Advanced Soft Wing Chun - Hawkins Cheung

[AdrianUK]

Hi All

I just read an Article by Hawkins Cheung on his website about a more advanced level of Wing Chun where you are softer and don't rely on structure so much, this sounds a little like the WT way of doing things, is this common to other WC lineages, I have only ever seen every one else go the structure route ? Any more information on this would be gratefully received

Regards,
Adrian

[KPM]

Originally posted by AdrianUK
Hi All

I just read an Article by Hawkins Cheung on his website about a more advanced level of Wing Chun where you are softer and don't rely on structure so much, this sounds a little like the WT way of doing things, is this common to other WC lineages, I have only ever seen every one else go the structure route ? Any more information on this would be gratefully received

Regards,
Adrian


Are you sure that's right? Sounds backwards to me. In my experience, the softer your Wing Chun becomes (meaning the less muscle and brute strength used), the more important good structure becomes.

Keith

[Ernie]

First off let me state I am not a student of Hawkins, but more a friend, so his students would best serve to explain, but when I first met the man after he told me how easily he could just kill me =)
He explained that when your good there is no tan, bong, fook, you only use what’s in between. I didn’t understand it then, many years later and many chi sau opportunities with him, and I understand, he was speaking of transition and adapting, when you fight and try and apply a static shape you are no longer relating, your are crashing and bouncing you are attempting to do your forms against a person, this is the hard way, when you have a high level of sensitivity you mold to the persons energy, your intent seeps through the weakness in his motion or posture, this is much more organic no time or energy to waste on static wedging shapes

[CFT]

This is where someone says 'be water my friend', right? ;)

Ernie, do you mean that for example you try to perform a tan sau, but are obstructed in some way before you can reach the ideal 'form' of the tan; you say "OK that's fine, I won't force it, I'll just transition into bong sau (for example)".

So fighting is not about performing the ideal shapes of WC. They are just ideals and guide us in what techniques we might want to use. From your description, through sensitivity drilled through chi sau (for sake of argument), the opponent shows us how to defeat them (to paraphrase my WC elders).

[Ernie]

This is where someone says 'be water my friend', right?

---- Very much so, water with intent flowing in and out, crashing in and out

Ernie, do you mean that for example you try to perform a tan sau,

---- I’m picking on your example but I do understand what you are saying, but to play devils advocate --- there is no tan to be performed only intent moving toward a goal, to make a tan there would be certain pre requisites, elbow down, wrist, fingers, creating angles, this is a shape unto itself not a concept relating to a person or energy

But are obstructed in some way before you can reach the ideal 'form' of the tan; you say "OK that's fine, I won't force it, I'll just transition into bong sau (for example)".

----- Yes and no, to transition from one attempted static shape to another [though effective] is still not relating, just a mechanical change. When you reach the point of obstruction and your intent of going forward is stalled, if you have sensitivity you feel what is obstructing you, is it going up down to the side is it rigid or soft, the ability to hear this gives you the necessary information to continue on your path, wither I yield, bend, let go, or just go straight through depends on what the person is telling me.
Changing a subtle angle or slight shift in position, or letting the hand go and continuing with the other hand are quieter more efficient alterations then creating a static shape.

In the end there is just a focal point, a curve, or a line, what shape or combined parts of shapes that help transmit the energy is not as relevant

So fighting is not about performing the ideal shapes of WC. They are just ideals and guide us in what techniques we might want to use. From your description, through sensitivity drilled through chi sau (for sake of argument), the opponent shows us how to defeat them (to paraphrase my WC elders).

To quote from that elder, don’t be a slave, use what you need

Now I hate talking techniques, since I don’t think or operate on a technique level anymore, so forgive me for tapping out, if you wish to continue a dialogue on this type of stuff hit me on a email

[CFT]

Ernie,

Obviously you are in a totally different league compared to me, so thanks for offering the dialogue, but I don't think I'll waste your time on this occasion.

It is fascinating to read about this, and something to bear in mind as a long term goal. I think I'm only understanding 10% of what you've written.

Good post !!

