WSL Knives video

[Nick Forrer]

Here is a video (poor quality) of WSL doing the knives with my teacher (http://www.wongvingtsun.co.uk/video.htm)

[Frank Exchange]

Ouch, that is almost unwatchable. The video quality, I mean. :)

[Nick Forrer]

Hi James

Tell Clive that!:D

See you saturday?

[stuartm]

Shame it wasnt better quality, but still really nice to see anyway when clips of Wing Sifu are so rare. I could just about make out a Fak Doe !!

Thanks for posting Nick.

Stu

[burnsypoo]

thnx for putting up the video, it's great to see rare footage like that. I hope it inspires others to do the same so we can all share in the past generation.

[Nick Forrer]

your welcome- thank my teacher if you like:)

[Vajramusti]

Nick-
I would very much like to look at the video.
But I have had problems when I download to look at some things.
My anti virus program warned me that they are not sure about the video and its source. Any suggestions? Any way to send ita s as a virus scanned item pf some sort?. Sorry- I am neither high or low tech when it comes to PC-s. Maybe Garry Short can help?

Joy Chaudhuri

[Matrix]

Originally posted by Vajramusti
My anti virus program warned me that they are not sure about the video and its source. Any suggestions?

Joy,

Your anti-virus software is just warning you that "it's not sure" because it's an EXE file. In this case it's just a self-extracting ZIP file of the video, but your software has no way of knowing this for sure.

You should be able to download it anyway. Can't you just ignore the warning? BTW, this is not normally recommended, but in the case I'm sure the file is good.

Bill

[Vajramusti]

Matrix
Thx- I will try.
Joy

[Vajramusti]

Matrix- Thanks much for the encouragement.. It was worth the long wait and the anti virus system warnings.
Thanks also to Nick and his sifu for sharing it.
It IMO is very watchable given its age and circumstances.. I recognized the motions and very much
enjoyed seeing Wong Shon Leung moving with the knives.

One of my great pleasures was rolling with him twice during his first US visit.

[Matrix]

Joy,

I'm pleased that you were able to get the file downloaded and even more pleased that you enjoyed it.

And of course, thanks to Nick and his sifu for sharing the footage. It's always interesting to get a glimpse into the past.

Regards,
Bill

[John D]

The clip is a bit hard to see but better than nothing.

IMO, WSL's DO skills and knowledge was (is) among the best. He practiced the DO with a special zeal and was YM's best blade man. People interested in learning the YM's DO system as taught to WSL should visit with one of WSL's elder students....of which Yeun Yim Keung (IMO) in Hong Kong is the best and most knowledgeable. Since WSL passing, Yeun has spent a lot of time and money traveling around to show the other WSL old timers (Yeun's classmates) the base+12 sections of BJD system. I give Yeun a lot of credit for the effort he has given to share is knowledge with others.

Yeun's health is a bit frail after suffering a heart attack but he is and honest man and is willing to pass on the BJD to a few more people. By now, there is without a doubt many more of WSL followers who are very competent with the blades.

On a side note - In 1980, I did compare part of the eight section Wong Chok BJD method that I learned earlier against the WSL method (both Wong Chock and Wong Shun Leung were present). After a night long of breathing cigarettes smoke and foul HK air, Wong Chock finally admitted that Wong Shun Leung's methods and sections were more comprehensive and complete.

To make a long story short. The elders (WSL & WC) concluded that the blade system took a long time to learn - as long as or longer than learning the open hand WC system. The late YM taught each of them individually but later wanted to simplify the blade system. Hence, Wong Chok, although well liked by YM learned a simplfied eight section version of the blades.

. . . . just sharing - - - - - - - -

[Vajramusti]

Hi John D---
Some folks who learned the WSL version of the form from him
or Yeun now claim that they learned the whole form from Ip man.

Apart from WSL there are very very few people alive who were taught an entire bjd form by Ip man himself. Among other factors involved is what you mentioned- the sheer time it takes to develop the details of all the sequences. Apart from his choice re who he wanted to teach.Even the words bjd isa
Ip man trademark.

The last VTAA convention video (pre Tong opening) demo of the knives was IMO a disaster.

How did your Seattle bjd seminar go?

