Hidden Apps in a Modern World

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

The other thread closed so I didn't get a chance to ask if PL had a hidden app for the LOG moves.

Anyhow, to continue on with the subject of this thread I like to know what reasons there are for maintaining the secrecy around technique applications. I understand the reasons in the past but does it really need to continue?

All I can think of is monetary concerns and possibly tradition. Like "I have the secret apps, give me money and I'll show you".

I also believe that the moves should be done in a form just like you would do them on an opponent. I have a problem when someone show a move from a form and then the app and it looks different. I can understand slight variation to fit different body sizes and situations but many are a little too far off in my opinion.

How far can you modify a move and have it still be the same move?

[Judge Pen]

How can you modify a move from a form into an app and it still be the same move? I can think of two reasons right off hand: 1. The form is a snapshot in time on how that move would have worked agaisnt the imaginary opponent developed for standarizing the form. All the contingent variables will change the application as done by real people against resisting opponents; and 2. the forms were traditional and because of this the applications were hidden, right? If the form is relatively unchanged, then the apps may not be as apparent even if your teacher has no qualms teachign the apps as they understand them from a form.

Just some quick thoughts. The form is a suggestion for a technique that will lead you down a path of more applications and combinations.

[yu shan]

Regarding the rolling backfist out of Little Open Gate, I was just pulling your leg. I don`t like it and don`t use it. As for some hidden app in this by our group, let`s show Master Shr and get his opinion. In the mean time, ask MC what he thinks, and then we can compare. Frankly sir, it would be cool to touch hands and see how you would pull this rolling backfist off.

You say you understand maintaining the secrecy of teaching applications in the past, are you talking about WL? The monetary concerns definitely sound WL. Again, Pong Lai is an application oriented system. Master Shr Zhengzhong teaches you the techniques out of your form or even the exercises for that matter. I have seen variations to a single application. I really suggest that you compile your questions (like I`m doing) and bring to his seminar in Tampa.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

C'mon man, quite turning everything into a "Wah Lum is bad, Pong Lai is good" arguement.

I'm talking about the history of Chinese martial arts and the reasons for secrecy (Cultural Revolution for one).

And here's how I would pull this rolling backfist off (no big touching of hands necessary to see application):

You throw a punch

I circle my hands (fists closed) up and to the right deflecting your punch

Follow through with double punch or whatever attack I feel fits the situation

Why try to make rocket science out of it? Are you saying I stink so bad I can't block a simple punch?

[-N-]

Originally posted by Hua Lin Laoshi Anyhow, to continue on with the subject of this thread I like to know what reasons there are for maintaining the secrecy around technique applications. I understand the reasons in the past but does it really need to continue?
Sometimes a teacher shows just the basic application and waits until the student is ready to understand before showing additional advanced or "secret" details.

Sometimes the secret is not a secret at all. The teacher may have been showing it to the student all along, but the student didn't recognize it.

Also, traditional teaching is less talking, more doing. The teacher may be beating it into the students head, so to speak, rather than explaining verbally. These hard won lessons can be the more valuable ones that the student remembers when he finally understands.

If the teacher just runs down the list with verbal explanations of the "secrets", some students can become so enamored with the advanced knowledge that they spend more time talking and theorizing rather than practicing.


Originally posted by Hua Lin Laoshi
I also believe that the moves should be done in a form just like you would do them on an opponent. I have a problem when someone show a move from a form and then the app and it looks different. I can understand slight variation to fit different body sizes and situations but many are a little too far off in my opinion.
Forms try to be a lot of things... a record of specific techniques and combinations... an explanation of the system's theories and strategies... a training tool to develop alignment and power... etc.

Technique can be a specific representation of a theory. The theory behind the technique can be manifested in different physical forms.

As a training tool, a form may chamber a punch to develop proper alignment of forces in the preceding "secret" grab. In real life application, the execution would likely be streamlined.

Also form, as a type of record or documention, may be subject to stylized representation of information which is recognized within the context of the martial or asian culture. The stylized representation can communicate the essence of the knowledge, but the reality appears in a different form. A Chinese brush painting of a landscape is a stylized representation of the painter's experience of nature.

There can be a kind of zen thing. There's reality, and there's what we have when people try to capture or communicate that reality whether in words or forms.

N.

[18elders]

HLL,
I do have a nice technique that could be applied that you would not think of from that.

[bung bo]

HLL--why don't you like when the app is different than the form? i don't really have a problem with it. suppose you're working out in the park and someone sees your stuff and challeges you. since your apps are a bit different than the actual form, you'll have something up your sleeve. i understand about your culteral revolution reference.

[yu shan]

-N-

Nicely put, I concur.

Please keep the aerospace industry out of this :D and you could have spared me the visual on this app of yours. Ahh, won`t work unless I punch you verrryyy sloooowly. 18-Elders has a nifty move for what we are talking about. Who said I was only throwing a single punch, anyway it is a ridiculous move. Moving on now, what is your take on "the sitting indian style jumping up into double front toe kick landing in wu dip ma" out of WL 3rd form, this is always a good one to talk about. And I`m not implying that you stink sir, you have good Martial skills. If you whip out that Shotokan, I`m a dead man;)

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

Ok, I tried posting a reasonable discussion. yu shan is heading into the troll filter. I gave an example of the easiest way to apply a specific move and you insult me by claiming I'm way too slow to block an incoming punch, then change the parameters to where I'm expected to use one move succcessfully against any attack you decide to throw. You've either had too much to drink or not enough, don't know which one yet.

Judge Pen
Not asking how, just asking why.
"The form is a suggestion for a technique that will lead you down a path of more applications and combinations."
I agree although there are some who believe discovery is wrong and you should stick only with what you've been taught (handed down).
"If the form is relatively unchanged, then the apps may not be as apparent even if your teacher has no qualms teaching the apps as they understand them from a form."
Again, I agree. Question is why does the form not change to match the app considering the days of needing to hide your techniques is long gone?

-N-
You are correct but miss the point due to my poor description of my thoughts. There will always be alternative apps for moves but the moves themselves should be the same as the intended app. No need to wave your open hand above your head and claim the real app is a punch to the stomach. Extreme example, I know, but I don't have a real life example right now and that should point you in the direction I'm going.