[reneritchie]

It's funny how much the word 'structure' gets tossed around now. What Cheung sifu refers to as structure is not what most other people use the word for in my experience. 'Soft', if possible, has even more variance.

Ernie- When I met Cheung sifu he was telling a 200+lbs WCK guy that at roughly half his weight, he (Cheung) could blast right through him (200lbs guy). Then he showed it. Never seen a guy get Chi Sao'd half way up a wall before.

I think this is part of the reason people can watch an old-timer do something and think there's no WCK, because they're looking for the form not the function, or the cliched finger not the moon. When you get to a certain level, the internalization allows you to achieve a lot with a very little.

[YongChun]

I studied under various teachers. In 1982, I studied under Dr. Khoe who was a private student of Wang Kiu he said to use your muscles only for attack but your structure for defense. He said he hated when people talked about soft in martial arts. He said you cannot just be soft. Instead he liked the word INTERNAL to describe what he did.

Then I have met another teacher who didn't like the word internal because it could be taken the wrong way as internal energy that he said he didn't rely on or possess as far as he knew. Instead he said it was just good body mechanics.

In fact William C.C. Chen the Tai Chi master who learned from Cheng Man Ching, also told me the same thing. He was also a believer of highly refined body mechanics and didn't attribute anything to Chi power. His feeling was very soft but he hit like a truck yet he did have structure in his movements.

What Dr. Khoe saw was that many students were using too much muscle to hold back forces, to push forces away. He himself was very supple and relaxed at all times and the only time you felt something diferent was when you got hit. Yet he always used the positions from the forms. You could clearly see Tan sau, Bong sau, Fook sau, Jut sau etc.

I asked Dr. Khoe if his teacher Wang Kiu was that relaxed. He said where do you think I got it from? So his answer was yes. Then I met Wang Kiu and he told stories of Lok Yiu being very very soft but was able to hit very powerfully. He said you could see Lok Yiu's movements coming but couldn't stop them. He didn't know much about Leung Sheung. Wang Kiu said the early generation mostly all had this very relaxed feeling. He said Yip Man taught that to all and that it wasn't the case that as he got older that he got to teaching a softer approach to Wing Chun.

In the early 1990's I met Kenneth Chung and had the chance to play with him for an hour. I expected that as long as he had some structure then I could apply Pak sau, Bill sau or whatever and do something. However at that time he offered me nothing that I could work with. He was very relaxed as if he had no bones and he was very rooted and hit powerfully. My success rate was zero whereas with anyone else I had met before then I always had some success. Kenneth Chun used structure but it was not a rigid structure. It was like an illusion of structure. As soon as you touched that structure it wouldn't exist anymore and would change to something else.

One of our female students had the opportunity to Chi sau with Wong Shun Leung in Hong Kong. On his video tape he looks very snappy, forceful and quite structured. But this student said in Chi sau with her, he was very relaxed, very sticky very sensitive and very good. She had felt many kinds of Wing Chun before that.

I think a good athlete of any kind or a good musician of any kind eventually is able to perform from a very relaxed state. From this state they can flow, they can be hard, they can be soft , they can be anything inbetween.

Soft sometimes has the connotation of just being limp. But just being limp doesn't work. In a limp state the body parts are not connected and don't work together very well. Being too rigid is also not a good thing. I have met various Wing Chun students who work with very rigid structures and attained a fair level of skill. However I think this approach is more limiting and more tiring than the relaxed approach.

Some good people in martial arts don't seem to have any form or they have such a large variety of forms that there seems to be no form. But if you would take a stop action snapshot of their action, then you would see what looks like form. In action there is only attack and change.

On the relaxed approach, I once met a student of Lok Yiu who used to teach for Lok Yu in Hong Kong. His name was Winston Wan. At the time I was pretty relaxed and had no problems handling all kinds of people. However he picked me apart like a true chess master would pick apart a novice chess player. His comment to me was to practice in a little more firm structured way for six months in order to establish the proper connections between my body parts. He said soft is good but unless you have the sensitivity and skill to back it up, it's also a good way to get yourself killed.

