Non- Kicking Martial Arts

[Judge Pen]

My most recent knee sprain has me thinking: What MA would I want to learn if I could no longer kick (or anything else with a chance of torque on the knee)? Boxing would be interesting and Xingyi (focus on 5 elements not animals b/c of more leg/knee involvement). Any internal, but it's difficult to find a good internal teacher in my area that would focus on just internal AND the fighting applications of it. Also some southern styles come to mind with their minimialistic leg techniques.

What do you guys think? What MA would you prefer if you couldn't really kick or torque the knees?

[MasterKiller]

Judo!

[Starchaser107]

Iado

[Judge Pen]

:D Ok, let me clarify. I would want a more complete art, with strikes, throws and locks, but one that minimizes chance of injury to the knee. Sitting on my knees and drawing a katana is a beautiful art, but I would want somthing that I could apply in defense situations.

[ShaolinTiger00]

What MA would you prefer if you couldn't really kick or torque the knees?

lol @ the answer judo for this problem. While MK's intent was that judo doesn't have kicks. Judo is BRUTAL on the knees. Think about it. - the whole concept is to take a person off their feet as quickly as possible. I do not know a person who has done judo at a high level who has not had at least one major knee surgery. In fact I just had arthroscopic surgery for a torn lateral meniscus last week. Pulling, twisting, blocking, cutting,

Now BJJ on the other hand is an excellent art for someone with knee problems.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by ShaolinTiger00
lol @ the answer judo for this problem. While MK's intent was that judo doesn't have kicks. Judo is BRUTAL on the knees. Think about it. - the whole concept is to take a person off their feet as quickly as possible. I do not know a person who has done judo at a high level who has not had at least one major knee surgery. In fact I just had arthroscopic surgery for a torn lateral meniscus last week. Pulling, twisting, blocking, cutting, That sucks. I figured lots of back pain, broken toes, and shoulder dislocations, but didn't think about knees.

I change my answer to Kung Fu. Who says you have to kick?

[Starchaser107]

while it is more than likely there are a few good martial art systems out there that may not be rough on the knees in practice
if you're gonna end up in a fight of some sort, theres always the risk of that shot someone might take to that area.

i dunno...how about wing chun?

[rogue]

Okinawan Karate or real old school Shotokan. Kicks are just tools. I can no longer kick high but I can still use my legs for low kicks, stomps, sweeps, knees, blocks. Nice thing about some of the older arts is they give you a nice selection of tools to pick from.

[sean_stonehart]

Choy Lee Fut!!!

:D

[Tak]

western boxing?

[Water Dragon]

Originally posted by ShaolinTiger00

Now BJJ on the other hand is an excellent art for someone with knee problems.

Yeah, except for the whole breaking knee thing they got going on.

[Brad]

I had knee surgery a few years ago and still have problems. Bagua Zhang and Sun Taiji Quan were probably easiest on my knees at that time. I actually had trouble with Wu, Yang, and Chen Taiji.

[red5angel]

well everyone knows kicking doesn't work anyway. I mean kicks are telegraphed too much, and waaaaay to slow to actually use in reality.

[Starchaser107]

Yang can give your knees a serious workout.

[Meat Shake]

Any internal style supplemented with western boxing would be the best bet IMHO.

[ShaolinTiger00]

I figured lots of back pain, broken toes, and shoulder dislocations,

plenty of those too. Seriously in all my years of wrestling and kickboxing I've never seen the nasty or numerous injuries as in judo. nothing gentle about the gentle art.. to quote the Donn Draeger judo is "the great crippler"




Yeah, except for the whole breaking knee thing they got going on.

Knee bars are only done at the higher level and every competent instructor I know demands that when someone is learning knee bars that they are paired up with an experienced partner. I'd wager that shoulder & ankle injuries are much more common and even they are usually the result of negligence in safety among new students (or those at high level competitiors who stubbornly deny a submission.)

[Water Dragon]

I don't know man, My knees act up a lot more than they used to know that I'm doing BJJ again.

Of course my CMA teachers never had me trying to fight out of some super low goofy stance.

I think if we're discussing blown out knees, something like Boxing or even Muay Thai would be the way to go. They just don't seem to stress the knes as much as the grappling arts.

[Meat Shake]

Big problem with ankles is that you hear the pop before you feel the pain, so beginners or stubborn dont wanna tappers will wind up with a broken ankle before they know it... *POP* "Was that my ankle?"
Then a few seconds later you know it was your ankle...

I had bad knees, and shuai chiao mixed with weight lifting actually made my knees hella stronger. I dont even have to wear a knee brace anymore.

