capoeira in point sparring and more - here be vid - click this

[Volcano Admim]

here be vid
http://www.multilevelmoves.com/MLMv7/html/modules.php?name=Downloads&d_op=getit&lid=93

one thangs for sure
he doesnt fall like a sack o potatos, unlike olympic TKD guys, who usually do -> dont tell me they dont, i watched last olympics ok.

and **** that mother****er is in good shape
what a mother****er

he doing some gimnastics in there too

[Volcano Admim]

i know point sparring sux
but i was like
hey
vids are okay

[scotty1]

he doesnt fall like a sack o potatos, unlike olympic TKD guys,

Could that be because the TKD guys are going full contact?

EDIT: I'm assuming the guys in the vid aren't if they're point sparring.

[Volcano Admim]

no, the olympic TKD guys i saw on last omlypics on tv really did lack balance

i mean i dont wanna be a tkd basher, but they did
if some do tkd and dont fall like a potato, cool

[scotty1]

Maybe it's because Capoeira people spend a lot of time upside down.

[Volcano Admim]

probably yeah i imagine

[Ray Pina]

Very good!!!!!

That kid has a lot of ability. I was impressed.

One thing though, many of his succesful spinning/jumping kicks were landed after the other guy was moving back from a first, second ir thrid kick.

I'd like to see this kid matched up with someone with a strong foundation who keeps his hands up and comes in. Or to see full fight footage, to see if the guy he fights learns.

But, overall, you have to give the kid an A+ for ability. He's soaking wet in it.

[Judge Pen]

I agree with E-fist. And even though it was point sparring he wasn't pulling some of those spinning kicks. Who here wouldn't want his atheltic ability?

[David Jamieson]

well, i would say that the multilevel moves guys have great athletic ability, but their focus is flash, style and show off stuff. It ain't fighting and in fact most of it is quite impotent from a combat perspective.

But then, so is a lot of what you see in movies too. :D

[Starchaser107]

while it is clear that this fellow has good gymnastic ability, and even though he does have "capo" in his name, imo it seems as if he is using tkd or karate techs as a base, and there isn't much evidence that he is using capoeira in this point sparring....
capoeira is more fluid and organic...this person was very linear in his approach to fighting...
might i add that even with the introduction of spinning kicks, his attack methodology seemed to be more direct and linear.

i think it would be unfair to use this an example of true capoeira in point sparring, which isn't to say this isn't good point sparring.

[Ray Pina]

I don't know, I saw some good stuff in there and I aint a Copaeira fan.

Example, he was very succesful with that lunge/jumping in lead hand where he kind of skoots over and around the defense. But near the end of the video he misses and over extends and needa hand to balance himself .... right away his feet were coming up in a natural flow. That was very good.

His weakness is that he is kind of all over the place and seems to rely on that single lead attack .... which was working, but if someone stood their ground and jammed him then what? The video doesn't show.

Also, like I said, a lot of those kicks landed while his apponant was backing up from the one footed, hop in place point sparring kicks. Someone with more experience would charge in at that point (with their hands up) and put him down.

But they didn't and his stuff was working so I don't want to take that away from him. Over all, he should be proud of himself and so should his teacher. He certainly has enough to take care of himself.

[Judge Pen]

I think the practice of point sparring in general lends itself to linear tkd and karate style attacks. I've seen, in person, other capoeria people point spar using more traditoinal techniques (including the little jig dance they do while fighting) with some limited success, but not enough to be competitive in that format. This guys tornado kick to spinning hook kick combo showed at least a scintella of caporeia in his kicking structure.

I agree that the hopping on one leg while throwing multipe kicks isn't not combat realistic, but the athletic ability to do that and make it look effortless is enviable.


Oh, and E-fist the problem with point sparring as a format is that it's almost impossible to jam a technique without having the point scored against you. Couple that with no groin attacks and no support leg sweeps and you get hoppy lead leg attacks with multiple kicks.

[red5angel]

LOL! I love the responses some people throw out on this forum.

Capoeira is good art, and it can work in combat, period. Regardless of all the gymnastics and that jazz.


of course e-fist you pulled a classic - up the ante again, just to put the guy down, or the art. The guys fighting but that isn't good enough, now he has to go up against a certain type of person. :rolleyes: Weren't you the guy who just made a post abotu people fighting recently?

As for this guy, he's using techniques from capoeira here and there, his training reflects some capoeira as well, and I imagine he is awesome in the roda. He is missing some principles of capoeira, like the moving around that starchaser pointed out. If he added that sort of thing I think he'd be a monster at these things.

[red5angel]

hey volcano admin, can you send me that full link?