One more thing about soft. In the 1970's, I studied Tai Chi under master Raymond Chung his students were very very soft in their feeling. They were difficult to attack because there was nothing there. Nothing was presented to attack. But the master himself didn't feel soft at all. Yet when I pushed the master from any angle, in any direction there was always no resisitance. My pushed always went somewhere and I could not find something to lock onto. So he was sort of like pushing a bicyle wheel. The wheel itself is not a soft object at all yet when you push on the wheel, it merely rotates and thus neutralizes the force.

[Ernie]

[[Ernie,

Obviously you are in a totally different league compared to me, so thanks for offering the dialogue, but I don't think I'll waste your time on this occasion.

It is fascinating to read about this, and something to bear in mind as a long term goal. I think I'm only understanding 10% of what you've written.
]]
Good post !!]]

--- no one is ahead of any other we are all heading to the same place , just happen to be on different points on the journey ;)


rene
Ernie- When I met Cheung sifu he was telling a 200+lbs WCK guy that at roughly half his weight, he (Cheung) could blast right through him (200lbs guy). Then he showed it. Never seen a guy get Chi Sao'd half way up a wall before.


ha ha man i have been that 200 pound guy , and i have even sparred with him gloves and no gloves he was even better then his chi sau , i have alot of respect for that crafty old man :D
and i know i am blessed to have him and gary dropping gems on me , credit were credit is do

ray,
problem with the soft teaching is a high level guy will seem very soft and yes hit like a truck , but he got there through the hard door , to be soft you must understand hard , this way you know yourself and how to evolve past your own tension and '' hear '' it in others .
students of soft people try and emulate the soft and just get mushy , never really get the snap in there energy that connects the structure tranmission to the ground and the mind ,
they become good at , letting power pass through them but seem to lack issueing power .

so even the soft must be hard and the hard must learn to be soft
being able to swim in both pools , you can get the benifits of both :D

[old jong]

when you fight and try and apply a static shape you are no longer relating,

Bizarre thing to say!...Statics "shapes" are not something I know of in Wing Chun. IMO, Tan bong and fook and all the variants are motions,They are made of the whole process of doing them,not just the final "shape" of them.

[Ernie]

Bizarre thing to say!...Statics "shapes" are not something I know of in Wing Chun. IMO,



now your the special one :D

[YongChun]

Originally posted by Ernie
[[Ernie,



ray,
problem with the soft teaching is a high level guy will seem very soft and yes hit like a truck , but he got there through the hard door , to be soft you must understand hard , this way you know yourself and how to evolve past your own tension and '' hear '' it in others .
students of soft people try and emulate the soft and just get mushy , never really get the snap in there energy that connects the structure tranmission to the ground and the mind ,
they become good at , letting power pass through them but seem to lack issueing power .

so even the soft must be hard and the hard must learn to be soft
being able to swim in both pools , you can get the benifits of both :D

That's one of those debatable issues. Kenneth Chung thinks the soft way from the start like in Tai Chi might also work however himself went through the rough and tough method first. That's not to say he wasn't taught to relax and be soft from the start but he was the typical Wing Chun teenager in Hong Kong who found the harder style worked. I think going the hard way first gets the fear of the hard stylists out and then it's easier to be relaxed. Kenneth Chung said the only problem with the hard is that some people have a very difficult time to lose that. But then 99% of the Tai Chi people who profess the soft way, are never able to use their art. The ones that can often have a hard style background in Karate, Judo or Kung Fu. So I agree with you.

[Nick Forrer]

Originally posted by YongChun

One of our female students had the opportunity to Chi sau with Wong Shun Leung in Hong Kong. On his video tape he looks very snappy, forceful and quite structured. But this student said in Chi sau with her, he was very relaxed, very sticky very sensitive and very good. She had felt many kinds of Wing Chun before that.


I was asking my teacher the other day what WSL felt like to Chi Sau with. He said that he was very relaxed- to the point that it felt like there was nothing there. Someone who didnt know better might think they could rush through and hit him but as soon as they would try (as one of my classmates did) his elbow would 'scoop' in and his strike would knock them (literally in this case) across the floor.

He (WSL) did also say, though, when he came to England and saw a lot of the chi sau being done by other lineages (who shall remain nameless) that a good karate or Muai Thai Guy would just go straight through them because of their lack of structure and their lack of forward pressure (lat sau Jik Chung).