Cheers, Joy

[Nick Forrer]

Hi everyone

Over 300 people have watched this now so I hope those 300 people all enjoyed some (albeit poor quality) footage of WSL in action with the knives

Thanks for all the positive feedback- I have passed it on to my teacher and told him to have a look at this thread:)

John D- thanks for the interesting info- hopefully some other WSL students possibly lurking (Rolf C and Dave P?) may have something else to contribute

Its good to share stuff and I think its a shame (although understandable) that people keep their cards close to their chest when it comes to stuff like this

Oh well- have a good weekend everyone:)

[Vajramusti]

Nick-
I am not surprised by the number of "hits" on the video link.
I have no complaint on the video quality- understandable.

I got a sense of his fak do- he even showed an usage.
You could see the footwork adjustment for the knives.
A good sense of the jam do, gan do stepping and turning
abd the elbow adjustment for the knives.

Thanks to you your sifu, and Matrix for his advice on opening..

Joy

[azwingchun]

This may sound like a real silly question, but how do I open the file? I get to the part that says save or open, I then open it, then I get a zip window that ask me if I want to unzip it. After I unzip it, nothing happens?!?!?!?!?!

Any suggestions?!?!?!? They would be highly appreciated. ;)

[Matrix]

John,

The EXE file should extract another file by the same name with another extension. In this case, it's KNIVES.WMV.

Double-click on, or Open, that file and it should play in the Windows media player.

Bill

[azwingchun]

I appreciate the help, but I must be doing something wrong?!?!? When I hit unzip the only thing that happens is a window pops up and says '1 file succesfully unzipped', and it has an 'ok' button. I hit the ok button and nothing happens.

I will try it a few more time, though computer tinkering isn't my strongest quality. LOL!!!!! ;)

[Matrix]

When you run the UNZIP, it should indicate where the file is being extracted to. You can just do a search for KNIVES.WMV on your computer to find. I have a feeling that you've extracted it already.

Then open the .WMV file, you don't need the EXE file anymore....

Bill

[azwingchun]

Thanks, I am searching now. ;)

[John D]

Hello Joy & Friends,

It is not easy to share these days without somebody being offended....everybody has a face to save.

In 1980, I was told by late Wong Chok to abandon his eight section BJD that he learned and do my best to learn WSL's sections.

Sadly, by this date (May 1980), Wong Chok had already shown a number of Yip Man's other students. But Wong Chok was already suffering from terminal liver cancer and did not have the time to learn WSL's knowledge. Hence Wong Chok had no time to correct his other gung-fu brothers/friends that he had shared with in the previous years.

The story told to me (by WSL and Yeun) was that only Yip Po Ching and WSL were shown the entire system with Ho Kam Ming knowing a good amount. Yip Po Ching died early and Yip Man made the younger WSL the keeper of the blade system.

Back to my 1980 month long stay in HK - after a night of discussion between Wong Chok and WSL my mind was full of corrections. Again too many new methods and corrections.
A few days later, I met Yeun Yim Keung, WSL's long time student and we became friends. He apparently heard about the WSL and Wong Chok discussion and told me not to get disheartened. The weapons secrets should have been shared by YM but were instead kept to a few. With Yeun's first words in HK and his visit to my city the following year I started learning the new blade system.

Despite Yeun's guidance, all the new blade techniques were too much for me and I got overwhelmed. I had a difficult time unraveling all of Wong Chok's methods - much of which I really liked. Things got messy and I went ahead on my own to try to include both versions but this only made things worse! A big mess....! Finally 16 years later (in 1996), I decided that I needed to clean house and completely adopt the WSL methods. This required many more trips to HK and thousands of dollars, but I have no regrets- none. Again, I am grateful to Yeun, who helped me reshape myself over the next four years.

Here is a very "brief/quick" outline of WSL curriculum:

Two person short touch drills (you need a partner or two)
Base+12 sections - stepped blade maneuvers
Partnered drills from each section


Here is a very "brief/quick" outline of WSL curriculum:

Two person short touch drills (you need a partner ot two)
Base+12 sections - stepped blade manuevers
Partnered drills from each section

Base:
Turning the body (feet together)
Short slant kick
Splitting the blades
Tse - Tan - Jum & Short chops (Cham)
>>>>many....many...many weeks of of short stepping and blade touching drills<<<<<<

Section 1:
Gaun do & Lan Kwan Do

Section 2:
Gaun Do - Jum Do - Tse Do (vertical blade stab) - Cham Do

Section 3:
Gaun Do - Jum Do - Tse Do (horizontal blade stab/deflect) - Naang Cham Do (cut from below)

Section 4:
Bong Do

Section 5:
Ding Do /// Yat Jee Do

Section 6:
Biu Do ///jong Do

Section 7:
Jut-Tse Do

Section 8:
Nong Cham Do /// Heung Do

Section 9:
Ding Kwan Do

Section 10:
Tse-Jut-Tan Do

Section 11:
Gwun Do - Guan Do

Section 12:
Mun Do


Interested WC instructors should make contact with WSL's senior students who are now teaching on their own and explore the possibility of learning the blade system. I believe Gary Lam now lives in LA and there is another WSL follower in San Diego (forgot the name). Peterson lives in Austrailia and others live in England, and Germany. I here good things about all of them. . . .