18elders
I'd be very interested in seeing what you have for that move. When I look at apps I start with the context of the form (the moves before and after) before taking it in other directions. Considering the recent discussions I just have to ask, did someone "dream up" this app or has it been handed down? I really don't care either way.

bung bo
the reason I don't like it probably goes back to my original training in Kenpo. Moves in Kenpo are done the same whether in a form, 2-man, or fighting. Sure there are apps that are not apparent (hidden) when viewing the move. It's just that I don't believe in ingraining wrong moves into my muscle memory just to keep others from learning my secrets.
In your scenario I would question why you would be openly practicing in a public park if you are concerned someone will use your techniques against you. BTW, my point is that these days anyone can walk into a KF school (possibly the Nashville Pong Lai school) and sign up and your teacher (who is very open about teaching apps and answering questions, so I hear) will show the techniques you are wanting to hide. Doesn't make sense. It did years ago but not today.

yu shan
The moves in 3rd Form are blocks. The sitting indian style is a block, jumping up into double front toe kick again is a block, landing in wu dip ma is another block. They're all blocks. Everything is a block.

BTW, "Who said I was only throwing a single punch". I did. If you recall I was setting up a specific where the move could be used. Remeber this? "You throw a punch" or was it too many beers ago.
And if "18-Elders has a nifty move for what we are talking about" is true then the move apparently isn't the crap you claim it to be.

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by Hua Lin Laoshi

Judge Pen
Not asking how, just asking why.
"The form is a suggestion for a technique that will lead you down a path of more applications and combinations."
I agree although there are some who believe discovery is wrong and you should stick only with what you've been taught (janded down).
"If the form is relatively unchanged, then the apps may not be as apparent even if your teacher has no qualms teachign the apps as they understand them from a form."
Again, I agree. Question is why does the form not change to match the app considering the days of needing to hide your techniques is long gone?

If you only stick to what is taught, then the form shouldn't change. If you change the form it isn't traditional. If you take isolated moves out of a form and work their application repetedly against a resisting opponent it's called a drill and the traditional nature is diminished.

A form is a slice of history, but we fight for the here an now. That's why applications are different than the form.

[mantis108]

This is a great topic. I believe this applies beyond WL and PL. So if I may share some thoughts with you all.

First and foremost there are theorectical knowledge and practical knowledge of technique applications. Within practical knowledge there are street/self defense applications and sport applications. Most people don't discern these things. Adding to the problem is the delivery platforms needed to intergrate technique applications.

BTW, I also concur with -N-'s post.

It is also true that applications doesn't have to be rocket science but they are subtle sicence and exact art nontheless. Forms are intellectual property of masters among other things. As such, we need to respect all nuance of forms including understanding the original intend of the moves, techniques, structure, concepts, etc... This applies to specific drills and methodologies as well. If we want to include our own practical knowledge as part of the teaching, it would be better to state it as such.

I think Yu Shan is addressing the problem whether the proposed application has a method or drill(s) to be intergrated. More importantly, has this application been trial and tested under pressure? It doesn't needed to be an all out NHB thing but at least 2 partners trying to use the move in order to see it in real time and has a high rate of success in execution. In other words, don't think that we know, Know that we know (or not know).

I believe that's the Ponglai edge that he and other PL folks are trying to come across. Ponglai IMHO is highly drill based including 2 men forms and free sparring with techniques. It doesn't necessarily say that it is superior to other methodologies including Wah Lum but it is highly systematic in their study of a fight oriented system which in my mind is worth experiencing and promoting in today's increasingly disoriented TCMA world.

I am sure Wah Lum has its own method which I am not exposed to. So I am not going to comment further on that.

I have lots of respects for both Wah Lum and PongLai. I don't intend to take side neither. I just hope that the gap between styles would eventually disappear if we keep an open mind and appreciate the fact that each has something great to offer in this otherwise cold hard CMA world.

Mantis108

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

Judge Pen
"A form is a slice of history, but we fight for the here an now. That's why applications are different than the form."
Again, I would ask why cling to 'tradition' if it isn't applicable to realistic situations. I don't believe I've accurately made my point.

During the Cultural Revolution martial arts went underground into the Opera. Kung Fu was hidden in the Opera training and performances. Today it's above ground and there's no longer a need for it to be hidden. Why cling to the Opera ways and keep the apps hidden?

And again, the arguement against it is that you are training the wrong moves into your body. Drills are meant to ingrain the moves into muscle memory. Forms are a way of doing single person drills. As such you should be performing the form exactly how you would do the moves against a live opponent.

Tradition is fine but I'm not going to sacrifice my training just to maintain an obsolete way of training. I don't need to hide my moves therefore I do them like I would use them. Kenpo mentality.

[Xiao Tang Lang]

Without trying to sound "Politically correct" I think everyone's posts have some valid points. HLL made a point earlier that you cannot necessarily be sure of the intended application of a movement that is 400 years old. I agree with that to some point, but historically speaking, the NPM system is fairly recent as a Kung Fu system. Also the majority of mantis sets have a two person equivelant which follows the form pretty closely so you will at least have an immediate understanding of the technique within the form. Although it may be only on a basic level.

I think you should continuously strive to find alternate apps to the techniques. There is an old saying that "Everything is in the form." If that is true then you should not have to learn fighting and self defense techniques separate from your forms. If you continue to dig deep enough I think you will find that many of the chinna techniques that are taught separate from the forms are in fact contained within the forms. The more ways you can apply the same move the greater your chances of success are in combat. Instead of having to practice a particular technique against a punch and then a different technique against a grab or a kick and so on you instead use the same technique as much as possible to fit into and deal with the attack. This way you have less techniques to commit to muscle memory which will allow you to react more spontaneously with the proper technique. This is basically what a Kenpo practitioner would call a master key move. That is why I say I also agree with HLL's approach as well.

Of course it always helps to be fortunate enough to have a teacher that can help you understand this process by sharing some of the alternate applications and giving you the key to becoming a better student of motion and accelerating your growth in that area of training. IMHO.

[yu shan]

Twice you referred that I`m drinking alcohol, sorry, try green tea. You seem very bitter, I`m sorry for you. Train and have a good time in Wah Lum and the very best to you.

[BeiTangLang]

Why is there such a big deal about "hidden" apps? There are so many applications in the forms that are straight out _there_ that a student of mantis shouldn't even be looking for them untill they are well along their path. By then, some of the alternate aplications will show themselves without someone having to show you.

After you get the forms down & show an amount of profficiencey in using them is when an instructor usually shows "what else" can be done with the move, but guess what? The move is still the same....only the application has changed.