[Ernie]

Ray,
Probably best to break it down to attack and defense,
If a person has intent and is attacking to do damage [hard way in early stages] the signals are loud and reactions huge yet easy to follow, this person gets to express himself, feel his balance or lack of when trying to go all out

On the defensive side, no need to give to much [softer] let the other guy do all the works, let him scream with his power stay calm and find his weakness it will be there

To expose both concepts early on might give the students reference points to judge and be honest with there power and ability to generate and dissipate.

If every one is going hard then no one is listening every one is yelling, talking over each other.
If every one is going soft then there is not real honest energy to listen to, neither guy wants to give to much since it will be used against him, this might take an eternity and when some one really puts it on you might cause your nervous system to stall.


Even now in my training, I have been told to just let them blast away with all the got and I have to flow from position to position never hitting back just to spend time listening while some one is really honestly trying to take my head off

Kind of sucks doing all defense, shots are bound to get in ‘’ ouch ‘’ ha ha

Later you can play with both combined inside of each action, even in our chi sau we have a hard and soft hand on at all times, one questions one listens and they will alternate depending on the read.

But this is just chi sau no big deal

[Zhuge Liang]

Hi Ernie,


Originally posted by Ernie
students of soft people try and emulate the soft and just get mushy , never really get the snap in there energy that connects the structure tranmission to the ground and the mind ,
they become good at , letting power pass through them but seem to lack issueing power .

Agreed with what you said, but I'd like to point out that it works both ways. There are students that start out hard and never learns how to become soft. I'm sure you know of few of them.

I believe you definitely need both, and it's not that one is better than the other. I don't think being hard or being soft is neccessarily the key. I think the key lies in the ability to transition between hard and soft in the proper time and place.

The reason we hear so many people talk about being soft, I think, is because being hard is easy. We don't need to talk about being hard because we all know how to be hard. And because we don't talk about it as often, "being soft" gets talked about more dispproportionately, and that can lead people to get the impression that soft is supposed to be better than hard.

Just some rambling thoughts.

Regards,
Alan

[Matrix]

Originally posted by Ernie
He explained that when your good there is no tan, bong, fook, you only use what’s in between. I didn’t understand it then, many years later and many chi sau opportunities with him, and I understand, he was speaking of transition and adapting, when you fight and try and apply a static shape you are no longer relating, your are crashing and bouncing you are attempting to do your forms against a person, this is the hard way, when you have a high level of sensitivity you mold to the persons energy, your intent seeps through the weakness in his motion or posture, this is much more organic no time or energy to waste on static wedging shapes Ernie,
So much said in so few words. Wow!! Kudos my friend. :)

Bill

[Nick Forrer]

I think 'soft' might be someting of a misnomer

I prefer 'free'- this has the connotation of flowing i.e. transitioning/changing swiftly and without hesitation from one attack or action to another.

As my teacher likes to say ' In wing chun its not about how fast you can attack, its about how fast you can change from one attack to another '

[Ernie]

Agreed with what you said, but I'd like to point out that it works both ways. There are students that start out hard and never learns how to become soft. I'm sure you know of few of them.


hell yes , spent 2 hours working with a few of them last night ;)
teaching some to be soft when hard has worked well for them is not easy ,
you have to prove it to them by shutting them down , and of course they turn it up and try harder and faster
shut em down again and after there sitting there covered in sweat and shaking with a bloody lip , the start to listen

i guess that's why they call it the school of hard knocks :D




p.s. alan i'm planning a little frisco run this summer :D

[Ernie]

I think 'soft' might be someting of a misnomer

I prefer 'free'- this has the connotation of flowing i.e. transitioning/changing swiftly and without hesitation from one attack or action to another.

As my teacher likes to say ' In wing chun its not about how fast you can attack, its about how fast you can change from one attack to another


nick i see it a bit different speed kills for sure , if it's intiation or transition speed

but the ability to be slow in the face of speed is were the freedom is , timing pure clear smooth timing :D

[Ernie]

Originally posted by Matrix
Ernie,
So much said in so few words. Wow!! Kudos my friend. :)

Bill

Wish i could take credit , but at least i learned the lesson and pass it on when ever i can [ it's how we give back :) ]

[Ultimatewingchun]

I'd like to give my take on this...

