Beng Chuan

[blackmantis]

Hello all,

Having a little trouble with my Beng Chuan, i don't know if it has any power or not. Does anyone know a way in which i could test it out (other than just hitting someone). Does anyone know how i could build power on the technique?

Many thanks,

S

[XVampireX]

Hey, i suggest you keep using beng chuan, this is pretty much the only way to build the power inside the punch, Do alot of san ti shi stance (for 10 minutes minimum on each side, you gotta keep practicing it until you get to 1 hour or more). Keep a note that Xing Yi and most internal martial arts use the rooting power, which means, your body needs to be aligned perfectly, and when it is you have to do the san ti shi and practice practice practice, after a while, you will feel that you're so much better in beng quan, afterwards you can go on and cross hands with someone, see how it is to be able and beat him!

Also, you might try practicing some animals forms that use alot of beng chuan if you want to be good at beng chuan, and again.. Practice makes perfect!

[DoGcHoW108]

There's a two-person drill i know for developing Beng Chuan, but i think its kinda complicated (yet, as usual, simple)...if you really want tho, ill try to describe it on here. It's one of those continuous back and forth things that will build your endurance.

Vampire, whats up man? Who you studying XingYi with in Israel? I might be moving there for a few months sometime this year.

[Tak]

Hit a heavy bag? Hit someone who's holding a kicking pad?

[cerebus]

Walk 10 miles a day doing Beng Chuan the whole way. :D

Or get arrested for killing an opponent in a challenge match so you get thrown in jail with shackles & chains on your wrists and ankles and spend the whole time practicing Beng Chuan all day, every day. :D

Alternatively you could just practice a whole lot! :D

[CD Lee]

I would agree that standing practice is very important, and the visualizations of contraction and expansions at the right times going pretty slow at first. I do not think, although I am no expert, that you have to stand in san ti for one hour at a time to have a good beng. I think you have to absolutely have a solid standing practice, because you will take that standing root into the strike zone to drive your opponents center down as you root your own center while expanding into them. Sounds friggin crazy I know, but I don't know how else to describe it. You just have to experience it.

It does not come on day one, or even six months from beginning practice, but it does come. Oh, and of course, all the alignmnets, elbow tucked in, shoulders down, head lifting, root sinking, intention expanding, wrist lined up with elbow, coordinated step with strike, etc...simple stuff :D

[Apostol]

Do a lot of Hsing Yi stepping, that helped me. Do it very slowly, don't forget your alignment, root, balance, and punching your lead foot into the ground, and moving in circular motions.

[CD Lee]

Blackmantis,

Stepping is good, but better take your Sifu's advice on HOW to step. 'Punching' that front foot into the ground may be a style variation and may only apply to Beng in some cases. I can say, we don't punch our front foot into the ground on Beng or any other elements. These things get complicated, but different family systems/styles have a lot of variation. What is important is that you do it they way your style does it. Unlike keeping your head up, shoulders down, elbows in --------- stepping and weighting variations are subjective from style to style.

[Rockwood]

Here's one I like:

Stand in Beng Quan position, with punch extended, body relaxed with the front of your fist touching someones body, preferably torso.

Don't move shoulder, keep arm perfectly still, take a half step and drive friend back. repeat. Use only your body structure to drive him back.

Make the half step smaller and smaller over time until you can just use a shaking shocking sort of jolt to hit, the shoulder always stays in still. The arm lengthens a little bit naturally.

As one teacher put it, Beng Quan as if you are thrusting a small rock into the person. As if there was a small rock between your fist and their torso and you are just jamming it in.

If you are pulling your arm back then hitting, this is not Beng Quan. I mean, you could do that too, but the real power is found at hitting from 0 distance.

Anyone else know this drill?

-JessO

[CD Lee]

Rock,

We have done something very similar. Same setup. Tiny step, and sink the fist inside the person while simultaneously downrooting. This can take their root and easily can put them on the ground without even really striking if you will. Very cool drill. Yes, It does seem a bit like driving a little rock into somebody. In our case, we did not push them back, but rather, as the fist enters or contacts, it seeks to 'drop' inside them. Of course your body is actually doing this dropping action. Very powerful. And another reason, that without standing practice, rooting and relaxation, beng cannot become very robust. With it, it can be downright shocking.

What other drills you guys do?

[XVampireX]

Originally posted by Apostol
Do a lot of Hsing Yi stepping, that helped me. Do it very slowly, don't forget your alignment, root, balance, and punching your lead foot into the ground, and moving in circular motions.

Apostol:
1. Xing Yi is not taichi, by internal they do not mean that its like taichi (slow), that same principle applies to bagua.

2. Hsing Yi/Xing Yi/Hsing I/ETC.... is pronounced Shing I, just so you know (I've seen one of your friends clips where they laugh at xing yi, and stupidly calling it sing yi :-/)

3. Xing Yi is NOT bagua, xing yi has its own way of walking, and the way Xing Yi fighters practice/walk is LINEAR!

Thats all i had to comment on, everything else was correct.

And there's a saying "The movements of Xingyiquan stress that the eyes, hands, feet, and body start and stop at the same time." This should help some clearance. I've quoted it from another website, but it is true.