The transition from form to usage does not vary very much at all.
-N-'s post was a very good one in explaining this. Applications come with time & experience with a martial art.

Oh, as a last note, if the move is greatly different in application that the form shows, there is a good chance that either you are being shown a wrong application, the form was made up with asthetics in mind over application, or the form learned was just plain wrong to begin with.

Best wishes to all,
~BTL

[mantisben]

Originally posted by Hua Lin Laoshi
...Question is why does the form not change to match the app considering the days of needing to hide your techniques is long gone?

I'll try to answer this question...

If a technique in a form can be applied effectively 3 different ways, with slight modification to applying the technique, how would you do the form? How would you TEACH the form? Would you teach 3 different forms so the technique "matches the app"? Would different forms need to be developed, just so the 3 different ways of applying a technique in a form "match the app"?

In my experience, and opinion, the form Bung Bo (7* Mantis) has MANY applications for the different techniques within this form. Someone might have to split this form into 5 or 6 forms (maybe more) to make all of the applications to the techniques "match the app". To me, it seems easier to teach 1 form (BTW, I don't teach), and instruct a student on the multiple applications of a technique, than to teach multiple forms, so the techniques in the form "match the app".

In fact, people HAVE changed the forms. That is why there are soo many different versions of Bung Bo. That is why it looks different from one branch of Mantis to another, even from one lineage to another.

[-N-]

Originally posted by Hua Lin Laoshi
No need to wave your open hand above your head and claim the real app is a punch to the stomach. Extreme example, I know, but I don't have a real life example right now and that should point you in the direction I'm going.
Very true. I do understand your point. I've seen some very contrived explanations of applications that I disagreed with.

As far as WL/PL stuff... I don't get into all that. I wrote mostly from a generic perspective.

take care,
N.

[-N-]

Originally posted by BeiTangLang
Why is there such a big deal about "hidden" apps? There are so many applications in the forms that are straight out _there_ that a student of mantis shouldn't even be looking for them untill they are well along their path.
Sounds good to me! :)

N.

[sayloc]

I dont think anyone will ever attack you in the exact same sequence as a two person form or drill.

Now what?

[BeiTangLang]

Originally posted by sayloc
I dont think anyone will ever attack you in the exact same sequence as a two person form or drill.

Now what?

LOL!

You find a school that really teaches kung fu & go there.

[18elders]

the move yu is talking about comes from a backfist, it is not your 3 rolling ones in LOG.
I agree with yu about the punch, you will not have the time to do your roll as you described it, you would be much better off just doing gwa with a punch at the same time, why roll the fists into the block, just go right into it(gwa)., your also committing both your fists to that block, like i said, i would be punching the same time i was blocking with the other hand.

For the hidden techniques, i think they are the more advanced and difficult moves. Teachers may not show people for a long time until they feel that student has the ability and understanding of the principles to properly execute them.
I also feel that there are many sifus that don't know it, their teacher may have not even known himself.
I think there are many more schools that are BS than there are that are real CMA.

I agree with Yushan, ask master chan about it, when does he teach someone indepth application and theory?
Your right, the times our different, unfortunately many schools are just a health club instead of teaching real CMA.
Most people can't put in the commitment to train so they are never taught the more advanced stuff.

BR has been with MC a long time, do you think he has taught him?

The good thing is you can ask Master Shr whatever you like and he will explain and show you so if anyone is coming to his seminar i would take advantage of it and ask all the questions you can.

[sayloc]

What if I am attacked on the way to that school?

What I make it to that school train for one year and am attacked with a technique that was not included in one of my two man forms, drill or app that my teacher did not teach me?

[BeiTangLang]

Originally posted by sayloc
What if I am attacked on the way to that school?

What I make it to that school train for one year and am attacked with a technique that was not included in one of my two man forms, drill or app that my teacher did not teach me?

What if a secret ninja society marks you for death & kills you in your sleep? What if, what if,....you will what if yourself to death.
If you do not trust your training, go somewhere that you do trust.

[sayloc]

Sorry Bei.

You bit on my first post so fast I just had to see if you would go for it again.

Now, on the serious side. Do any of your systems (Traditional CMA Systems) have applications for the most common street attacks (Punch, kick,Headlocks, front lapel grabs and the such) built into the traditional forms and two person drills?

Is there an idea in the system to prepare the student to be able to defend themselves against these common attacks in 2,4 or 6 months using the forms and drills? Or do they have to wait one year and six months to learn a defense for a rear choke?


Do these systems teach self defense techniques in the same way the Korean and Japenese systems do? If so, is this an old idea passed down by the masters or somthing new?

I know......I know, There are a lot of different answers and they are probably on another post.

Sorry in advance

[yu shan]

BTL, about the hidden apps, you are so correct. Geez, these Mantis forms are loaded with content, I`m lucky to just get down what is shared with me. As for any secret material, I`m sure yours truly is not included in on that ticket. I`ll leave all that up to my Shifu and my Uncle`s. I`m perfectly happy learning the mucho techniques out of my forms, exercises and drills and perfecting this material to excellence.

18, I did mean the three rolling backfists, maybe we have a little mix-up here. HLL blew me off on the 3rd form app question, but then again I was accused of drinking on the job. And 18-Elders, I totally agree, some if not alot are not taught the applications. It is apparent HLL is fanatical about his style and God Bless him. If he is happy then so be it. He does have a problem with me, this is apparent. What should I do about this? I`d rather be Gongfu brothers who share, rather than being enemies. I hated leaving Wah Lum and everything, I lost friends. But then again, I`ve gained some friends. Just wanted to better myself. I gave WL 11 years, it was time to move on. Oh boy, better get back to subject.

Sayloc, I like your humor.

[mantisben]

Originally posted by shanghai_kid
How much training does a boxer put in before they become a professional fighter? I'd say between 7-10 years of hours in the gym every week - training strength, footwork, balance, techniques, cross training with weights etc. Like a full time athlete. AND - only a hand full of those suceed in become champions who stand out.
Many amateur boxers are great street-fighters. There are just as much - if not more - people who go to a boxing gym to just train to keep in shape and know how to throw hands. They train to defend themselves in a real blow-for-blow situations. Just because they didn't go pro, or hold titles or belts, doesn't mean they can't throw knuckle sandwiches.

I know of M-A-N-Y people who trained in boxing, who never went pro, that will knock a martial artist out within the first round. The first round being the first clash of hands.