"He (Hawkins Cheung) explained that when you're good there is no tan, bong, fook, you only use what’s in between. I didn’t understand it then, many years later and many chi sau opportunities with him, and I understand, he was speaking of transition and adapting..."

If you have reached the point where you're good enough to constantly attack outright...or intercept an attack with offense of your own - before your opponent can really "deliver" his attack deep into your terrtitory...if your sensitivity has been developed to the point where you can shortcircuit or circumvent his offense (and defense) before it even gets started...if your footwork has been developed to the point where you're constantly positioning your body in an advantageous place...if you're constantly putting pressure on your opponent's body...if you're constantly isolating two of your arms against one of his..

then there will be less and less need to use tan, bong, and fuk...as these are mainly DEFENSIVE in nature.

The best defense is offense...but it takes years of training to make that a secure reality.

[Zhuge Liang]

Ernie: p.s. alan i'm planning a little frisco run this summer

You know you're more than welcomed up here. Let me know when. I'd like you to help keep a few of our folks honest ;)

Victor: The best defense is offense...but it takes years of training to make that a secure reality.

Interesting your bring this up, because I was talking to Ken (my instructor) about this last night. He mentioned that back in the day, he would be on constant offense, cutting people off before they get a chance to initiate anything. These days, and this is the point he was trying to get across to me, he is more comfortable with allowing the other person to initiate first while he "collects" them, resulting in the other guy being put in a severe positional disadvantage. The reason I mention this is because he said that for him, the reason he would cut people off back in the day was because he was less secure, and he did not want to risk letting the other guy do something functional. These days, he's more secure, and doesn't feel he needs to cut people off at the outset. That's not to say he doesn't cut people off when the time is right, but the intention is different.

Just thought I'd bring up a different perspective.

Regards,
Alan

[Ernie]

Originally posted by Zhuge Liang
Ernie: p.s. alan i'm planning a little frisco run this summer

You know you're more than welcomed up here. Let me know when. I'd like you to help keep a few of our folks honest ;)

Victor: The best defense is offense...but it takes years of training to make that a secure reality.

Interesting your bring this up, because I was talking to Ken (my instructor) about this last night. He mentioned that back in the day, he would be on constant offense, cutting people off before they get a chance to initiate anything. These days, and this is the point he was trying to get across to me, he is more comfortable with allowing the other person to initiate first while he "collects" them, resulting in the other guy being put in a severe positional disadvantage. The reason I mention this is because he said that for him, the reason he would cut people off back in the day was because he was less secure, and he did not want to risk letting the other guy do something functional. These days, he's more secure, and doesn't feel he needs to cut people off at the outset. That's not to say he doesn't cut people off when the time is right, but the intention is different.

Just thought I'd bring up a different perspective.

Regards,
Alan


it's a question of timeing , do i move ahead of his timeing and just shut him down make him more concerned with himself then hitting me

or do i let him show me the way [ behind the timeing of the first action but ahead of the second ]

if you have your own power and the person is weak being ahead is very effecient

if the person can take your power and still come at you then you will have to borrow his force this would put you behind for a second

work both sides

often we learn more from losing and recovering then winning all the time :D

as for frisco and keeping people honest i was hopeing you would keep me honest ;)

if i put it together i'll call you

[PaulH]

I'm thankful that you two mention the soft/sensitive side of Wong's Chi Sau, Ray and Nick. My dream would come true when I can just ask and answer no more! Pure and direct simplicity! Thank you all for such a rare, wonderful, and stimulating thread!

Regards,
PH

[Ultimatewingchun]

"Back in the day, he would be on constant offense, cutting people off before they get a chance to initiate anything. These days...he is more comfortable with allowing the other person to initiate first while he "collects" them, resulting in the other guy being put in a severe positional disadvantage....

he said that for him, the reason he would cut people off back in the day was because he was less secure, and he did not want to risk letting the other guy do something functional.

