SNT

[S.Teebas]

Hey Gang,

I just ripped this off the WCML...thought you might find it interesting.

--------------------------------

According to Chu Shong Tin:

"*The basic moves of Siu Nim Tau is founded basing on the centre of gravity
of a person together with the principle of the centre line. The Tan Sau and
Fook Sau moves forward from one¹s centre point*. This is to use the centre
of gravity of a person to move forward thus concentrating the whole body
weight of the person to attack. Bong Sau, which is moving up from below, is
using the centre of gravity of the person moving slopingly forward and
upwards. Garn Sau and lower cut down is using the centre of gravity of the
person moving slopingly forward and downwards. For this reason, if one can
master the principle of the centre of gravity, the opponent has to tolerate
your attack with your whole body weight. This is the main idea of Siu Nim
Tau using the body weight in fighting.

The above is just the basic theory of Siu Nim Tau and does not consist of
any particular skill. *****Hence, if you practise Siu Nim Tau in accordance with the above theory and achieve the described level, you will be able to
tolerate heavy force and generate enormous power without exerting muscular
force. One cannot imagine this unless he has personally experienced it.***** In order to really know Siu Nim Tau and feel its power, one must practise Siu
Nim Tau repeatedly and persistently for a long period of time."

------------------------


S.Teebas

[Sharky]

Yea, lately i've really stepped up the amount of time i spend on 1st form.

Question: is it possible to be standing TOO deep? I sink, really low, as it's only the few minutes i spend doing the form. Really works lower thigs, and a few wierd knee joints/muscles. If i were to goto class i would stand in a higher stance so i could last the whole 2h or whatever without my legs getting the shakes!

It's just a training stance that i go so low, but is it possible to go TOO low? I don't go stupidly low, but still, when i used to goto class, i was far lower than everyone else that were barely bending their knees.

My anus is superior™

[Martial Joe]

"It's just a training stance that i go so low, but is it possible to go TOO low? "


Yeah you can go to low.If you are too low hen you cant fight off thaty postition as fast.Sink but not to low...

[Sihing73]

Hello,

I felt the need to make one comment regarding the question of a low stance in training. IMHO, there is a difference between training and fighting. In training one can put more stress on the body in order to prepare it for application. What I am getting at is that if one adopts a lower stance during training then one developes greater strength in the legs and this will have a nice carry over when one puts it into use. The only way one can go to low is, IMO, if one sacrifices structure. What I mean to say is that one adopts a certain structure in performing the stance. If you can maintain this structure and go very low then this is good training. Many arts, including Pakua will go for a low stance in training and then adopt a higher one in application. The benefits of the lower stance can give one great rewards when done properly. I even know people who have the dummy suspended lower in order to work the stance more while doing the form.

Besides, the lower you can get your center of gravity the more power you can produce. At least if your opponents cog is higher you will have an advantage ;) I know Leung Ting used to tell us you can't fight from a low stance then procede to fight from a low stance ;) The limitation is in your perception and your felexability in how you can apply the concepts and principles. If you can only see the limitations, or the don't dos' then you will find your Wing Chun, and life, very narrow in its application.

Just some rambles pay them no mind. :p

Peace,

Dave

[Anarcho]

The Spartans always trained with weights on their shields, didn't they? It worked pretty well for them.

Soup is good food.

[dzu]

The sinking of the stance is controlled by sinking the intention to the dan tien and relaxing so that gravity can then take affect. If everything is relaxed, the intention settles down, and the body is properly aligned, then the entire structure will sink down naturally. The ability to root, however, does not occur automatically just by sinking low. It is an acquired skill learned arduously over a long period of time under proper instruction with sound training methods.

The purpose of the sinking is to allow the student to train and develop the proper muscles throughout the entire body for alignment and stabilizing. It is not just to strengthen the legs. My line emphasizes a dynamic stance to receive and issue force so we are always expanding/rising or contracting/sinking the body, depending upon the force we are issuing or receiving.

In YKSWC, one of the reasons that they are taught to shift to 100/0 is that it requires one of the legs to always do work and therefore develop strength and stability in motion. The way I was taught, however, was to train at all extremes to develop the entire body. We even train SNT on one leg sometimes.

At a higher level of skill, one does not necessarily need to sink low all the time.

regards,

Dzu

[Icarus]

Oooh first post on the board.

I think the stance one adopts in SNT should be the very same stance used in fighting. It sounds odd, but it has good reasoning behind it.

Firstly, if you take the very first section of SNT it is about getting into stance, determining the center line, and then punching. The exact things one should do in a real fight. So the more comfortable you are in doing this, the more fluidily you can do this in a highly tense situation.