[Apostol]

Yes, I know all of that. They pronounced it "Xing Xang" in their video clip...lol

[XingYiDao]

hey vampire seriosly shut up what do you know of xingyi last month you were looking for a teacher and now you think your a **** expert i use bagua steping sometime and doing your xingyi slow can also help so do me a favour STFU!:D

[XVampireX]

:O I dont think im an expert... but i only try to help people :O!

And i never said anything about not using bagua as a stepping, i just said that xing yi is a linear art, and you have to use linear movements.. Anyways, im not even quite sure if xing yi can be done with bagua circle walking, since the power is coming from being rooted (san ti), and being rooted is so much harder when going in circles.

Doing xing yi slowly, not as slow as taichi of course, but taking time between each movement.

[Felipe Bido]

Originally posted by XVampireX
: i just said that xing yi is a linear art, and you have to use linear movements.. Anyways, im not even quite sure if xing yi can be done with bagua circle walking, since the power is coming from being rooted (san ti),

Actually, Xingyi is not strictly linear...it is diagonal...very small diagonal patterns. Like arches.

And sure, you can use Bagua stepping in Xingyi..just watch the turns of Pao, Heng, Monkey and others.

[DoGcHoW108]

Actually, there's a perfect example in the monkey form for XingYi that i know that is an excellent example of circular stepping...the first step is like the closed-knuckle part of Pi Chuen, just you step way outward and point the hands to 45 degrees backwards from where you were oriniganny facing. i might have described this weirdly but hopefully you guys get it.

[DoGcHoW108]

also, a lot of the applications in xingyi can be done with circular stepping---really most of what bagua is is XingYi done in circles.

[Buddy]

Nonsense.

[DoGcHoW108]

intelligent response, anyone?

[XVampireX]

DoGcHoW108 and Felipe Bido: You're both correct... However, its still not AS circular AS bagua stepping.

[Tak]

Pfft, a straight line is just a really big circle. So all you linear fighters are just in denial about doing crappy bagua on a giant circle. :p

[Buddy]

How's this? Your comment:
"really most of what bagua is is XingYi done in circles."
is nonsense. It is rather more revealing about your lack of understanding of baguazhang than about bagua itself. I can explain my point real well but I'd be first interested your explanation of your comment.

[Felipe Bido]

Originally posted by XVampireX
DoGcHoW108 and Felipe Bido: You're both correct... However, its still not AS circular AS bagua stepping.

LOL..I think that's too **** evident to even give an opinion about it. Xingyi turns are a half circle :p

[DoGcHoW108]

Originally posted by Buddy
How's this? Your comment:
"really most of what bagua is is XingYi done in circles."
is nonsense. It is rather more revealing about your lack of understanding of baguazhang than about bagua itself. I can explain my point real well but I'd be first interested your explanation of your comment.

Thankyou for an elaborate version of an ignorant response. Accordant with your request, I will try to explain in simple what I mean- though I dont feel it necessary to.

Handwork in XingYi is very reminiscent of Bagua's with it's Intercrossing of arms to create locks, throws, etc. (good examples are Heng and Zuan chuen, but really all 5 and much of the animal system contain this).

The stepping, although linear in appearance, can be used very efficiently in applications of "linear" XingYi (again, monkey is a good example. Dragon, too. I dont know, so far, any other animals but i dont believe i will be too surprized when i learn others.) Actually, there are some steps in xingYi that might surprise you as far as turning and applicability in circles.

Other things, like the waist, posture and other structural components are very similar as well.

Thus, Bagua builds on much of what XingYi has to teach. Really, Bagua is what XingYi is trying to tell, or, hint to us.

This, as far as my comment, is an oversimplified but general explanation of my "nonsense".

The truth is that the only thing "Linear" about XingYi it is that the forms go in a straiglt line (as you might know, obsession with forms leads to all sorts of malfunctions and corruptions in martial arts and people's understanding of them). But I don't really expect you to know too much about this, since you sound like a beginner who got his ideas about Xingyi from Jet Li in "The One". You want to defend the uniqueness of your MA, and to some degree I understand that. But really, your response to my comment is "rather more revealing about your lack of understanding" of how martial arts relate to one another.

You seem to have absolutely NO knowlege or understanding (at best) of Hong and Ssu Jing circles in XingYi. Right off, this concept would show you how much is behind the dogmatic notion that XingYi is completely A to B linear and thus completely different from and unrelated to Bagua. Maybe DO you know- in which case i pity you for learning so slowly.

Perhaps you know better than I think you do, in which case you should restrain your comments about my information and inquire rather than assault. I am here to be your freind and a possible means of learning and teaching. I, myself, havent been in xingyi for very long at all and I would like to learn.

[Apostol]

Originally posted by DoGcHoW108
But I don't really expect you to know too much about this, since you sound like a beginner who got his ideas about Xingyi from Jet Li in "The One".


HA! Now I need to see that movie.

[Buddy]

<Thankyou for an elaborate version of an ignorant response. Accordant with your request, I will try to explain in simple what I mean- though I dont feel it necessary to.>

Actually my answer was succinct.