[Ray Pina]

First Red, I am praising the guy. Maybe I confused you by saying thing like, "Very good!!!! (with three eclamation points!!!) and "I don't know, I saw some good stuff in there..." after someone else downplayed it.

Second, the guy did everything right because it seemed to be working for him at the time. What me and Judge Pen are engaged in right now is critical analysis to share ideas, learn, study, ect.

I think the guy did great. I simply think the aproach he took to some of those fights could be desastrous against a more agressive, stable fighter. Someone posted a video and I discussed it. I pointed out things I did wrong when I posted my last fight video.

No one is perfect. There is always room for improvement.

And, most if all, we are not talking about a style, we are talking about this very able person. It doesn't matter the style or what others in the style do, it matters what you do.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by red5angel
The guys fighting but that isn't good enough, now he has to go up against a certain type of person. :rolleyes: Weren't you the guy who just made a post abotu people fighting recently? Sorry, but point-sparring doesn't count. With the exteremly limited rules and the stoppage after first contact, it's not a good format to test anything except your ability to play tag.

But that guy could probably do well in a more serious event. He certainly has the talent.

[red5angel]

I simply think the aproach he took to some of those fights could be desastrous against a more agressive, stable fighter.

a huge assumption on your part that his opponents weren't.


And, most if all, we are not talking about a style

yep, in general we should be but it seems like alot of people have a hard time seperating the two. It's the same old arguments, sure this guy has great athletic ability (assuming again he was born with it) but it couldn't be the art cause that one sucks or this one doesn't work.


Sorry, but point-sparring doesn't count


explain that to the two TKD fighters I have fin win street fights with nothing but point sparrig experience.

[Starchaser107]

"Example, he was very succesful with that lunge/jumping in lead hand where he kind of skoots over and around the defense. "

taekwondo

"His weakness is that he is kind of all over the place and seems to rely on that single lead attack "

taekwondo

"Also, like I said, a lot of those kicks landed while his apponant was backing up from the one footed, hop in place point sparring kicks." - e-fist
"I agree that the hopping on one leg while throwing multipe kicks isn't not combat realistic, but the athletic ability to do that and make it look effortless is enviable." - j-pen

taekwondo

"As for this guy, he's using techniques from capoeira here and there, his training reflects some capoeira as well" - red 5

yes but his fighting reflects taekwondo

"And, most if all, we are not talking about a style, we are talking about this very able person. It doesn't matter the style or what others in the style do, it matters what you do."- e-fist

yes , i agree but xebsb..i mean volcano admim, whoever posted this thing, said it was capoeira in point sparring.
imo it is not.

[Akhilleus]

Sorry, but point-sparring doesn't count. With the exteremly limited rules and the stoppage after first contact, it's not a good format to test anything except your ability to play tag.

Really? I think point sparring has some value to it. It shows that you have control. Somebody can use their techniques in point sparring the same way they would in a real fight, they just don't use much power (except for the moves that are illegal (groin shots, throws, etc.).

On the other hand, the rules sometimes do lend themselves to strategies that may not be as effective in a real fight, i.e. standing on one foot and throwing multiple kicks all the time...my main issue with all forms of light contact at the tournaments that I have been to has been the way the rules were enforced...I've seen guys get KO'd in light contact...I saw a kid get his ribs broken once...

[red5angel]

starchaser, I would venture to guess he has a TKD or karate background, but that doesn't make a difference when it comes down to it. Capoeira isn't totally about how you do it so much as just doing it. I saw enough in there to feel comfortable saying he is using it.

He does need to move around more, no ginga, and his approach was alot like a TKD or karate guys in a point sparring tourney, my guess is old habits......

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by Akhilleus
Really? I think point sparring has some value to it. It shows that you have control. Somebody can use their techniques in point sparring the same way they would in a real fight, they just don't use much power

I can agree with that to some extent. The problem is that some techniques that are effectively used in point sparring can't be thrown with any degree of effective power on the street. When people rely upon those techniqes in a venue with different rules, they find out they are deficient pretty quickly.

Oh, and some of the point sparring matches I've participated in DO allow groin shots and support leg sweeps so that helps a little, just not enough imo.

[red5angel]

The problem is that some techniques that are effectively used in point sparring can't be thrown with any degree of effective power on the street.


where do you draw the line? Alot of techniques I have learned cant be practiced at all with anything close to so called reality. Do you agree with the MMA guys that if you can't use it against a "100% resisiting" opponent that it is not efective or effectively useless?

[Akhilleus]

The problem is that some techniques that are effectively used in point sparring can't be thrown with any degree of effective power on the street.

Agreed. That's what I was trying to say in the second part of my post...