Secondly, the so called training stance IMO should really be the stance you adopt (if possible) in an actual fight. Now, I don'nt mean turing the toes inwards, bending the knees and so forth. What I mean is the sunken feeling that is generated from the clenching of the muscles around backside, and having the body squared up to the opponent. This allows you to change the direction and stance as and when required in reaction to the opponents energy exchange. If you are literally sunk too deep, this change is limited in its speed by the immovability of the knees.

WC trys to adopt a mid-ground between the light footed western boxing stances which give maximum movement and torqing abiltiy and the heavy, low set Kung-fu stance of many southern styles, which give maximum power in a punch but minimum movement.

Therefore one should practice the same way one wish's to fight. If one is'nt totally comfortable in their stance, one will never 'feel' the security it gives, and the power it has to offer. If you sink low in practice, you will sink low in the fight.

Just my two pence worth!

Matt

"Can you wait patiently until your mud settles, can you remain unmoving until the right action arises by itself."

[benny]

i have found that people that do the form and stance low all the time have a hard time with stepping as there legs are used to being so far apart.the reason you set your feet is so on instinct you naturaly go back to that distance.
but that is the extreme i do lots of low stances but doing slt i try to do it like i would fight. i do 1 1/2 hr forms (about 7min out)so its to long to be standing too low.
but i have found a use for the ratan ring. well mines made out of metal and i put it on my foot and do one legged forms.
oh if your leggs arent shaking then you are not straining hard enough or yo dont do it long enough

[Sihing73]

Hello All,

If one trains with a low stance then one should not fight from a low stance. Like everything else one must develope balance. I may wish to train low in order to push myself to the limits of movement and aide my leg strength. However, this must also be balanced by the practice of moving in a natural stance. I can assure you that if you obtain the balance you will find your mobility increasing not decreasing. ;) Just look at everal other styles and you will see the truth in this. Pakua is one of my favorites as some fo the principles seem complimentary to Wing Chun. Lower stance training will also increase ones felxibility, especially in the ankles, which will also enable one to move more rapidly and fluidly.

Some things are meant as training exercises and I look on low stance work just like any other type of resistence exercise. It is a matter of progression. You keep pushing yourself so that you will have the benefits when you are not pushing yourself. Think of it like a weight lifter, he will lisft heavier and heavier weights in order to build his strength. However, he will not exert the same amount of force in his daily life as when training. Yet, he will be able to exert more force due to his training. Hope that made sense :)

Single leg stance training and SNT are an integral part of Wing Chun and the benefits are not simply increased leg strenght. One also developes balance and an awareness of the body. When one exerts energy while on one leg there are subtle changes in the bodies position which you must balance, there's that word again ;)

DZU, I agree that ones stance, regardless of postion, high, low whatever, should be dynamic. The knees should be bent and the entire body relaxed. The type of power used is hard to describe but one can feel it. Even when doing the SNT ones body and stance will not be static. There will be subtle changes throughout the form as one exerts energy with the various techniques. Thus, even when standing still one is in constant movement. One of the most common mistakes people make is to try and resist an opponents force using muscles. Instead one must learn to sink and relax and let the energy pass through you. When you have your body linked then you will be able to support more weight then if ou rely on strength alone. Still, it is the ground in addition to your structure that supports the weight ;)

Peace,

Dave

[Chum Kil]

"It's just a training stance that i go so low, but is it possible to go TOO low"?

Yes. The knees should not go beyond the toes. As you get older you will know what I mean.

John

Have little and gain;
Have much and be confused.

[Gluteus Maximus]

G'day,

Lots of interesting points there everyone. Dave and Dzu, I always look forward to reading your posts (and Watchman's). You all articulate your insights and observations very well.

Benny, when you say "i do 1 1/2 hr forms (about 7min out)", do you mean it takes 1 1/2 hours to do the SNT form, with each tan/fook/wu of the first section taking 7 minutes?

Check out this other article by the great Tsui Seung Tin, about Siu Nim Tao. No wonder he's called "the King of Siu Nim Tao". This is one of the most important things I've ever read about Wing Chun. Does anyone know if this has been translated from Tsui Seung Tin's book ("Treasured Text of Wing Chun")? I'd love to read that book one day but as far as I know it's only been released in Chinese so far.

http://www.tstvingtsun.bc.ca/HiddenPowerOfSNT_remix.html

Max

"The force can be envisaged as cone-shaped". Tsui Seung Tin

[S.Teebas]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Hence, if you practise Siu Nim Tau in accordance with the above theory and achieve the described level, you will be able to
tolerate heavy force and generate enormous power without exerting muscular
force [/quote]

This is a message for those of you who believe in using weights etc to improve your WC. I think the most valuable time you can invest in improving your WC is do WC!

For anyone in Oz interested....Tsui Seung Tin is coming to sydney in September to conduct some seminars. Any linage is welcome i believe.


S.Teebas