At least, these are the boxers who trained in the gyms of Brooklyn, Manhattan, and the Bronx, in New York City, USA. Not to mention the Boxing clubs in Philadelphia, and Upstate New York. The list goes on...

[mantiskilla]

HLL,
"also believe that the moves should be done in a form just like you would do them on an opponent. I have a problem when someone show a move from a form and then the app and it looks different. I can understand slight variation to fit different body sizes and situations but many are a little too far off in my opinion."


does this mean that when you punch, you leave one hand/fist on your hip? just like in the form? Please say yes!!!:)
________
Kitchen Measures (http://kitchenmeasures.com/)

[18elders]

I think if you go hand to hand with a boxer and you know he is a boxer he will have the upper hand in a way but you have to use your head. He is not used to being kicked, swept etc, don't play his game. We have had some boxers come train with us, they didn't do too well against an experienced mantis person.

[sayloc]

I will make this question a little more clear. Do any of you have a time line for preparing a new student to defend themselves using the mantis applications. I have read a lot about the "experienced mantis fighter". I know it differs from person to person, but does that take 2, 3 or 4 years? Would a new mantis student be better off to study boxing or Muay Thai along with mantis untill they become an experienced fighter?

I try to expose them to the common attacks and defense using apps from the forms or drills within the first few months whether they have learned it in a form or not. They will not be great but at least I know they have been introduced to the idea of being grabbed with a side head lcok. (this was a general statment so try not to pick me apart to much)

Yushan,

I agree, jumping up double toe kick, land in woo dip and punch does not have much fighting app. I think that you will agree that strength and flexibility play a big part in becoming a good fighter.
Do you think it is ok to include these type of movements in the fighting forms for student development as long as the studnt understands the reason for the technique and it doesnt become an empty wushu form?

It is a shame people have to leave a system after 11years for another. I would like to think a person could learn from more than one teacher after they have become an instructor themselves.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

A few of you touched on the point of my rant. Still, it's been a good discussion.

BTL nailed it with this "Oh, as a last note, if the move is greatly different in application that the form shows"

I'm not concerned with hidden apps as much as not seeing the apps because the move is done incorrectly in an attempt to hide it's usage. I'll have to dig through some old magazines. There's usually 1 or 2 apps sequences that don't match the form move. I've seen this with Tai Chi quite a bit.

18elders
Just to set the record straight I don't think the LOG rolling backfists would be my first choice reaction to the punch. Yu asked for an app for the move and I gave a few. You don't like it and wouldn't use it then fine. I still don't see how it's any slower raising the arms to deflect than it is to raise the arms (or 1 arm) to block. I have a preference for deflecting rather than Karate style hard blocking. That's one of the things that caused me to switch to Kung Fu. Guess there was a misunderstanding when I asked if PL had a better use for it and you said you had one.

shanghai_kid
"I can can only speak for our school. All the moves in the forms are exactly as they are for fighting."
Right on the money. The moves in the forms should be done the same as fighting in my opinion.

mantiskilla
"does this mean that when you punch, you leave one hand/fist on your hip? just like in the form?"
You also nailed it but it was backwards. You're trying to force the app to match an incorrect form rather than modifying the form to match it's usage. Maybe you can answer the question implicit in your comment. Why do you chamber the fist in the form if you don't do it when using the move for fighting? (I do understand the usage of the pulled back fist)

BTW, my fighting stance is a really wide and low Sei Ping Ma with both fists chambered. If that doesn't work I rise up into a Crane stance like Karate Kid. :D :D :D :D :D :D

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by Hua Lin Laoshi

During the Cultural Revolution martial arts went underground into the Opera. Kung Fu was hidden in the Opera training and performances. Today it's above ground and there's no longer a need for it to be hidden. Why cling to the Opera ways and keep the apps hidden?

Not ALL kung fu went underground during the CR. Some lineages come through other countries where masters left prior to or at the onset of the CR. Even in those lineages, forms still have hidden applications. My understanding (which is minimal at best) is that some techniques were traditionally not taught or explained until after students reached more advanced levels. Sometimes it's because the student needs a core of fundmental knowledge before s/he can grasp a more advanced technique. Sometimes it may be due to an attitude that these apps should only be taught to the most worthy students. That seems to be changing, but you will still find some teachers and styles with this attitude.

HLL while we were in Atlanta we saw Master Dino teaching applications out of a basic Hung Sing CLF set. His applications were not exactly the same move as the form. Sometimes he would add a step in the footwork or even a direction of the strike. One thing was for certain: his applications still came from the form and were consistent with the principles of CLF. I think that's the way applications are ment to be taught from forms.

[18elders]

for the forms to be same as application,
i see many people doing forms and by their moves you can tell they don't know the application or whay they are doing.

Little mantis- in the beginning, after the first straight punch, then grab, arm lock, why does everyone then grab behind them like they are picking up a garbage bag and throwing it?
Should be another grab, arm lock infront of you(they got out of the first one and punched again.)

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

18elders
I'm going off on a tangent on my own thread but from your last comment a question occured to me. I mean this in all honesty and friendship.

"i would be punching the same time i was blocking with the other hand."

If speed and efficiency are priorities why use Gou Lou Tsai. Basically you are blocking with one hand, then grabbing with your other hand, then hitting with the first hand. Very common in Mantis but from a 'simultaneous defend and attack' perspective an awful waste of movement.

I'm real sure I can do a double Gwa Choy in less time than that. Gou Lou Tsai is 3 motions, double Gwa Choy - Cerng Chung Choy is 2 motions, and your example is 1 motion. How can a 3 motion move work when a 2 motion move is too slow to work? Not trying to stir things up, just pointing out inconsistencies.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

Judge Pen
Originally, I believe, things were hidden because you didn't want your enemies to know your techniques, giving you the edge. Styles were kept within the family and practiced secretly. The story goes that Japanese arts that originated from China are watered down, incorrect or just superficial representations due to the fact that the Chinese didn't trust them enough to show them the real stuff. Even in the early days of KF in this country it was held back from westerners and training was done in secret. Those days are over. Why perpetuate the secrecy?

18elders
I agree 100% and as you can guess I see it all the time. I don't know where that Little Mantis error came from but I've been trying to correct it. Not all schools do it the way you describe. BTW, the second grab isn't actually in front. It's slightly to the left as you are grabbing opponents right arm after failing the takedown with the left. At least that's how I apply it. The second grab/takedown is not a hip throw or shoulder throw or whatever it is that some students are doing.