As for the groin kicks, I've heard of that before. How does that work? I mean even a light shot to the groin can be fatal if your cup is misaligned. BTW one time when I was doing san shou I got kneed square in the groin and didn't feel a thing. The cup worked perfectly that night.

[Ray Pina]

I'm not assuming anything. Almost all of his apponants back away upon any intitiation. This might be the nature of their style or of the sparring that they are doing but that's what the video shows.

However, read my posts again. They are certainly in favor of this young man's ability. And, while on the subject, ability for the most part is God given but a style will refine it, enhance it a bit and utilize it.

After a few weeks, are you such a devote member of the church of Copeira that you can no longer view it objectively?

[red5angel]

After a few weeks, are you such a devote member of the church of Copeira that you can no longer view it objectively?

nice, real classy e-fist but wrong. Pay attention and you'll see I'm not really discussing capoeira. Also, while your at it check out my posts on capoeira and see how I feel about it in a fight before you make such a dumba$$ assumption like that again. when you're through with that research and you feel like being an adult, you come back to the conversation, but I'm not going to have another one of these retarded arguments on this board and I'm certainly not going to cater to a weak troll attempt. so try again, and try harder this time.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by red5angel
where do you draw the line? Alot of techniques I have learned cant be practiced at all with anything close to so called reality. Do you agree with the MMA guys that if you can't use it against a "100% resisiting" opponent that it is not efective or effectively useless? No, but IME, people who point-spar a lot get comfortable using things like that machine-gun kick that would get them KO'd if it the rules were more realistic or if the fight were for real.

[Starchaser107]

has there been any evidence that people who point spar get into fracasses out on the road or wherever , and don't have the commen sense enough to know that they need to up the ante'
or are we just speculating here?
what is the point of point sparring?

are we saying that we are afraid to point spar because there is a possibility that our bodies will become used to fighting this way?

i'd really like an answer though,
to "what is the purpouse of point sparring?"

____________________________________


red some say ginga doesn't have to be evident (visible) in actual fighting. You have seen this video and have assessed that you think theres enough in there to call it what it's called, if you feel that way I can't say you're wrong and it isn't so, that's not my mission. i'm just saying i don't see it.

oh and this is for everybody .
there are no punches in capoeira, only pushes and sometimes grabs. all strikes are from the feet or the head, also a little slapping maybe with palms open... that is the game as i know it.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by Starchaser107
has there been any evidence that people who point spar get into fracasses out on the road or wherever , and don't have the commen sense enough to know that they need to up the ante'
or are we just speculating here?
what is the point of point sparring?

are we saying that we are afraid to point spar because there is a possibility that our bodies will become used to fighting this way. Evidence? I see it every time we have an open-mat night and the local TKD school 'champions' come to play. Point sparirng is supposed to be a sanitized experience for you to test your skills. But, it's too sanitized and leads to bad habits, poor technique, and compromised form.

For example, most point-fighters adopt a leaning back stance to keep from getting hit. Bad posture like that gets you taken down real quick when rules don't interfere.

[red5angel]

I see it every time we have an open-mat night and the local TKD school 'champions' come to play


are we still talking about reality? or are we talking about open fight night? Because by your logic, open fight night isn't good enough.
As a matter of fact, I'm going to go out on a limb here and say your full of ****. Unless things are drastically different here then where you live, I've seen point sparring guys do just as well on open fight night as anyone else. Wann know why that is MK, I'll tell you so you don't press that ridicluous claim, it's because point fighters who go to things like open fight nights, are obviously interested in more then point fighting, and most likely, unless they are a newbie, understand the weak claims your argument makes.

[Fu-Pow]

Points....

1) Point sparring is lame-o.

I saw once in that video where the dude fell down as he punched the opponent and he got a point. Also you see a lot of "points" where he comes up on one leg and hits the guy from the top. This is about as far from real fighting as you can possibly get.

2) That guy is in very good shape and is very athletic.

I'm sure most of us wish we were in that kind of shape and had that kind of natural athletic ability. Props to that guy for training so hard.

3) That guy probably was a gymnast before getting into Capoiera, TKD or whatever.

You saw him doing some windmill type exercises on the floor and doing the aerials off the trampoline.

4) Using the techs that guy was using you would get eaten alive by almost any guy trained in CMA or even a streetfighter.