Cheers to all,
JD


PS. Joy - I will be in Seattle in either March or July - Not sure yet. Wong Long Ching will be in LA in July 2005 and I will visit with him.

[Vajramusti]

The story told to me (by WSL and Yeun) was that only Yip Po Ching and WSL were shown the entire system with Ho Kam Ming knowing a good amount. Yip Po Ching died early and Yip Man made the younger WSL the keeper of the blade system.(John D)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

John-

Not quite the way I heard.But at the end of the day- does not matter. WSL and HKM learned the knives privately and separately.
I have nothing but respect for both and they respected each other. WSL is gone and HKM is giving his last retirement seminar in Tucson August 21,and 22.

[Ernie]

John D


nice to share , very cool
i study with gary and your right there are differences
so much so that gary teaches the knives in two forms
one basic yip man
and wong's version
wong's expression of the blades is much more dynamic and alive
were yip's version is more fixed and structured

i'll run your list by gary and see what he has to say

again cool thing man ;)

[Patrick Gordon]

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

WSL is gone and HKM is giving his last retirement seminar in Tucson August 21,and 22. [/B][/QUOTE]

Hey Joy,

Don't forget about in Ottawa, the week before ;-)

patrick Gordon.

[John D]

Is HKM planning to do any DO work for his last seminar? I might have to find an excuse to sneak out of work and fly 3000 miles........

[Vajramusti]

John D.:

Master Ho's do form is complete and impressive and also inherited from extensive private lessons with Ip Man. And he knows the applications as well.

I have done 3000 plus many times in the pursuit of the
incredible yim wing chun.

The seminar is Master Ho's summing up of almost half a century of wing chun. Very likely that at some point in the seminar he will
have a student of his some show bjd work... with its very mobile footwork.It's Master Ho's agenda---so the the flow of the details is upto him.

There wont be any last minute door registration. See
<www.fongswingchun.com> for more info.

Patrick- thanks for reminding folks about the Ottawa gathering as well.

Joy Chaudhuri

[Kikko]

I hope you will enjoy this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sB79TzHZKT0

[Liddel]

My Master and Wong Sifu were good friends back in the day. Sifu mentioned on many occasions that he and Sifu Wong would wait at a tea house for Gm Ip to arrive and WSL more often than not would have his Blades tucked into his belt around his waist because of the rivalry between Kung Fu schools...

How times have changed huh...LOL
:D

[lawrenceofidaho]

I hope you will enjoy this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sB79TzHZKT0
Regardless of how "authentic" that form may be, could anyone actually improve their fighting skills in any way whatsoever by practicing like that?

[Mr Punch]

I hope you will enjoy this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sB79TzHZKT0Yup, sure did!

+ red wig = Napoleon Dynamite!

:D

[YongChun]

Regardless of how "authentic" that form may be, could anyone actually improve their fighting skills in any way whatsoever by practicing like that?

After I learned some Escrima stick and knife fighting from various people (Remy Presas, Bobby Taboada, Dom Lopez etc.) and looked at all the tapes I could get my hands on of famous Filipino masters doing their stuff then I thought there was definitely something wrong with the Wing Chun Bat Jam Do training that people do.

So at least I would say that anything commercially available for Wing Chun knife techniques doesn't do the job. Perhaps in the past, people were able to use it.

I think doing the form slowly is step one. Then there is drilling that with a partner in various ways. Some ways include knife against knife, knife against sword and knife against spear and pole.

Then get some protection on your hands and head and spar with these things at random. The spear against the knife is a great match. Knife against knife is very fast, maybe a little messy and both sides usually get cut.

I think these days there is more interest in mixed martial arts skills so the weapons are going by the wayside in favor of grappling skills. The weapons can occupy all of your training time if you want to be good. But because of the gun, why bother or else you will look like that guy in Raiders of the Lost Arc who was swing his sword around.

Some clubs do the weapons as a bit of a muscle workout. But probably a good weight training program is better.