<Handwork in XingYi is very reminiscent of Bagua's with it's Intercrossing of arms to create locks, throws, etc. (good examples are Heng and Zuan chuen, but really all 5 and much of the animal system contain this).>


Reminiscent? That's a bit different than saying it's the same.

<The stepping, although linear in appearance, can be used very efficiently in applications of "linear" XingYi (again, monkey is a good example. Dragon, too. I dont know, so far, any other animals but i dont believe i will be too surprized when i learn others.) Actually, there are some steps in xingYi that might surprise you as far as turning and applicability in circles.>


It might surprise you what doesn't surprise me.

<Other things, like the waist, posture and other structural components are very similar as well.>

Similar? Perhaps. I would say they both use a basic structure and neijin.

<Thus, Bagua builds on much of what XingYi has to teach. Really, Bagua is what XingYi is trying to tell, or, hint to us.>


So what you're saying is Bagua is what Xingyi wants to be? That Bagua is more refined, sophisticated?


<This, as far as my comment, is an oversimplified but general explanation of my "nonsense".>

Your comment was Bagua is Xingyi done on a circle. I stand by my assertion.

<The truth is that the only thing "Linear" about XingYi it is that the forms go in a straiglt line (as you might know, obsession with forms leads to all sorts of malfunctions and corruptions in martial arts and people's understanding of them). But I don't really expect you to know too much about this, since you sound like a beginner who got his ideas about Xingyi from Jet Li in "The One".>

And yet I use my real name and my background is well known to many here. Feel free to investigate it before making such ignorant assumptions.

<You want to defend the uniqueness of your MA, and to some degree I understand that. But really, your response to my comment is "rather more revealing about your lack of understanding" of how martial arts relate to one another.>

Once again, both share common basics. Beyond that they are different.

>You seem to have absolutely NO knowlege or understanding (at best) of Hong and Ssu Jing circles in XingYi. Right off, this concept would show you how much is behind the dogmatic notion that XingYi is completely A to B linear and thus completely different from and unrelated to Bagua. Maybe DO you know- in which case i pity you for learning so slowly.>


OK a straw man. You said they were the same. I never said they were unrelated. They share structure, the use of whole body power, and neijin. Beyond that they are different.

<Perhaps you know better than I think you do, in which case you should restrain your comments about my information and inquire rather than assault.>

Assault? Your comment was wrong. I merely pointed that out. But thanks for the behavior lesson.


<I am here to be your freind and a possible means of learning and teaching. I, myself, havent been in xingyi for very long at all and I would like to learn.>

My friend? I don't know you or your background. You use a phoney name and claim some understanding. Not untypical on this board. I have no problem with friendly discourse and a degree of public sharing but you resort to personal attack. I commented on your statements, you commented on me. The bottom line is Xingyi is not Bagua.

[MMARULESonTMA]

Hi,

Okay, while they are different, I cannot see anything in Xinyi that isn't in Taiji. Taiji has alot of everything! The way I view it, is in Xinyi, your body moves like a ball rolling forward. My feet will grip the floor as they "roll" forward while stepping, and Taiji is ggod for that training this as well as Xinyi. The waist turns like an axle in xinyi, just as in Taiji. Taiji has Splitting, drilling, crushing, pounding and crossing. And Taiji has palm changing The way I view it, the oldest written thing on Xinyi , I've found on the net about Xinyi, states that it is Shaolin, external. I interpret that to mean that's it's a Muslim and Shaolin style.

As far as bagua, the palm changes seem to be inside twisting stepping, which is in other styles such as Karate and White Crane no? Or outwards twist stepping, which is in Taiji and shaolin styles, combined with internal, and Chan su jin energy. Unless bagua palm change is totally unique to bagua, then I would like to hear someone go ahead and explain how it is not so. Taiji has palm changing.

[Felipe Bido]

Originally posted by MMARULESonTMA
I've found on the net about Xinyi, states that it is Shaolin, external.

Xin Yi Ba of Shaolin, and Xin Yi Liuhe are two completely different styles. Even the names are written different, but their pinyin transcriptions are similar.

[MMARULESonTMA]

But are they truly different ................... or not related. Hard to prove No? Maybe spelled differently, but the origins are unknown, and can't be attributed to one person or one place. But what I read on a site with a manuscript written a long time ago by masters, says xingyiquan is shaolin external

Right, threre's so many so called "external " systems claiming to be from shaolin, and personally, the qi, and internal power of xinyi impresses me, although not as much as Taijiquan. Choy lay fut= different from Wing Chun. Both Shaolin

[Felipe Bido]

Originally posted by MMARULESonTMA
But what I read on a site with a manuscript written a long time ago by masters, says xingyiquan is shaolin external


They are not related.

And about that manuscript...MA historians would love to see that manuscript, you know, because no one has found anything that relates XINYIQUAN (Xingyiquan came after) to Shaolin. The guys on that site you talk about can do the MA world a great favor by telling them about the manuscript...

