am reading them wrong, but this way they make the most sense to me.

Not sure if they deliberately done that way or if it just they way that they were recorded.

Any other ideas out there.

[EARTH DRAGON]

For me the classics change with my perception, understanding and wisdom. When I think I understand, I learn more and change my insight of what they say or mean. I think that the depth of meaning can only be understood when you are viewing it from the same depth.
Wisdom allows us to look at similar situations from different angles.
Knowledge allows us to look at similar situations and understand different meanings

[chen zhen]

Jang jwing-ming has also made some excellent books recently, one of them is called "Taiji qin na" and another is called "Taiji martial applications" and i can't remember what the third one is called. Try to look out for them, they are really good.

[cha kuen]

I heard that the tai chi classics are a great read for any martial art style. Are there available to read on the net? Or should I go buy a book?

[Liokault]

Go buy a book.


Before u do so u need to understand that the classics have been translated and miss translated by many differant guys so that u can read into them whatever u want.

[Laughing Cow]

cha kuen.

There are some translation available via the Net.

Do a google search for the terms "Tai Chi classics".

Be warned that those are mostly the Yang Family ones. and some styles like Chen will differ in some aspects.

[Al S.]

Greetings -

Yes, the classics do for the most part come from Yang based styles, but as an overall approach they are a great read no matter what style of Taiji or martial art you practice.

Liokault's point about translations and mistranslations is well taken. Actually, it was the problem about translations that led me to post my first message ever to an online message board in 1995 (the old "Taiji Talk" board).

I had noticed some references to "threading" imagery (Chinese: guan ) present in certain translations but missing in others. I was translating selected portions of the Chinese myself to find out if the imagery was present in the original or added by the translators.

I posted a message asking for help with the translation, since I'm not trained in Chinese. Louis Swaim, who has practiced Taiji since 1974 and trained in Chinese history, Mandarin, and Classical Chinese at U.C. Berkley and in Taiwan, answered my message. It led to exchange many emails over a five year period about not only threading imagery but many other phrases in the Classics.

I learned quite a lot from Louis in how to approach the original texts and the subtle word-play and meaning in them. (In addition, that message led to a friendship and visits between Louis and me in his San Francisco and my Portland. One of the best online relationships I've formed.)

Our emails eventually led to Louis's published translation of Fu Zhongwen's Mastering Yang Style Taijiquan (click here) (http://www.cloudwater.com/amazon.htm?1556433182). As a matter of fact, he asked me to review the Classics translations in that book, and many of our email conversations became the contents of the 25 pages of translator's notes he wrote in the appendix of that book.

Yes, I have my biases about this, but I believe his translator's notes help us improve our understanding of the more arcane passages in the Classics. I believe the book is worth recommending, if only for these notes.

Thanks,
- Al

[Liokault]

AL S

I find this to be a very odd statment and would very much like to see u back it up.


Yes, the classics do for the most part come from Yang based styles, but as an overall approach they are a great read no matter what style of Taiji or martial art you practice.

[Al S.]

Hi Liokault -

I'm not certain that sentence is worth defending. It's not part of the main message that I'm trying to convey.

The main idea is the difficulties in reading the classics in translation, and that I find it valuable having an edition of the classics that talks directly about the contents and translation of the text.

Many translations have commentary - but the commentary is often (though not always) the translator's or practitioner's interpretation of the ideas in the classic - not a direct reference to the translation of the text. Almost all these "translations plus commentary" of the classics that I own are from Yang stylists. (This is a simple fact and not a put-down of Yang stylists or of the commentary. These editions are valuable to me, especially since one of my practices is Yang style.)

Rather than rely on interpretation, in my own study and practice, I've found it valuable to explore the text directly and to have detailed notes on the words and phrases in the text. Yes, I still own many translations that include commentary that I read, but for my own understanding and enjoyment, I appreciate direct references to the translation to the text in addition to interpretation.

Of course, translation often involves interpretation, but the book I cited makes those translation-related interpretations specific.

It appears that the first statement may have obscured the primary point I was trying to get across.

Best wishes,
- Al

[Bolt]

guohuen - "Tai Chi Classics by Waysun Liao is a good read. "

1) I second that motion


2) I tried the link posted by Al S. Didn't work. Anybody else try it ?
Is it me or ....

[Laughing Cow]

Bolt.

It worked for me. ;)

I prefer reading a direct translation rather than an interpretation of classical texts.

Said that your Sifu should help you make things understand when confusion arises.

You will get different things and understandings out of the classics as you progress along the MA road.

As for the Classics being helpful to all styles, I disagree.
Even within the TJQ styles I feel that they cannot be universally applied.

[cha kuen]

Sounds good. I'll buy it when I get some money!

[RAF]

" posted a message asking for help with the translation, since I'm not trained in Chinese. Louis Swaim, who has practiced Taiji since 1974 and trained in Chinese history, Mandarin, and Classical Chinese at U.C. Berkley and in Taiwan, answered my message. It led to exchange many emails over a five year period about not only threading imagery but many other phrases in the Classics."
__________________________________________________ __

Although I have never met him, Louis Swaim is a very heavy hitter with regard to language, Chinese martial arts and translations. His book is a must.

Ted Knecht also is a lineage holder and excellent translator of Chinese martial arts. He links in the the Yang Cheng Fu/Fu Zhong Wen lineage and his teacher is both western/eastern medical doctor.

Here is a link to Ted's translation of the classics:
http://www.geocities.com/yongnian/classics.html

Also you should look over other articles and his teacher's website:
http://www.geocities.com/yongnian/trainingbasics.html
http://www.geocities.com/yongnian/trainingbasics.html

[Laughing Cow]

RAF.

Thanks for the link, some good info there.

Just wish they would edit/format those texts a bit. Current format makes it hard to read.

Cheers.

[brody]

I just finished reading Steal My Art, by Stuart Olson. In his book, there is mention of the Tai Chi Classics. Is he refering to a book that can be purchased? If so, does anyone know if it is in english?

thanks.

[Rockwood]

Taijiquan Classics by Barbara Davis
Essence of Tai Chi Chuan by Ben Lo, et al.
Mastering Yang Style Taijiquan trans. by Louis Swaim

all have the classics translated.

-JessO

[SPJ]

Wang Zhong Yuet wrote Tai Ji Quan theory.

Chen Wang Ting wrote Quan Jing Zhuong Ge.

Chen Chang Xing wrote 10 big theories.

Chen Xin wrote Quan Pu, Quan Jing Pu and theory of Chan Si Jin.

Wu Yu Xian wrote interpretation of Tai Ji Quan, 13 Shi's Gong and theory of Tai Ji Quan.



:)

[Repulsive Monkey]

Don't forget LI I Yu aswell.

[SPJ]

Cool.

:cool:

[SPJ]

Here is a link;

Classics (http://www.scheele.org/lee/classics.html)

Wo Sun Ren Bei.

You are in your front side and the opponent is on his backside.

What is your favorite?

:D

[YuanZhideDiZhen]

any way i can abuse a little man is my favourite at the time. :rolleyes: :D :cool:

[cam]

Thanks for the link SPJ.