I'm sorry but those spinning back crescents, jumping side kicks, aerials and punching from one foot may work well in point sparring but would get you killed in something like San Shou let alone a street fight. This guy should take his athletic ability and learn something useful.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by red5angel
As a matter of fact, I'm going to go out on a limb here and say your full of ****. Unless things are drastically different here then where you live, I've seen point sparring guys do just as well on open fight night as anyone else. Wann know why that is MK, I'll tell you so you don't press that ridicluous claim, it's because point fighters who go to things like open fight nights, are obviously interested in more then point fighting, and most likely, unless they are a newbie, understand the weak claims your argument makes. Plenty of people from all around come to open-mat nights at the various schools (not just mine). The only ones that get regularly owned are the guys from the local TKD school that teaches point fighting. You see, these guys think THAT IS fighting, so when it comes to a more open environment with less rules, they usually don't know how to adjust.

That is just my experience. Yours, of course, may differ.

[red5angel]

3) That guy probably was a gymnast before getting into Capoiera, TKD or whatever.

its possible. What I'm finding is that most guys start out in anothe rmartial art that requires some gymnastic ability, wushu, TKD, whatever. They get into capoeira, then end up getting into gymnastics in some way, even if it's just to learn how to do more capoeira. I'm going ot start going ot the monday night open gym with some of my other classmates to learn.

[Judge Pen]

Red,

I think you and MK are both right. I've seen good fighters do well in point sparring. I've also seen excellent point sparring get owned in any type of non-stop sparring with any degree of medium to heavy contact allowed. I think that if you train in both you may be ok as long as you understand the rules and strategy in both. The problem is, as MK has said, that many people can't make that crossover. We are creatures of habit to some degree.

[Ray Pina]

The reason I don't like point sparring is that it awards the guy for sacraficing his pawn but doesn't recognize that that sacrafice can very well lead to his being checkmated.

For example, you land one of those little hoppy side kicks. So what? I could keep my arms down by my side and your promise to kick me in the stomach like that and I'll gladly walk right into it, take the slight impact and jam you. In real life I'll grab the leg, drive you back and try to dump you in an uncomfortable position, possibly your head.

It's not pleasant to say or adress, but fighting is often about trading, making a little bit on every exchange.

Personally, I think it is better to spar freely under the guidance of a teacher, who will let you get overwhelmed but then stop it the moment someone gets a little too much control or a dangerous situation arises. But let the exchange go to at least 3 moves per side.
......

Red. I have to be honest with you. I typed up a few posts but deleted them out of kindness, but since you wanted to hear from me I'll be blunt.

You remind me of the little fat kid in the group who becomes overly defensive when someone calls out, "Where's my Snicker bar?"

Maybe for good reason. I started thinking this way a while back when that whole, "it's impossible to train full power" thread was going around. I don't want to put words in your mouth so maybe you do the research. And also a few months before this, according to you, Wing Chun provided you with everything you needed (did you truly test it outside of your school under full contact conditions to come to this conclusion?). But then wait, you were going to a MMA program. And then all of a sudden your WC training was missing something .... but wasn't it giving you everything?

And now Capeiera is giving you everything. This is great that you find merit in so much, truly. But I have to say, I regard you as someone who may have seen some, read a lot, knows the talk but doesn't walk the walk.

Now, you may say that is a HUGE assumption. But I get the feeling that you aint a fighter the same way I got the feeling the kid I saw in the mall with the GAP "surfing" T-shirt on with his GAP "surfing" shorts pulled up to his nipples isn't a surfer.

[Starchaser107]

them thar truly be fighting words

[Judge Pen]

So it begins. . . .

[Ford Prefect]

I don't think Red likes Snicker's bars. He strikes me more of a Milky Way guy. That's what I think anyway.

[red5angel]

couple a things e-fist -




You remind me of the little fat kid in the group who becomes overly defensive when someone calls out, "Where's my Snicker bar?"

funny, I think thats how everyone thought of "bak mei" too. Trying to give evolutionfist a second chance. Still preachy, but now it's not jus about your master, its about "Real" fighting. Get a few videos of you sparring and suddenly you got the truth to bring to the masses? like:



Wing Chun provided you with everything you needed (did you truly test it outside of your school under full contact conditions to come to this conclusion?)

hey anyone hear a broken record? I've been fighting full contact around town now for over a year if it makes you feel better. Now you can finally stop asking that question, or preaching to the choir.
On wingchun, if you had been paying attention over the last year or so, you'd have already been informed of all that.



And now Capeiera is giving you everything. This

guess you didn't take my advice before opening your trap so I'm going to take you by the hand and help you out this once. Next time you'll be expected to do your own homework before putting your foot in your mouth.