Of course...if the manuscript wasn't channelled through some ancient spirit...eh? ;)

[Buddy]

<Okay, while they are different, I cannot see anything in Xinyi that isn't in Taiji. Taiji has alot of everything! The way I view it, is in Xinyi, your body moves like a ball rolling forward. My feet will grip the floor as they "roll" forward while stepping, and Taiji is ggod for that training this as well as Xinyi. The waist turns like an axle in xinyi, just as in Taiji. Taiji has Splitting, drilling, crushing, pounding and crossing. And Taiji has palm changing The way I view it, the oldest written thing on Xinyi , I've found on the net about Xinyi, states that it is Shaolin, external. I interpret that to mean that's it's a Muslim and Shaolin style.

As far as bagua, the palm changes seem to be inside twisting stepping, which is in other styles such as Karate and White Crane no? Or outwards twist stepping, which is in Taiji and shaolin styles, combined with internal, and Chan su jin energy. Unless bagua palm change is totally unique to bagua, then I would like to hear someone go ahead and explain how it is not so. Taiji has palm changing.>>>

I don't know where to even begin! The body method is completely different in Karate/White Crane and any of the "internal" arts. When you say Taiji has palm changing, what do mean? What do think it means in Baguazhang? What does being a Muslim have to do internal arts? Shaolin is generic in the way you use it. Do you mean external? long fist? Taji is not Xing/Xin yi is not Bagua and certainly not karate or bai he.

[MMARULESonTMA]

You can't tell me that inside or outside twist step is not in ither martial arts. By Palm change , I maen a palm comes under the other palm, clears it, and changes. Or over the other palm. It's in Taiji, and appears to be in Luihe bafa, and I learned on another site that the full name for it is xinyi luihe bafa. So xinyi luihe quan must be related to xinyi luihe bafa, which comes from the same time period as Zhang San Feng, there are animals forms, and more Taiji like forms in the style apparently

[Felipe Bido]

I'm also interested to know where the Splitting, Drilling, Crushing, Pounding and Crossing are in the Taiji forms...

And, since you're talking about XINYIQUAN, Not, Xingyiquan, where can I find the principles of the 10 animals in the Taiji forms?---Thanks.-

[MMARULESonTMA]

Splitting is in many, many moves. Part wild horse's mane immediately comes to mind. Not to mention Buddha's warrior pounds mortar. Drilling is in so many moves, I think it is funadamental to every move, but White Ape presents fruit is one. Beng quan is literally in the form. Pao? Buddha's warrior pounds mortar again, as well as MOST fajin movements, and part wild horses mane on both sides, and Shake both feet, as well as jade girl weaves shuttle. Heng is in any move to the corner, like lazy about tying coat.

As far as animals, well, I only know a few. But there are big animals and small animals. And there is big 6 sealing and 4 closing, as well as regular 6 sealing and closing

[Felipe Bido]

I know about direction, but I'm talking about the internal energies in the movements. Please, expand on that. It's very interesting-

[MMARULESonTMA]

Info on Xinyi Luihe bafa, posted by Xango (http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=14797&perpage=15%highlight=xinyi%20luihe&pagenumber=22)

As far as internal energy of heng, well, I don't so much xinyi, I view it crossing an arm over your body, and hitting with the shoulder, or any part of the whole body, and at the same time, the other palm can come over, crossing in the other direction, hitting with the palm, then crossing back over with the main arm, to hit the opponent perhaps in the throat, although that's not the application I would use for lazy about tying coat and 6 sealing. Just in xingyi you'd do it facing forward I think, maybe not.

See the Chen Taiji applications (http://www.hsing-i.com/pics/index.html)

[Felipe Bido]

"Lazy About Tying Coat" doesn't have the same energy as Heng...even if they look the same. That's one of the problems with Heng Quan (And other moves) in Xingyiquan. You see it, and you think you know what's going on...but you have to feel it.

Heng Quan has crossing energy only at the end, to emphasize Cun Jin. While Lan Zha Yi uses a wave that comes from the center of the body, outwards.

Xingyiquan has a Lan Zha Yi move...but you have to go to the old, rare Xingyi families to see it. When I was learning the move, I tried to use Heng energy to do it, and the root of my shoulders hurt for like a week. Using the wrong jing, perhaps.

[MMARULESonTMA]

Well, I think it does have heng for sure but using the shoulder, and with a different direction. One hand goes over the other, almost like silat or stickfighting. I don't think you can even catergories the energies as 5. Some are done internally with no movement. But what I've seen, heng was a longer energy, rather than a short energy, and was from opening one side with a small close on the other, which is like alot of xingyi postures, one side long and open the other closed tightly

That's beyond me, and seriously, what I know of xingyi is very limited. In the bear form i learned though, it definately uses Pi, tsuan, and heng, short and long power. Lazy about tying coat is a bigger open movement, compared to others, as is heng, and they both cross side to side. WHat is heng, from what I've seen it's a big long backhand or palm strike to the ear, not so much a tight closed fist, but I've only seen a couple animals.

[Felipe Bido]

Originally posted by MMARULESonTMA
WHat is heng, from what I've seen it's a big long backhand strike to the ear,

Heng is nothing like that. That's exactly what I'm talking about...what you see on the outside, most of the time is different of what really goes on inside your body.-

Pi Quan is closer to a backhand strike to the ear than Heng. Do a search on 'Fan Pi Quan' (Turned Splitting Fist), and you'll see a backhanded slap to the ear.