[yu shan]

It is difficult sometimes to describe kf into words and all this typing. Things like this are better left to the three of us getting together and drilling this stuff to see what works better. Personally, I still think a double gwa choy is slower than go lou tsai. The go lou is pretty much done simultaneously. And there is the execution and intensity factors to bring in to play. That is a whole nother ball of wax. Juz my .02 worth.

Sayloc

Third form is an awesome challenging set! Agreed, flexiblity and strength mucho important. So what are you going to teach your student about this "sitting on duff, jumping up with double toe kick, landing in wudip ma and straight punching"? How practical is this? It is very good for show, horrible on knees!

[BeiTangLang]

Originally posted by sayloc
Sorry Bei.

You bit on my first post so fast I just had to see if you would go for it again.

I figured as much, or the Ninjas would have stayed at home.


Originally posted by sayloc

Now, on the serious side. Do any of your systems (Traditional CMA Systems) have applications for the most common street attacks (Punch, kick,Headlocks, front lapel grabs and the such) built into the traditional forms and two person drills?.

I really cannot speak to that for all TCMA systems. Keep in mind that this is just from what I have seen; There are techniques from the forms that can be used in those situations, however I do not believe that the forms themselves were created for "self defence" purposes.
Drills: We do have school drills with mantis principles & techniques to deal with all your listed street attacks plus some.

Mantis is a "I'll beat you to death with tour own limb" kind of MA.
I doubt people came close enough to grab of of their lappels in the days of the formation of the forms.


Originally posted by sayloc

Is there an idea in the system to prepare the student to be able to defend themselves against these common attacks in 2,4 or 6 months using the forms and drills? Or do they have to wait one year and six months to learn a defense for a rear choke?


All schools, as you know, will differ in this. Our training during the first 3 months is in fact all about self defence & begining the basics for the foundation of a MA future. Other schools,..who knows.


Originally posted by sayloc

Do these systems teach self defense techniques in the same way the Korean and Japenese systems do? If so, is this an old idea passed down by the masters or somthing new?

I could not speak to this either as Mantis is the only System that I have ever studied. Still have a ways to go.


Originally posted by sayloc

I know......I know, There are a lot of different answers and they are probably on another post.

Sorry in advance

What if I answered but no one was reading the replies??

LOL!

[Brad]

Do these systems teach self defense techniques in the same way the Korean and Japenese systems do? If so, is this an old idea passed down by the masters or somthing new?
I've been taking some TKD/Hapkido recently, and the teaching methods seem quite a bit different, imo. While both the CMA's and the KMA's I've been taking both have one step type training for some basic self defence, the Korean arts the reasons seem to be a bit different. The Korean arts generally seem to be using one step drills to give you and arsenal of ready made self defence techniques first, like if attacker A does this, you defend by doing this. While the Chinese stuff I've learned gives you just enough to teach the princible behind the technique so that you can be more creative in your applications right away. There also seem to be more two person exercises teaching different types of skill early on before sparring(like taijiquan's push hands). Does that make sense?

[-N-]

Originally posted by Hua Lin Laoshi
If speed and efficiency are priorities why use Gou Lou Tsai. Basically you are blocking with one hand, then grabbing with your other hand, then hitting with the first hand. Very common in Mantis but from a 'simultaneous defend and attack' perspective an awful waste of movement.

I'm real sure I can do a double Gwa Choy in less time than that. Gou Lou Tsai is 3 motions, double Gwa Choy - Cerng Chung Choy is 2 motions, and your example is 1 motion. How can a 3 motion move work when a 2 motion move is too slow to work? Not trying to stir things up, just pointing out inconsistencies.
(Shhhh..... the big secret advanced technique is that Gou Lou Tsai is 1 motion) :)

Now, don't even mention Fan Che...

N.

[Frogman]

:eek: Seems that the ultimate modern technique is the Ten Fingers of Death. It consist of how well you can express what a bad @$$ you are by posting here. LOL it seems like everyone is saying the same thing only with their own perspective on the execution of the said forms / apps. Truth is I live in Florida and my best tech is point and squeeze! If you find yourself in a situation that you have to fight… NO TALKING, just do it. Straight up you can BS all you want and some who does not know the difference between Lo Han and Lo Main might be impressed. I feel that a true fight is extremely serious, some one is going to get hurt and lets up it not you.

I’m done I will see you guys next year.

RibHit
fm

[sayloc]

Thanks for the reply bei and brad. I was curious how other people teach the apps and how fast they would like to get a new student to be ready to defend themselves.

One question Bei. You said "I doubt people came close enough to grab of of their lappels in the days of the formation of the forms". Does theis mean you may think that the "old ways" of the forms do not prepare a student in todays times?

Yushan

My point was i think you can add flexibility and strength training in some of the fighting sets as long as the student knows what is applicable. Kwan do is a difficult and demanding weapon, but I doubt you will ever use one in a fight. Do you think it is a waste fo time to practice the weapon even if it makes you stronger for a open hand fight that you may have? I agree the training should not ruin your kness at the same time though.

[Judge Pen]

I can actually see kwan dao training has having a practicle application. If you pick up any item with a long pole that is weighted on one end then the dynamics of swinging it are similar to a kwandao. You should be able to pick up anything and use it as a weapon, no?

[sayloc]

I did not say it was not practical at all. Why not practice a dagger form. You are much more likely to use a knife in a fight than a long pole with a weight on the end. You missed the point.

[BeiTangLang]

Originally posted by sayloc

One question Bei. You said "I doubt people came close enough to grab of of their lappels in the days of the formation of the forms". Does theis mean you may think that the "old ways" of the forms do not prepare a student in todays times?


Not at all. Just that from my understanding it may have been less likely to happen then. As always, there are always circumstances un-forseen when it comes to actual fighting.

I am confident that mantis has a way for dealing with combat then & now.

People still walk on two legs & have two arms....untill that changes, I feel the system shall remain "up-to-date" so to speak.


JP,
yup, a pole with a weight on the end could be a use for the kwan-Dao form, except that many of its techniques are based upon the blades usage.
The staff forms & even to a lesser extent, the sword forms could be used for the same thing with just a plain pole.

Its all about principles of usage.

[sayloc]

I agree 100% Bei. Mantis applications, obvious or hidden are just as effective today as it was 200 years ago. I like to hear other ideas on the issue. I may learn a thing or two!

