Once a week warrior

[YongChun]

I wonder in your school if there are people that just come once a week? Do most of your students or classmates come three times a week? Does it depend on their age or whether they go to school or have jobs or are married? It seems to be a growing trend here with people's busy lifestyles, family comittments (complaining wife of husband or children responsibilities) or budget constraints to do the once a week training thing.

When I learned Hung style in the 60's in Toronto's chinatown the generation before me trained 7 days a week, 5 hours a night. Some of the students looked every bit as good a Jet Li. My generation trained maybe three days a week and we never approached anything that looked that good.

I remember some quote from Bruce Lee (?) that said roughly:
train one day a week, you go backwards; train two days a week, you stay the same; train three days a week, you start to go forward.

I have heard Emin trained 7 hours a day for 10 or 15 years. Kenneth Chung trained 7 hours a day for ten years also. This is why these teachers have more skill than most.

Given the constraints and realities that some people can just come once a week, rarely practice at home, it is quite a challenge to teach something of worth. It is easy to suggest that everyone just go home and watch TV instead (which one of my Hung style teachers used to say). However some of these people are quite serious in that they come year after year for their once a week two hour practice. So for them I still do what I can.

[reneritchie]

Unless you're a pro earning 100K a fight or 100k a year teaching, training all day every day isn't being serious, its escapism. It's the same thing as getting lost in Everquest or going to the garage to rebuild a car.

Life requires balance. Martial arts are just another hobby. Whether you train in a kwoon/dojo/whatever, or go bowling, or go out drinking, it costs time. If you have a family, it takes a special kind of entitlement to abandom them for hobby (unless they train or bowl or drink with you, then it's quality time ;).

A little is good for the soul but fanaticism in anything is bad for the world.

[YongChun]

That's why I think a lot of discussions about Wing Chun's realism and having to train against boxers, grapplers and the like doesn't apply to many people learning Wing Chun. Most just aren't interested in these things and can't afford to take the risk of injury when more realism is provided in the training. The people we have doing the once a week thing are very happy and do make progress. Some of the married students say that if they came more than once a week then they would have to kiss their marriage goodbye. So in that case once a week is good.

[AmanuJRY]

I agree to balance, and each individual has there own balance point. One of our students has trouble showing up even once a week, but we offer twice a week and on the avarage, I'd say he makes once a week and I have noticed improvement in his ability.
As for my balance, I think I need to train 3/wk with others and every day (to some degree) solo.
To each their own. I have posted this statement before; "I would define a lazy training regimem by your goals and ambition to reach those goals. If you set goals and are working toward them with success, that is not lazy. If you set goals and don't feel as though you ever achieve them or even make noticable progress...that's because you're lazy!"
I think if you can set and achieve your goals training once a week, great, but I set fairly high goals for myself (I don't always achieve them though, I guess by my definition, I'm lazy :D ).

[reneritchie]

Hey Ray,

Again, I think there are people who train fighting, regardless of whether its a martial art or not; people who train martial arts, regardless of style, people who just train a certain specific style, and people who just train elements of a certain specific style.

Whether they do any of the above to excess or not will also vary.

Same way some people will always buy the same entry level Ford sedan, some will always buy Ford but might change from economy to SUV as their needs change. Some will always buy American. Some will buy whatever car they think best at the time, regardless of make or model or country of manufacture.

And this will be independant of whether or not they just drive it when they need to, or whether they hide out in the garage washing or working on it, or take long drives to avoid the inlaws.

Because real martial arts needs are few and far between since the advent of modern munitions and urban defense needs, other qualities like socialization, exercise, asia-fetish, etc. have become dominant over the years, which means MA can be many different things (or combinations thereof) to different people. That is both blessing and curse.

[Neo]

I have heard Emin trained 7 hours a day for 10 or 15 years. Kenneth Chung trained 7 hours a day for ten years also. This is why these teachers have more skill than most.

When i trained and taught wing chun as a single man, I should have been doing this, although at the beginning I was probably training five nights a week after work / at the weekend.

Now I'm married, three kids and a mortgage, I dream of that luxury and wish I could go back to those old says!