[ShaolinTiger00]

yeah that's the danger of heelhooks and knee bars. you go from "fine.. resisting.. no pain.. SNAP oh ****! something tore!"

ex. when I tore my lat meniscus, it made a huge sound (the entire class just stopped and looked at me) but it didn't hurt at all, but my adrenaline kicked in and I knew something was wrong.. 20 minutes later the swelling and the pain set in.. goodtimes..

I think boxing is very low impact. although you'll do alot of twisting and torquing if you've got decent enough stabilty for kungfu you should be fine.

[FatherDog]

Originally posted by ShaolinTiger00
yeah that's the danger of heelhooks and knee bars. you go from "fine.. resisting.. no pain.. SNAP oh ****! something tore!"


I'd agree with heel hooks, but I've never found that to be the case with knee bars - just like arm bars, you feel the pain before the damage.

[Volcano Admim]

i disagree about bjj being knee-problem free
there is info of peeps hurting their knees both on amateur and professional while doing bjj and not from knee locks

xing yi will use your knees... almost like fencing would, know wat im saying? several times ive had knee pains, course they would show up 1 day after trainin and on the next theyd be gone, but for someone with knee problem i think it could potentially be bad maybe.
i dunno if boxing and MT would be ok though, dunno about those

[Water Dragon]

If we want to be truthful, knee injuries are just a fact of life in ANY high impact activity. Martial Arts, Basketball, Football, etc. all have their share of enthusiasts with knee problems. Deal with it or don't play, I guess.

[Vash]

Indeed. How's about the aforementied Hsing-Ie of SD?

[mickey]

Greetings,

All martial arts will stress the knee to some degree. Try strengthening and stabilizing your knees; this is a must regardless of the discipline you choose.

There is one discipline that does not stress the knees: GUNS!!
Guns have direct application to street situations.

mickey

[trilobite]

Hung Gar, mayhaps?

[Tiger_Yin]

wow all these answered sucked bad.. not ONE person makes mention of aikido? Besides the traditional seiza at begining and end of classes u hardly use ur knees and i thnk is has 0 kicks since its the only MA that doesnt have atemi at all...

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by ShaolinTiger00
plenty of those too. Seriously in all my years of wrestling and kickboxing I've never seen the nasty or numerous injuries as in judo.

If you didn't see a ton of injuries in wrestling, you were not paying attention!

[Mr Punch]

Whoever said "iado" they not only can't spell iaido but also has no knowledge of same. The first three kata, which are essential for learning distancing, timing, and the connections between your hips and the rest of your body, not to mention building up the essential thigh muscles, all start on the knees and hurt like hell if you have any knee problems.

Tiger-Yin said aikido, forgetting shiyo (knee walking), hanmihandachi waza (one kneeling, one standing) and suwari waza (kneeling techniques), plus constantly dropping, getting thrown and getting up again in the pins and finishes. Plus the sweep in shiho nage and the sweep/hip slam in tenchi nage and irimi nage put a lot of stress on the knees while you are learning. And incidentally, a good aiki school will have atemi though you are right in saying most don't learn any kicks.

Yang style taichi helped me a lot when my knees were ****ed (through aikido and falling out of a tree) in building up my leg muscles relaxedly.

Wing chun's odd pigeon toed stance also strenghthens your thigh muscles and the muscle tissue around your knees a lot and the kicking techniques it involves are relatively easy on the joints.

Boxing's good.

My hsing i type class involves a lot of excruciating deep stances which probably aren't so good for your knees.

Shoot/sub wrestling's good except for the actual shoot.

I have no other experience that will help you.

[FatherDog]

Originally posted by unkokusai
If you didn't see a ton of injuries in wrestling, you were not paying attention!

In all fairness, he didn't say that there weren't a ton of injuries in wrestling - just that there were a ton more in judo.

[Becca]

Originally posted by Tiger_Yin
wow all these answered sucked bad.. not ONE person makes mention of aikido? Besides the traditional seiza at begining and end of classes u hardly use ur knees and i thnk is has 0 kicks since its the only MA that doesnt have atemi at all...
... Mat beet me to it. Aikido is a grappling art, for the most part. I have never seen a grappling art that didn't torq the heck out of the lower body.

And trilobite's suggestion of Hung Gar is hillarious. The new student focuses on extreme low horse stance for the first 6 months or so. That'd kill a person just recovering from a knee injury.

A friend of mine destroyed her knee last March. She's been working with a very good sports injury theripist and is already running on it, though it has only been about 8 weeks since her last surgury. Perhaps you would do better to stick with your current art and work your way through the pain. The rehab will likely be shorter since you won't be trying to learn a new art as well as learning your body's new limitations.

[rogue]

its the only MA that doesnt have atemi at all... Wow, then what did that Aikidoka hit me with?

[ShaolinTiger00]

In all fairness, he didn't say that there weren't a ton of injuries in wrestling - just that there were a ton more in judo.