These days, he's more secure, and doesn't feel he needs to cut people off at the outset. That's not to say he doesn't cut people off when the time is right, but the intention is different." (Zhuge Liang...Alan)


For me, there has been a very different growth pattern in terms of defense and offense...I spent many years concentrating much more on defense than offense...always training to be able to weather all kinds of attacks...more than I trained my offense - which is not to say that I neglected offense - far from it...

but the emphasis was on defense first...counters to being attacked...counters to his counters when I did attack, etc.

And I'm talking about MANY years of training like this...until it got to the point where my defense became outstanding...regardless of what kind of attack came at me...boxing, kickboxing. karate, TKD, wing chun, grappling, Thai-boxing, etc.

At that point...I felt secure enough to REALLY start concentrating on offense...offense...offense.

Just shut the man down by always attacking - at least in principle - because needless to say...it doesn't always work that way...within the space of five seconds you could be attacking - completely defending - counterattacking, and so on.

Such is the way real fighting unfolds.

But in the final analysis - like a chessgame - the player with white has a slight advantage - because he gets to attack first.

The best defense is offense; or at the very least, attack INTO his attack whenever possible.

[Matrix]

Originally posted by Ernie
Wish i could take credit , but at least i learned the lesson and pass it on when ever i can [ it's how we give back :) ] Well, I for one am glad that you are passing the words of wisdom around. :cool:

Thanks,
Bill

[yylee]

may I ask? which article are we talking about here? If there is a link to it I would really appreciate, thanks :)

[AdrianUK]

Links to Articles

http://www.hawkinscheung.com/

Then
Article

Notes on Hard/Soft H.C., W.C.

Also mentioned in the article about Bruce Lee in the same section

Thanks for the replies

Regards,
Adrian

[stuartm]

Originally posted by Nick Forrer
I think 'soft' might be someting of a misnomer

I prefer 'free'- this has the connotation of flowing i.e. transitioning/changing swiftly and without hesitation from one attack or action to another.

As my teacher likes to say ' In wing chun its not about how fast you can attack, its about how fast you can change from one attack to another '

Hi Nick,

I sort of agree with you, in that being able to recycle your hands is so important in allowing your techniques to flow and to take advantage of the committment of your opponent. However, I think a little speed goes along way - as long as that speed uses the correct energy. I think a lot of thetime people associate speed with power, rather than speed with energy.

In Ip Ching Wing Chun we concentrate a great deal on recycling attacks and being able to change freely and quickly into another attack/ We call it Fan Sao or 'returning hands'. When practising initially we slow it down to its basics and explore how certain techniques will work in certain situations, which angle is the best for the exceution of the technique, response and counter-response. When the student is comfortable with the process we build it up the speed level. Much of this Fan Sao theory comes from the way in which we teach the dummy in that it is not just a set series of moves but the free flow of technique from one position to another.

IMHO, if you can change smoothly from one situation to another with speed and the correct energy, it has many advantages.

Regards, Stuart

[AdrianUK]

Hi,

Interesting points being raised here but the original purpose of the question is still unanswered, in the posted articles (particularly the one re Bruce Lee) he explains about the shapes yielding. I read this as follows, in the 2 other WC styles I have seen the Bong (for instance) was used as a rigid structure, deflection of the incoming attack occurred due to strenght of the structure in the shape, in WT I am taught to use the bong as a deflective tool, flowing around the incoming force not stopping it head on. This is probably only a simple level explanation, but thats the level I am still at !

Ok, can guys who are far further down the road expand on this ?

Thanks
Adrian

[CFT]

Originally posted by Ernie
ha ha man i have been that 200 pound guy , and i have even sparred with him gloves and no gloves he was even better then his chi sau , i have alot of respect for that crafty old man :DIt's hard to believe that the young firebrand of yesteryear is now an 'old man', albeit a crafty and dangerous one!!

[stuartm]

Adrian,

I will try and provide some personal insight.