[Ernie]

That's why I think a lot of discussions about Wing Chun's realism and having to train against boxers, grapplers and the like doesn't apply to many people learning Wing Chun.


this would be fine , but then those same , people will argue how there wing chun would deal with a boxer ,grappler and so on and have nothing to base it on

in fact they should not comment on it at all , but instead they borrow the lives of others and thre accomplishments and lay claim as if they could do the same

if you don't put in the work , don't be shocked if the results don't come out in your favor

and worse don't lie to yourself or try and shut down those that do put in the work to make yourself feel better ;)

[PaulH]

Ha! Ha! Ernie! Here is more Charlie Chan for you!

Mud turtle in pond more safe than man on horseback.

Joy in heart more desirable than bullet.

Good detective never ask "what" and "why" until after he's seen.

Kindness in heart better than gold in bank.

Must turn up many stones to find hiding place of snake.

=)

[yylee]

a couple of possibilities:

- may be the teaching and training is so good, 1 hr at your place is better than 3 hrs at other places. :)

- may be the teaching and training is just average, training another 3 hrs won't help a bit. :o

- the student is already losing interest, he/she is trying out other places and only spend one day in WC. :(

- family comittment and work are of course very important. Not everyone train MA for a living. ;)

[t_niehoff]

A couple of thoughts . . .

When I hear things like so-and-so "has more skill than most" I always wonder what they are talking about. More skill than whom? Skill in what? Being actually able to apply their WCK in a fighting environment? How do you measure skill? Forms? Drills? Touching hands?

When I hear things like "improvement in ability" or "making progress" I always wonder what they are talking about? What ability? Progress toward what goal? Being actually able to apply their WCK in a fighting? How do they measure ability or progress? Forms? Drills? Touching hands?

Regards,

Terence

[Ernie]

A couple of thoughts . . .

When I hear things like so-and-so "has more skill than most" I always wonder what they are talking about. More skill than whom? Skill in what? Being actually able to apply their WCK in a fighting environment? How do you measure skill? Forms? Drills? Touching hands?

When I hear things like "improvement in ability" or "making progress" I always wonder what they are talking about? What ability? Progress toward what goal? Being actually able to apply their WCK in a fighting? How do they measure ability or progress? Forms? Drills? Touching hands?

Regards,

Terence



i personaly like to improve my fighting ability by studing history and chan
and of course sitting in a stance waiting for the old masters to come to me in a vision ;)

[t_niehoff]

Imagine if someone said "I only go to boxing class once a week and can't afford the realism of actually getting into the ring" (or any other fighting method) but thinks they are "making progress"! It's simple -- if you don't want the "realism" then do something besides a fighting method. Why would someone take swimming classes but want to avoid the "realism" of getting wet? Or skydiving but avoid the "realism" of jumping out of a plane? These things are what define the very activity itself. Marital arts without fighting is no longer a martial art -- is is folk dancing or tae bo.

Terence

[Ernie]

no longer a martial art -- is is folk dancing or tae bo


no way that would be to tireing for most wing chun people
having to lift there leg up in the air is way to external
better to meditate under a water fall and eat bon bons:D

[YongChun]

Originally posted by t_niehoff
Imagine if someone said "I only go to boxing class once a week and can't afford the realism of actually getting into the ring" (or any other fighting method) but thinks they are "making progress"! It's simple -- if you don't want the "realism" then do something besides a fighting method. Why would someone take swimming classes but want to avoid the "realism" of getting wet? Or skydiving but avoid the "realism" of jumping out of a plane? These things are what define the very activity itself. Marital arts without fighting is no longer a martial art -- is is folk dancing or tae bo.

Terence

I guess there are degrees to this. I remember one of my club members was into fighting in Karate tournaments and had a big argument with one of our female members that she should get more realistic and also fight in Karate tournaments. So she asked him why he didn't go to Thailand to fight the Thai boxers or go to Los Angeles to fight against the gangs on the street or to get really real just sign up for the army and fight for real until your luck runs out. She said even if she wins in tournaments doesn't mean she can handle any of the fighting she posed in her examples let alone a just released hardened con bent on killing her. So that arguing really didn't get anywhere. That student had seven months of Wing Chun training but beat 4 Karate blackbelts with just the charge in and chain punching techniques. But the main thing I think is that he had an aggressive mind from his street fighting days in England. When the lady and him sparred , she did fairly well even though she didn't have all this experience. She only did Wing Chun Chi sau but just used her instincts to be careful in the distance fighting. She basically didn't want her face beat to a pulp or risk getting her teeth knocked out or ribs broken from someone's powerful kick or punch. So she didn't agree with that kind of experience.