You are correct FatherDog. fwiw, I wrestled kindergarten thru college. I've seen alot of wrestling.

[fa_jing]

Ride a bicycle.

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by FatherDog
In all fairness, he didn't say that there weren't a ton of injuries in wrestling - just that there were a ton more in judo.

All right, not to split hairs (which means of course that I shall) but "Seriously in all my years of wrestling and kickboxing I've never seen the nasty or numerous injuries as in judo.", would seem to imply that there are not numerous or nasty injuries in wrestling or kickboxing. I get the point, but I believe there was some hyberpole involved.

[Yum Cha]

Face it Judge, you're rooted.

Hari Kiri is pretty quick to learn, and doesn't involve much practice....

Seriously, all the kicking arts require, well, you know.

The arts like Wing Chun, Pak Mei, Hung Gar, all require solid horse stances that put strain on the knees through stance.

Wrestling and Judo, ju-jitsu, require the body torque that transfers energy through the knees...

So, I would say, train your knee back up using physio, and then just do what you love the best you can. You'd be surprised what you can come back from.

[Christopher M]

Originally posted by Tiger_Yin
[aikido is] the only MA that doesnt have atemi at all

Aikido has atemi. In fact, Kenji Tomiki claims (http://homepage2.nifty.com/shodokan/en/kyogi1.html) that a training methadology for atemi is one of the characteristic elements of aikido.

On the other hand, there are plenty of other martial arts with no atemi. The japanese-brazillian and euro-american grappling traditions come to mind, not to mention many weapon-based martial arts.

[Judge Pen]

The knee is getting better, but I'm probably going to have an MRI on it to make sure. The stance work doesn't bother my knee as much as the kicking and more dynamc moves so that's something to consider.

[BentMonk]

Originally posted by MasterKiller

I change my answer to Kung Fu. Who says you have to kick?

I have acheived moderate success in my MA training, despite my total inability to kick. I get slaughtered routinely by those skilled with their feet though. Most of my vulnerability is due to lack of balance, rather than solely the absence of kicking. Aikido, and Judo were not options because I have NO base what so ever. My only prayer in a real fight is to get the first shot, and make it count for everything. I will live or die by my punch. I'm focusing on Hsing I and hoping to add some boxing and grappling if the training opportunities present themselves. Hopefully I can hone one or two things well enough to save my ass if ever the need arises. Of course to do that I've got to get said ass to class and train. Grrr...I've been away MUCH longer than I would like. :mad:

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Water Dragon
Yeah, except for the whole breaking knee thing they got going on.

that's what tapping is for. In judo, you have all of the pulling and sudden turning, throws that may block the knee instead of below it, like tai otoshi, etc. It's extremely rough on the the knees.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Tiger_Yin
wow all these answered sucked bad.. not ONE person makes mention of aikido? Besides the traditional seiza at begining and end of classes u hardly use ur knees and i thnk is has 0 kicks since its the only MA that doesnt have atemi at all...

I'm sure he wants a MA that he'll actually be able to use... :D

[Yum Cha]

Hey JP,
If the knee holds up to stance training, lots of southern styles don't revolve around kicking, while they do have some low kicks which may work for you nevertheless. The point being that most of the work is accomplished by the hands, working from a solid platform built from the hips down through solid stance work.

My knees have seen better days as well, but I find the isometric exercise you get with stance training is easy to moderate when enough is enough, yet you can build strength in a low-impact manner. Stronger muscles support weak or worn out joints nicely. Besides, lots of southern styles use bridge fighting techniques, so you can hang off your opponent while you work your magic....

Glad to hear its not such a disabilitating injury.

Bent Monk - as your avitar indicates a wheel chair, am I right in assuming you use one? Would you be able to get a hold on your opponent, then use your upper body strength to your advantage in a grappling/striking manner?

[yenhoi]

Panantukan is Filipino Dirty Boxing, and has only a small amount of lower body stuff besides footwork. I should mention blade methods again too.

Why would you have to change "arts" tho? Just dont kick anymore.

;)

[BentMonk]

Yum Cha - No I don't use a chair. The avatar is the logo for a disabled MA program I have started. Upper body strength, grabbing and striking are the core of what I do though.

JP - You can walk like me if you want...I don't mind. :D

[Judge Pen]

Thanks Paul. :D

[Meat Shake]

Just on hearsay....
Shaolin-Do had a sanshou seminar in austin eh? And is trying to implement "san shou" into some of the schools, but has no interest in using gloves besides the foam dipped rubber, and no interest in competing in outside venues....
Heh...
Anyway...

What exactly did you do to your knee jp? I had a really really messed up left knee for about a year, just about 4 months ago I was finally able to train without my knee brace. I just did a lot of stance work... Helped strengthen the tendons and ligaments again. Lots of one legged knee bends and lunges also...