[MMARULESonTMA]

No, that's not what I meant, Pi quan is pushing downwards while pulling back. The best application would be catch a kick lifting it up, pull it back while slamming the back of the opponents head to the ground. I don't see a back hand there. The best heng I've seen, was like a whirlwind strike, a big palm to ear, not a tight in crossing. Then what energy, do whirlwing palm type strikes use? But I could see a smaller heng move being used to break the opponents structure from the side in close.

[Felipe Bido]

Pi is not only a 'push'...Pi is circular force going from up to down. You have to see a Fan Pi to know. Pushing down has more "Eagle" energy, with, or without the catch.


The best application would be catch a kick lifting it up, pull it back while slamming the back of the opponents head to the ground.

That's a Pi Application, but definitely not the best one to judge a Pi Quan. But, if you want to judge Eagle, that would be among the top 3 best.

What would you say about "Slamming the Head on a Tombstone" from Xinyi Liuhe, then?...It has definitive Pi energy, but there is not a push anywhere in it.


The best heng I've seen, was like a whirlwind strike, a big palm to ear, not a tight in crossing. Then what energy, do whirlwing palm type strikes use?

Wrapping, man...wrapping

[MMARULESonTMA]

I didn't really mean push, just a direction force, but I'm not gonna be talking all about mind intent and stuff, it was a poor choice.

Do you mean wrapping as drilling, or a different energy. Because I can't see drilling in large crossing moves. Perhaps you would like to outline all the distinct animal jins if you're saying there are more than the basic 5. I've only learned bear, that's the only one. I didn't learn any of the energies as being the core 5, but definately see them, and more.

Pushing though with structure and the trademark xingyi step, insures the head hits the ground. Actually, how can you say any xingyi move doesn't use push? It's always got push. Pi definately has push, because otherwise it's just all inch or fa jin. ****, push is teh deadly. Without push, you look skilled, but not destructive.

Rise, overturn and fall, ( like crashing waves right), are in all of xingyi, swallow and spit, but without push................

[Felipe Bido]

'Crossing' is more related to 'Drilling' than Wrapping...the real Heng Quan is like a underarm drilling with short power wrapping energy.

'Wrapping' looks more like Lan Zha Yi. Wide, evidently circular energy that goes sideways.

Ah, there are many, many jings...in every Xingyi form there are 5 jings, that must NOT be missed. If they're not there, it's not Xingyi. These jings are:

- Cai Jing (Trampling Energy)
- Pu Jing (Pouncing Energy)
- Guo Jing (Wrapping Energy)
- Shu Jing (Binding Energy)
- Jue Jing (Exploding Energy)

I could explain each one of those, but it'd take my afternoon away.

Apart from those, are the 5 Jings that everyone knows about.

Each animal is a combination of jings, mixed in more or less degrees, producing their own jings. For example, Monkey is a mix of Pi Jing, Pao Jing, using a less degree of Cai Jing.

Etc..etc..etc...

[Felipe Bido]

Originally posted by MMARULESonTMA
Actually, how can you say any xingyi move doesn't use push? It's always got push. Pi definately has push, because otherwise it's just all inch or fa jin. ****, push is teh deadly. Without push, you look skilled, but not destructive.



Read my previous post, and you'll find 'Pu Jing' (Pouncing) as a mandatory jing in Xingyiquan. That could answer your question.

I didn't say they don't use 'push' as in 'pouncing'...I'm talking about 'pushing' someone with the hands. Let's not get stuck in semantics.

[MMARULESonTMA]

Right. Semantices. Pouncing, xingyi is a ball rolling forwards. I would describe high pat on horse, as pouncing on the opponent. Anyone who's sees a taiji push knows it ramples the opponent, due to follow, join, sticking, and adhereing, and 5 steps. And while energies, are not the core energies of taiji, but rather enable the use of the energies, such as peng if your structure is broken.

What is the relationship between the energies you listed, and the 5 core.

[Felipe Bido]

The energies I listed are more like 'Intention Jings', that prepare and keep the 6 harmonies united and effective. That's why they must be present in every move. The five core are jings of direction and use/issuing of power. The five I listed are lead by the two last ones: Binding/tying/Uniting (They must act as a single unity) and Explosive. Having that on mind, you can shift through the 5 core energies as you see fit (Or as the situation requires it), without changing the 5 I listed.

I hope this is clear.

It's been a good exchange, but I must leave now.

[Felipe Bido]

Ah, just another thing:

Pu Jing (Pouncing Energy) has the same definition as the principle of Stick, press and follow.

The Xingyi classics state that "Pouncing is like pushing on a wall to make it crumble...like a Tiger pouncing on a rabbit"

Just a little bit of info that I thought might be useful.

Now I'm really leaving :p

[MMARULESonTMA]

I may have been wrong about lazy about tying coat containing heng. Here is an interesting video I found on this forum though. Heng is possibly in walk obliquly with twist step.

http://homepage.mac.com/stevefarrell/images/classified.mov

[MMARULESonTMA]

Heng is in Sheild body and punch/ Green dragon comes out of water. I get those mixed up as seperate moves. Cross in with the right arm, then hit with left shouldr. Opening and closing.