Robert Chu told me a long time ago that Hawkins Cheung is pretty good with the knives. So maybe there are a few people around who can do it. If Wong Shun Leung was able to beat a fencer with the knives then maybe he wasn't too bad.
With a different fencer maybe he would have had different results.

Back in the 80's we used to fight Escrima stick vs Wing Chun Butterfly knife. I got whacked real good in the head causing blood to drip down my face from a padded Escrima stick wielded by one of Ancion Bacon's students or grand students. My footwork wasn't fast enough. But another guy in the club who was also a fencing teacher matched the Escrima stick pretty good using the Bat Jam Do and fencing footwork skills. The two killed each other off simultaneously. They went full speed at each other.

For the art of it all I think knife against spear is great practice. It's the classical battle of long against short. There may be some transfer of skills from this into the hand against kicking realm of fighting.

Yesterday I just watched the fighting sequence at the end of the movie Rob Roy MacGregor, it was very well done and more realistic looking than most choreographies. Of course I don't know what realistic looking means since I have never watched any real duels. Probably it is more realistic than all the Alexander FuSheng movies but then I did see some impressive Hung style from a traveling Hung style family back in the early 70's. The guys name was Frank Lam but I've not seen any mention of him on the net.

I think the Bat Jam Do form doesn't matter. It's how you train the stuff. This goes for the empty hand stuff as well. The forms I saw has mostly the most basic methods of cutting and poking which are a subset of Southern knife usage anyway (in my opinion).

We used to train the Wing Chun knife against the wooden Japanese Boken (sword). I thought I was OK until I tried against someone who actually knew how to use the Japanese sword. That was a great eye opener getting cut everywhere. Training against people who know what they are doing is always a great experience which is totally different from training with people who pretend to know what they are doing. E.g. training against your classmates kicks vs training against a real 7th degree TaeoKwondo guy, or wrestling against club members vs wrestling against a club that only does this. Of course this is all obvious.

Ray

[lawrenceofidaho]

Ray,

I have seen how you move with the knives in application, and IMO, it is good & realistic technique.

To say that you've been bested & bled, -by a skilled martial artist who specializes in weapons, is no cause for embarassment.

-L

[lawrenceofidaho]

Yesterday I just watched the fighting sequence at the end of the movie Rob Roy MacGregor, it was very well done and more realistic looking than most choreographies.
Tim Roth's sword work was amazing in that film.

He obviously trained very hard for those scenes.......

[CFT]

Ray, nice to see you posting again. Always a nice read. Would like to hear more stories about your club's training with 6.5 point spear, and any real exchanges with other practitioners.

I've only just started to learn my club's basic knife form so I've not even played with drills, let alone real application.

[YongChun]

Hi Chee,

The 6 1/2 point spear. Well here is something about that.

I learned this in 1982 from Dr. G.K. Khoe who is a student of Wang Kiu in Holland. Wang Kiu is in his 80's I think and still is teaching a little.

We first learned a 6 1/2 point spear form which consisted of 26 or 27 movements. Our knife form had 82 movements and the magic total of the two is about 108 movements. I don't know if this is by design or accident nor do I know if this was Wang Kiu's design or came from Yip Man? Anyway those are just academic questions for which there are no answers but I used to be interested in that. Wang Kiu didn't give any answers to these kinds of questions.

After we learned the spear , we did a two people exercise equivalent to single sticking hands with the spear. Two people face each other, one starts with a poke the other defends with the Tan etc. and a few movements later we repeat the whole thing again. This exercise has the basic Tan, Bong, Fook, Gan for defense and the Bill/Biu/Poke high and low for attack. After that we did one , two, three step kind of sparring drills with the spear or pole. E.g. one guy pokes to one of the four quadrants and your partner deflects with something and counterattacks. This could go on for a few movements.

After that we put some protection on the end of the spear and did random frees style sparring. We found it might be a good idea to have lead hand protection because in fast exchanges the lead hand tends to get whacked making for some sore fingers. We were told that the spear just makes one sound. So there is one engagement and after that someone gets hit. There was not the multiple clashing sounds like in the movies where it takes ten hits to take someone out.

One of the female students who did this sort of thing went to Japan in the 1980's and joined an all female Naginata club. A Naginata is a long pole with a narrow blade on the end of it. She sparred a bit with the blackbelts at that club and found her Wing Chun spear techniques could match their techniques very well.