Nevertheless she wasn't afraid since she travelled around the Orient and Europe and didn't hesitate to walk into Wing Chun clubs to compare hands. One such experience left her bleeding on the floor with a broken nose and a dislike for most male martial artists who she felt were just into the macho thing. She was also bold enough to give a seminar to 70 blackbelts in TaeKwonDo, Karate and Aikido in Colorado one year. A couple of the blackbelts asked to spar with her and she agreed and just used her wits to survive. Still she kept to her opinion that sooner or later such things would get her seriously hurt.

Then she went to Vancouver and had a pushing hands match with some Tai Chi masters one Chen style and one Yang style and did very good. She considered this as a game and Wing Chun more like real fighting. But one Tai Chi master told her not to go to China to do this because it's their bread and butter. He said if she offbalanced someone there, they would seriously hurt her in order to save face and prevent the loss of their students. Then she realized that Tai Chi wasn't just fun and games either.

Later she heard a story to confirm what she was told. Then there was a good fighter that went to Southern China to check out the claimed good fighting of some Tai Chi master. It was his opinion that Tai Chi people can't fight. But he challenged the wrong guy. He threw a punch and the Tai Chi guy broke his arm in six places and later he died in the hospital from his injuries. So he had a bit too much realism. This story came from Edmonton Joseph Chen who is a Chen style fighter and knows the people involved. Joseph said in one part of China in the South they fight a lot using Tai Chi. So for him it's all about fighting and nothing else.

This lady visited Wong Shun Leung's club in Hong Kong and saw they just trained Chi sau. However she said that chi sau involved regular split lips and broken noses and the students she talked to said they didn't mind this because they wanted to know that their Wing Chun would work for sure on the street. Some people say Chi sau is nothing however it just depends on what you train in Chi sau.

I think you can probably just train in Wing Chun and become good enough as some of the Hong Kong Wing Chun guys who worked for the drug gangs were. It all depends on your training partners. For example if Emin Boztepe is your training partner, her could feed you a lot of stuff from other arts for a long time at a higher level than you would get taking on maybe some of the local boxers or grapplers. The main thing is who you fight and how you train and to make that training a learning experience rather than just a survival fight.

Just fighting with good fighters who think Wing Chun is crap will no doubt be a good experience but will also eventually get you killed.

There is another story of a guy that wanted to get real experience in Indonesia by fighting the local Silat fighters. So he matched up with a good one and beat the guy and felt pretty good about it. However the next day the guy wanted a rematch. So he said sure. This time the Silat fighter threw a punch the guy brushed it aside however his hand was treated with coconut oil with acid on top and so the top layer of his skin got burned off. Welcome to the real world.

There was another guy in Malaysia that was into tournament fighting. He was very good at doing the low reverse spinning footsweeps or Iron Broom technique. It never failed him and so his club started to all train in the technique. Then one day he fought someone that had trained a counter to this for a long time and kicked him in the spine with an Ax kick. This left him unable to fight anymore. After that his club decided not to train in that technique anymore.

I think lots of people like to do martial arts, benefit from martial arts without the reality fighting talked about above. To risk their health in training seems counterproductive to them when the reason they want to train in the first place is to avoid getting hurt. So if they put on the gloves and helmet and have someone taking full force swings to their head they don't see that as something productive and enjoyable especially when they get on in age or have various injuries already.

I think it is a relatively small segment of the martial arts community that thinks about handling the big boys in professional boxing, Mixed martial arts etc. and of those people that talk about the need to do this next to none will actually try against the good fighters like Bluming, Dolman, Dekker, Gracie, Tyson and whoever. Definitely in doing so your fighting will improve but not that many people are genetically disposed to be able to handle this intensity of fighting. Some people realize their limits and are happy just to train all their life in some less risky way. I think Chi sau and Tai Chi's pushing hands were created to do just that.