Ultimately i feel there is no hard and fast rule. Who says that you can only use a bong sau this way or that way - no one. My Si-Gung Ip Ching told a story at the 1999 Wing Chun conference about asking his father if he could change the uppercut punch in biu jee to a jic kuen. Ip Man said he could do what he wanted as long as he could show that it worked and that it was an improvement on what had gone before. Interpretation and development are essential in any martial art or we'd still be walking round grunting and beating each other with clubs.

Looking at Bong Sau , the classic explanation is that Bong Sau is to deflect. I would argue that one function of bong is to divert. Deflect implies we lose contact when using a bong, rather than finding the attack diverting and responding. Bong can fold into a cup jarn / pie jan into a fak sau, can turn to a lan if its pulled / pushed. If you can make your bong sau work for a certain situation, then who is to say that that is the wrong interpretation.

I always encourage my students to question and shape their own opinions. If one of them says to me 'I dont like tan sau - its useless'. I will say 'fine - now explain to me in application why you think so'. Always explore each wing chun shape and look at its strengths and weaknesses in differing situations. As a teacher (i use the term loosely !!!), i really welcome my students questioning my interpretation as it encourages me to constantly re-evaluate my thinking.

Always listen, always question and you'll always learn and develop.

Stu

;)

[Matrix]

Originally posted by Ernie
it's a question of timeing , do i move ahead of his timeing and just shut him down make him more concerned with himself then hitting me

or do i let him show me the way [ behind the timeing of the first action but ahead of the second ]
Ernie,
Your comments reminded me of something that I had recently read. It's from the book "The Combat Philiosophy of Wong Shun Leung" by David Peterson. It's a great book by the way. Well worth the price.

Here's a quote that struck me with respect to your post;

"This was an essential part of the "Wong Shun Leung Way", to let the opponent dictate the course of the fight whenever possible. Sifu always felt that having a set idea of how the fight would progress would prevent one from responding effectively to the inevitable changes that would occur. His fight plan was, in essence, to have little or no fight plan at all. Assuming to know how the opponent would move was, in his opinion, assuming too much. He would simply allow his opponent to direct his own destruction, to "make the first mistake", as it were, and then capitalize on this move with a lethal counter measure. Sifu would generally say that his strategy was, "To attack his opponent after they had thrown their first attack, and before they could attempt a second one." Of course his experience told him that there were occasions where making the first move was valid and practical, but only when the opponent was already compromised in some way, whether that be physically, psychologically, emotionally, or whatever. In effect, this was still a case of letting the opponent "show you how to hit him."

[Ernie]

Bill

Got the book, hell even before the book was out David Peterson sent me a ton of stuff on Wong, David is one of my Hero's in the wing chun world, I have never met any one with such a devotion and passion for his Sifu, Wing chun, and as a teacher
Definitely a roll model and inspiration

And as you can see, he has rubbed off quite a bit

If you ever have the chance to meet him, don’t let the opportunity pass you by
:D

[Matrix]

Ernie,

Very cool :cool:
I'm a big fan as well. He sent me a few "bonus" articles with the book when I ordered it. I was very pleased to say the least. I know that David visits this forum, so I won't embarass him too much. ;)

Take Care,
Bill

[Nick Forrer]

He was kind enough to sign my copy when he came and did a seminar at our club:)

[PaulH]

You guys make me puked! I'm a WC addict because I was too dumb to sample some of DP's articles back in those early days. I want my life back! =)

[yylee]

Originally posted by AdrianUK
Links to Articles

http://www.hawkinscheung.com/



thanks Adrian!

[Ernie]

here is something ironic
i met him during the LA seminars held at ....... you guessed it Hawkins school ha ha

paul you didn't make to those seminars did you

it was 2 days of official seminars but david was down for like a week and held a few more just to be cool

no charge just pure love of sharing

as i said left a mighty big impression on a young wing chun mind ;)

[PaulH]

No, I didn't make it to that LA Seminar. Speaking of lasting impression, I do remembered that DP offer to meet me at the LA airport while in transit to the Chicago Seminar? Unfortunately the 9/11 event made that impossible. As you say, you can't mistake the man's passion for VT and its people. =)

[Ernie]

dude
that's right he had a few hours lay over and we were supposed to smack each other around in the airport

again he is a down a$$ dude :)