I've said already I got into capoeira because it's fun as hell and not necessarily practical. Wanna know what I think about the art itself? I'll repeat myself, it's not the most efficient art, I wouldn't even call it the most effective, it certainly doesn't rate up there with wingchun and muy thai. If your good at it and apply yourself, like, say....the guy in that video you didn't seem to watch, you might be able to get away with it more often then not. I can say that with confidence because I don't have an overblown sense of what I'm learning or what I can do. A chump on a drunk could take me out if everything comes together right. I'm certainly not retarded enough to write it off with just a little bit of knowledge and only having watched two guys do it on a beach. That last is a freebie, next time I'll charge ya'.


But I have to say, I regard you as someone who may have seen some, read a lot, knows the talk but doesn't walk the walk.

apparently thats how you regard most of us on this forum. Good to see the old Bak Mei is back. All full up on the knowledge he has that we don't. Tell you waht there chubby, Meat Shake and Captn Pickaxe are coming up north here in a few months. We're gonna throw down a little then drink alot, I'll let them report all they want.


assumption

funny word coming from you. Maybe go back and look over your posts again, see where it might come in handy.



Jude pen - "I've seen good fighters do well in point sparring. " agred, and thats my point. I'm not so quick to write off someone because they like to point fight or they don't fit into my tiny little idea of what "fighting" is all about. Alot of the point fighters I respect fight outside of the ring as well, for fun, for the challange or to continue learning how to fight, the point aspect is a hobby, and a challange in its own right.

[red5angel]

I don't think Red likes Snicker's bars. He strikes me more of a Milky Way guy. That's what I think anyway.


I gotta go with Twix or 3 Musketeers.

[Judge Pen]

The last tournament that I fought in had point sparring and a non-stop division. I'm not a fan of point sparring, but I do it just to see if I can guage a guy's first move later and warm up a bit for the non-stop. I got lucky for a slow **** like me and got 2nd place in the point sparring and third in the non-stop. The point sparring was nothing more than a game--and fun at that.

Oh, and someone asked about groin shots in point sparring. You just hope that your cup is on right. But it keeps the hoppy one-leg multiple kicks down to a minimum.

[Starchaser107]

real men eat butterfingers

[Ray Pina]

My experience with your art of the month was not "watching" (is that what you're doing at these fight nights?) but crossing hands with both of them .... or at least my hand with their upside down foot. I put them both down on the first exchange. How good were they I don't know but they were flipping and rolling all over the place -- even with poles -- before I aproached them. They said they train at a serious place in Queens and the other one said the same about a place in Manhattan.

With that said, I actualy like to dicuss the how's and why's of situations, tactics, shapes, intentions. I don't like talking about my fights, at least the wins. The only fight I have posted here was a loss. There have been many wins.

Anyway Red, maybe the next time I'm in your state we can get together if you don't have to do this or that like the last time I was up by you.

Peace
Ray

[FatherDog]

There's nothing wrong with training for point sparring. There's also nothing wrong with training for tennis. Neither one is going to make you a better fighter, though.

[red5angel]

real men eat butterfingers


real men stand behind me after eating butterfingers:eek:



*yawn*. Are you done with the cheap shots e-fist or would you like to keep it up? Atleast bak mei was consistant with his inconsistancies and preaching, can't you go back to him?

[Meat Shake]

Originally posted by FatherDog
There's nothing wrong with training for point sparring. There's also nothing wrong with training for tennis. Neither one is going to make you a better fighter, though.


Father dog has kicked the correct in the junk and scored a point.

[Starchaser107]

"real men stand behind me after eating butterfingers"

want me to use vaseline this time or not... u screamed like a little ***** the last time

[red5angel]

no the screaming was coming from your mom I was wailing on when you tried to dry hump my leg. Keep trying though straight shooter! ;):D

[Meat Shake]

<isnt touching that one

[Ford Prefect]

Originally posted by red5angel
I gotta go with Twix or 3 Musketeers.

That's funny. I trying to chose between Milky Way, Twix, and 3 Muskateers.

[red5angel]

Twix, you get twice the fun for the same price! It' slike buying a candybar, then getting a prize inside that's another candybar!

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by red5angel
Twix, you get twice the fun for the same price! It' slike buying a candybar, then getting a prize inside that's another candybar! Funny.....you said the same thing about Tranny prostitutes last year.

[Starchaser107]

denial is the first stage.

u need to confront your fears red..
what should i do with the pictures?

[red5angel]

Funny.....you said the same thing about Tranny prostitutes last year.


bwahahahahaha, minus the candybar that is, or maybe not.....




u need to confront your fears red..

my only fear starchaser is you figuring out what the little thing you keep massagnig with your hand is and breeding, on accident or on purpose!

[Starchaser107]

if we use protection u wont breed.

[red5angel]

I think I"m actually disgusted and shocked.......ok maybe not. :)