Later I wondered why we used a spear instead of a long pole like everyone else does in the Wing Chun world. Well I didn't get an answer to that. I was told that the spear was more practical for fighting. I do think the long pole has many advantages from the point of view of physical development like muscle training. Also it is the traditional Wing Chun weapon. The long pole seems to have some roots from the Red boat people. So now I like to use both the spear and the long pole.

I learned Hung style before and feel that the Wing Chun spear technique I learned is a small subset of the Southern spear techniques. The subset applies to fighting a single skilled opponent as opposed to fighting multiple opponents which require a lot more techniques esepecially of the circular kind. When we fought against some people using the double ended pole then we found the single end one had the advantage because it was longer so as long as your facing and center pointing was good, you could keep them at bay.

We use the long pole to also help to develop punching power. You grab the pole at the thick end with two hands close together and then snap the pole down and up (try with and without the snap) and then repeat this as many time as you can. We hade some female students and also some male students who couldn't even do one because they didn't have the wrist strength to hold the pole parallel to the floor. One lady after a few weeks managed a single one. Then a week or two later did about 10 and two or three months later did 60 of those. She was a small 5' 2" high school student.

One year Wong Shun Leung and Tsui Shan Ting visited here. At that time one of the members by the name of Yvette Wong had a long debate with Wong Shun Leung about the pole vs the spear. She argued that she could maneuver the spear faster and hence it was the superior weapon (for her). He argued that since the pole was heavier, he could easily deflect the spear out of the way and win that way. What we found good was that he didn't mind these kind of debates at all. Other teachers we came across tended to get angry if we asked questions or tried to debate about some point. We also debated about the position of his Wu sau in the Lap sau and punch technique. At a seminar we asked him about defending against the hooking punch. So he picked the largest guy and asked him to throw a hook. He either wasn't ready or was surprised by the guys power because the hook rocked him a bit. So he asked the guy to do it again and this time his defense was very solid. He used the inside Bill sau because it was a wide hook.

Although I learned a lot more movements with the spear and pole from Hung style, I find that I can use what I learned in Wing Chun better but I like the Hung style forms better (for looks and exercise).

Training the knife against spear is a pretty good exercise in order to understand the good points and bad points of each weapon. For us we had to figure out a lot by trial and error because there aren't too many stick and butterfly masters around our part of the world.

My hung style teacher said that one of his masters specialize in the spear and Butterfly knife. That's all he did. One year when he was working up North (Northern Canada) a large group of young people were smashing the town store windows and ste various stores on fire. So this master came out with a bamboo pole and of those people, he put 16 into the hospital with none seriously hurt. He was credited with saving the town. He eventually died at age 94.

I spoke with Kenneth Chung about weapons once. He said weapons forms are not a big deal because they are a dime a dozen in China. There are hundreds of Wu Shu styles and they all have their weapons forms and training procedures. So Ken tended to used the weapons as just a way to enhance his empty hand skills. He said these days there is no practical use for the weapons. He said if you have a club that doesn't mean I need to fight you also with a club. I can fight with a one level up weapon which os what the police do. Once policeman told me that if you fight with your fist then he can use a club. If you fight with a club, then he can use a gun. If you fight with a gun then he can bring in a whole army of police to take you out. So that's the one level up approach.

Ray

[CFT]

Super write up Ray. It deserves a thread of its own. We get a decent amount of material written about the knives, and how it relates to Filipino systems because people have a lot of exposure to that. I find that there is very little written about pole training, benefits, real encounters, etc.

Your pole power development exercises sound similar to ours. Here is what we do, hope it comes across clearly:

Take up the basic YJKYM stance. Pole is in line with the centreline, place tip of pole on ground and grasp the thick end of the pole with right hand, place left hand in front of right, then move right in front of left. So basically holding the pole away from you, tip down, right hand in front of left with a bit of the thick end sticking out.

Next raise the tip of the pole up until about chest/throat height, locking your arms out in front of you. So if you look side on: your shoulders down to your hands, hands up to tip of the pole forms a "V" shape.

Now the hard bit, keeping your elbows down, raise your hands up so that the tip stays roughly stationary and the pole horizontal. Your hands will have to twist around the pole to allow this action. Do this bit quick so you can return to the "hands down" position.

Repeat as many times as you can. You can also work the "other side of the body" by having the left hand in front of the right.

When I first started I could do 2, then after about a week 5. After 2 weeks I could do 10. I'm up to 15-18 now. You can try it with a 6ft pole to begin with to get used to the action, or even a broom (brush end is the tip).