Would you say heng crosses with the opposite hand, as the foot you have forward?

Okay, where is heng in this video clip I found on various forums. If it's not related to a whirlwind slap, it must be in the blocks. Heng to me , is step out with left foot, and cross with a right backhand strike

http://www.brainsalad.com/mov/clip06.mov

I think Taiji is just more concerned with corneres, and bagua with 8(10) directions. Same but more complicated.

[DoGcHoW108]

Originally posted by DoGcHoW108
also, a lot of the applications in xingyi can be done with circular stepping---really most of what bagua is is XingYi done in circles.

Buddy, this was my original statement.

Here are some of yours and my responses:

"Reminiscent? That's a bit different than saying it's the same."

-I didnt say they were the same

"Similar? Perhaps. I would say they both use a basic structure and neijin."

-I agree with you

"So what you're saying is Bagua is what Xingyi wants to be? That Bagua is more refined, sophisticated?"

-in less of an infantile way, yes

"Your comment was Bagua is Xingyi done on a circle."

-no it wasn't

"Once again, both share common basics. Beyond that they are different."

-I agree with you

"You said they were the same."

-This is reminding me of a bugs bunny movie...

"you resort to personal attack."

-that's the cute one

Pretty much every one of your responses is consistent with what i was saying or is a complete contradiction of reality. I'm amazed you're ever taken seriously and im really kind of disappointed to have participated in this six-year-old's ****ing contest.

You use your name on here- man, that really says a lot about a person- good job; I'm so jealous of your integrity.

I'm done responding to you, man. theres people much more knowlegeable and much less childish on here who havent attacked me for making any statements and then turned around to claim that I attacked them.

[MMARULESonTMA]

The manuscript I speak of, is at this site

http://www.chinafrominside.com/ma/xyxy/guoweihan.html

" Dai family xiniyquan, passed within Dai clan, belongs to Shaolin External branch, and was transmitted outside to Li Laoneng"

[DoGcHoW108]

MMA...your previous posts, were they about XingYi or XinYi? I've read some of what's on Jarek's page and i understand they are pretty different.

[DoGcHoW108]

BTW this http://www.brainsalad.com/mov/clip06.mov i think it was written in chinese "Liu He Ba Fa" Six Unities Eight Methods- this is a different system from taiji, although it supposedly cintains its concepts within it.

[MMARULESonTMA]

I know some hsing yi, and a little tiny bit of xinyi. I think they are not different so much, as far as the 5 energies. SOme moves are obviously pi quan. SOme obviously heng, like step out to the side and back hand strike, while the other hand crosses over to block, just like silat. Some are done close in, some ****her away

As far as I've been told, that clip is xingyi. One teacher I had, actually had that video on tape. He showed it to the class, and said it was xingyi, I beleive him cause he owns that video , on cassette.

Oh, I think you mixed up the clips!

[Felipe Bido]

Originally posted by MMARULESonTMA
The manuscript I speak of, is at this site

http://www.chinafrominside.com/ma/xyxy/guoweihan.html

" Dai family xiniyquan, passed within Dai clan, belongs to Shaolin External branch, and was transmitted outside to Li Laoneng"

Ah, yeah, but that's not a manuscript. That's Che Style's memorial stone. I read the trnscript a while ago. The "Shaolin external branch" means "Outside of Shaolin"; but I'm going to look for the Chinese original to check it out.

[MMARULESonTMA]

But really, how different is the Xingyi reflex traing, on the videos at this site, from Bruce Lee wing chun stuff.

http://www.xingyitchuen.com.br/index_2.html

[MMARULESonTMA]

Oh Okay, I see, that would definately change the meaning of the writings. It's internal then lol, no big deal to me anyways. Can't trust some writings on a tombstone.

[DoGcHoW108]

wait...yea i did get em mixed up.

wow so much new info from you guys- i'm writing down notes to ask my teacher, heh.

[Felipe Bido]

Originally posted by MMARULESonTMA
Can't trust some writings on a tombstone.

Oh, you can trust them...the problem is in the translation. Just look at how many translations of the Tao Te Ching are out there ;)

That's why I'm looking for the chinese text.

[Felipe Bido]

Originally posted by DoGcHoW108
wait...yea i did get em mixed up.

wow so much new info from you guys- i'm writing down notes to ask my teacher, heh.

Write!..write! :D

[MMARULESonTMA]

Cool, I'd like to see that when you find out, because I don't wann go saying Xingyi is shaolin, if some of my arguments are not right. But if it's not shaolin it still kind of is, and I don't care, internal or external cause I already know they are the same. But Shaolin is cooler than shape/mind fist.

[Buddy]

<<Buddy, this was my original statement.

Here are some of yours and my responses:

"Reminiscent? That's a bit different than saying it's the same."

-I didnt say they were the same>>>>>

most of what bagua is is xingyi done in circles... bagua is xingyi done in circles...hmm.

<<<"So what you're saying is Bagua is what Xingyi wants to be? That Bagua is more refined, sophisticated?"

-in less of an infantile way, yes>>>

In that you seem to agree please explain why you consider it infantile. You tend to see what you want to see.