[Gaura]

I'm confused by the wide, low, fighting stance...it seems kind of like a woman walking into central park in the middle of the night wearing a bathing suit....sure, she may not be attacked...but why leave yourself open like that? It's unnecessary, yes? It seems there is so much you can do with your legs closer together....i mean, it's not as if your leaving something like an ankle vulnerable...you get thunked in the junk, friend, and you're down, i don't care how loud you YEEE!:confused:

[mantiskilla]

HLL
"You also nailed it but it was backwards. You're trying to force the app to match an incorrect form rather than modifying the form to match it's usage. Maybe you can answer the question implicit in your comment. Why do you chamber the fist in the form if you don't do it when using the move for fighting? (I do understand the usage of the pulled back fist)"

Well, see, i would love to answer your question, but that is not something i ever learned, because all that i learned was forms. 4-5 hrs per day 6 days per week. this was already gone over:) could you tell me? maybe i should have learned from you. now how about gwa choy? do you modify this move from the form? it is an extremely uneconomical movement.
________
BODY SCIENCE (http://bodyscience.ws/)

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

Um, you didn't really believe me when I said I fight with a low, wide horse stance did you?

Since this is your first post I'll assume you aren't aware that the smiley faces usually indicate a joking comment. Not to be taken real serious.

[sayloc]

HLL

do you teach a take down as you step behind their legs with your right and take them down over your rt leg with your right arm in front pushing back as you sink slightly (you may be holding their arm with your left from your last grab), lowering your center for the take down? This has to be done from inside fighting of course and it helps to have a little grappleing theory. I bet you could even YEE!

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

Man this thread is moving fast. The previous post was a response to Gaura. Welcome to the forum.

mantiskilla
If you notice, most of the Gwa Choys in the forms aren't done exactly like in 8 Basic Punches. I believe that's what you're referring to, the 3 Gwa Choys in LOG for instance.

The Gwa Choy is a backfist which is found in almost all styles from Karate to Kung Fu and I think it's usefulness has been proven many times. Your current style might not utilize this move, I don't know.

The preceeding hand movement clearing the way for the strike makes sense to me and follows the WL pattern of creating an opening for your attack. Gwa Choy also makes for an excellent attacking block where you not only block but attempt to inflict injury on the limb at the same time. Very economical.

I hope yo're asking with a true interest in understanding and not just arguing based on a bad past experience with WL. I get the distinct feeling that I'll alway be wrong with a certain group of individuals here because their hostility does not allow them to ever admit that anything in WL is good or works.

BTW, I'm sure whatever your learning now someone from another style, like Wing Chun, will come along and tell you how uneconomical your moves are. Seems to be the nature of the arts. Of course the MMA crowd thinks we're all full of BS.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

sayloc
To be honest I don't think I care for that too much. Reason is that it's too much a matter of balance. there are some moves that if you aren't quick enough or shift weight at the right time either party can take the advantage. In my opinion that is one of those times. If you aren't good your opponent can reverse the takedown on you tossing you forward over his left leg and dropping you face down in the pavement. Much better to do the WL standing leg sweep (fairly common in WL sets) as the momentum will give you an edge. Personal opinion of course.

Now if you look at Soy Long Pow Choy (side waving punch) you can step into a hill climbing stance with lead leg behind opponent and strike high causing him trip over the leg as he tried to move away from the attack. I think this move is suited more for a larger person with some weight. I wouldn't try it myself against a larger opponent.

I also don't yee. I leave that for the kids.

[mantiskilla]

HLL
Man, i meant chow choy. memory is going on me, but gwa choy is a close 2nd. what about the hand on the hip? i am truly curious.
But, back to the gw choy. no my style does not have a strike like that, but here is how i would make it more economical: forget the first hand with the block, the fist would block the strike, with the elbow kept down an in to maintain control, and you keep contact with the forearm(bridging) as you move in. one hand does it all, and you have another free and waiting to be used. almost like a cross in boxing.
________
HURT FROM WELLBUTRIN (http://www.classactionsettlements.org/lawsuit/wellbutrin/)

[Gaura]

HLL
I'm not new, nor did i think you were serious...this IS however what is taught in wah lum as THE basic stance..and though it is in fact drilled into the heads of students of WL, it would not be used in fighting...practically speaking, neither would woo dip ma, or gwai ma...certainly not du ling ma or dun san ma...not ?as they were taught. And the problem with how some of us were taught was that we started as complete novices with no knowledge of martial arts. We were given tools and no instructions on how to use them.

Additionally, we were strongly discouraged from seeking outside educational resources in martial arts unless it was approved by the Sifu...and why should I have to go to someone else to learn what I'm paying thousands of dollars to learn from my "Teacher/Instructor"...my Sifu.

Just because you have books, doesn't mean that you know how to read them, if you follow my meaning.

Now, feel free to attack what you think are my weaknesses, though you don't know me or what I know...assuming anything about anyone in these forums is a mistake. I think "hidden applications" is just the WL way of saying "I have no idea what that's for".

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

I'm spending way too much time on this forum so excuse me if I don't answer all the questions and explain everything I know.

mantiskilla
Some uses for hand on hip (BTW, shouldn't actually be ON the hip but higher):
pulling opponent into you after a grab
rear elbow strike
for beginners it keeps the non-focused arm from just hanging or flailing about
a means of controlling the arms and using leg muscles for balance instead of extending arms for balance (common among beginners)

Chow Choy follows the same principle of clearing the way for the punch. Notice the Chow Choys are preceeded by a low circular block in Straight Form. Same principle, different move. Also, i don't feel constrained to do the moves exactly as taught. Each situation is different and hand motions and footwork can be mixed and matched to create new combinations. No sytle will give you every possible combination. You're allowed some creativity and are expected to apply the principles however needed. Something beginners don't know until they've trained for quite awhile. Techniques and forms are just examples of the principles to get you started. Kung Fu isn't like Karate where everything is set in stone and there's no room to deviate.

Gaura
Another one coming in with an agenda. Have you posted under another name or did you mean something different when you said you aren't new?

WL stances are taught low to develop leg strength. You always practice for more than you expect you will need to use. Train for 5 minute rounds by going 10+ minutes. Same philosophy.

Not to be attacking you but WL seems to get faulted for doing things that are common practice among martial arts. I really don't understand why.