I know a few people that were heavily into competitive fighting such as Olympic Judo and Golden gloves boxing and now they are happy just to train in Chi sau all day long without the fear of the permanent type of injuries that could result in their previous sports. But these people do bring a different reality to the Chi sau mix in a positive way.

[anerlich]

"Better ten minutes every day than three hours on Sunday" - Rigan Machado.

Personally, I think the real learning happens outside of class, either personal training or informal sessions with just a few people.

For some people, it IS just a hobby. I've seen few full-time instructors who can afford to turn such people away, or can justify or make a buck demanding a 35 hour a week commitment to training.

Some of these people are nice human beings too. They just don't have the same priorities as you. Vive la difference (sp?).

[PaulH]

You really inspire me! =)

[KenWingJitsu]

Marital arts without fighting is no longer a martial art -- is is folk dancing or tae bo.

MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Oh so brutal, yet oh so true! I am going to love this thread. Even Rene is chiming in haha!

Hey. "Real" doesnt have to be brutal. Just honest. Protective gear, and common sense can prevent injury every time. Once a week of "real" can be just fine. Once a week of chi-sao or forms in your mirror ,.........well read the quote above.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Is this the time and place to make another appeal for an annual all-wing chun tournament?

Wherein the only thing goin' on is actual full contact sparring..with very thin gloves that leave most of the fingers exposed...headgear w/facecage...knee and elbow pads...groin cup...thin agreed-upon shoes/sneakers...weight classes...one three minute round...takedowns and arm/wristlocks allowed...low kicks allowed...you win by submission, knockout, or judge's decision...

Is this just wishful thinking - or a means of providing a real wing chun ACTION forum once-a-year...

where we can actually get to SEE what wing chun works well in close-to-reality combat (ie.- lineages, styles, individuals, etc.)...

and what/who needs to be consigned to the dustheap of once-a-week spindoctor warriors who can't come through when the chips are down?

Just some thoughts...

[Ultimatewingchun]

Now let me clear out some of the under-brush before someone lights a match to it - and we get a fire that is more smoke than substance...

So we'll start with this:

"Good wing chun doesn't need an annual tournament".

(Well thank you for sharing that, Mr. Dinosaur...but we wouldn't expect you to drop by anyway...and good luck with your chi sao. In about another 200 years you'll probably be awesome).

"Wing Chun is too deadly for a tournament...even with very thin gloves...I'd still be seriously handicapped in trying to perform my most devastating techniques...especially since my opponent would be covering up his most vital targets with headgear and facecage."

(Yes, I see your point, Mr. What-a-great-excuse-I've-got-for-not-competing...So for you...well...we'll just shave your head, dress you in a bathing suit, and drop you off at a bus stop by the nearest minority neighborhood to the tournament - with a swastika painted on your chest and back...that oughta give you the opportunity to demonstrate your expertise in the REAL wing chun.)

"I don't have time to train for a tournament like this...I'm too busy writing my next wing chun book/magazine article/website update...and besides...I'd rather go to a seminar and learn more about wing chun fighting theory, lineage, philosophy, backstabbing, denial, public relations, eye-catching kung fu uniforms, and how-to-demo with a partner in chi sao, Butterfly Swords and Dragon Pole...so I'll be a star at the next outdoor school/lineage exhibition."

(I see...okay...well then maybe the winners of the tournament, in their respective weight classes...could come to your next exhibition and help out? Hello?....Hello?...Are you still there?...Hello?...Anybody home?)

[t_niehoff]

The "fighting-doesn't-prepare-you-for-everything-that-can-happen" argument is fallacious --- what does prepare you for everything? Chi sao and drills? Fighting is a brutal, intense, and messy environment; you can only learn to "swim" in that environment by getting in the pool. Does learning to swim mean you'll never drown or that you can deal with any situation that occurs in the water? Of course not. But it is the only way to develop any significant swimming skills.

We don't need special WCK tournaments -- they already exist. NHB venues are everywhere. Gyms, often with "open mats", that have fighters are everywhere. If someone wants to fight, they will do it; if they don't, they'll continue with the folk dancing and believe that somehow magically they'll develop real skill.

BTW, KWJ is absolutely correct about the "honesty" of fighting. That's where "the truth" comes out. MAs should be about, above all things, honesty -- especially with ourselves. It is very easy to mislead oursleves, and others, when there is no fighting.

Terence