<<<"Your comment was Bagua is Xingyi done on a circle."

-no it wasn't>>>

"bagua is is XingYi done in circles. " How do you propose to get away from your own words? Or are we going to argue on/in?


<<You use your name on here- man, that really says a lot about a person- good job; I'm so jealous of your integrity. >>>

Indeed. Want to check the website, too? Using my real name says I'm not afraid to own up to my words.


<<<I'm done responding to you, man. theres people much more knowlegeable and much less childish on here who havent attacked me for making any statements and then turned around to claim that I attacked them.>>>

I'm not going to judge who on an anonymous BB is better than me or not. I certainly hope there is someone better than me. I don't give a rat's patoot what you care for. You said bagua is xingyi done on a circle. That is nonsense and I said so. Sorry if it got your panties in a bunch but that is not an attack, it's an opinion. Now I guess I'll have to rent your Jet Li movie to see what the hell you're talking about.

Buddy Tripp
Yizong Bagua
Lungmen School

[MMARULESonTMA]

"I'm Not Afraid"- Luke Skywalker

" You will be, you will be" - Yoda

ROFLMAO at " rat's patoot"

[XVampireX]

Look what i did! One day i come here to comment on something, the other day, its all full of arguements!

Lets leave the theory and get to the obvious:

Xing Yi may have some shares with Bagua. But They are both different martial arts, so dont go on and tell me you're gonna do bagua stepping in xing yi, cause thats a little bit ridicolous!!! Xing Yi has a purpose there, why the stepping is pretty linear (And yes, there are angular stepping, but _not_ CIRCLE WALKING!).

And like Felipe Bido says: Each element fist has its own energy issuing feel, maybe Taichi "has" many of the moves in Xing Yi, it still doesnt mean that its the same element fist.

/me says he has seen "The One" but doesnt quite remember seeing Xing Yi and Bagua there exactly. But it could be his fault cause sometimes when he watches movies, he doesnt understand it, and he thinks that the movie is over before he even knows it :O

Yeah, thats what i have to say!

[cerebus]

WOW! And backbreaker is back...AGAIN!!!
MMARULESonTMA is indeed backbreaker. Surprisingly, he hasn't started ranting yet..... but it will happen, yes it will happen.

[Big_Phat_Wong]

Originally posted by DoGcHoW108
Thankyou for an elaborate version of an ignorant response. Accordant with your request, I will try to explain in simple what I mean- though I dont feel it necessary to.

Handwork in XingYi is very reminiscent of Bagua's with it's Intercrossing of arms to create locks, throws, etc. (good examples are Heng and Zuan chuen, but really all 5 and much of the animal system contain this).

The stepping, although linear in appearance, can be used very efficiently in applications of "linear" XingYi (again, monkey is a good example. Dragon, too. I dont know, so far, any other animals but i dont believe i will be too surprized when i learn others.) Actually, there are some steps in xingYi that might surprise you as far as turning and applicability in circles.

Other things, like the waist, posture and other structural components are very similar as well.

Thus, Bagua builds on much of what XingYi has to teach. Really, Bagua is what XingYi is trying to tell, or, hint to us.

This, as far as my comment, is an oversimplified but general explanation of my "nonsense".

The truth is that the only thing "Linear" about XingYi it is that the forms go in a straiglt line (as you might know, obsession with forms leads to all sorts of malfunctions and corruptions in martial arts and people's understanding of them). But I don't really expect you to know too much about this, since you sound like a beginner who got his ideas about Xingyi from Jet Li in "The One". You want to defend the uniqueness of your MA, and to some degree I understand that. But really, your response to my comment is "rather more revealing about your lack of understanding" of how martial arts relate to one another.

You seem to have absolutely NO knowlege or understanding (at best) of Hong and Ssu Jing circles in XingYi. Right off, this concept would show you how much is behind the dogmatic notion that XingYi is completely A to B linear and thus completely different from and unrelated to Bagua. Maybe DO you know- in which case i pity you for learning so slowly.

Perhaps you know better than I think you do, in which case you should restrain your comments about my information and inquire rather than assault. I am here to be your freind and a possible means of learning and teaching. I, myself, havent been in xingyi for very long at all and I would like to learn.


DoGsH!T108,

people like you are why I don't post here often. Now I've never met Buddy, but I know him from EF and think it's a safe bet that he's been practicing Xingyi & Bagua since you were just a bulge in your dad's pants. Your statements are completely arbitrary and off-base, and he simply called you on them. So you got all huffy and started flinging presumptious insults. Trust me, you are like a little chihuahua yapping at an elephant.

If you had a shred of sense and knew who you were talking to, you would realize you're outclassed, retract your statements and apologize for your childishness. Buddy's a nice enough guy, he might even toss you a clue. Otherwise? Enjoy your delusions of mediocrity.


Buddy,

sorry to interrupt the conversation, but this thread steamed me like Chinese broccoli. I'm over it now. Hope you guys had a good time hosting Master Luo.



Big_Phat_Wong out.