Please don't transfer your experiences in WL to my way of teaching or doing things. You don't know me so follow your own advice and give me the benefit of doubt.

I'm sorry but I don't agree with your position that the basic stances are not useful in fighting 'as they are taught'. Maybe you learned them differently than I did.

Could you elaborate on the stances you currently use that you feel are fighting quality? Cat stance is fairly common throughout the martial arts. Are you saying it has no value?

Please send me a private message. Even my worst enemies here (so far we're all friends offline) will tell you that I'm straightforward and honest and will keep your identity secret if you wish.

Just wanted to add that the WL riding horese is the same as what I learned in multiple Karate schools. I've used it for sparring and fighting. Don't know what more I can say on the subject other than stick with what works for you.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

Seems to me that most of the anti-WL arguments are based on an admitted lack of knowledge about how to use the moves. They personall can't use it therefore it is useless. That's not neccessarily true.

I have to question why some teachers (approved styles I guess) can say there are secret apps without anyone questioning their knowledge but when a Wah Lum teacher says it the meaning changes to "I don't know the apps".

BTW, Wah Lum teachers are allowed the freedom to teach how they see fit and with the number of schools across the country that translates to quite a few different perspectives on how and what to teach. Taking a bad experience and generalizing across the whole organization shows ignorance. It's like saying all blacks are criminals because the black guy down the street is a criminal.

This is the end of my comments on all this crap. I put yu shan in my ignore list to avoid getting dragged into anymore PL vs WL and other silly application arguments. Anything OTHER than open minded discussions and/or question about WL or topics related to the serious threads can be discussed by PM.

[Gaura]

HLL,
I actually do know you...

A forum is precisely the place for people to voice their opinions...good or bad. it is a means for people looking for information on a topic from the people who know it best. And for those of us who have studied WL under certain instructors, the disillusionment was both crushing and eye opening. I think people seeking information on WL should have our perspective as well as yours. I have heard current WL defenders say repeatedly...WL always gets the bad rap for this...or ANOTHER former WL'er with an axe to grind...etc and, yes, I'm paraphrasing...To those folks, I say, "If it looks like a duck..."

As for how you teach...well, if you are instructing your students in the practical application of the techniques, and providing them with an understanding of WHY a particular stance is taught as it is taught, then you are certainly a better teacher than I had....however, I think it's wreckless for those who are new to martial arts to have to gamble with choosing a Sifu. Sigung decides who plays that role...and given that certain people have made it through the gate, it makes me skeptical about the whole system. Honestly, can you blame me?

[18elders]

You keep stating our admitted lack of knowledge, your changing what we say buddy, we stated the lack of being taught knowledge, applications, drills etc, wich is what should be taught.
I could dream things up no problem but I don't feel i should have to pay someone to learn a form and that is it. it seems to me that you kind of egg on the differences not yushan.
Like i said before, i have done wah lum and now pong lai and have the 2 to compare to. YOu have not trained with us so how can you judge us?
We are stating fact about our training in the system, i'm not making anything up nor is yushan.
I was not kicked out, i left on my own free will so i have no axe to grind with them. But i do feel truth should be told.
We all have our differences and this is a public forum to express them, nobody should take it personal and we should all stay friends and kung fu brothers and try not to get angry with one another.

it's friday so i'm going to go have a beer!!!!!!!!!
keep training

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

I apoligize if I incorrectly understood some of the posts. I got the impression from them that a lot of the ex-WL guys were clueless concerning apps (according to yu shan's lunch with 3 WL Sifus who supposedly said they were clueless when it comes to applying WL). I just don't make as big a distinction between figuring out apps as opposed the someone teaching me them. In fact I actually like researching the moves and finding uses for them. Granted that there are some I won't find, just as there are some I might not be taught (as expressed by other stylists, not just a WL phenomenon). If you have complete access to everything your teacher knows at any time during your training then good for you.

Personally I'll take whatever I can get. If I only get forms I'll make the best of it and study it until I'm satisfied.

Forgive my lack of knowledge concerning Tai Chi history but isn't there a story where a servant was not allowed to learn the family style so he watched their practice each night. When a challenge came to the family he stepped in and defeated the challenger. His perseverence in not allowing a lack of training to keep him from studying Tai Chi should be an inspiration rather than a condemnation of the family.

Also, I don't judge your training or your techniques. It's more the character of the person and the extant of the lies. Yes I did say lies as in zero applications are taught in WL. I find that statement impossible to believe (this was not one of your statements). I know you guys learned some apps while in WL.

I also have a problem with the assumption that anything thought up or discovered won't work. That idea is implicit in some of the comments about "dreaming stuff up" which is pretty much how the different styles started out in the first place. If you can dream up valid apps for the moves then why am I condemned for doing the same thing?

We're straying again and BTL will be chiming in soon I'm sure. Time to move on to something else.

[sayloc]

As far as secret applications or forms, maybe the sifu who is supposed to be teaching everything may just be smart enough not to run his mouth about not teaching you "everything" and holding back for certain students. That would be his right because they are his techniuqes. Isnt that what a secret is? Something that no one knows about or knows. It does sound like he gives more info though.

Only children run around saying "I know a secret".

Maybe the sifu that tells people that there are secret apps and forms that are saved just for family or chinese people (guessing on the family and chinese thing) should think before he speaks. It could save alot of problems.

Got to give the guy who has studied both styles some credit. After all he has studied both styles, but it is still "his opinion".

Maybe the HLL guy should take his friends up on their offer and train with them a little. Sounds like they know their stuff and it is always nice to train with different people. You dont have to leave your style just have fun. Im sure the other people (PL guys?) train with other styles a little.

If this would cause you political problems you could keep it you know..... a .........."secret"?

I dont know any of you guys, but thanks for the amusement.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by shanghai_kid
ie. boxers are good fighters and it's becuase they train hard. ...and because they spend the majority of their training time performing techniques that have direct application to their fighting. You will never hear a boxer talking about searching for hidden or secret techniques.

[devout]

people can round about to great extent
question someone's manner or methodology of training
but the crux of it is this...
no matter what you do
great or weak
hidden or clear
street or classical
if you do it enough times, that's what you will do in a clutch
and whether or not you walk away from the scene on top or on bottom all depends on how bad you want it, and how bad you want to take it from the other guy.
I love to train. After what I do all day long it remains a welcome respite, but as to keeping my head intact on the street I rely on skills I have learned from my little spin on this rock.
Those skills:
watch your back
keep you mouth shut
don't be a j***off
run faster than you can talk

practice your gung-fu because you love it, don't worry who can outstrip you....
if you have to fight on the street you failed long before the first blow was landed

btw....

I used to see ninjas, but I stopped huffing video head cleaner.

[yu shan]

Knifefighter

Absolutely 100% agree!

Devout

A Florida boy indeed, I got your spin on street wise. Yea, the fight on the street can be avoided, I got my ways. From what I gather, Hua Lin Laoshi learned alot of his stuff on the streets, I respect that. The street fighters are f`n tuff if you ask me. They can be a little outashape but make up for it in other ways. You better bring your A game! My thoughts about street fighters and secret techniques... fighting dirty. BTW has anyone checked out the clip on the main board of the two mandingos fighting? Woaa!

[bung bo]

HLL--that was just a hypothetical situation.anyway, you can have a hidden tech in a form that is not apparent in the single side of the form. that's what i was reffering to as "secret". that may be the way the form was created in the old days when the old masters had to fight for their lives. having a few secrets that not just anybody could see and rip off was good insurance when the fish hit the shan, and the original form has been preserved. come to the master shr's seminar in tampa in september and i'll show you what i mean. anyway, it would be nice to meet and discuss other stuff.

[mantisben]

Originally posted by shanghai_kid
To Mantis Ben

The quote of mine you replied says nothing about if a boxer can beat a 'martal artist' .... it's just illustrating a point that if you want to be able to fight and use skills, you have to train hard hard hard and be strong.

So I'm not sure where your reply comes from?

I thought you were implying that boxers have to train for 7 to 10 years, like a full-time athelete, before they're any good at fighting.

I may have mis-understood you. I'm sorry. My aplogies to you.

Originally posted by shanghai_kid
For example - my point says that we see using the example of boxers that to be good fighters you need to train hard - ie. boxers are good fighters and it's becuase they train hard.


Your point is right. I agree with you totally.

[Metal Mantis]

HLL,
Yeah, I agree with you on the validity of feeling free to think and dream. There had to be someone first, noone taught him. I understand too the fun of figuring things out. Being taught an app is also a great thing, but one step better is drilling them. Getting them in your muscles. When the "fish hits the shan" you wont have time really to think or dream, you have to react. And from what I can see, the best way to go about sucha thing is to train the apps, and train hard. I agree, my experience in Wah Lum was brief and all teachers teach different, but also from what I see, I never hear much of Wah Lum training apps or doing two person drills. Do you all in your temple?

Yu Shan, Bung Bo, Devout......
See you all soon...........

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

bung bo
"you can have a hidden tech in a form that is not apparent in the single side of the form. that's what i was reffering to as "secret"."
That's not exactly what I was originally talking about but there heve been a lot of good comments along these lines. I was talking about apps that don't look like the original move in the form. I've seen hidden apps in Kenpo that weren't apparent but the movement in the form was the same. I just have an issue with "here's the move in the form, now here's the app" and the stance or hand positions are different. The first display of this I find in a publication I'll post here. I've seen it plenty of times so it shouldn't be too hard to find again.

An example of what I expect to see is in Inside Kung Fu June 2004 The Leopard Of Bak Mei starting on page 31. The apps match the form, same stance, same hand positions.

Of course there will always be valid variations. I just think if you don't have a valid app for the exact way it's done in the form then change the form. If the form was designed, or modified, in such a way as to hide the intent of the moves then change it. Again, why ingrain bad moves into your body.

Metal Mantis
I taught apps and 2-man drills at my school in Kissimmee. Unfortunately it was short lived. I'm currently back at the Temple 1 or 2 times a week, mostly in the morning. The hands on training there has much room for improvement in my opinion. Same goes for the sparring and self defense classes but I have no say in those matters.

Unfortunately for me I haven't had anyone to train apps and 2-man drills with on a regular basis (no volunteers in WL, and ex-WL people aren't interested).

Every WL Sifu has freedom to teach how and what he wants as long as the basic curriculum is followed. There are minimum standards each school must adhere to and the rest is up to them. Each WL schools is different (which is why I hate to see a bad experience generalized across the whole organization). I like the freedom but I think there should be more consistency among the schools (or raise the minimum). Some schools teach things that others don't from what I see. I just see, and believe, things differently.

[BeiTangLang]

Originally posted by Hua Lin Laoshi

An example of what I expect to see is in Inside Kung Fu June 2004 The Leopard Of Bak Mei starting on page 31. The apps match the form, same stance, same hand positions.

I guess maybe I'm confused a bit, but This is the way all tcma's that I can think of; are.

Do you find this not to be the case??

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

Yes, I have seen examples of apps not fitting the form. Now when it comes to 2-man sets I understand that it's difficult to retain every move and still provide a continuation through the set so I've backed off in that area. But I still would like to see the moves in the 2-man match exactly the moves in the single form.

I've struggled with this myself trying to create the ling side to some WL sets. Modifying moves for the 2-man is the easy way but I believe everything in a form is there for a reason so it should work as done in the form. So far I haven't had to modify the form to make it work but it's difficult. I know some sets are meant to be drills but others lend themselves to 2-man quite well.

Guess I can't proceed until I find another example to post here. I have a stack of old MA magazines buried away so I'm sure I can find at least one example. Just haven't made the effort yet.

[BeiTangLang]

I guess my next question would then be, are you sure that the forms that you are not finding direct applications for were created for combat?

Some systems I have witnessed have forms which are primarily for show only. If this is the case, you are beating yourself up to find an application that was never there.
No disrespect at all intended, I'm just throwing thoughts out for your consideration.

Best Wishes,
~BTL

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

Well, I'm assuming that since they're showing applications that it's a combat form. Maybe that's the problem, they're making up apps for show forms. Whatever the case I'm not beating myself up looking for apps, just a casual observer wondering why they don't match.

A good example of my thoughts are this - Capoiera hid MA moves in dance. The reason for hiding the moves is long gone and almost everyone knows it isn't just dance. I'm sure there are those that like to keep it intact but why not drop the dance aspect and bring back the original MA as it was before it had to hide?

Tai Chi is similar. Originally a fighting art that turned into primarily a health exercise. I see examples there that apps and forms don't exactly match.

[Judge Pen]

Regarding Capoeria: since they had to add the dance step then the art involved the rhythm to the point that the dance and the MA were inseperable. Maybe kung fu has reached that point too.