[Buddy]

BPW,
mmmm gailan and oyster sauce. maybe with some lop cheong...
BTW did you ever get to see Guru Plinck's vid?
B
PS Luo Laoshi was brilliant and very open this year. After having him here for a week LeoV, Aurelious, and I went and spent four days in Maryland with George Wood, his students and Bernie Langan and his students. It was xingyi from 6:30 till breakfast, Gao xiantien till lunch, Gao houtien till supper then theory and history till bed...repeat. Next year Bai He will have to go. It was great having four days with Luo in the countryside.

[DoGcHoW108]

Originally posted by Big_Phat_Wong
DoGsH!T108,

people like you are why I don't post here often.

Dude...i dont even know what to say. The very first word between us is an insult- and i havent even done anything to you. How can you logically say...ah, forget it.

Look, this thing has been blown out of all proportion. Here's how i see it:

I made a statement. Somebody disagreed and insulted my opinion by calling it nonsense.

It is very possible that my statement was nonsense, since i have little experience in both XingYi and Bagua. But precisely because of this, i am willing to listen and learn.

I am NOT, however, willing to listen and learn from someone who insults me for merely stating an opinion. I have never heard the slightest hint of this attitude from my teacher EVER, and i dont see why i should hear it from others.

Buddy- I have tried to PM you; i cant do that. I have tried to e-mail you; i can't do that. despite my claims to the contrary, I really wanted to continue my interaction with you (though not in this thread but i cant do it any other way) because it looks like you might be someone who knows what he's talking about.

Look, seriously, i will more than willingly retract my statement, but please explain to me the flaws in my understanding other than by simply calling them nonsense. I said that MOST OF WHAT BAGUA IS is xingyi done in circles- you disagree- i didn't say you were wrong to disagree. Just explain to me why, with a little less zeal.

from what i've learned of bagua and xingyi, they seem very similar, and to me, it seems like bagua just kind of takes XingYi into another dimension. also, if you look at my responses and ignore the fact that you kind of ****ed me off by responding the way you did, you will see that we do agree on quite a bit.

seriously, please explain to me why you disagree. I am being as sincere as i can.

PS: i did NOT say they are the same. i am actually kind of tired of this convenient and incorrect augmentation of my opinion.

thanks, DC

[Brad]

I said that MOST OF WHAT BAGUA IS is xingyi done in circles-
I don't quite understand what you mean... I've done a bit of baguazhang and a bit of xinyiquan, but the feeling and look of the techniques feel completely different to me. I don't remember ever doing anything like the wu xing quan in a circle...

[DoGcHoW108]

Ok, i happened to stumble onto this- http://www.yizongbagua.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=36&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=

forget how i phraised things by word- i really thing that what i'm trying to say is kind of said on this thread from www.yizongbagua.com



Anyway, the original comment, for better or for worse, was that most of what bagua really is xingyi done in a circle.

Perhaps i shouldn't have worded it that way but really i dont see how anyone can miss the xingyi in bagua, or even the bagua in xingyi. its just one (xingYi) of them dosent necessarily have circular stepping drills. of course, i might be wrong seeing as to how i have only learned a small fraction of what xingyi has to offer as far as actual sets. the other one does have this curcular thing to it, but even in the bagua, especially since we are talking Gao and i happen to know some Gao Bagua, you have the straightline sets, and a lot of what i see in Gao's straightline sets i kind of see and feel in the 5-elements. If the HouTien sets can be incorporated into circular bagua, why can't the 5-element or the animal forms?

is anyone seeing the connection i'm trying to make? I'm wiling to keep trying until someone gets where i'm getting at.


of course, everything is relative- it could even be that Xingyi and Bagua are so **** different from anything else i've done that i just dont see it as mangified yet to be able to distinguish between them.

[MMARULESonTMA]

DOn't worry, I got your back . These idiots are just internet geeks. BUt you know, you're not really gonna find a good internet site. This forum was good like 5 months ago . EF vs. KFM, geesh, pot calling kettle!:rolleyes:

[CaptinPickAxe]

These idiots are just internet geeks

Funny... You've been banned 3 almost 4 times now and you still show your rotten face... I'm thinking you spend more time on Kung Fu forums than actually training. Therefore, making you an internet geek...NOW TRAIN and quit shoveling the crap the only forum I enjoy.

[Buddy]

<<<forget how i phraised things by word- i really thing that what i'm trying to say is kind of said on this thread from www.yizongbagua.com>>>

Yizong bagua? Where I have I heard that from?

<<<especially since we are talking Gao and i happen to know some Gao Bagua,>>>

Really? From where?


<<<of course, everything is relative- it could even be that Xingyi and Bagua are so **** different from anything else i've done that i just dont see it as mangified yet to be able to distinguish between them.>>>

Now you're getting it :^)

------------

Back breaker, you too funny

[Big_Phat_Wong]

Hi Buddy,

best place to get Chinese spareribs & greens around here is Won Kok in L.A. Chinatown. Open 24/7, with a Dim Sum bar & banquet room in the back where Ark Wong & Share Lew used to give demos.

Still haven't seen the Pukulan tape, but I get paid next friday so I'll pick it up then. I hear there's a part on it where he spars three attackers while dancing a jig...now that I've got to see! :D


Take 'er easy,

~J